Cautiously optimistic about AVP2.

[Cheddar]

I love the series; EVERY SINGLE ONE.  Except Alien 3, that just sucked ass.

Books were pretty decent also.  Great light reading.  Cheddar Jr. (First Daughter) also loves the Alien movie.  I am waiting until she is 9 to show her Aliens.


Stop judging me you Goddamn fuckers, it is not my fault that your child cannot deal with fake/reality. 

[Jain Zar]

I love the series; EVERY SINGLE ONE.  Except Alien 3, that just sucked ass.

Alien 3 on its own is a good movie.  As a sequel to Aliens its a pile of shit.  Makes my favorite movie ever effectively POINTLESS.
All because Siggy was a self absorbed gun hating asshole and thought the series was about her.
So everyone else had to die, and guns were bad, mmkay?

Resurrection was another Joss Whedon pile of quippy shit saved from being a pile of butt due to Ron Perlman being completely fucking awesome.

As to the new flick?  Im looking forward to it.  Should be fun.

[Cheddar]

I love the series; EVERY SINGLE ONE.  Except Alien 3, that just sucked ass.

Alien 3 on its own is a good movie.  As a sequel to Aliens its a pile of shit.  Makes my favorite movie ever effectively POINTLESS.
All because Siggy was a self absorbed gun hating asshole and thought the series was about her.
So everyone else had to die, and guns were bad, mmkay?

Resurrection was another Joss Whedon pile of quippy shit saved from being a pile of butt due to Ron Perlman being completely fucking awesome.

As to the new flick?  Im looking forward to it.  Should be fun.

Totally forgot about that abortion.  Resurrection blew.  I actually erased it from my brain.

[Margalis]

Alien 3 was not a good movie on its own. It was dreck. Poor plotting, poor camerawork, poor cast and costuming decisions.

It's really sad that people now remember the Aliens movies as "Aliens kill shit." Yes that was a part of it but the first two were genuinely good movies that put out a coherent worldview, a strong vision and strong characters and writing. They were much more than slasher flicks with cool monsters.

Alien 4 was actually a strong concept on paper IMO, but the choice of director was totally wrong for the movie, a complete mismatch of style to theme. I'm not an educated film viewer and there are few films I can point to and say "here is how the director totally screwed up" but that was one of them. And it's not that the director was bad, just bad for that movie.

[Abagadro]

Was poking around on imdb about the Aliens movies and just saw that David Fincher is set to direct Rendevous with Rama.

[lesion]

Elbow melting: check
Kid gets jacked: check
Lance Henriksen cameo: ???

[Ironwood]

Love it. Can't be disappointed.

You people have GOT to stop saying shit like this.

Shrug, it will live up to every expectation I have, I don't care if it has horrible acting/dialog/plot. I wanna see some aliens and predators duke it out. You people need to get over yourself because someone might enjoy something you would consider beneath you.

You misunderstood.  Wilfully, it would seem.  I want the same thing you do.  I'm looking forward to the same stuff you are.  I am as stoked as you.

But you shouldn't say 'Can't' be dissappointed because all it takes is one douchebag producer or director or ending and you're left looking like a retard.  See; Schilds Legend Thread.

[DraconianOne]

Alien 3 was not a good movie on its own. It was dreck. Poor plotting, poor camerawork, poor cast and costuming decisions.

It's really sad that people now remember the Aliens movies as "Aliens kill shit." Yes that was a part of it but the first two were genuinely good movies that put out a coherent worldview, a strong vision and strong characters and writing. They were much more than slasher flicks with cool monsters.

Alien 4 was actually a strong concept on paper IMO, but the choice of director was totally wrong for the movie, a complete mismatch of style to theme. I'm not an educated film viewer and there are few films I can point to and say "here is how the director totally screwed up" but that was one of them. And it's not that the director was bad, just bad for that movie.

Alien 3 was not a good movie on its own. It was dreck. Poor plotting, poor camerawork, poor cast and costuming decisions.

It's really sad that people now remember the Aliens movies as "Aliens kill shit." Yes that was a part of it but the first two were genuinely good movies that put out a coherent worldview, a strong vision and strong characters and writing. They were much more than slasher flicks with cool monsters.

