WAR - another newsletter - more RvR, less sport PvP

[Johny Cee]

I actually think a mentoring/deleveling process would be detrimental to low-level PvP:

The major factor in success is going to be:

1. Min-maxed level and gear.
2. Group makeup.  You need the right mix of classes and players playing the right roles.
3. Skill, coordination, and experience playing with the other folks in your group.

If just by stepping into a lower tier zone,  my group only delevels to the appropriate max level?  We're going to own any "real" noob/lowbie out there pvping because my group is balanced and used to working together. 

It just doesn't matter that the level/gear disparaty is reduced if the other team is a PUG,  or can't find a healer.  We'll whip them every day of the week.

Forcing higher levels out of low level PvP is a necessary means of issolating those at the top of the food chain from the people just learning the ropes.  Make it easy for the sharks to pop in and whomp the noobs,  and it will murder any real chance of fun lower level PvP.

And all that is different from the same group making a bunch of twink alts how?  Look what the battlegrounds in DAoC eventually degenerated into and tell me there's a big difference between twinked out alts and deleveled mains.

Battlegrounds never approached the level of disparity common in the end game rvr between premade groups and casuals, and I played both off and on for 5 years.

Sure,  your hardcore players can go out and make a bunch of twink alts.  This is a large investment in time and energy away from the max level pvp game, though, which is anathema to the advancement and endgame focus of your hardcore players.  At worst,  the delay and chore of leveling up the twink alts will shelter the lower level zones for an extended period of time while the rush of new players get their feet wet.

With deleveled mains,  you can just pop zone to zone and murder at will.  And you'll be able to do this as soon as you max out the level of your main.  Groups will do this just because they're bored with the present action in the high level zones or they're waiting for a zerg to disperse,  since you don't even have to relog and regroup to shoot off and pwn some noobs.

[HRose]

Battlegrounds never approached the level of disparity common in the end game rvr between premade groups and casuals, and I played both off and on for 5 years.

But this wasn't because of a lack of mentoring system. But because the RvR abilities were capped and minimal, and same for gear disparity.

The real point is that the problem of organized groups Vs PUGs is general through the *whole* game, not prerogative of low level zones and mentoring systems. It is not that the problem exists only in lower level zones.

Blaming the mentoring system for that is about doing the wrong observation.

Maybe you can say that lower level PvP is more casual because it is more transitory, and removing this means exposing it directly to the same problem. So making it in the similar way of how the endgame is. But the problem isn't removed by removing the mentoring system, it's just pushed forward to another point of the game.

[Nerf]

Having levels in itself isn't a fail. Having "levels and huge power disparities!" on the other hand can be good start for pretty stupid results.

EVE skill levels amount to 25% difference between zero skill and fully skilled character, plus similar amount from the gear difference. So it's not like there has to be huge grow in power attached to levels to keep people interested long-term.

Have you actually played Eve, tmp?

The difference between a zero skilled and a full skilled character (assuming the same gear and ship) is 200%+, I'd call that a pretty huge grow in power.

Now, the difference between a character with every skill at 4 (80% of max) vs. every skill at 5 (80%) is *very* small, but you've still got several months of training before you can do anything aside from sub-par crowd control in PVP.

*I think Eve would be a much better and far more noob-friendly game if they changed all level 5 prereqs to level 4 prereqs, and leave that last incredibly long hurdle up to the player if they want that extra bump.  I can train a skill from 1-4 in under a week, and the last level takes a month, and is 100% nescessary for me to able to do anything cool, hooray.

[Ratman_tf]

I think here "levels" means a way to segregate and divide players.

The difference with skills systems is that players in a skill system still play together at ease, players on a level system instead need to be of proper level.

Play together. Compete against each other. Etc...

Level disparity fragments your player population and prevents them from doing one of the things that keeps players in a MMOG much longer than any DIKU grind... forming groups and having fun together.

Now there is some advancement in any RPG type of game. But UO, Planetside, Guild Wars and Eve have shown that it doesn't have to utterly dominate player "skill". (I have one more level than you <> you have no chance whatsoever)

So any game with PvP and levels that has to put some retarted chicken (or whatever) "feature" in to balance PvP is showing that they really don't understand what the hell they're doing in the first place.

Level disparity is anthema to open (or realm based) PvP. And hostile to grouping in PvE as added salt in the wound.

[Schazzwozzer]

Re: twinked alts.  I don't know the specifics on WAR's equipment system, but devs have said that, when you're rewarded for quests or killing bosses, you're never going to get something that your character can't use.  I imagine that there will be some crossover in itemization between classes (with, like, gloves and rings maybe), but with weapons, your big-ass tank is probably never going to get his hands on a staff or bow for your healer or ranger alt.

