Yet another RMT service

[Venkman]

Noteworthy mostly just because it was started by the guy who created the ingame advertising company Massive.

Live Gamer.

Read about it over at Worlds in Motion. Basically it's another third-party provider of RMT services with "a slate of MMO and virtual world operators including Funcom GMBH, Sony Online Entertainment, 10Tacle Studios, Acclaim, GoPets and Ping0 Interactive, all of whom will work with Live Gamer to provide the transaction platform to their users."

I wonder what this means for PlaySpan

I actually don't wonder at all. Any company serious about a microtrans business model has either already signed on a partner or has internalized. The Johnny-come-late-lies somewhat don't count in my opinion because going from a subscription-based game to a microtrans one a) is a surefire why to piss off your players on an NGE-level by radically changing motivations and their sense of "balance"; and, b) not something you can do and immediately expect the same revenue.

So basically, I see this as news about nothing.

But I thought it interesting because of the PlaySpan thing from a few months back.

[geldonyetich2]

 

[stray]

Rock on. I say MORE RMT.

Perhaps that'll change the MMO industry into making worthwhile games.

[Venkman]

Short answer:

List any game that makes all of their money on microtrans. Then find one you'd find worth playing.

Partly different audiences, sure. But those type of buy-your-way-around-the-crappy-grindfest ain't going to cut it in the West when we can get meaningful advancement for a flat fee.

[stray]

I think you misunderstand.

I hope for the mmo industry to completely fall apart from the weight of duping and gold farmers. I want all money hats burned, mass unemployment, and sad faces everywhere.

Maybe then that'll convince developers to change their tune and make some real games. Because simply asking them doesn't work apparently.

[Teleku]

Out of curiosity, how is massive gold farming going to bring about the destruction of the MMO industry in any conceivable way?

[hal]

The fact that you can gain advantage through RMT platt or whatever is broken. It is just that simple. There will allways be buyers and sellers. Make the game where you can not trade and your problem goes away. Even better make the game where grinding does not equal the win. Here's a suggestion, make a game that is fun to play at whatever level. Say it with me now "DUH"

[Venkman]

I think you misunderstand.

I hope for the mmo industry to completely fall apart from the weight of duping and gold farmers. I want all money hats burned, mass unemployment, and sad faces everywhere.

Maybe then that'll convince developers to change their tune and make some real games. Because simply asking them doesn't work apparently.

Heh, yea, I did misunderstand

Simply asking doesn't work in the face of billions. But I would like to see some true uniqueness. That may be coming in various minor forms in 2008, but I suspect the most edge-pushing ones will move to 2009 or go on "indefinite hiatus".

[geldonyetich2]

I think that the thing that bothers me most about RMT is just how it breaks the fourth wall.  However, it's a pipe dream to think that it's a very solid wall to begin with.  Something as minor as having more time to play that the other guy gives you an advantage.  Still, even considering this, it rubs me the wrong way to think you can buy virtual achievement.

I think most developers agree.  SOE's EQ2 Exchange server plan was the most daring in that it attempted to segregate rather than outright eliminate (or failure to do so).  You can't use Korean micro-payment games because, upon closer examination, you'll find the kind of advantage they give doesn't involve overtly buying shortcuts so much as minor advantages (double experience points for an hour) or cosmetic things (outfits).

[Lum]

Make the game where you can not trade and your problem goes away.

A game with no player-to-player trading becomes effectively crippled as a multiplayer game (or workarounds happen - see Diablo 2 and dropping things on the ground in "malls").

City of Heroes/Villains, until recently, had effectively no economy, no equipment that could be traded between players, and very little to spend money on. There were still people selling "influence" (the CoH currency) online.

Even better make the game where grinding does not equal the win. Here's a suggestion, make a game that is fun to play at whatever level. Say it with me now "DUH"

Your thoughts on how to achieve this "DUH"ness?

(Hint: World of Warcraft came the closest to a fun experience from levels 1 to 70 - arguably the game is LESS fun at max level. RMT is still alive and well in WoW).

(Hint 2: Eve has no grind save time-based advancement. RMT is still alive and well in Eve.)

(Hint 3: please consult forumclues4sale.com for the unlock code to this hint!)

(Hint 4: As long as there is "the win" of any sort, people will seek to shortcut the path to it.)

[Ratman_tf]

(Hint 4: As long as there is "the win" of any sort, people will seek to shortcut the path to it.)

And not even "the win" button. See people making shit and selling it in Sims 2 and Second Life. It's not analogus to RMT, but it is a case of 3rd parties making money from a game.

So I would be shocked and dismayed* if some imaginary "Golden Game" would avoid RMT in some form or another.