Alien 4 was actually a strong concept on paper IMO, but the choice of director was totally wrong for the movie, a complete mismatch of style to theme. I'm not an educated film viewer and there are few films I can point to and say "here is how the director totally screwed up" but that was one of them. And it's not that the director was bad, just bad for that movie.

I didn't mind Alien 3.  It was by no means great but I never hated it as much as others (or as much as I generally hate Resurrection.  I don't know how you can call the cast poor either - the cast was superb (although I would tentively agree that they weren't the best performances that they've ever done).  Charles Dance, Brian Glover, Paul McGann, Pete Postlethwaite?  Fantastic.  I love the production design in it and some of what they tried to do in the story but yeah, the plotting and pacing was extremely questionable.  I understand that Fincher walked out before editing because of studio interference so this doesn't surprise me in the least. 

I agree about Alien: Resurrection and I agree that Jean-Pierre Jeunet, while having directed some of my favourite films, was not the right choice.  I don't blame Joss Whedon so much except for as much as he didn't like the ending that Jeunet ended up choosing, he should never have fucking written it in the first place.  Main problem with it is that there's nothing innovative about the story and it's all a little contrived.  That being said, I find it entertaining up until the whole newborn bit which is a total fucking waste of celluloid.

I also agree about the first two being in a league of their own and concur that's its because of the writing and the characters.  Alien works as a horror film because it plays to some very basic fears and delves deep into the psyche of the viewers.  At a basic level it's about the creature but there's so much more than just a chase film.  It scares you and then takes away any place for you to hide by destroying the two things most commonly associated with safety and protection: mother and god.  In "Alien", god is Science but science is represented by Ash, the Science officer who turns out to be an android and tries to kill Ripley.  Mother is the computer who protects the crew when they're asleep but is willing to give them up and betray them because they are "expendable".  Alien also benefits from some very effective direction (for example, when Lambert is killed, there's a whole "rape" and "victimisation" subtext going on.  When Dallas is hunting the alien in the air ducts, we see his demise in the form of a computer display tracking his and the aliens movements - what scares us is what we don't see). 

Aliens is less about horror and more about action.  It works because Cameron wrote some very memorable characters and also wrote a film where the stakes and the danger are constantly escalated.  Each time the cast are in a bad predicament that can't possibly get worse, it gets worse.  A lot of the conflict and drama in the film is generated between the characters rather than by the threat of the aliens.  Gorman is an incompetent C.O. who gets most of the marines killed and who the survivors hate.  Burke is more interested in profit than the lives of the people he's with.  Anyone who thinks the film is about the aliens is missing the point - they're just an extra problem.  Anyone who thinks the marines are badass arsekickers - to paraphrase Hudson "maybe you haven't been keeping up with current events but we just got our asses kicked".  The marines are ineffectual against the aliens - none of the hardware that Hudson shows off in the dropship and nothing they do can stop them.  They all die (except Hicks who waits a movie).  It's "Snow White" Ripley, the civilian, who goes in armed to the teeth and kicks ass, simply to rescue a little girl.  This ordinary, non-military woman does what the marines failed to do.  The film has a shed load of themes and issues scattered throughout it too, like, for example, motherhood. The final fight between Ripley and the Queen isn't just about human against alien - it's mother against mother.

Alien3 made a brave attempt to be like it's predecessors but couldn't pull it off.  Alien: Resurrection didn't even try.

I'm not an educated film viewer

It might be obvious that I spend way too much time thinking, reading and writing about this shit.

(EDITED again because apparently it wasn't wasted on Ironwood and I live to please.  Or something)

[stray]

I don't mind anything with Winona in it. Even that Quilt movie.

Not really a great Alien movie though.

[Ironwood]

The other stuff I wrote about why Alien and Aliens were so good is wasted here. 

What ?

Why the fuck did you do that ?  It was interesting.

[Kirth]

Love it. Can't be disappointed.

You people have GOT to stop saying shit like this.

Shrug, it will live up to every expectation I have, I don't care if it has horrible acting/dialog/plot. I wanna see some aliens and predators duke it out. You people need to get over yourself because someone might enjoy something you would consider beneath you.

