The Mitchell Report

[Margalis]

The full report PDF is available, the list of names is guys they could really pin down with things like signed checks.

What does it mean? Nothing. Baseball isn't dirtier than football and basketball probably isn't too far behind. It really says more about the public at this point than baseball itself.

Athletes use illegal performance-enhancing substances. News flash.

[HaemishM]

Big Mac stopped playing years ago, I think they only mentioned current players. 

It's odd, really.  What he was taking was both legal and allowed by the rules at the time, yet everyone treats him like crap.  I feel the same for Barry Bonds.  Yeah, he's an ass, but so are half the guys in baseball, and a good chunk of them are probably on HGH as well. 

Actually, according to the ESPN story, steroids were not allowed by the rules, except in cases of a valid prescription for them, which these guys did not have.

Some of the steroids Bonds took were to recover from injury quicker, not just for strength building.

A few names surprised me on the list, and some made me think that there are probably more baseball players ON steroids than not these days.

[schild]

Rick Ankiel

So much for that feel good story, ESPN. 

Personally, I'm a little shocked that schild knows the names of baseball players.

I have a decade long collection of Topps and Upper deck trading cards. Probably a few thousand worth. I used to be more into baseball than anyone on this board.

Not kidding.

[Nebu]

I used to be more into baseball than anyone on this board.

Not kidding.

Well... almost anyone. 

[Margalis]

I feel like baseball is getting a bad rap because there is at least some effort to come clean. How many football players are not on something? Five?

[Nebu]

Why do people care if athletes use steroids? 

ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?

[Teleku]

One of the draws of baseball was that it was still suppose to be the American pasttime sport that hadn't fallen into the professional sports deuchbaggery that all the other pro sports in the world had.  This image was badly hit with the Baseball strike (it was suppose to be about the game, not demanding even more millions than you already make), and it took the damn sport a decade to recover after that.  This is a continuation of that, I believe, because people expect most other pro sports players to be hopped up on steroids, and not precious baseball (considering the evidence in the past, a rather naive view).

While this will hurt, I AM happy they are finally cracking down on it, and hope they continue on to more hardcore policies concerning this.  It can only help the sport, for the fans, its image as a whole, and the actual game itself.

Everybody else just continues on with the status quo.

[Llava]

If Major League Baseball vanished from the face of this Earth I would not be affected at all.

I might save a couple seconds from the shorter sports segments on news programs.

[El Gallo]

I skimmed the report and, unless I saw the only stupid parts, it's pretty lightweight.  "Joe Blow didn't talk to me.  Joe Blow didn't answer my written questions.  On page 35 of Game of Shadows, they said Joe Blow did roids in a blue car.  Some people say Joe Blow once rode in a blue car."

The whole steroids issue kind of blows my mind.  I mean, does anyone really think top-level athletes don't take all sorts of things to improve their prowess?  Shit, everyone has known that amphetamine use has been RAMPANT in baseball forhalf a fucking century now.  Plus all the supplements people take to help with strength training.  Nobody cares.  Even aside from drugs - players with 20/20 vision are getting eye surgery to get better-than-perfect-human vision.  Is there outrage that Tiger Woods doing that will violate the sanctity of Jack Nicholas' records?  Not a peep.  But say the word "steroids" and all of a sudden its OMG FOR TEH CHILDREN ITS THE END OF AMERICA !!!111!one!1 

Is it just because "steroids" evokes TEH EVAL RUSSIANS stealing Olympic medals from America's sweethearts?  I swear you could invent something identical to steroids tomorrow, call it "ambianex" or whatever, and people would not give two shits about it - it's just the evil "steroid" word.

Unless, of course, people could use it as an excuse to get Bonds.  Which is pretty much what the steroids in baseball histrionics are all about, getting Bonds.  McGwire had the shit open for all to see in his goddamn locker during his record-breaking season and nobody gave two shits, even after it was reported because he was a lovable, rolly-poly homer king that was friendly with the press.

[SnakeCharmer]

Lets see....

