Grunge Music Sissy Slapfight

[Sky]

I've enjoyed some of Love's music, something I can't say about Britney. Many musicians lie, cheat, steal and blow their way to success. "I sold out long before you ever even heard my name. I sold my soul to make a record and then you bought one. So shut up and buy our new record." - Maynard from Tool on their first EP.

Murder? Shut the fuck up, man.

[Signe]

You are very angsty, Grand Design.  I like Courtney Love.  She's feisty.  Anyway, after working in the horrible world of music for as long as I did, you'll find those avenues to success aren't uncommon.  Well, maybe not murder but then I don't believe she murdered her hubby.  HE sure fucked the rest of the band out any sort of revenue from all their hard work, though, didn't he?  That's music life!  HA!

SKY!!!  I told you to stop sneaking in when I'm typing and STOPSTEALINGMYTHOUGHTS!  I hate when you do that.

[Engels]

  I like Courtney Love.  She's feisty. 

Signe, have you actually met her? My gf used to hang out with her, and she'd probably agree with GD, cept maybe for the murder part. But aparently, she's such a tit, murder would probably be a nice improvement over her actual character.

[Signe]

No, I haven't met her.  I avoid celebs like the spontaneously flammable material they are, especially musicians.  Of course, I don't have to worry about running into any since I gave up working for a life of tidying up and playing games.  I mostly just meant that she cracks me up.  I don't feel sorry for her or anything.  She seems to be able to take care of herself.  I also like some of her stuff.  I sort of do feel sorry for Brittney Spears, however.  She seems sad and sick and all used up.  When I was her age I was having a blast.

[Merusk]

HE sure fucked the rest of the band out any sort of revenue from all their hard work, though, didn't he?  That's music life!  HA!

Dave Ghrol should say a little thank-you prayer to Kurt every day for the rest of his life.  He's much better off now than I think he would have been otherwise.

[Endie]

HE sure fucked the rest of the band out any sort of revenue from all their hard work, though, didn't he?  That's music life!  HA!

Dave Ghrol should say a little thank-you prayer to Kurt every day for the rest of his life.  He's much better off now than I think he would have been otherwise.

That's harsh on Grohl, who is a talented (and far more productive) songwriter in his own right.  Look at Novoselic, by comparison: while not denigrating him for pursuing his more idiosyncratic vision, there is a valid argument that he would never have achieved great fame alone.

Our Kurt wrote one damned good album, two fairly good ones and one pretty crap one with a good track on it.  Now admittedly that is one damned good album, two fairly good ones and one pretty crap one with a good track on it more than me, but since he died he's spiralled up to godlike status whereas when alive he was recognised as important but one of several  groups making music that was just as good.  It's like Jim Morrison: at the time the Doors weren't particularly huge but, having wasted his talent and shuffled off the mortal coil while young, suddenly he was this visionary talent that everyone re-wrote their cvs to have loved all along.

Cobhain was really a great musician and a father who fucked over his kid and squandered his talent because he was a stupid, selfish junkie, and, as a talentless individual who will never have a fraction of what he threw away, that makes me regard him a touch more harshly.

Oh, and "Smells Like Teen Spirit" - good song - should have a big section in the liner notes saying thank-you to The Pixies for Gigantic.  There, I said it.  Nirvana didn't revolutionise music, they helped it evolve in a direction it was already moving.  They built on the Pixies, Mudhoney, Dinosaur Jr and others and had a nice line in junkie chic and excellent marketing at just the right time.

Anyway, Grohl has shown that he'd have made a shitload of money himself, writing some very nice (some very nice) rock/pop songs.  Plus, he's not thrown it all away, which must count for something.

[Grand Design]

I've enjoyed some of Love's music, something I can't say about Britney.

You are comparing Crapples and Shitoranges. 

Murder? Shut the fuck up, man.

Ok.  But only because you fucking asked so fucking nicely.

You are very angsty, Grand Design.  I like Courtney Love.  She's feisty.

Hmm.  So I need to work on my Feist and tone down the Angst?