Granted, players will always find SOME way to twink their alts (even if it means just buying shit from a vendor), and I suppose if they do a straight WoW-style Auction House, the above is moot.  Guess we'll have to see.

Re: deleveling.  I actually think that, done well, this is the best current solution for a level-based game.  Some of you are being way too flippant in how easy something like this would be to implement though.  Character stats are simple enough, sure, but what about equipment, and in WAR, the tactics and morale abilities?  It's not impossible, but it seems pretty damn tricky to me (especially if you want it all player-friendly) and, frankly, I'd rather have a quick and simple turn-you-into-a-chicken system than a poorly balanced, hastily implemented deleveling system.

[HRose]

Re: deleveling.  I actually think that, done well, this is the best current solution for a level-based game.  Some of you are being way too flippant in how easy something like this would be to implement though.  Character stats are simple enough, sure, but what about equipment, and in WAR, the tactics and morale abilities? 

I had proposed a specific system for Warhammer months ago (along with two other ideas), with most of the kinks worked out.

For example for the gear you would have to pass through an "office" when you enter a zone, like a zone-based bank where you store all your new high level equipment and can take back your old zone-based set.

My idea was to store rewards (such as gear) separately by tiers. So that you could "collect" items and badges through the various ranks, eventually going back and forth to complete collections.

I also suggested not only to delevel players, but also let them continue earn points for their real tier even when they are playing in a lower tier. Like a mentoring system should do.

[eldaec]

Re: twinked alts.  I don't know the specifics on WAR's equipment system, but devs have said that, when you're rewarded for quests or killing bosses, you're never going to get something that your character can't use. 

I've never in my life heard of anyone farming low level loot in order to twink.


Farming high level cash and buying low level gear will always be whole orders of magnitude more efficient.

[Merusk]

Re: twinked alts.  I don't know the specifics on WAR's equipment system, but devs have said that, when you're rewarded for quests or killing bosses, you're never going to get something that your character can't use. 

I've never in my life heard of anyone farming low level loot in order to twink.


Farming high level cash and buying low level gear will always be whole orders of magnitude more efficient.

Happens in WoW all the time. The BOP blues > almost anything you can buy with cash.  Yeah, there's BOE purples for certain slots at certain levels, but if you're serious about twinking you're going to have someone hauling your twink* through instances until the items you want drop.

* And by "hauling your twink" it means you stand at the entrance with group loot turned-on so you can roll on stuff off of bosses, but stay out of range of any XP gain, so you don't out-level your twinking range.

[Sunbury]

Whenever PvP (or other systems) comes up in MMORPG games, I always read someone who doesn't want levels or equipment to make much difference.   So those who want that, are asking for a game system where the 'game' is only the PvP tactical combat?  So you can buy the game, logon, learn the keyboard, and you are the same as everyone else?

Wouldn't that make the 'game' very shallow and therefore not very interesting?   All it would be is combat, no XP, no loot, no Realm Points, etc.  Isn't there a whole lotta games out there like that (Tribes 2, Battlefield X, ...)   So these people want a MMO-FPS style- but swinging swords and tossing magic instead of weapons?   

Actually that may be interesting - why doesn't someone make one of those?

However, back to my point, to me the 'game' in MMORPG was *never* the combat. The combat part is just a test of your level and equipment, and its usage.  That you are fighting the in the right place or not.  The 'game' is knowing how/where to gain levels and equipment, and then knowing how to use it and where to use it most effectively.   But where is the 'fun' one may ask?  Well, the 'fun' is thinking about, reading about and figuring all that out - and it used to be a lot more 'fun' before the Web spoiled everything...

[IainC]

However, back to my point, to me the 'game' in MMORPG was *never* the combat. The combat part is just a test of your level and equipment, and its usage.  That you are fighting the in the right place or not.  The 'game' is knowing how/where to gain levels and equipment, and then knowing how to use it and where to use it most effectively.

I've made that argument before.

[Venkman]

If PvP is some sideline for-fun sporting activity with maybe a different gear/reward path, players don't want levels nor prior investment to matter much. Of course, they accept when it does anyway.

However, if PvP is an SB or Eve type experience of interconnected players, economy and player-built structures, then absolutely gear and stats (not necessarily levels) need to make a difference because the entire user experience is the sum total of everything they do before, during, and after the fight.

So these people want a MMO-FPS style- but swinging swords and tossing magic instead of weapons?