Effects of lasix = better vision

Effects of steroids = major effects of anabolic steroid use include liver tumors, jaundice, fluid retention, and high blood pressure. Additional side effects include the following: for men shrinking of the testicles, reduced sperm count, infertility, baldness, development of breasts; for women growth of facial hair, changes in or cessation of the menstrual cycle, deepened voice; for adolescents growth halted prematurely through premature skeletal maturation and accelerated puberty changes. Researchers report that users may suffer from paranoid jealousy, extreme irritability, delusions, and impaired judgment stemming from feelings of invincibility.

Comparing the effects of lasix to steroids?  Really?  I mean, WHAT?  It's way past absurd right into touching stupidest fucking thing ever category.  The minute that Tiger Woods lasixrages and beats his wife and child to death with a 7 iron, or pulls out a 9mm pistol and shoots a fan/photographer for taking a picture in the middle of a backswing, let me know.

I think you're entire post is missing something.  I'm not quite sure what it is. 

Oh yeah. 

The green color.

[El Gallo]

Of course they don't have similar side effects.  Also, one of them begins with an "L" and the other begins with "S", which is an equally relevant distinction.

Most people aren't raging that Bonds increased his chance of suffering a reduced sperm count.  Bob Costas and George Will have not been blovating for 5 straight years that Bonds destroyed the moral fabric of America because they are concerned about Bonds' health.  People aren't lobbying to have Bonds banned from the Hall of Fame because he might have an increased risk of high blood pressure.  They are raging and blovating and lobbying because he "cheated" by procuring an unnatural advantage.  If they didn't, they wouldn't be couching their arguments in terms of how Bonds pissed all over Hank Aaron every chance they get (unless they just think Hank will be really, really, really sad if he hears that Bonds suffers from "fluid retention" in 20 years). 

There's also the fact that amphetamine use can have some not-so-hot side effects as well, everyone knows a ton of baseball players have been doing it since at least the 50's, and nobody has ever given a fuck about it.  The outrage isn't about side effects.

(even if side effects really were the source of the outrage about steroids in baseball, I'd take those risks over a lot of shit on this list http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/lasik/risks.htm  Do I want Phil Mickelson man boobs?  Fuck no, but I'll take them over "Some patients lose lines of vision on the vision chart that cannot be corrected with glasses, contact lenses, or surgery as a result of treatment" any day, especially considering "the long-term safety and effectiveness of LASIK surgery is not known" since they haven't even been doing it for 10 years yet)

[Abagadro]

I disagree with that in some respects in that there is a trickle down effect with youth sports. If roids are seen as the gateway to better performance and high school and younger start emulating things to the detriment of their health, that is a real problem. I know that sounds like a Mrs. Lovejoy "think of the children" argument, but when you have idolized sports figures using such things that are biologically guaranteed to fuck you up, I think you have crossed over into territory where that concept may be legit.

[Paelos]

People hate steroids in baseball for the following reasons:

Baseball isn't an endurance sport.
Barry Bonds is the leader in Home Runs.
Barry Bonds is a complete dickhead in the media.
People hate KNOWING that their record-breakers aren't working off normal human conditions.
People hate KNOWING that record-breakers in the modern era aren't trying to hide their usage.
People hate KNOWING that baseball is about money instead of sport, patriotism, and apple pie.

I'm a huge baseball fan. I'm a huge sports fan. This doesn't shock me and I want Barry Bonds thrown in jail. Still, it saddens me that it had to come to this and that it's not even close to over. You think we won't see this in the NFL soon with all the crazy records being broken? You're wrong.

[cmlancas]

I just want to point out (and I'm not condoning or supporting steroid use) that hitting a baseball on a professional level is incredibly difficult. Steroids cannot increase your eye-hand coordination ability. Personally, when I look at people who have used steroids in that list, such as David Justice or Miguel Tejada, I can't help but remember they were good average hitters. Steroids ischeating, but all of these players were great enough to play in the MLB. I know I wasn't good enough.

[Phildo]

I hate Bonds because the Pirates haven't had a winning season since he left the team.  15 years ago.  He deprived me of growing up with a decent baseball team.