I don't believe she murdered her hubby.

Honestly, neither do I.  But she was bound and determined to achieve success in any way possible.  Read her notes, letters and diaries.  Hell, read her lyrics.  So maybe she didn't pull the trigger, but are you claiming that she wasn't in the room wearing pom poms and cheering him on?  I think she sent out invitations and prepared punch and pie.



This is the Britney Spears thread.

Let's keep it classless.

[Merusk]

HE sure fucked the rest of the band out any sort of revenue from all their hard work, though, didn't he?  That's music life!  HA!

Dave Ghrol should say a little thank-you prayer to Kurt every day for the rest of his life.  He's much better off now than I think he would have been otherwise.

That's harsh on Grohl, who is a talented (and far more productive) songwriter in his own right.  Look at Novoselic, by comparison: while not denigrating him for pursuing his more idiosyncratic vision, there is a valid argument that he would never have achieved great fame alone....

Anyway, Grohl has shown that he'd have made a shitload of money himself, writing some very nice (some very nice) rock/pop songs.  Plus, he's not thrown it all away, which must count for something.

Given some of the rabid fanboism Nirvana still gets, I can understand where you THINK I was coming from, but I wasn't.  I was saying that Dave's much better off away from Nirvana than he would be if the band still exsisted, because his talent was obviously wasted there as 2nd fiddle.  Almost every time I hear a Foo Fighter's song I think, "If Kurt haddn't offed himself we'd never have heard this.  That would have been a shame."   It wasn't a diss on Grohl. 

[Signe]

I don't know.  If Cobain had lived the band might have changed and become something even better than Foo Fighters.  Dave Ghrol  was one of three extremely talented men in a band who had three members.  The last record Nirvana made was their best, in my opinion, and the music already showed the signs of change.  I probably would have been more interested in seeing where Nirvana went rather than becoming a fan of Foo Fighters... which I am, btw.

[Endie]

Given some of the rabid fanboism Nirvana still gets, I can understand where you THINK I was coming from, but I wasn't.  I was saying that Dave's much better off away from Nirvana than he would be if the band still exsisted, because his talent was obviously wasted there as 2nd fiddle.  Almost every time I hear a Foo Fighter's song I think, "If Kurt haddn't offed himself we'd never have heard this.  That would have been a shame."   It wasn't a diss on Grohl. 

Oh, I totally get that now.  I agree.

[stray]

I don't know.  If Cobain had lived the band might have changed and become something even better than Foo Fighters.

I have a feeling that Kurt was transforming into Woody Guthrie towards the end there. Some hootenanny shit or something. Grohl probably would have left anyways.

[Sky]

Dave Ghrol  was one of three extremely talented men in a band who had three members.

The bass player was a talentless hack.

Dave Grohl is talented, Foo is ok, though he's not the songwriter Cobain was.

[Selby]

The bass player was a talentless hack.

Harsh, but I can understand as following the root notes of the guitar does not an innovative bass player make.  What he liked to do just wasn't popular with many people at all, hence no one bought it and record labels dropped him.  Dave Grohl knows how to write catchy rock songs that will make radio play (where the popularity is at) and still maintain his political and social beliefs without appearing too much like a douchebag and without coming off like he is preaching (unlike quite a few other bands).  As far as I am concerned that's how to stay in the business: write songs that appeal to people without losing too much of your soul in the process.  At least it guarantees more than a footnote in the history of a once popular band that had a singer that offed himself.

Dave Grohl is talented, Foo is ok, though he's not the songwriter Cobain was.

Dave is quite talented, being able to play drums, guitar and bass and write your own albums is something I have always wanted to do but sucked too bad at.  Foo Fighters have some good songs, but I'm not a huge fanboi or anything.  I never felt obligated to buy an album for various reasons with one being how much radio completely kills their songs when they are new.

[stray]

Dave Grohl wrote the one song on In Utero that I've never gotten tired of (well...at least some of it).

[lamaros]

Foo Fighters are boring mainstream radio filler.

