Forza Motorsport 2 - Turn 10 Studios - 360

[Azazel]

I'm not, nor do I have any reason in the slightest to take anything personal. I don't even own the game. I said that in my first post here. A post that started with "lol" at that -- all of which are not the words of a man getting defensive about a beloved game, I must say.

But this is.

Eh, OK. Fair enough. Still though, that F13 is seemingly one of the sites with a bad rating on Forza 2 makes me a  . Meta-critic or not. Official statement or not.

Let's give it a rest now, eh?

[stray]

I know you don't hate racing games. But arcade and sim are different enough to be seperated into their own categories.

As for Forza's arcade mode, that IS a fair point -- but are you limiting your review to that? I really can't tell. Nor can I understand why you'd want to.

[Yegolev]

I submit you are not getting the basic point of this system, Stray, and I do mean "basic" since it's meant to be simple and to-the-point.  You want a traditional review, if I read your text properly.  These impressions are not reviews, not in the normal game-journalism use of that word.  Furthermore, BiiF fixes some basic flaws in the review system.  One being that it's not an Official F13 Rating, but a single gamer's opinion of fun value.  Furthermore, his bias against the genre is clearly shown and conclusions may be drawn from that combined with the impression itself.  If there was any obfuscation, I'd say this wasn't a good writeup but everything is very clear and easy to use as reference material.  I'd probably even say Az's post can be used as a template.

Debates about the merits of the BiiF system can be taken to another thread, if they must continue.  If, instead, you want to post "OMFG FM2 RULEZ N U SUX U FAG" then this is the thread to do so.

[stray]

OK, then this section is pretty pointless for me then. My bad! Seriously.

Yes, I want more balanced reviews. Not impressions from just anyone -- which is why you'll never find me, for instance, actually giving a review of WoW (despite me jokingly saying I would). It wouldn't be fair, or even the least bit illuminating for mmo players.

[Azazel]

I know you don't hate racing games. But arcade and sim are different enough to be seperated into their own categories.

As for Forza's arcade mode, that IS a fair point -- but are you limiting your review to that? I really can't tell. Nor can I understand why you'd want to.

I'll explain. As I've now said once or twice, I'm not a detailed racing sim gamer. So since I own this game, I thought I'd try to see if there was any fun in it for the simpler arcade raging gamer. Since "Arcade" mode is likely to be much friendlier to my kind than "season" or whatever it's called, I started there. If I enjoyed it and found it easy enough to get into, I'd have progressed from there. Since the first race was unfun and easy, and subsequent races on different trracks with different styles of car were like the game was repeatedly hitting my nuts with a hammer with the handling and such, I did not progress to the more "realistic" modes of racing.

These are capsule first-impression reviews. As per schild's decree: "please keep under 400 words". Arcade mode is as far as I managed to get since if I was getting my nuts smacked in idiot mode, I can only imagine the pain it would have inflicted on me in a mode advanced mode... I didn't try online for the same reason. Based on my experience of the gameplay, what I would have written there surely would have been: "I am shit at this game and got pwned by the bunch of randoms that I was thrown into the race with."


As for illuminating and fair - if you're a Gran Turismo kinda guy, then I am sure this game is probably the Bee's Knees. Not being that guy myself, I can't say with 100% certainty, but that's my best guess. Which I did mention. If you're like me, arcade-racing-centric, and you thought Forza might be a bit of easily accessable fun, then you now have a warning that it's not so. I don't think I could be any clearer about my own perspective.

[Margalis]

The review is very helpful. I like games like F-Zero but not so much GT. Now I know that I probably won't like Forza. Mission accomplished.

"Objective" reviews are pure shit. It's much better for the reviewer to state where they are coming from up front, especially in reviews of purely subjective experiences. It's not supposed to be definitive and no single review *can* be definitive. Nothing prevents another person from reviewing the same game either.

Any review is a combination of what the reviewer thought and who the reviewer is. Both were stated clearly.

[stray]

Fair enough. You can write what you want. I misunderstood the rules.

