AV since 2.3

[Zetor]

EOTS is a 100% mirror... but AB isn't, a competent horde team will always beat a competent alliance team by holding the iron triangle [smith, farm, mill] easily as they can get to the smith slightly faster, and keeping a roaming defense among these 3 nodes is very easy (just sit at the crossroads, the defenders at LM can basically call any attack in advance). But yeah, in 95% of all games [pug vs pug] this doesn't come into play, it's more about which side keeps sufficient defense, keeps pressure on enemy nodes, and calls incoming in advance [ie. not 1 second before the node is turned].

Alliance can't really do the opposite with smith-mine-stables, as mine can't call incomings until it's too late, and roaming defense between these 3 nodes is impractical unless they have slowfall. (which only two classes do, and they require reagents)


-- Z.

[Simond]

The thing with AB is that it looks like the blacksmith is the most important node, but it's actually the Lumbermill that decides matters.

All else being equal, if Alliance goes for the BS they lose. If Alliance goes Stables->Lumbermill->Farm (and ignores Blacksmith/Mine completely), they win.

It's a good job most of the Alliance are inept in BGs and keep going for the BS 90% of the time/defend the wrong graveyards in AV/go for flags instead of towers in EotS/etc etc.

[Phred]

I'm just sick of the fucking QQ from Alliance. When Horde was getting our asses kicked did we pick up our toys and run home? Did we boycott battlegrounds?

Yes, yes they did. Hprde never queued for AV until Blizz made losing give almost as much honor as winning. And the endless qq'ing about the bridge in AV was legendary.

For someone who claims to have played so long and alliance too you sure have a selective memory.

[Azaroth]

The thing with AB is that it looks like the blacksmith is the most important node, but it's actually the Lumbermill that decides matters.

All else being equal, if Alliance goes for the BS they lose. If Alliance goes Stables->Lumbermill->Farm (and ignores Blacksmith/Mine completely), they win.

It's a good job most of the Alliance are inept in BGs and keep going for the BS 90% of the time/defend the wrong graveyards in AV/go for flags instead of towers in EotS/etc etc.

I used to love AB but... I just can't do it as Alliance. I mean, sometimes I go in. And I try to herd the cats, I really do. But the natural disadvantage that the map puts Alliance at combined with the general terribleness of Alliance PUGs is too much to overcome.

[Chimpy]

The thing with AB is that it looks like the blacksmith is the most important node, but it's actually the Lumbermill that decides matters.

All else being equal, if Alliance goes for the BS they lose. If Alliance goes Stables->Lumbermill->Farm (and ignores Blacksmith/Mine completely), they win.

It's a good job most of the Alliance are inept in BGs and keep going for the BS 90% of the time/defend the wrong graveyards in AV/go for flags instead of towers in EotS/etc etc.

I used to love AB but... I just can't do it as Alliance. I mean, sometimes I go in. And I try to herd the cats, I really do. But the natural disadvantage that the map puts Alliance at combined with the general terribleness of Alliance PUGs is too much to overcome.

Man, I hate AB on alliance, and I never really liked it THAT much when I was on horde. But even the "premades" (we called them plow groups on Garona) I have been in on alliance are full of terribads who try to "mix it up" by sending different groups to different nodes every time and shit instead of just keeping a system and executing.

Could be worse, could be Eye of the Suck

[Azaroth]

EoTS is the worst.

I'm honestly back to WSG most days. I fucking own at it, I win all my games, so I keep doing it.

[LK]

go for flags instead of towers in EotS/etc etc.

How about this one? We managed to capture the three towers in EOTS initially and ignored the middle.  We gained a huge lead at first, but being uncontested in the middle, the Horde was able to quickly get flag captures uncontested.  We eventually lost the third node and fell back to 2/2, and were unable to regain the third tower, while the center continued to be Horde dominated.  They had 11 Flag captures that match, while we only had two (the two that I made).  Even after all that it was still a close game, with the flag caps accounting for more than half the points the Horde had.

You have to take advantage of the changing battlefield conditions.  If you own the middle, cap the damn flag and get that bonus, then have someone run the flag back.  One person on our team thought it was best to hold on the flag to "encourage" everyone to focus on towers.  Meanwhile we held the center on multiple occasions while it kept roughly at 2/2, with a small Alliance advantage.  Horde managed to sweep our territories since THEY focused on doing it and were doing a better job of mobilizing, eventually killed the flag carrier (after capping both or negating Alliance side areas while we were still in Fel Reaver Ruins) and started farming the flag again.