Actually that may be interesting - why doesn't someone make one of those?

For the level of tech investment, there's not enough guaranteed return unfortunately. I would love to see FPS evolve beyond sci-fi as much as I want to see RPG evolve beyond stats. An MMOFPS fantasy game done well would prove whether it's viable.

You need someone to take that chance though.

[Mrbloodworth]

Somewhat related. I hate, hate hate hate hate hate, that i can't play or adventure with my friends because of level. Its the biggest cockblock in gaming history. So much so, that if games don't improve on this front, i may be pushed out of this genre of games.

This issue trumps any other concern, and should. On that note i have to give credit to games like planetside, SWG (pre-cu), Pirates of the caribbean online,and Dungeon runners.

[nurtsi]

Wouldn't that make the 'game' very shallow and therefore not very interesting?   All it would be is combat, no XP, no loot, no Realm Points, etc.  Isn't there a whole lotta games out there like that (Tribes 2, Battlefield X, ...)   So these people want a MMO-FPS style- but swinging swords and tossing magic instead of weapons?   

Actually that may be interesting - why doesn't someone make one of those?

http://www.dawnspire.com

[Mrbloodworth]

Wouldn't that make the 'game' very shallow and therefore not very interesting?   All it would be is combat, no XP, no loot, no Realm Points, etc.  Isn't there a whole lotta games out there like that (Tribes 2, Battlefield X, ...)   So these people want a MMO-FPS style- but swinging swords and tossing magic instead of weapons?   

Actually that may be interesting - why doesn't someone make one of those?

http://savage2.s2games.com

[Lakov_Sanite]

why not just make getting to max level the easy part and only let people pvp then?

(wait i forgot this is mythic, it's supposed to take me months to hit max level, silly me)


:  Added for super-sized sarcasm:

[tmp]

Have you actually played Eve, tmp?

The difference between a zero skilled and a full skilled character (assuming the same gear and ship) is 200%+, I'd call that a pretty huge grow in power.

Now, the difference between a character with every skill at 4 (80% of max) vs. every skill at 5 (80%) is *very* small, but you've still got several months of training before you can do anything aside from sub-par crowd control in PVP.

Yeah, a few years. While the cumulative effect of fully trained skills might come to that 200% you mention, what i meant was the difference in individual skills comes to 25% max. And if you consider character power tripling after they spend enough time to gather gazillion skillpoints to be huge, consider power difference between say, WoW character at level 1 and 70 (both with no gear or the same equipment)

*I think Eve would be a much better and far more noob-friendly game if they changed all level 5 prereqs to level 4 prereqs, and leave that last incredibly long hurdle up to the player if they want that extra bump.  I can train a skill from 1-4 in under a week, and the last level takes a month, and is 100% nescessary for me to able to do anything cool, hooray.

Won't argue about it, i was advocating pretty much the same thing when they kept introducing the new stuff with lvl.5 pre-reqs.

[Venkman]

http://savage2.s2games.com

http://www.dawnspire.com

Googlefu, or have you both played either of these? And if so, either of these worth checking out? I see D2 clickfests rather than actual MMOFPS. But that's before I've installed (which I can't do until later while being curious now )

[Nebu]

why not just make getting to max level the easy part and only let people pvp then?

(wait i forgot this is mythic, it's supposed to take me months to hit max level, silly me)


:  Added for super-sized sarcasm:

Perhaps you should look into a wildly successful game with an even longer grind... it's called WoW. 

[Schazzwozzer]

Actually that may be interesting - why doesn't someone make one of those?

Isn't Age of Conan pretty close to what you're suggesting?  Or is it too RPGy?

Not to continue with the derail, but when the hell is somebody going to make a breakout hit MMOFPS?  It seems like a no-brainer, especially for the oh-so-desirable console crowd.

[Venkman]

Perhaps you should look into a wildly successful game with an even longer grind... it's called WoW. 

WoW's grind was longer than DAoC's? Wuh?

Ok, maybe if you compare the solo player in WoW to someone who's interested in an older title and has a dedicated knowledgable friend in DAoC who can grind them out to 50 lickity split. That happened in SB too. But unlike in WoW, those are absolute requirements for anything beyond a way-huge boring grindfest.

At the same time, that knowledgable friend requirement in the early game is just a harbringer of what's to come anyway. You can still have fun alone in WoW at the final level. SB and DAoC RvR you better have other people around.

So it's not better nor worse. Just very different.

[Lakov_Sanite]

why not just make getting to max level the easy part and only let people pvp then?