All of that stuff about it not being a good arcade racing game though pretty much goes without mentioning. This game was meant from the get go to be a competitor to GT on the Xbox. Nothing more. I thought that it was well known that it's a sim. I wouldn't call it a good arcade game either! The "Arcade" mode is misleading, I admit, but it's not meant to signify arcade-y gameplay. It's just for exhibition races (as opposed to Career mode). Some sports games use the same terminology to signify single game matchups (as opposed to playing an entire Season or Franchise) -- it's not something that magically transforms NBA Live into a session of NBA Jam.


P.S. I never used the word "objective". I just said "fair". And judging a game for what it isn't even marketed as isn't being fair. I mean, at the very least, if we can't have that, then this review section is worthless (I speak only for myself, of course).

Thanks for listening 

P.P.S. Sky should review some console games.

[Azazel]

Fair enough. You can write what you want. I misunderstood the rules.

All of that stuff about it not being a good arcade racing game though pretty much goes without mentioning. This game was meant from the get go to be a competitor to GT on the Xbox. Nothing more. I thought that it was well known that it's a sim. I wouldn't call it a good arcade game either! The "Arcade" mode is misleading, I admit, but it's not meant to signify arcade-y gameplay. It's just for exhibition races (as opposed to Career mode). Some sports games use the same terminology to signify single game matchups (as opposed to playing an entire Season or Franchise) -- it's not something that magically transforms NBA Live into a session of NBA Jam.


P.S. I never used the word "objective". I just said "fair". And judging a game for what it isn't even marketed as isn't being fair. I mean, at the very least, if we can't have that, then this review section is worthless (I speak only for myself, of course).

Thanks for listening 

This will by my last post in reply to Stray's endless crys of me being unfair.

If you're still failing to comprehend a clearly-made point about my perspective after this many posts, then I don't think you're ever going to understand.
(If they don't mean "Arcade" by "Arcade" perhaps they're using the wrong term?)

Until a month ago I didn't have a 360. To that effect, knowing which games on the 360 were aimed at whom exactly was not of much interest to me. I'm not sure what the latest and greatest games on PS3 are right now, either, aside from that adventure game. It'll become relevent to me at some stage later when I am about to get a PS3, but don't expect me to then suddenly know all about some game that was released in the middle of 2007, either.

My snapshot review doesn't mean Forza is an emperically shit game. I don't say the game is shit for all players. I don't say it's a bad game. I say that if you like arcade-style racers but not sims you should Stay Away.


You can have a witty rejoinder for the last word now, because I'm done explaining myself to you endlessly.
(and to touch on your earlier post, this thread only beats the Rock Band thread's post numbers because of the silly argument we've been having back and forth.)

 

[Roac]

"Objective" reviews are pure shit. It's much better for the reviewer to state where they are coming from up front, especially in reviews of purely subjective experiences. It's not supposed to be definitive and no single review *can* be definitive. Nothing prevents another person from reviewing the same game either.

Not looking for either an objective or definitive view.  Not looking for a comprehensive review in a 400 word post.  Nor do I really care what Az's oppinion is, since if anything, he was kinder than I would've been.  I'm looking for reviewers who like the type of game they're reviewing, so that if they don't like this specific one, it has some backing worth considering.  What I got from this review was:

1) He doesn't like the genre.
2) He plays badly at the genre.
3) This contributed to him not wanting to even play it for a month.
4) He played stupideasy mode, and got bored.
5) He played badly at other parts of the game that weren't stupideasy mode.
6) Oh, it has some "arcade" mode that wasn't the focus of the game to begin with, and wasn't all that great anyway.
7) He didn't like the game.

I am certain my own view will mirror that exactly.  But, I know I don't like racing sims, so I'm not going to even try a game that is as far as I know a racing sim.  Thumbs down is a foregone conclusion.  The oppinion is entirely valid, it's the validity of the process that I'm questioning.  I would hope that nobody would avoid this game if I suggested they do so, because I know I'm biased against it to begin with.  If, on the other hand, I thumbs down Red Steel (and I do), I think that carries more weight as it's a genre I like, a game I expected to like, and a platform I enjoy.  