So, yeah.  Don't hold the flag "for the team", you dumb shit (the guy, not anyone here).

[Lightstalker]

So, post 2.3 I've been in two kinds of AV as alliance. 
1) Rush relief hut, work backwards after it caps until the horde push van and then pip Drek to end it.
2) Slow capping drive working south methodically.

The second one has only won once, because somehow that group of horde was worse than we were.
The first typically wins, as it respawns the jokers in the middle into a place they can help the side win (Drek's front porch).  When fewer than 15 push RH from the start it falls apart, but one way or the other that match will be over in 10-15 minutes.

Controlling where you rez is the key to herding the cats in AV, and to that end, picking up the graveyards in the middle is detrimental to success.  By taking RH first you secure your opportunity to win (or establish the fact of a quick loss) instead of concentrating on trying to pick up bonus honor on the way down.  If a few of the enemy are on the ball (e.g. about 8 of them are paying attention) they will send all your spread out forces back to the Aid Station.  That goes for either side, really.  If it wasn't so easy to cap the early bunker-tower-graveyard trio horde taking Aid Station would dominate more easily given the advantage of defending across the span.

AV will never really be about killing other players so long as killing the general ends the match.  If they really wanted it to be about killing other players your side would get bonus honor for each kill, e.g. the reinforcement pool is the total amount of honor you have at risk in the match and driving down the opponent's reinforcement pool is how you earn your bonus honor (be it from capping resource points (PvE focus) or just outright killing them en mass (PvP focus)). 

[Azaroth]

First, I hate the asshole who holds the flag "for the team" while doing jack shit but sitting on a pillar.

Second, don't fucking yell at me when I'm grabbing flags BY MYSELF while everyone else is going for towers. One man returning flags successfully is so motherfucking efficient it should make you explode.

Third, EVERY strategy people come up with is god damn retarded. You either know what to do and adapt or you fucking lose. End.

[Azaroth]

By the way, I figured out the definition of the term "Welfare Epics".

I'm using my old warrior at 69 in the 60-69 BGs to farm honor for S1 gear (Blacksmithing already raised for my weapon) as soon as I hit 70.

I'll be the most epicced out fresh 70 ever. I don't even play that much, but having a full S1 epics/DT warrior about five minutes after I hit 70 is fairly sweet.

[Morat20]

By the way, I figured out the definition of the term "Welfare Epics".

Welfare epics is a retarded fucking term invented by morons who feel their grind is the only "real, hardcore" grind, and thus only they actually DESERVE the best shit in the game.

Anyone using it seriously I generally consider a fucking retard, and their subsequent comments tend to bear that out.

Still, I admit it's nice -- my main is only 65 and I have enough honor saved (but not enough EoTS tokens -- I really haven't gotten into that one) to purchase a lot of S1 stuff. I just haven't done it because there's no point until I either cap honor or hit 70.

But fuck, I worked for that. I've been doing PvP since before battlegroups, and I don't AFK (I'd have more tokens, but I used to do turnins.), and even with my casual-ass PvPing, I have some 12 thousand or so kills, and a something like 200+ tokens sitting in the bank. And so far, all I've used it for was to buy a ring.

[ShenMolo]

When did f13 inherit generic fuckwits from the WoW boards?

This sounds like something you hear on the WoW boards. I mean really...whats up with the personal attacks? Fuckwit? Idiot? Stupid? Do you walk around barking out insults to everyone who disagrees with you? If not then why the hell do you do it while your at your keyboard?

[Phred]

By the way, I figured out the definition of the term "Welfare Epics".

Welfare epics is a retarded fucking term invented by morons who feel their grind is the only "real, hardcore" grind, and thus only they actually DESERVE the best shit in the game.

Actually the first use of the phrase was by the devs themselves when they were hyping the changes in series 3.

[Paelos]

When did f13 inherit generic fuckwits from the WoW boards?

This sounds like something you hear on the WoW boards. I mean really...whats up with the personal attacks? Fuckwit? Idiot? Stupid? Do you walk around barking out insults to everyone who disagrees with you? If not then why the hell do you do it while your at your keyboard?