You misunderstood.  Wilfully, it would seem.  I want the same thing you do.  I'm looking forward to the same stuff you are.  I am as stoked as you.

But you shouldn't say 'Can't' be dissappointed because all it takes is one douchebag producer or director or ending and you're left looking like a retard.  See; Schilds Legend Thread.

Ah, I retract. yeh it is possible to be disappointed I guess if someone decides to turn this into a arts flick with a poignant sub message about whatever. But after watching the first 5 minutes I can see thats not going to be the case.

[stray]

I'm gonna hope for something as good as the Dawn of the Dead remake.

[WindupAtheist]

I love the series; EVERY SINGLE ONE.  Except Alien 3, that just sucked ass.

Books were pretty decent also.  Great light reading.  Cheddar Jr. (First Daughter) also loves the Alien movie.  I am waiting until she is 9 to show her Aliens.

Stop judging me you Goddamn fuckers, it is not my fault that your child cannot deal with fake/reality.

I saw Aliens when I was nine, just because I happened to be nine when it came out.  And the books were indeed fun.  I really liked the thing they had going on where the aliens got loose on Earth and eventually overran the entire planet Zerg-style.

[Riggswolfe]

How can so many of you think Predator 2 was good? The only good part is the end when he finds the Alien skull and the other Predators give him the antique pistol. Well that and the pregnant girl being spared showing a rudimentary honor code. Though I prefer to think of it as "hell if I wait to kill her I can hunt the kid too!"

[stray]

Very underrated movie. Sure, it doesn't have the same star power, but the story itself is better imo. If you put Arnold in the second one, and Danny in the first, opinions would be far different. I like it how it is though. Danny Glover is insane.

[WindupAtheist]

Predator 2 wasn't in the same league of awesome as the original Predator or the first two Alien flicks or anything, but it was a solid and worthy sequel.  I especially liked the bit where Gary Busey explains his complicated plan to thwart the Predator's thermal vision, followed by the Predator going "Oh, my thermal vision doesn't seem to be working, time to switch to something else and kill everyone!"

[Riggswolfe]

Hmmmm...I guess I'll give my rundown on thoughts about the Alien movies.

Alien and Aliens were awesome. I almost bought the quadrilogy just to have these two films.

Alien 3 was so bad it almost destroyed any enjoyment I got out of Aliens. So, let me get this straight. Newt, the girl who Ripley risked everything for dies in the credits? Really? Seriously? Horrible, horrible script. Great Director. This movie is almost painful to watch and is #2 on my list of "I wish I knew nothing about it and could still enjoy Aliens as much without going 'they all die in the next movie' in my head the whole time." Highlander 2 is number 1 on my "I wish I could unsee it" list BTW.

Alien: Resurrection was the exact opposite of Alien 3. Good script (the original non-hacked up version) and a horrible director.

As for the Predator movies. 1 was good but not as good as the first 2 alien movies. 2 was meh.

I couldn't watch all of AvP, it never hooked me in any way.

[WindupAtheist]

I came real close to walking out of AVP1 during all the "Arctic pyramid, bla bla, I'm Lance Henrikson!" bullshit.  When the action finally started I managed to stay in my seat, but barely.  The horribly nerfed chestburster scene pissed me off.

[Teleku]

The sad thing about Alien 3 was that the story was suppose to be completley different.  An early teaser trailer mentioned (it was just talk, didn't show anything) the Aliens making it to earth.  But the whole thing got stuck in production hell for what ever reason, and they went through a fuck ton of script writes and different directors.  Finally, they just pushed it out the door by doing the current plot, which could be shot fast and cheep because it all took place in one damn factory.  It had potential to be a hell of alot more awesome.

In case anybody didn't know, you can read some of the early scripts written by various authores Here

I read the one by William Gibson, and it was actually a pretty good read.  I wasn't really a fan on his different take on how the aliens were created, but the film still would have been 1000 times better than Alien 3 actually turned out to be.

[HaemishM]

The central characters in Aliens were "normal people". Aliens 3 and 4 were more marine centric (and Ripley was far more militant by that point).