[Azazel]

Not looking for either an objective or definitive view.  Not looking for a comprehensive review in a 400 word post.  Nor do I really care what Az's oppinion is, since if anything, he was kinder than I would've been.  I'm looking for reviewers who like the type of game they're reviewing, so that if they don't like this specific one, it has some backing worth considering.  What I got from this review was:

1) He doesn't like the genre.
2) He plays badly at the genre.
3) This contributed to him not wanting to even play it for a month.
4) He played stupideasy mode, and got bored.
5) He played badly at other parts of the game that weren't stupideasy mode.
6) Oh, it has some "arcade" mode that wasn't the focus of the game to begin with, and wasn't all that great anyway.
7) He didn't like the game.

I am certain my own view will mirror that exactly.  But, I know I don't like racing sims, so I'm not going to even try a game that is as far as I know a racing sim.  Thumbs down is a foregone conclusion.  The oppinion is entirely valid, it's the validity of the process that I'm questioning.  I would hope that nobody would avoid this game if I suggested they do so, because I know I'm biased against it to begin with.  If, on the other hand, I thumbs down Red Steel (and I do), I think that carries more weight as it's a genre I like, a game I expected to like, and a platform I enjoy.  

Just quickly.
1) and 2): Sure, no problem. As long as we're looking at it as "realistic" car sims as opposed to "jump on and play" arcade racers.
3) A month? Que? These capsules are supposed to be a couple of hours impression, tops.
4) Yep.
5) The other parts were slightly-more-advances sections of the Arcade mode, which I'd have thought would be if not as easy, at least accessable.
6) Arcade mode has a point to the game. You unlock lots of cars there, so I assume it's a relevent part of the game, but I expected it to be the most accessable part. The "jump on and play" section, so to speak.
7) Correct.

To repeat one more time, I open with this:

Ever read a review written by someone who's not normally a fan of the genre, but is won over by a specific game? This is not quite that review.

As I make plain my biases at the very start, I doubt the review is going to make a firm fan of the genre avoid the game, but it holds relevence for others who have a similar bent towards car games as myself.
If I'd not loved the genre but it turned out that I loved the game, (as Rasix has) would that have suddenly made my review palatable or more relevant?

[stray]

Arcade mode is a "jump on and play" mode. "Jump on and play this sim racing game", that is. It's not meant to change the nature of everything. Still the same game mechanics. It's just meant to take you to the action without worrying about winning cash, tuning your car, worrying about permanent damage, winning series of tournaments, and that sort of thing. Relatively speaking, it's a very casual experience.

[Nija]

This is like someone who only likes Afterburner trying to review Falcon 4.

100% worthless. Next.

[Rasix]

If I'd not loved the genre but it turned out that I loved the game, (as Rasix has) would that have suddenly made my review palatable or more relevant?

I stepped outside of my comfort zone (admittedly, my zone was a bit larger), you really didn't here.  Of course, how you come upon your viewpoint is really irrelevant for this framework. 

Would have been more interesting to me if you had dove into the sim portion of the game.  Reviewing just the arcade potion of the game is a bit silly.  Again though, framework. 

[Velorath]

Not looking for either an objective or definitive view.  Not looking for a comprehensive review in a 400 word post.  Nor do I really care what Az's oppinion is, since if anything, he was kinder than I would've been.  I'm looking for reviewers who like the type of game they're reviewing, so that if they don't like this specific one, it has some backing worth considering.

That's nice, but this forum wasn't made to just give you the type of review you in particular are looking for, so there's no need to piss on reviews that don't fit your criteria.  There are very few genres that I get really hardcore into, so I appreciate reviews from a casual player's perspective.  I'd rather read a review of a fighting game from someone other than Hammer Frenzy for instance, because he's going to be looking at things from a completely different perspective than most of us.  I'm not a huge fan of fighting games, but there have been some that I've really been able to get into.  People here seem to mistake "not a fan of the genre", for "I hate games like this".

It seems pretty pointless to me in a way for racing sim reviews to only be written by hardcore racing sim fans for other hardcore racing sim fans to read.  Fuck that circle-jerk.

[Roac]

3) A month? Que? These capsules are supposed to be a couple of hours impression, tops.

You stated you owned the game for a month before playing it, which doesn't suggest you were looking forward to it.  It wasn't my intention to suggest you should have played it for a month.