Little hint for future reference around here. Don't Sirbruce the hell out of someone else's post in bold followed by L2P if you don't want to get called an idiot. Also, grow some thicker skin, Numbnuts, it's a debate about PvP. You should expect the general frothing you wouldn't see in other normal threads.

[Morat20]

By the way, I figured out the definition of the term "Welfare Epics".

Welfare epics is a retarded fucking term invented by morons who feel their grind is the only "real, hardcore" grind, and thus only they actually DESERVE the best shit in the game.

Actually the first use of the phrase was by the devs themselves when they were hyping the changes in series 3.

I stand by my assertation that whichever numbnuts said it was a total fucking retard, Dev or not. It's certainly been appropriated by retards.

Frankly, it makes pretty good sense -- if Arena gear is constantly inflating (which it is, if somewhat slowly) and PvP is heavily gear dependent, you've got to give people a leg up on it in the form of making older gear available through other channels.

[Phred]

By the way, I figured out the definition of the term "Welfare Epics".

Welfare epics is a retarded fucking term invented by morons who feel their grind is the only "real, hardcore" grind, and thus only they actually DESERVE the best shit in the game.

Actually the first use of the phrase was by the devs themselves when they were hyping the changes in series 3.

I stand by my assertation that whichever numbnuts said it was a total fucking retard, Dev or not. It's certainly been appropriated by retards.

Frankly, it makes pretty good sense -- if Arena gear is constantly inflating (which it is, if somewhat slowly) and PvP is heavily gear dependent, you've got to give people a leg up on it in the form of making older gear available through other channels.

I believe the original phrase was coined in reference to earning epics by losing every arena match.

[Chimpy]

I don't think the devs coined the term, as I had heard it long before Tigole made his "welfare epics" comment at blizzcon.

I just think it was not such a commonly used term before then.

[Threash]

I don't think the devs coined the term, as I had heard it long before Tigole made his "welfare epics" comment at blizzcon.

I just think it was not such a commonly used term before then.

And obviously the dev was using it in a sarcasting manner.

[Koyasha]

Personally, to 'fix' AV, I'd throw all the NPC's back in, just like AV 1.0, bump the number of reinforcements up to 2500 and have each NPC death kill a reinforcement, lieutenant deaths kill something like 25 or 50, captain about 150 and towers 100 or so each.  Forget having the generals give an instant win, hell, take the generals out for all it matters - just make it about reducing reinforcements to zero.  Then make supply runs from the mines able to replenish reinforcements at a maximum rate (no more spawn than X) so that even with a focused effort to replenish reinforcements as fast as possible, any competent enemy offense would be able to whittle down reinforcements faster than you can replace them.  And make Balinda as tough as Galvangar, give her a fireball or something that casts at roughly the same speed Galv melees at, and an Arcane Explosion that does as much damage as Galv's whirlwind.

As for rewards, like Lightstalker said - tie them directly to reinforcements.  Make 5 reinforcements = 1 honor, so that an AV where nobody uses the mines, the winning side gets exactly 500 honor (plus HK's) and the losing side gets somewhat less.  Furthermore, tie reinforcements directly to Marks of Honor?  Why?  Cause these games would be longer, maybe lasting an hour or two depending on how determined the defenders are with their mine and replenishing reinforcements.  So, about every 1000 reinforcements - or on an individual basis, every 200 bonus honor you get, you get an AV mark of honor.  No need to wait until the battle is over.  And also give one extra at the end of the battle to the winning side only.  People who can't be in there for a full game would still get both honor and marks.

This would make the whole battle about pvp again (ironically, considering it means putting in all those NPC's again), for the most part, with the majority of the fighting taking place in and around the Field of Strife.  People wouldn't be able to rush into enemy territory because of the NPC's, so they'd have to form a front line which you can then fight at.  The reinforcements idea at its core is brilliant - they just have to do it right to make it work with this battleground.  The terrain was designed for way more than 40 people on each side, that's why you need the NPC's to make it a proper battle.

[Ragnoros]

Let me try that again. Did someone make a deal to not actually defend? Because on my BG seems like horde is just rushing for no reason and have lost every game today. However there are like 12 AVs going at once, up from 2.