Uhh....did you watch the movies? Aliens was marines. Aliens 3 was convicts. Aliens 4 was smugglers/criminals and Ripley.

I said central characters. Ripley is the sole-surviving-central-this-movie-is-all-about-me-character in Aliens. The protagonist. And she's the most normal, feeble one of the bunch. Which is why it's that much more interesting than most action or horror heroes (especially before it). But if you think it's Private Vasquez, or anyone else, then I don't know what to say other than that you have no real appreciation for what that movie is trying to communicate.

Yes, to me, what made Aliens a better film than Aliens 3 or 4 was that it was a squad of marines fighting with these facehugging fuckers. Michael Biehn's character was more interesting to me than Ripley, which is why his casual death at the beginning of Aliens 3 killed that movie for me. Narratively speaking, by the time the 3rd Aliens movie came around, there shouldn't BE any "normal" people fighting these things, because the corporation or the government should have already started wiping planets clean that had even the hint of an infection. 4 was even more forced in that sense.

The original Alien was about normal people in horrific circumstances and it was fantastic. But Aliens changed the nature of the narrative, and trying to edge it back towards the first film in 3 and 4 just didn't work. Hell, Michael Wincott's character in 4 was more interesting than the prisoners in 3.

Predator is about the universe's finest warriors trying to find the greatest challenges. In regards to fighting Aliens, the Predators only use for humans who aren't asskickers should be facehugger fodder.

[stray]

Finest warriors finding the greatest challenges? Lol, they were just on a rescue mission, killing a bunch of shitty central american rebels. It doesn't really matter how much of an asskicker you are either -- 99.9% of the time, you will get your spine pulled out. And the only guy who got away ended up doing it because he finally got smart for a change.

Danny Glover, on the other hand, had many moments of outsmarting the hunter. We can all disagree on what's better or not (I don't really care), but at least understand that asskicking is not the way to fight those dudes.

Same goes for Aliens. Just about everyone who ever survived against them ended up being the smart ones, not the asskickers. Michael Beihn is an exception, but hell, he was the sensitive marine of the bunch. Ron Perlman may be the only anomaly. But he's a step above any kind of normal asskicker.

[Ironwood]

Um, Dude, he meant the Predators....

[stray]

Oh.. Well what the fuckever! I'm still right

[HaemishM]

Same goes for Aliens. Just about everyone who ever survived against them ended up being the smart ones, not the asskickers. Michael Beihn is an exception, but hell, he was the sensitive marine of the bunch. Ron Perlman may be the only anomaly. But he's a step above any kind of normal asskicker.

Michael Biehn survived by being the smart one. He said "Let's nuke the bitches from orbit."

And yes, I was referring to the Predators when I spoke of the finest warriors seeking a challenge.

[Merusk]

It's just a slasher flick with Aliens. That's what it looks like to me anyway.

The sci-fi setting was neat but more than that the overall atmosphere, setting and characterization was well-done in Alien and Aliens. The new atmosphere is pretty much your typical gore fest, just an upgraded version of what you see on the Sci-Fi channel.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking.  Piss-poor writer/ directors try to do scary and wind-up with "omg get out the blood buckets."   Alien and Aliens can still freak you right the fuck out when you see the 'edited for TV' version because they're damn good flicks.  This looks like it'd have a running time of 75 minutes and be utter shit without the gore.

[WindupAtheist]

I read the one by William Gibson, and it was actually a pretty good read.  I wasn't really a fan on his different take on how the aliens were created, but the film still would have been 1000 times better than Alien 3 actually turned out to be.

Was Weaver talking about not signing on for the third one?  Because she spends Gibson's entire script in a coma.  Anyway, it was interesting, but the people turning into aliens and the five chestbursters all shooting out of a guy at the same time and shit didn't make any sense.  Didn't really grab me.

But anything would have been better than what we got.

[Teleku]

Yes, actually, one of the reasons he wrote it that way is because at the time, she was committed to not being involved (or being involved only slightly) with the movie.

Which would have been great, I think.  Good to move the focus away from her so you have more flexability with plot.