[Roac]

That's nice, but this forum wasn't made to just give you the type of review you in particular are looking for, so there's no need to piss on reviews that don't fit your criteria. 

Yes, this review format fits what I'm looking for just fine.  Play for a few hours, 400 words.  Buy, rent, avoid.  That's peachy; what doesn't work is going in with a bad mindset, which has nothing to do with the overall format.

It seems pretty pointless to me in a way for racing sim reviews to only be written by hardcore racing sim fans for other hardcore racing sim fans to read.  Fuck that circle-jerk.

Doesn't need to be a "hardcore" racing sim lover, just someone who enjoys racing sims and has played (and enjoyed) several so that they have some level of positive experience to draw from.  If you really want to push it and call such a person hardcore I guess that's fine, but then we'd all be hardcore.

[schild]

3) A month? Que? These capsules are supposed to be a couple of hours impression, tops.

You stated you owned the game for a month before playing it, which doesn't suggest you were looking forward to it.  It wasn't my intention to suggest you should have played it for a month.

I have games I've owned for a year that I'm still looking forward to.

Also, guys, the review fit the format. I'm not seeing the big deal. It seems like someone just got a case of the crazies. People are going off on Azazel worse than when I said 'meh, mario galaxy, just another 3D mario.'

[Azazel]

You stated you owned the game for a month before playing it, which doesn't suggest you were looking forward to it.  It wasn't my intention to suggest you should have played it for a month.

Oh, nothing like that at all. I bought up a bunch of games for the 360 when I got it and over the weeks since, but barely had a chance to look at more than about 4 of them before less than a week ago, since the last 2 months of work has been crazy dayz. For example, I still have 8 games I still haven't even opened including Assassin's Creed, Crackdown, Saints Row, Just Cause, Fight Night, etc etc. I've played several of the ones I have opened for very short amounts of time as well. Like <10mins. I hope to rectify this now that I have a few weeks off work and the family committments of Christmas week are done with. Seeing schild's post, I probably also have 20+ PC games I haven't yet played from the last couple of years. Some of which I'll probably never get around to playing.. 

Doesn't need to be a "hardcore" racing sim lover, just someone who enjoys racing sims and has played (and enjoyed) several so that they have some level of positive experience to draw from.  If you really want to push it and call such a person hardcore I guess that's fine, but then we'd all be hardcore.

As I've said, I went in hoping for a fun, accessable racing game for me/people like me. I didn't get that.
I was also honestly unaware that it was quite the full-on detailed racing sim, since as I've said, it was a pack-in and I really didn't bother following the 360 games catalogue in huge detail before buying the machine. This is why I was hoping for a more arcadey and looser experience from the "Arcade" mode. (I was going to get the one without the HDD and buy the 120gig one seperately, but since by all reports on f13 the 20gig is enough for most normal humans and the pack I got was discounted by au$80 for a few days I took the plunge. In Australia, and possibly Europe, you get FM2 and Viva Pinata as the packins (in the US, I believe it's VP and Marvel: UA as the packins).

Honestly though, I don't feel a need to have posted all of the above as an extra paragraph of qualifiers in the body of the review.
It was a matter of: open game, pop it in and load it up, play for awhile,  , and finish. Write BiiF review on f13 before going to sleep, check the board in the morning to find 21 posts in the thread and spend the day alt-tabbing occasionally to continue argiung on the internet with Stray.

[Yegolev]

It was a matter of: open game, pop it in and load it up, play for awhile,  , and finish. Write BiiF review on f13 before going to sleep, check the board in the morning to find 21 posts in the thread and spend the day alt-tabbing occasionally to continue argiung on the internet with Stray.

Just add a "Stay Away" to the end of that and you'll have a BiiF-format impression of this thread.  You're on a roll, dude. 

[Sky]

Just add a "Stray Away" to the end of that and you'll have a BiiF-format impression of this thread.  You're on a roll, dude. 

FIFY 

[Valmorian]

If I'd not loved the genre but it turned out that I loved the game, (as Rasix has) would that have suddenly made my review palatable or more relevant?