[ajax34i]

There was a blue post a while ago (can't find it) suggesting that the Horde throw the Alliance a bone, in the form of not going for a flawless victory every time, so that the Alliance can get some honor out of matches they lose.  Maybe people on your server read that and thought it was a good idea.

[Morat20]

Let me try that again. Did someone make a deal to not actually defend? Because on my BG seems like horde is just rushing for no reason and have lost every game today. However there are like 12 AVs going at once, up from 2.

As I understand it, the current situation is like this:

On 9 or 10 of the Battlegroups, the Horde does not force a turtle -- they basically cede Iceblood/Galv and allow Alliance to ride past SH, and allow it to become a race. Both sides end up with roughly the same amount of honor (although I think Horde actually manages a bit more, even on a loss) and the Alliance tends to win regularly, and the games are over in 15 minutes. Queue times are small and multiple games are running.

On two or three of the 12, the Horde routinely forces a turtle and the Alliance tends to lose. The games take 40 minutes (Horde holds SH, bottles the Alliance along the SH/SP road, and easily defends IB/Galv), the end honor is something like 580 to 20, and the queue times have shot up to an hour+ as Alliance has stopped queuing.

It's a matter of Horde choice, not Alliance tactics. I've been in a couple of the 580-20 games, and there is literally no real way past the Horde at SH. What few get by aren't enough to take Galv, IB Tower or IB from even a pair of Horde defenders. And when you die, you rez back at SP -- and trying to get past the Horde zerg at SH isn't possible in any real numbers.

All it really takes is 10 Horde defenders. Their offensive Zerg snags SH bunker and then pushes on SH GY and three people peel off to kill Balinda. They're rezzing and running from IB, so their dead hit SH quickly. The 10 Horde defenders easily hold at Galv or the tower, and Alliance dead are rezzing at SH (or SP, depending on how the SH fight is going) for the first several minutes (assuming no Horde bothers reflipping SF). The Horde simply get to the IB chokepoint instantly, while Alliance has to run past the Horde Zerg at SH.

Horde's early field advantage is just insurmountable, if they choose to press it.

[Fraeg]

I don't think the devs coined the term, as I had heard it long before Tigole made his "welfare epics" comment at blizzcon.

I just think it was not such a commonly used term before then.

I had the term used about me and my druid when i would drag it to MC a few years back, so yeah it has been kicking around for awhile.  How it applied to my druid was even though i was a shit healer (read ninja afk) everyone knew i would walk out of their with epics because i was the only druid in the raid.

[LK]

Ok, Alliance is  .

I just played Alterac Valley today due to Holiday.  After the organized team left (2-1 record), it was a crap shoot for 8 games as Alliance got stream rolled by Horde. I keep playing because I didn't get my Daily until after the org group left (we started at 2 am).

God damn.  God damn.

[Chimpy]

You get almost 100 honor from just being in the zone when it finishes on a holiday weekend.

Blizz made a big post (copied at www.mmo-champion.com) that says exactly how much honor you get per objective on regular and holiday for all the BGs.

[Morat20]

Well, I made the mistake of reading the WoW forums to see what everyone thinks over there.

First off, I made the mistake of believing anyone "thought".

I cannot count the number of self-proclaimed military geniuses who cannot seem to grasp the notion that a "chokepoint" or a "bottleneck" works both ways. That, in fact, whether it's an advantage or a disadvantage depends entirely on who needs to pass through it.

It appears most battlegroups have settled on a race (maximum honor for both sides, minimum queue time -- basically no defense on either side). Those that haven't are seeing the worst results -- huge queue times horde side, minimal honor Alliance side.

I'm a bit glad my main is on Ruin, which is a "Race" battlegroup -- a friend of mine is on one of the non-race Battlegroups, and it's a clusterfuck. He's horde, and his queue times were unbelievable. Judging from the comments from his fellow Hordies, it's not going to change for Alliance anytime soon -- but most of them can't seem to understand why Alliance won't queue up for a 600-0 honor smashing.

[Calantus]

EoTS is the worst.

I'm honestly back to WSG most days. I fucking own at it, I win all my games, so I keep doing it.