[UD_Delt]

(even if side effects really were the source of the outrage about steroids in baseball, I'd take those risks over a lot of shit on this list http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/lasik/risks.htm  Do I want Phil Mickelson man boobs?  Fuck no, but I'll take them over "Some patients lose lines of vision on the vision chart that cannot be corrected with glasses, contact lenses, or surgery as a result of treatment" any day, especially considering "the long-term safety and effectiveness of LASIK surgery is not known" since they haven't even been doing it for 10 years yet)

Huh... it hasn't been 10 years yet? I'm not going to bother to look it up so guess I'll take your word for it but I had Lasik surgery about 6 years ago now and I know I wasn't exactly on the cutting edge of the shit.

[naum]

I hate Bonds because the Pirates haven't had a winning season since he left the team.  15 years ago.  He deprived me of growing up with a decent baseball team.

Bonds was just as contemptible as a Pirate. I remember defending him when most of Pittsburgh was bemoaning his strikeout frequency but worse, his penchant for watching home run balls that didn't turn out to be home run balls. And as far as greats that donned a Pirates uniform, he still trails a few others, even with his possession of raw numbers.

* Roberto Clemente - lifetime .500 World Series batting average, an amazing arm

* Willie Stargell - took his team to capture two world series titles, as well as a bunch of NL East division titles,

Beloved in Pittsburgh for his style of play and affable manner, Stargell was known for hitting monstrous home runs, including 7 of the 16 balls ever hit completely out of Forbes Field and several of the upper-tier home runs at its successor, Three Rivers Stadium. At one time, Stargell held the record for the longest homer in nearly half of the National League parks. Standing 6 feet 2 inches, Stargell seemed larger, with his long arms and unique bat-handling practice of holding only the knob of the bat with his lower hand combining to provide extra bat extension, Stargell's swings seemed designed to hit home runs of the Ruthian variety. When most batters would use a simple lead-weighted bat in the on-deck circle, Stargell took to warming up with a sledgehammer, adding another layer of intimidation. While standing in the batter's box, he would windmill his bat until the pitcher started his windup.

He was the only player to ever hit a ball out of Dodger Stadium twice; only four home runs have ever left the premises at Chavez Ravine. Stargell's first came on August 5, 1969 off Alan Foster and measured 506 feet—to date, the longest home run ever hit at Dodger Stadium. The second, on May 8, 1973 against Andy Messersmith, measured 493 feet. Dodger starter Don Sutton said of Stargell, "I never saw anything like it. He doesn't just hit pitchers, he takes away their dignity."

Bonds never took his team to final victory.

Yeah, lots of people that's not a fair comparison. And yes, that is true for a good player, not a great player. A player that is the best on his team should be able to power his team to a championship, at least once in his career, barring some weird statistical outlier. But Bonds has been on good teams and went to the dance with all the talent to take a title.

[Murgos]

(even if side effects really were the source of the outrage about steroids in baseball, I'd take those risks over a lot of shit on this list http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/lasik/risks.htm  Do I want Phil Mickelson man boobs?  Fuck no, but I'll take them over "Some patients lose lines of vision on the vision chart that cannot be corrected with glasses, contact lenses, or surgery as a result of treatment" any day, especially considering "the long-term safety and effectiveness of LASIK surgery is not known" since they haven't even been doing it for 10 years yet)

Huh... it hasn't been 10 years yet? I'm not going to bother to look it up so guess I'll take your word for it but I had Lasik surgery about 6 years ago now and I know I wasn't exactly on the cutting edge of the shit.

Guy next to me in the waiting room lost the use of one eye due to the surgery.  I decided to wear glasses a few more years and left.

[cmlancas]

A player that is the best on his team should be able to power his team to a championship, at least once in his career, barring some weird statistical outlier.

I can agree with that. At first I was going to argue Alex Rodriguez, but I'm sure he'll win a championship with NY sometime in the next ten years. Pujols was the first person who came to mind that powered his team (arguably) to a championship.

[UD_Delt]

Guy next to me in the waiting room lost the use of one eye due to the surgery.  I decided to wear glasses a few more years and left.