Well, yes, since then it would have been unusual.  As it stands, it's "Person who doesn't really like sim racing games doesn't like this sim racing game".

Don't get me wrong, I'm not ragging on you here, but I'm a bit surprised you would even ask the question above.  It seems like a no-brainer to answer it in the affirmative.

[Tebonas]

So, which would be the right racing game on the Xbox360 for people like Azazel?

Be a rainbow not a painbow, people!

[schild]

Wipeout HD for the PS3 is what he wants.

[MisterNoisy]

If you're looking for arcade racers:

Project Gotham 3 & 4 (though I didn't care for the motorcycles in 4) are good fun, highly accessible and look very nice.

Need For Speed:  Most Wanted wasn't bad at all, though I could have really done without the characters and 'story'

DiRT is a solid rally-racing title

I think all but PGR4 can be had pretty cheaply (~$20 used)

[Rasix]

Wipeout HD for the PS3 is what he wants.

OK, I loled. Does he even have a PS3?  You could lend him one of yours.

[Tebonas]

Our local store has PGR3 for 20 and PGR4 for 60. Is PGR4 really three times as good as 3?

[MisterNoisy]

Our local store has PGR3 for 20 and PGR4 for 60. Is PGR4 really three times as good as 3?

Not really - it adds motorcycles and weather effects and to my eyes looks a bit better, but PGR3 was a pretty good-looking game as it was, especially considering that it was a launch title.  I also didn't really care for the 'racing season' structure of the game, preferring PGR3's 'pick any race/class/car and go' approach, but that wasn't a dealbreaker.

[sidereal]

I'm more of an arcadey racing guy myself and was a pretty big fan of the Midnight Clubs (at least 1 and 2.  Never played 3 because it was subtitled 'DUB Edition'.  I don't need psychedelic reggae with my racing, thanks).  Midnight Club: Los Angeles is coming out for PS3 and 360 sometime this year.

I actually don't mind realistic racing sims, but it's definitely a different mindset.  Finding a cpu 'turn-buddy' to press against while you take a corner too tight is standard fare in an arcade game, but should be a fatal crash in anything realistic, which is more about finding optimal lines.  I think of realistic racers as puzzle games and arcade racers as twitch.

[Azazel]

Wipeout HD for the PS3 is what he wants.

Actually, I never really got into the Wipeout games for some reason. Or F-Zero for that matter.


I've got PGR3 and enjoyed the first one on the original X-Box a reasonable amount, though I didn't get very far. I've only put about 5 minutes play into PGR3 so far, so I may pick it up again and BiiF it in the next week or so. Downloaded the demos for DiRT and Sega Rally but they're not quite my type (though I felt DiRT looked amazing).

No PS3. High price (AU$1000 for the original, the only one worth having in this country - thats close enough to US$900) and not many games, followed up by discontinuing the decent one and removing BC totally in Australia makes it almost a never-buy. Shame, since I really like my PS2 and wanted to like the PS3. Sure I still have my PS2 but the lack of BC and upscaling for my substantial PS2 library really is a big deal since I have gotten my HDTV. Once they're sub-$400 here with decent pack-ins I'll consider it. But that's more than a year away at minimum. I could have imported one from the US, but what's the use of a Blu-Ray player that won't play my local Blu-Ray discs.

bah. /rant off.

[Mosesandstick]

I'm more of an arcadey racing guy myself and was a pretty big fan of the Midnight Clubs (at least 1 and 2.  Never played 3 because it was subtitled 'DUB Edition'.  I don't need psychedelic reggae with my racing, thanks).  Midnight Club: Los Angeles is coming out for PS3 and 360 sometime this year.

I actually don't mind realistic racing sims, but it's definitely a different mindset.  Finding a cpu 'turn-buddy' to press against while you take a corner too tight is standard fare in an arcade game, but should be a fatal crash in anything realistic, which is more about finding optimal lines.  I think of realistic racers as puzzle games and arcade racers as twitch.

A competitive simulation racer can involve a lot of twitch gaming =P. Just in a different way to an arcade racer. Though you are definitely right in thinking it can be like a puzzle game at points, break here, turn, accelerate out. Whee.