I have a 90-95% winrate at PUG EoTS right now. No bullshit. It's by far the best map to be a general in and the reason is the way capping works. In AB the enemy needs 10 seconds on a flag and you lose a node. Nodes are also very difficult to take if defended because all they have to do is stop you from having 10 seconds on the flag. EoTS is not like this at all, it's all about concentration of forces, feints, taking the right bases, and generally funneling the enemy. I start off by telling alliance to go straight for BT and FR and we usually take 1 because a bunch of horde will go for the flag and the usual zerg mentality of PUGs will underman one of the nodes. From there we have 3 nodes and are likely to win. If horde send out a small force, reinforce that node. If horde send out a large force, hit the node they just left. If horde go for the flag keep hitting their node, if they don't go for the flag then you get free caps. If we only have 2 nodes I'll send troops into one of their nodes then when that is reinforced I will send everyone to the other node. The stragglers at the first node will hold up horde (gotta kill everyone amirite? cant leave the other 10 people to fight off the last 3 ally) while all the ressers and any flag idiots or defenders you can get to go there will overpower the other node. Never hold, always be hitting something, PUGs don't listen if there's something to fight nearby so making sure you're always sticking guys in their face means the opposition can't organise. I also ALWAYS say "ignore the flag" even though it is worth getting because I know at least one person will ignore me and go for it. :P

If one group is semi-organized and the other is not the side with the organisation will always win. In AB you have ninjas and ineffective flag defence fucking it all up. That's why I currently love EoTS.

Ok, Alliance is  .

I just played Alterac Valley today due to Holiday.  After the organized team left (2-1 record), it was a crap shoot for 8 games as Alliance got stream rolled by Horde. I keep playing because I didn't get my Daily until after the org group left (we started at 2 am).

God damn.  God damn.

All the good alliance have left AV on the affected battlegroups. What you're seeing is the AFKers, those who need marks (read: shittily geared players), and the PVP purists... and everyone is disallusioned. Anyone with any competancy and PVP experience has 100 AV marks on their geared characters, is sick of having to carry AFKers and idiots in a BG the horde have an advantage in, and can earn more honor in premade EoTS/AB/WSG. Personally I wouldn't touch AV with a barge-pole when we were winning it if not for the honor carrot. Now we lose it all the time and don't get honor. Count me out.

[Fordel]

Nightfall has happily reverted to a pre patch state in AV.

IE: Everyone ignore the other side outside of tower recapping to be an asshole and both teams come out with 300+ honour every 15-25 minutes.


Fastest way to piss off half a dozen horde? Retake SH Bunker.

Fastest way to piss of two dozen alliance? Retake SH Graveyard.

 

[Azaroth]

I'm a bit glad my main is on Ruin, which is a "Race" battlegroup -- a friend of mine is on one of the non-race Battlegroups, and it's a clusterfuck. He's horde, and his queue times were unbelievable. Judging from the comments from his fellow Hordies, it's not going to change for Alliance anytime soon -- but most of them can't seem to understand why Alliance won't queue up for a 600-0 honor smashing.

Well, Ruin just changed as of a couple days ago. Horde absolutely do not step foot into AV without a premade. It's actually kind of amazing to see every single game premade vs. pug. As such, I've stopped going into AV, and so has most of everyone else. Queue times have jumped massively and are continuing to rise.

Problem is, horde ALWAYS wins EOTS/WSG/AB. So I find myself wondering why the hell I log in, being that I don't raid (and have no intention to, since the gear is good for raiding and nothing else so it's basically a huge fucking waste of time).

[Xanthippe]

Reroll horde on The Venture Co.  All the cool kids are doing it!

[Azaroth]

I wouldn't spend time leveling another character in this game if someone paid me.

[Arrrgh]

If horde start to constantly win in your BG their queue times will go straight to hell. It's hard to get a premade into AV once you have two hour queue times.

In Stormstrike (horde have long queues, alliance have insta queues) it's easy for the alliance to get a premade into AV since it's so easy to re-queue if not everyone makes it in.

Then you get these happy threads from the horde after they queue for two hours and get a zero bonus honor game.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=3547603847&sid=1

[Xanthippe]

Isn't Stormstrike the battlegroup that the horde were crowing about how they were getting 600 honor and allowing the alliance no honor?

Oh the irony.

[Threash]

Isn't Stormstrike the battlegroup that the horde were crowing about how they were getting 600 honor and allowing the alliance no honor?

Oh the irony.

The best part is the guy who started the thread is on the first screen shot saying "send them home with no honor".