For me it was probably one of the best decisions I've ever made to get it done. I couldn't be happier with the results.

Before the surgery I was legally blind without my glasses (worse than 20/400), I couldn't really wear contacts because of a severe astigmatism, I had to wear hard gas-permeable lenses which I just never adjusted to. After the surgery I was 20/20 in one eye and 20/25 in the other. It may be slightly worse now like 20/30 in both eyes but I still don't need glasses or contacts. I'll probably have to go in for another round of surgery or start wearing glasses again in 4-5 years, but it will never get as bad as I used to be (I hope).

[Mrbloodworth]

Why do people care if athletes use steroids? 

ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?

Im going to have to agree, who cares?

I am still waiting for inmate-thunderdome-randomly-exploding-foot/base-balls-runningman, hour.

[SnakeCharmer]

Heh.

Apparently a couple people haven't played team sports.

No matter how great a player is, that player isn't the one pitching every pitch of every game, making every infield/outfield play, and batting 1 through 9 in the line up.  That player can be God's gift to the game, and if the rest of the team is average, it won't matter.  Sure, a great player can push a really good team over the edge, by being the final piece in the puzzle.  But a great player won't turn the Pirates into world beaters.

Winning is hard.  Winning championships is harder.  It takes every player performing at top level for the team to perform its best and to win.

Bonds played on some pretty lousy teams during his career.  And up until the Yankees, so did Rodriguez. 

Ugh, and don't EVEN get me started on Rodriguez...I'm too freakin' disgusted at the state of baseball (even before all this) and am likely to go on a rant of epic proportions.

[cmlancas]

Ugh, and don't EVEN get me started on Rodriguez...I'm too freakin' disgusted at the state of baseball (even before all this) and am likely to go on a rant of epic proportions.

  Whaaaa? Have you forgotten the Seattle Mariners so quickly when they had Griffey Jr., ARod, and The Big Unit?

[El Gallo]

I disagree with that in some respects in that there is a trickle down effect with youth sports. If roids are seen as the gateway to better performance and high school and younger start emulating things to the detriment of their health, that is a real problem.

That's certainly true and a legit concern. However, I don't think that is what is driving most of the hysteria (but it does frustrated jocks in Congress an excuse to mug for the cameras). I don't think pony-leagures taking speed is great for their health, either (though 95% are probably on adderall anyway because they brought home a B- once).

Huh... it hasn't been 10 years yet?

The FDA link to the risks I posted notes "The first laser was approved for LASIK eye surgery in 1998. Therefore, the long-term safety and effectiveness of LASIK surgery is not known." That surprised me as well. Maybe they were doing it in other contries well before they were approved in the US?

No matter how great a player is, that player isn't the one pitching every pitch of every game, making every infield/outfield play, and batting 1 through 9 in the line up.  That player can be God's gift to the game, and if the rest of the team is average, it won't matter.

I completely agree.  Especially in baseball, where you get, what, 4 at bats and maybe field 5 balls a game (or pitch every 5th game or so)?  Ted Williams, Ernie Banks, and Ty Cobb never won championships, but I think they are all great baseball players.

I think it's more fair to say that about basketball, where you are 20% of the team and play most of each game. Maybe hockey as well, but that's pretty iffy.  But not baseball or football.

I hate Bonds because the Pirates haven't had a winning season since he left the team.  15 years ago.  He deprived me of growing up with a decent baseball team.

             
We're never going to be good ever again, are we?
          

[SnakeCharmer]

Griffey Jr spent a fair amount of time on the DL during that run, if I remember right.  If he could have stayed healthy, and been on some better teams, his stats would be otherworldly.  

Side note:  KGJr has THE sweetest swing in baseball.  Ever.

The Unit was the only pitcher the Mariners had at the time.

[cmlancas]

They had Moyer too. Man, that's twice in a row. :o

[SnakeCharmer]

I disagree with that in some respects in that there is a trickle down effect with youth sports. If roids are seen as the gateway to better performance and high school and younger start emulating things to the detriment of their health

Was thinking about this earlier this morning..