[stray]

Psst. It's all a big joke you know. He intentionally set out to be the new Cheap Trick. But Pat Smear is what makes it funny.

[Nebu]

I challenge any of you to make it in the music business.  It's far from easy.  Despite being a genius, I'm certain that gigging with Cobain for years took its toll on the other two.  Strong personalities with psychiatric disorders can't be a lot of fun to work with on a daily basis... especially when you're stuck in a fishbowl.  I personally walked away from a signed band (signed with MY material no less) because the lead singer was making me insane. 

[Abagadro]

Calling Krist a hack is really pretty funny. Without him, there would have been no Nirvana as he essentially formed the band. Grohl wanted him to join Foo Fighters but he didn't think it would be right.  He is a talented musician that could have played all three of the parts of Nirvana if he had wanted to. He has done good things with JAMPAC and is a hell of a nice guy.

[stray]

I challenge any of you to make it in the music business.  It's far from easy.  Despite being a genius, I'm certain that gigging with Cobain for years took its toll on the other two.  Strong personalities with psychiatric disorders can't be a lot of fun to work with on a daily basis... especially when you're stuck in a fishbowl.  I personally walked away from a signed band (signed with MY material no less) because the lead singer was making me insane. 

This may sound like a copout, but honestly, I hate the music biz. I hate booking, and I don't enjoy hanging around people who are all desperate and take that shit seriously; I can't stand the pompous scenesters that, unfortunately, you'd be doing yourself a favor networking with (I'd sooner punch them rather than humor them); and last, but not least, I don't really get a kick out of sticking to setlists all the time. Hell, I don't really care to entertain anybody for that matter. I'm an unambitious grouch, I guess. And I write songs and play instruments for my own therapy.

[schild]

Kurt Cobain, imo, did worse things to music than anyone else I can think of.

I hate his message, I hate his image, and I hate the fact that people actually liked that dreck. The first time I heard Smells like Teen Spirit, I actually wanted to kill people. To this day, I still don't understand what people see in that shit.

Grohl doesn't bother me. And the Foo Fighters have some catchy, if ridiculous, songs.

[stray]

I have a hard time believing you even had an opinion when Smells Like Teen Spirit came out. You must have been, what? 8 years old? I was 13 at the time.  I thought it was cool. I had already been into punk for awhile before that, and thought it was good to see a feeble looking guy, with nothing but three shitty chords and a howl, single-handedly destroy cockrock, metal, Michael Jackson, Bel Biv Devoe, GnR, and whatever else was sucking up the airwaves at the time. Even cooler is it let all of the dogs out of the gates. A lot of the bands that had been seething in the underground up to that point finally got their due -- and they became "mainstream" for a moment there. And it was good.

[schild]

Other than the fact Pearl Jam's Ten game out the same year and put it to fucking shame - Achtung Baby, Blue Lines, Out of Time, Use Your Illusion 1 & 2, black album and Blood Sugar Sex Majik. Oh, and of course the quintessential Batmotorfinger.

I got into music pretty young because of my dad and IMO, Nirvana clogged up the airwaves. It was absolute trash and the lyrics for each and every song were written by a drug addled maniac. And I could've been 5 years old and still seen that. Also, I had a drug addled dipshit "fixing himself" in my house at the time. Some said I was a little old for my age. But when your dad invites his piece of shit fucked-up life best friend to live in the house to deal with his shit, well, you grow up pretty fucking fast. And I disagree about them opening the flood gates. They were already open. That's how shit like Nirvana ever made it to the airwaves.

Edit: I should point out that despite shit like Nirvana, it's hard to match 1991.