And I agree that Gibson's take is continuity breaking with the aliens, and I wasn't really a fan.  Barring that though, I liked the setting, characters, and general plot development.  You can see the cyberpunk influences in his take on it, with the general gritty yet commercialized descriptions of the space station and the interaction with the The Corporation.  The effect on screen (if done properly) could have been really neat.

Also liked him throwing in the whole communist block thing, heh.

[Merusk]

Gibson had people turning into Aliens?  That was in the original cut of the first movie. They had these pods/ cocoon things made and everything, but they decided to cut it because it wasn't working right.  Ridley Scott kept one of the 'cocoons' and slept in it during shooting because he said they were incredibly comfortable. 

If you've ever read the novelization of the first movie, you know what I'm talking about.  It's in the scene where Ripley comes into contact with the Captian after he's been taken by the critter.

[DraconianOne]

Yes, actually, one of the reasons he wrote it that way is because at the time, she was committed to not being involved (or being involved only slightly) with the movie.

I've read it as being that the producers, Walter Hill and David Giler didn't want Sigourney back so the first few versions by Gibson, Eric Red and David Twohy didn't feature her.  (I didn't realise that Twohy had ever written a draft so thanks for that previous link.  It suddenly explains a lot about why he went on to write/direct Pitch Black.  Will be interested in reading that version). 

Comparing Alien 3 to Highlander 2 is a bit fucking harsh though.  You might not like the fact that they killed Hicks and Newt at the beginning (although personally, I wrote Hicks off at the end of Aliens and if I'd have written the script instead of Cameron, Newt - the most irritating thing about the film - would never have made it through it either.) but at least they didn't fucking retcon the whole setup and say that Aliens were, I don't know, immortal scotsmen that had evolved and left earth a thousand years before or some such bollocks.

Alien 3 tried very hard: it set up the whole scenario so that there was some human conflict between the warders and the prisoners and between the prisoners and Ripley.  Ripley was as much an alien in that world as the alien was and then there was the religion thing.  Unfortunately, it was too weak - none of the prisoners beyond Charles Dutton and Charles Dance were memorable or noticeable.  The warders were ineffectual rather than malicious or self centered (Aaron calls the company because he's afraid - so unlike Burke in Aliens).  There was no exploration of the religion themes that were introduced, the character conflict never came to much, the alien wasn't scary (mainly because we didn't care about the prisoners and because it was badly shot) and the subplots were poorly developed and not followed through.  Also, there was no danger from the environment - the setting didn't matter one bit so there was no feeling of urgency or claustrophobia. That being said, I don't think this made it an awful film - just a poor one that was very disappointing after the high of Aliens.

They probably could have improved it by letting Newt survive and introduced a subplot about some if not all of the the prisoners being pederasts (including the nice doctor) which would have added so much threat and given Ripley so much more to worry about pllus the the juxtaposition between the monstrous kiddy fiddlers and the actual alien monster.  The religious theme could have then been developed to explore the nature of sin, forgiveness and redemption.

Plus the alien should never have been a dog.

[Riggswolfe]

Gibson had people turning into Aliens?  That was in the original cut of the first movie. They had these pods/ cocoon things made and everything, but they decided to cut it because it wasn't working right.  Ridley Scott kept one of the 'cocoons' and slept in it during shooting because he said they were incredibly comfortable. 

If you've ever read the novelization of the first movie, you know what I'm talking about.  It's in the scene where Ripley comes into contact with the Captian after he's been taken by the critter.

Uh...no it wasn't. The deleted scene in the first movie was basically just a cocoon scene like in Aliens. The biggest difference is that the alien could produce eggs on its own which lead to a subplot in the novel of "this thing must NOT reach Earth" if memory serves.

[Margalis]

Good post DraconianOne, I agree with nearly everything you said.

What happens with many franchises is that over time they become self-charicature. That is what happened in Terminator 3, where they figured re-using the same jokes and catch-phrases was enough. It was pale imitation.

That is what has happened with Aliens. There is a forumla now, and the formula is very reductive: Aliens kill people. Maybe they kill them with acid or sharp tails or whatever, but that's the main theme that holds them together. (Or doesn't) That's what people want to see I guess, for the simple-minded that's what the movies were about from the start. Jason Vorhees in a more elaborate costume.