(wait i forgot this is mythic, it's supposed to take me months to hit max level, silly me)


:  Added for super-sized sarcasm:

Perhaps you should look into a wildly successful game with an even longer grind... it's called WoW. 

A longer grind than what, WAR or DAOC? I'm going to have to call BS here. While you can argue that wow doesn't 'end' at level 70 and there is still a lot to grind afterwards by way of reputations/gear/crafting etc, the exact same can be applied to daoc and more than likely war as well. The difference is that even getting to that endgame grind where power levels in character starts to narrow takes 10x longer in daoc(or did last time i played) and i can guarentee it will in war as well.

Yes, a max level in raid gear will walk all over a fresh  max-level-whatever but that is gonna happen in every game, wow, war, anything. What I'm saying is make that the only real gap but no...when people boot up war there will be months of levelling and when they reach that magic cap? guess what, just as much end-game grinding as wow and it will just have taken longer to get there.

[Mrbloodworth]

http://savage2.s2games.com

http://www.dawnspire.com

Googlefu, or have you both played either of these? And if so, either of these worth checking out? I see D2 clickfests rather than actual MMOFPS. But that's before I've installed (which I can't do until later while being curious now )

I am currently playing savage 2. Its an RTS, RPG, and FPS (melee based however) game, but there are classes that can suit any playstyle. Its fantastic, steep learning curve, but its 30$ one time fee, content packs on a somewhat regular clip. Its not really a MMO, but its dam close with the persistent items system and account level. Its nothing like D2.

I recommend savage 2. haven't played the other. There is a free 5 hour trail, lets you do just about everything but command and no persistent items for you, but by signing up you get one scratch ticket (how persistent items are made) Great game to just pick up and play.

Refer Trucegore if you buy please =)

EDIT: Thread about it here.

[Nebu]

A longer grind than what, WAR or DAOC? I'm going to have to call BS here.

You haven't played DAoC for a while.  On the classic ruleset servers one can level a toon to 50 and gear it to the gills in about 2 days played or less.  Even getting a toon to 70 in WoW in 2 days would earn you some sort of record... and then there's the issue of gearing up. 

Yes, the grind in WoW is significantly longer than DAoC.  I'd say by a factor of 5.  I'm currently playing WoW, have several level 70's, and am feeling the grind. 

[Triforcer]

I'm too lazy to find it, but a dev said recently they are aiming at 200-250 hours to rank 40.  8-10ish days played is less than what it took me to get my first 70 in WoW (although I wasted a significant amount of time pvping getting there). 

[Nebu]

I'm too lazy to find it, but a dev said recently they are aiming at 200-250 hours to rank 40.  8-10ish days played is less than what it took me to get my first 70 in WoW (although I wasted a significant amount of time pvping getting there). 

If you have fun, the time wasn't wasted.  These are games, not races!

[Lakov_Sanite]

A longer grind than what, WAR or DAOC? I'm going to have to call BS here.

You haven't played DAoC for a while.  On the classic ruleset servers one can level a toon to 50 and gear it to the gills in about 2 days played or less.  Even getting a toon to 70 in WoW in 2 days would earn you some sort of record... and then there's the issue of gearing up. 

Yes, the grind in WoW is significantly longer than DAoC.  I'd say by a factor of 5.  I'm currently playing WoW, have several level 70's, and am feeling the grind. 

WAR on release day is not going to be daoc now, i promise you that.  I'm just done with games where if i want to get to the 'good' stuff i have to kill 30 different skinned models of spriggans for the next four months and im really getting that feeling from WAR

[Triforcer]

I'm too lazy to find it, but a dev said recently they are aiming at 200-250 hours to rank 40.  8-10ish days played is less than what it took me to get my first 70 in WoW (although I wasted a significant amount of time pvping getting there). 

If you have fun, the time wasn't wasted.  These are games, not races!

Good point.  Many evenings intended to be exp grinds were spent terrorizing the grinding grounds and keeping other (roughly same level) soloers from leveling.  Good times  

[Merusk]

A longer grind than what, WAR or DAOC? I'm going to have to call BS here.

You haven't played DAoC for a while.  On the classic ruleset servers one can level a toon to 50 and gear it to the gills in about 2 days played or less.  Even getting a toon to 70 in WoW in 2 days would earn you some sort of record... and then there's the issue of gearing up. 

You've said this before, and then talked about AOE groups, IIRC.  The same holds true in WOW, and is how folks GET that 70-in-less than a day /played time.   If you describe the actual methods to getting to 50 - that a noob has access and knowledge to - you'd get a lot less "wtf is Nebu smoking" reaction.