*Mildly surprised.

And lack of RMT does not equate to fun, quality game anyway.

[shiznitz]

So many of us have, at one time or another on forums like these, scolded devs for their vision of the game.

"Why are you trying to make us play the way YOU want us to? Just give us a world and let us play, man. "

RMT is the same thing. Some players want what they cannot achieve within the game's framework so they seek an ex-game solution. It has been argued but never demonstrated that RMT actually hurts the game from the players' view or the devs'. As has been decribed above, ALL MMOGs have RMT going on whether that game is a 9 million subscriber blockbuster or a 100-150k subscriber also-ran.

Is the customer always right or not? Now don't throw that back at me and say that every game should be WoW or GTA or Guitar Hero because those are what sells the most. Gamers want options, but the market is clearly telling MMOG devs that no matter what kid of game you build, RMT is going to happen so you might as well plan on it being there from the beginning.

Is Mythic planning on this for WAR? Is Funcom planning on this for Conan? There is no indication from either firm that they are going to do anything different in this regard. People like to give SOE shit for Station Exchange but at least they are offering something that some gamers obviously want. The problem is they offered it 2 years after the game launched. Players aren't going to switch communities just for Station Exchange. Hell, I get 4-6 gold spams in a two hour EQ2 sessions on a non-Exchange server.

I don't have an answer as to how future MMOG devs should handle this but then it is not my job to worry about it.  MMOGs have to allow intra-player trade to have any MMO feel to them. Once that is introduced, the game cannot control what people do outside the game if they choose to use parts of the game as currency. Is trading cyber for plat all that different than RMT?

[Mrbloodworth]

Make the game where you can not trade and your problem goes away.

A game with no player-to-player trading becomes effectively crippled as a multiplayer game (or workarounds happen - see Diablo 2 and dropping things on the ground in "malls").

City of Heroes/Villains, until recently, had effectively no economy, no equipment that could be traded between players, and very little to spend money on. There were still people selling "influence" (the CoH currency) online.

Even better make the game where grinding does not equal the win. Here's a suggestion, make a game that is fun to play at whatever level. Say it with me now "DUH"

Your thoughts on how to achieve this "DUH"ness?

(Hint: World of Warcraft came the closest to a fun experience from levels 1 to 70 - arguably the game is LESS fun at max level. RMT is still alive and well in WoW).

(Hint 2: Eve has no grind save time-based advancement. RMT is still alive and well in Eve.)

(Hint 3: please consult forumclues4sale.com for the unlock code to this hint!)

(Hint 4: As long as there is "the win" of any sort, people will seek to shortcut the path to it.)

Dungeon runners.

You can trade items all day long (As long as they dont BOP ETC..), but not gold.

[Rendakor]

Dungeon runners.

You can trade items all day long (As long as they dont BOP ETC..), but not gold.

a) Players buy items directly from RMT guys instead of buying cash.
b) You get a diablo-esque setup where players use a specific item for currency, and thus buy SoJs from IGE
c) You buy 1k gold and recieve 1k gold's worth of items, based on their vendor values.

Workarounds everywhere.

[shiznitz]

And those workarounds are harder to track than large coin transfers.

[geldonyetich2]

I get the feeling the only way to stop RMT would be to remove (or severely restrict) in-game trading entirely.  Even then, people would be selling complete accounts.

[Rendakor]

Which would completely kill any player economy.

[geldonyetich2]

Exactly... although, now that I'm seeing that, I wonder: "Completely?"

Would it be possible to have some kind of anonymous economy where you could set up trades between players through a channel in which they have no idea where their in-game currency is going?  For example, an Auction House where you can't see how many of an item is for sale and there's 50/50 chance an NPC agent would forward an item in the event that there's only one item up for sale.

[qedetc]

50/50 chance an NPC agent would forward an item in the event that there's only one item up for sale.

1) 100k item up on market for 5 seconds at 5k
2) spam buy for 50% chance to legitimately almost-dupe item.
3) cancel sale or continue to purchase until you get the actual listing.

[geldonyetich2]

Good point, unless there's an item balance that makes duping pointless, the "legitimate dupe" angle screws that up.  Perhaps instead make it a 50/50 chance that a player can even see a instance of an item being put up for sale, with an inability to take back an item sale for some period (say, an hour). 

[tmp]

Which would completely kill any player economy.

Good riddance in most cases.

[Venkman]

All this noise is just symptoms. RMT, powerleveling, twinking, etc.

The actual problem is one of inequality. And the only way to "solve" that et al is to remove all inequality.