The first three Alien movies had a bleak world-view and explored themes of isolation, a world turned upside-down amid unfamiliar circumstances. People being ambushed by a reality they didn't know existed. Newt explicitly makes this point in Aliens in her bit about how her mother told her monsters weren't real - but she lied. A large part of the first three movies, and especially the first two, is the notion that we live in a very different place than we thought.

I didn't mind Alien 3.  It was by no means great but I never hated it as much as others (or as much as I generally hate Resurrection.  I don't know how you can call the cast poor either - the cast was superb (although I would tentively agree that they weren't the best performances that they've ever done). 

My problem is that the cast plus the costuming decisions made the characters largely interchangeable and indistinguishable, especially coming from the colorful cast of Aliens. Everyone looked too damn similar.

From what I understand Alien 3 was basically doomed to fail, based on the numerous delays and problems at every step of the way. I don't think it was so much a problem with Fincher or the script so much as the entire process was a Catwoman-like clusterfuck.

Aliens 4 set the wrong tone, it was downright silly at parts. Especially the General who reaches up to feel a part of his brain, it was horror-comedy. Many scenes were played more for laughs or some sort of irony than anything else. (Like the Alien going into the egg-like escape pod and eating everyone in it)

The script was all over the place, I don't even understand what the point of Ryder's character was, and most of the other characters were cartoon cutouts.

[Jain Zar]

What happens with many franchises is that over time they become self-charicature. That is what happened in Terminator 3, where they figured re-using the same jokes and catch-phrases was enough. It was pale imitation.

The real problem with T3 is the same as A3.
IT SHITS OVER THE PREVIOUS INSTALLMENT.
Both movies basically say "You know everything these characters fought so hard for and lost so much accomplishing?  IT DIDN'T MATTER ONE BIT".
While this is pretty realistic, its also about as satisfying as eating 1 single french fry or a single potato chip. 
What's sad is for Aliens, Dark Horse comics released a trilogy of miniseries written by Mark Verheiden with awesome art by Mark Nelson (moody black and white), Denis Beauvais (outstanding full color airbrush art), and Sam Keith (not the best fit for the series, but he is a favorite comic artist of mine anyhow) that was a vastly superior sequel to Aliens starring Hicks and Newt with Ripley nowhere to be found till the 3rd series.

It made Aliens 3 that much worse on me since I knew how it SHOULD have gone down instead. 

In my  , that's what really happened and 3 & Resurrection are an inferior alternate timeline where facehuggers somehow got on board the Sulaco without any way for it to actually happen.

Aliens 4 set the wrong tone, it was downright silly at parts. Especially the General who reaches up to feel a part of his brain, it was horror-comedy. Many scenes were played more for laughs or some sort of irony than anything else. (Like the Alien going into the egg-like escape pod and eating everyone in it)

The script was all over the place, I don't even understand what the point of Ryder's character was, and most of the other characters were cartoon cutouts.

Blame Joss Whedon.  Everything he writes has all these cute and "clever" bits in them where everyone wisecracks and quips their way through what could have been an interesting story if it wasn't filled with this retarded dialogue RPG.net's collective posters jerk off over every 5 seconds.

(I am very happy Firefly/Serenity failed twice.  Fuck Joss Whedon.  His stuff sucks ass.)

If I want smarmy dialogue ill read Something Positive or Questionable Content which are pretty much the same thing in comic form.

.....

Damn, realizing that I now suddenly don't like either webcomic as much.. :(

[stray]

Uh, I think deep inside, Whedon is a comedian. I mean come on.. Buffy. The Vampire Slayer. It's funny. Or at least it can be. It's supposed to have wisecracks. No need to take it too seriously.

And don't even call me a fanboi or anything, please! I just started watching the stuff.


All that being said, I had no idea he wrote Alien Resurrection.

[schild]

Buffy's jokes were so badly written. Camp sucks about 99% of the time.

[stray]

I disagree, almost everything out of Spike or Cordelia's mouth is hilarious! Or maybe that's just the actors, I don't know.