Then, of course, you have to argue about the whole "that's 20 levels below WoW's cap" part. But that's a strawman, imo, since "Cap" is "Cap" regardless of the number attached to it.

WAR on release day is not going to be daoc now, i promise you that.  I'm just done with games where if i want to get to the 'good' stuff i have to kill 30 different skinned models of spriggans for the next four months and im really getting that feeling from WAR

Agreed. Much as I love DIKU, I'm not looking for another grind for a bit. If WAR feels grindy, or actually does take 2-300 hours to cap out, then it might be done for me before I even start.  2-300 hours may only be 8 days /played, but that's 3-5 months at my current gaming schedule.

[Nebu]

WAR on release day is not going to be daoc now, i promise you that.  I'm just done with games where if i want to get to the 'good' stuff i have to kill 30 different skinned models of spriggans for the next four months and im really getting that feeling from WAR

I'm not sure how you know that's the case with WAR.  I'm willing to give MJ the benefit of the doubt as I've seen many improvements in DAoC over the recent 2-3 years.  I think Mythic is very capable of learning from past mistakes.  

My point was that people seem to want to grind to get to the good stuff and WoW's success is proof of that.  There's an entire industry of FPS games for those that want to jump right into the endgame.  Before you dismiss the first statement, I want you to know that I agree with you.  I love MMO's and would love to find a game where it's fun from beginning to end.  The sad truth is that MMO's attract gamers with a serious case of achiever mentality.  If you don't provide them with a constant stream of new goals, they will abandon your game for the next new shiny.  Most MMO subscribers want a grind... they want to have ways to be 2% better than the rest of the population.  They want to be the hero or the special snowflake and time seems to be the paradigm that works best at retaining them.  The hardcore get to be the top of the heap and the casual will play for months under the delusion that they will be able to get to the top eventually.  It's just the way it goes.

[Schazzwozzer]

You guys do know that they're building the game so that you can get to the end-game exclusively through PvP if you want, right?  I won't say that the PvP will never get grindy, but I don't know what's leading you guys to think WAR is going to be excessively grindy.

[Nebu]

I won't say that the PvP will never get grindy, but I don't know what's leading you guys to think WAR is going to be excessively grindy.

For the same reason that beef tastes meaty or chocolate tastes chocolatey.  MMO's are grindy by definition.  MMO gamers want goals.  My hope is that the grind is more fun than other MMO grinds.  Expecting there to be no grind in an MMO is setting yourself up for disappointment.

[tmp]

My point was that people seem to want to grind to get to the good stuff and WoW's success is proof of that.

In fact people seem to want it so much WoW devs just recently went and re-designed most of the game to lessen it significantly.

[Ratman_tf]

I was thinking about this shit the other day. What's really entertaining is that a person could remove all level disparity with a little bit of number tinkering.

Say, put a filter into WoW that adds a thousand to everybody's stats. Server side only. You see 80 Stamina. The server sees 1,080 Stamina. You are still playing WoW and getting the same amount of advancement, but the actual effects of said advancement are much less pronounced.

Adjust all other values (weapon damage, etc...) by that thousand and now a level one can group with a level 70. Tah Dah! You could also visit Azshara at level one and be able to play there, or go to Goldshire with a level 70 (if you wished) and not just be "passing through".

[Merusk]

You guys do know that they're building the game so that you can get to the end-game exclusively through PvP if you want, right?  I won't say that the PvP will never get grindy, but I don't know what's leading you guys to think WAR is going to be excessively grindy.

Part of the problem is, anything gets "grindy" when repeated ad-infitinitum.  It'll depend on how many different areas you see on that drip from 1-xx.  If I tell you "Yes, everyone can get to the cap via PvP, but you're all going to see Arathi Basin/ Alterac Valley from that entire trip" you'd get pretty damn sick of it quickly.

 WoW has (or HAD prior to the xp change) that problem in the 30s with STV.  You were in the same zone for nearly 15 levels, when prior zones you were there for 5-10.  That additional 5 levels doesn't look like a lot on paper, but combined with an additive xp curve, it FELT a hell of a lot longer.

So, if I'm trying to level while PVPing and the xp gains are so small that I'm stuck playing for weeks at the same spot, I'll just quit trying.

[Nebu]

In fact people seem to want it so much WoW devs just recently went and re-designed most of the game to lessen it significantly.

Lessen it, yes.  Significantly, no.  They threw people a small bone. 

If Blizzard wanted to get rid of the grind it wouldn't take much at all.  Why don't they?  It's not a sound financial decision.