The trickle down effect is that players will take the view that they *have* to resort to using steroids to compete, to have a shot at the show.  And further, when you get to the show, you have to start doing everything you can to stay there, because there is *always* someone waiting to replace you.  So you do whatever it is you have to do to get the edge, because you *know* the person below you is doing it.  

It's a dangerous box, to be sure.  And something needs to be done yesterday.

[SnakeCharmer]

They had Moyer too. Man, that's twice in a row. :o

That was, what?  Early/mid 90's? 

I can't remember what I had for breakfest this morning, much less that part of my life that was filled with beer and boobies and parties and my own college baseball career.

[naum]

Heh.

Apparently a couple people haven't played team sports.

No matter how great a player is, that player isn't the one pitching every pitch of every game, making every infield/outfield play, and batting 1 through 9 in the line up.  That player can be God's gift to the game, and if the rest of the team is average, it won't matter.  Sure, a great player can push a really good team over the edge, by being the final piece in the puzzle.  But a great player won't turn the Pirates into world beaters.

Winning is hard.  Winning championships is harder.  It takes every player performing at top level for the team to perform its best and to win.

Bonds played on some pretty lousy teams during his career.  And up until the Yankees, so did Rodriguez. 

Sorry, Bonds played on some good teams, nearly as much as he played on poor teams. Even the Pirates when he played for them won divisions in 90-92 and contended in 88. With the Giants, likewise.

A great player inspires his teammates and the level he plays at is reciprocated by them to a varying degree.

And Bonds postseason statistics suck.

Yes, I acknowledge the statistical outliers like Ernie Banks or Archie Manning that did play on crappy teams for the entire duration of their career. Bonds doesn't fit that bill.

His HR record is his and I give him that, roids or no roids. But's he still a loser.

[cmlancas]

I don't know. I played with a few kids in high school who were on track to play professionally. I really don't believe that steroids are trickling down. I will say, and I've witnessed this personally, that there is an increased emphasis on drugs such as Adderall and Vioxx (or whatever the safe arthritis drug is now) instead of HGH. Where the hell would a minor get HGH anyway?

[SnakeCharmer]

I don't know. I played with a few kids in high school who were on track to play professionally. I really don't believe that steroids are trickling down. I will say, and I've witnessed this personally, that there is an increased emphasis on drugs such as Adderall and Vioxx (or whatever the safe arthritis drug is now) instead of HGH. Where the hell would a minor get HGH anyway?

Dunno how old you are, so I have to ask when you played with them?  When I played college ball from '91-'95, I knew *several* guys on our team, as well as other teams that I played summer ball with that were juicing (a decadianabol (sp?) stack and winstrol V were favorites).  I thought about it, to be honest, and the temptation was certainly there.  But I was smart enough to realize the consequences were far greater than the reward.  Plus, I've got mitral valve prolapse and really didn't want my heart to explode - which steroids may or may not make it do, but I wasn't going to take the chance.

As far as getting HGH as a minor?  Heh.  Head down to your local musclehead gym.  Internet.  Take a roadtrip to Mexico.  The coach.

[HaemishM]

Where the hell would a minor get HGH anyway?

The same type of place they get pot, or coke or alcohol. Somebody knows somebody who knows somebody. The Internet just makes it easier to get now.

[cmlancas]

It just seemed foreign to me. I played in a region where quite a few players make it higher-up, soz I figured I'd know a little something about it. I see your argument now.

[SnakeCharmer]

Hell, I could get it for you.  Would take me all of 30 minutes.  You could have it by tomorrow if you wanted to pay the overnight shipping.

Exchange a couple PMs here, <here's my paypal addy>.

Boom.  Done.

[Phildo]

Hell, I could get it for you.  Would take me all of 30 minutes.  You could have it by tomorrow if you wanted to pay the overnight shipping.

Exchange a couple PMs here, <here's my paypal addy>.

Boom.  Done.

"You want a toe? I can get you a toe, believe me. There are ways, Dude. You don't wanna know about it, believe me."