[stray]

Ten may be the better album, but this isn't about better. It's just about who put the nail in the coffin and changed the focus of the recording industry. Record companies had already been trying to give 80's underground bands mainstream coverage for a few years, sure, but they signed them all off as being there mainly for "street cred". This was after a long period of not giving them much attention at all (mainly because punk bands wasted a lot of money back in the 70's, nearly making everyone bankrupt). Husker Du was probably the biggest one before Nirvana's time, and the band that set this new trend. No one expected any of them to make much money, but whatever reason, one of those small bands that signed (this being Nirvana) ended up knocking fucking Michael Jackson off the charts. This is what makes them more important than anyone before them. Especially any band with punk or hard rock aesthetics. I don't care how much better a band is than Nirvana (and there are countless bands that would fall under that category) -- none of them did that. And none became so big in the sense that they literally had a Midas touch. Whatever Cobain said, whatever name he dropped in interviews -- would thereafter become the thing to look into. He was inadvertently an arbiter of what was in and out. If he mentioned an influence, the next thing you know, that musician was hunted down and signed or hired. People like Steve Albini became millionaires because of him. David Yow, of all people, actually started making money. On the flipside, CC Deville specifically blamed him for being out of a job.

And no, you had to be a little older to recognize the before and after effect. Hell, I was already a cocky little skatepunk by 9, had one of the coolest kids in the hood for a brother, was already bangin away at instruments a bit, and I still wouldn't claim to have had much useful knowledge about rock before I was out of elementary school. The truth is, I was still playing with toys and couldn't get a hard on.

[edit] Clarified something a bit...

[Engels]

Gotta side with Stray on this one; even if you don't like Nirvana, you have to admit that they did usher in a whole new era of music into national prominence that had been suppressed since some corporate asshat decided REO Speedwagon was good stuff.

[schild]

I could agree if at ANY POINT I thought Nirvana was a step up from, well, anything.

[stray]

Stop making this about your personal tastes. Or mine, for that matter. Tap into your inner musicologist. If you have one.

[schild]

Yes, if they weren't a moving force in the music industry, someone else would be. But this does seem to be about what got and made popular music to change.

Meh.

Since when were people like you and I ever ones to ACTUALLY give a shit about that kind of stuff at the end of the day? In 1999, I thought Wolfsheim should've been at the top of the charts in America. Far as I know, only 2 real radio stations in America played it or any part of Spectators (those stations being in New York and San Fran respectively).

[stray]

See, what I'm trying to say is -- there were many attempts by those with a punk type of aesthetic (from the 70's as well as the 80's) that, in the end, never broke through like that. Never unseated a so called "godfather of pop" as well as legions of cock rock bands. Etc. Many bands tried, and died. Or just got ignored. And some simply didn't want to.

You say "if" Nirvana weren't a moving force, then someone else would have been --- but there were about 15 years where any band had a shot, and none of them did anything of the sort. There's no "if" -- there's simply what actually happened. If it were up to me, I wish the Misfits had conquered the Earth. I wish they had their own Saturday morning cartoon based off of the lyrics of Astro Zombies -- with art that looked like the cover of "Walk Among Us". Something that scared the shit out of every little kid in America in all the ways that Kiss never did. I would have taken a Ramones Saturday Morning Cartoon as well. Something in the vein of Fat Albert, I guess, except with dope addicts...



As for the bands emerging out of the 80's -- Well, who knows why they didn't break through. They just didn't is all. Perhaps it was because Frank Black was too chubby. Perhaps because Sonic Youth sounded like they couldn't quite tune their guitars. Perhaps because Greg Norton had a funny looking mustache. Perhaps because Michael Stipe was bald, gay, and clapped his hands too much. Perhaps because Perry Ferrell was even gayer and hand clappier than that. Perhaps because J Mascis came off as an even more stoned, and even shittier singer than Neil Young. Perhaps because Albini's best songs were about lighting himself on fire or molesting 5 year olds. All I know is that Kurt Cobain bridged the pop/punk gap in a way without really deluding either, and didn't push away too many people in the process. That's all anyone needed to be do really, but it's easier said than done.

[schild]

Nirvana, Pearl Jam and Soundgarden are the 3 driving forces behind grunge. I don't think they did shit for punk, whereas SPECIFICALLY 2 songs - Rancid's Ruby Soho and Greenday's Longview did more for punk than Nirvana ever could have. But then, saying they did more for punk is weird because everything that really got airtime that came after in punk (and grunge) is just mostly trash. ESPECIALLY in the Grunge category.