So since that isn't going to happen, you go after the second problem: people paying too much attention to what someone else has. Mind your own damned business (beyond /report'ing someone who's exploiting) and you'll be much happier.

[Rendakor]

Dq that would help in some situations, but not all instances of RMT are people buying gold to be better than the Joneses. I'm thinking of in game massive money sinks, ala mounts. Everyone wants to save time, go faster, etc; it's not a "my friend has an epic flying mount and I don't," so much as, "it takes 10 minutes to get from A to B and I wish I could do it in 5." So you'd have to take things like that out too. But then, timesinks should have been on the chopping block years ago.

[tmp]

But then, timesinks should have been on the chopping block years ago.

Well they did away with some of them in PotBS (instant travel to mission spots rather than actual travel to location) and people bitch instead how artificial it feels. So another of these damned if do, damned if don't situations.

[Rendakor]

True; people used to bitch about that in EQ2 at launch all the time too, how you could (for a small fee) travel to any outdoor zone. Then they didn't let you do it with Lavastorm, and they bitched again. I'd say leave in the OPTION to walk/sail/fly to the fun, as well as giving a teleport to those of us who don't enjoy seeing the same scenery over and over instead of actually playing the game.

[damijin]

Am I insane for not seeing RMT as a 'problem' to begin with? This is the nature of our society. If you make something difficult to attain, people will pay for it. Is that really a problem?

I've never purchased any money in an MMO, and I played Lineage 2 for years where eBay was the name of the game. It really didn't hinder my fun that others around me were buying things. It's interesting that people will spend money for something that is essentially just a database entry which could be manipulated at will by other human beings, but I'm not sure if it's a 'problem' that needs to be solved.

If you're trying to solve anything, it should be making sure the game is fun for reasons other than achievement -- because any game with any sort of achievement will always have people purchasing it to get to the top faster.

[Rendakor]

I don't have a problem with it when it's supported by the Devs. Station Exchange servers are fine, as are KMMOs that are f2p + cashshop. Buying gold in WoW, however, is cheating.

[Mandrel]

Am I insane for not seeing RMT as a 'problem' to begin with? This is the nature of our society. If you make something difficult to attain, people will pay for it. Is that really a problem?

It's a problem because it is a part of the game that most designers don't have designed into their game, and then have to deal with the consequences of the players participating in it.  Probably most labor intensive are players who get scammed by other players.  The Devs don't want to say "too bad", and possibly lose a customer, so they have to dedicate CSR time to deal with a problem not of their own creation.

[stray]

If you're trying to solve anything, it should be making sure the game is fun for reasons other than achievement -- because any game with any sort of achievement will always have people purchasing it to get to the top faster.

Exactly.

[Venkman]

If you're trying to solve anything, it should be making sure the game is fun for reasons other than achievement -- because any game with any sort of achievement will always have people purchasing it to get to the top faster.

Exactly what I said. It's not a problem that can be "solved" in the way some of the strongest anti-RMT folks seem to think of it. You need to remove game from it really. There's inequality in every game because there are some people better at it than others. The only real difference is how "better" is measured.

Dq that would help in some situations, but not all instances of RMT are people buying gold to be better than the Joneses. I'm thinking of in game massive money sinks, ala mounts. Everyone wants to save time, go faster, etc; it's not a "my friend has an epic flying mount and I don't," so much as, "it takes 10 minutes to get from A to B and I wish I could do it in 5." So you'd have to take things like that out too. But then, timesinks should have been on the chopping block years ago.

I put squarely back on the developers. Arbitrary time sinks are stupid. I agree with you.

But there's a difference between flying and ground mounts. Going from ground to air unlocks areas of the game for you, areas you need to hit to finish quests and run instances. But that's all they do (save a handful of fun repeatables). Once you get to these places, you realize it's mostly the same type of stuff except the occasional bombing run. WoW is still far and away a ground/planar game.

The only real required stuff is gear, enchants and rep-grinded consumables. And then, even if you top-out the AH and trades on purchasing all that, you then better have the friends/guild/alliance to actually go do something with it. And then, all you're really doing is getting better at doing the same thing over and over so you can progress to the next instance to do it again. And you're doing that at all partly because you saw other people do it, and know people who are.

WoW is at heart the very essence keeping up with the Joneses. But that's just because that's how most of the genre works

[Rendakor]

Agreed. Was just saying that there are instances of RMT that differed from that.

[tazelbain]

It may be impossible to solve, but negative consiqenses of RMT are real.  And they will drive people like me away.  I will not suffer a game filled with people working for a pay check.

Microscaction Puzzle Pirate server don't seem to have any RMT issue.  This seems pretty ideal to me.