I have trouble with the whole ambassador thing in any genre of media - whether it be punk, grunge, metal, etc. It always ends up diluted. It's what happens when you try to please everyone. It's what is eventually going to happen with the Wii. It's definitely what happened with horror movies post Silence of the Lambs. Though, really, post Halloween and Friday the 13th. Those didn't achieve the critical acclaim of Silence of the Lambs. Oh and Ringu, that hurt horror more than anything despite how much I love it.

The Misfits might have been able to do it back int he 80s if they went into a real recording studio and all their shit didn't sound like it was recorded in an unpadded aluminum room. Fuck those recordings are shit. And I fucking LOVVEEEEEEEEEE the Misfits. Fuck, I can probably ramble off 80% of their songs without hearing them. But the recording quality is shit. Of course, when their songwriting ability went down the toilet (yes, yes, I know The Situation Changed), the recording quality was cranked up a thousand notches.

[stray]

Yes, their recordings are seriously shit. That's what the damn shame is. Except the Astro Zombies track itself (on Walk Among Us) -- if everything they did sounded like that, then they would have had that cartoon, I think!


Listen to Against Me, Tiger Army, or the Distillers. Those are Rancid/Tim Armstrong influenced bands that are really freakin good.

[SnakeCharmer]

As for the bands emerging out of the 80's -- Well, who knows why they didn't break through.

Because they didn't get cutting edge videos with cheerleaders that sported tatoos forced into your eye sockets by MTV.

Kurt Cobain, imo, did worse things to music than anyone else I can think of.

I hate his message, I hate his image, and I hate the fact that people actually liked that dreck. The first time I heard Smells like Teen Spirit, I actually wanted to kill people. To this day, I still don't understand what people see in that shit.

Grohl doesn't bother me. And the Foo Fighters have some catchy, if ridiculous, songs.

Winner.  Pure win.

I hated Nirvana then, I hate them now.

I've just never gotten the angst thing.  Never could connect to it. 

Edit:  Color added for sarcasm.

[stray]

You guys are making this too much about yourselves. And if you think the worse thing in music is Nirvana, then I have to say, you don't know what true pain can be.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_P-v1BVQn8

[SnakeCharmer]

Heh.  Touche.

It's not that I think they're the worst thing that's happened to music (that distinction belongs to MTV), I just really honestly...laugh(?) at the whole thing.  I'm a happy guy.  I've never had anything to make me unhappy.  I've never been the 'I hate my parents and everybody misunderstands me and woe is me and I'm gonna write songs in my notebook and wear eyeliner and combat boots ad nauseum' kinda people/kids.

I think the most angsty I got was listening to the Dead Kennedys once or twice.  Then tossing the tape out the window and popping in The Cult or something.  Maybe Bon Jovi.  Or maybe Counting Crows.

I dunno.  Musical tastes are one of those intensely personal things like politics and religion, and tend to elicit stronger than normal responses.

[Abagadro]

Heh. Love seeing people who were 8 years old at the time talking about what was or wasn't critical to a particular music scene. I know how my dad felt when I talked to him about The Who.  As someone who ran an Alternative format radio station before any of this was popular, I can tell you that it was a major deal.  We'd go to the administration looking to upgrade equipment and our transmitter and they'd be like "What's alternative? Never heard of it."  98% of the student body had the same reaction. Fuck, they were still listening to Madonna, Garth Brooks and Poison.  We were flailing away playing Misfits, Minutemen, Fugazi, L7, Black Flag, Jello Biafra, Soundgarden, Mudhoney, Beck, Live, Danzig, Rollins Band, Primus, Tool, etc. Hell, Killdozer crashed at my house and I hung out with Rob Zombie in the basement of the 9:30 after their show (another totally kick ass set in such a small venue) because they wanted to chat up radio people because they were so desperate to  to get airplay. No one would listen to that stuff and thought we were all crazy.  These were bands very, very few people had heard of at the time. Two years later everyone was playing this stuff at their parties.  To think that this would have just "happened" is foolish. It took a breakout band, and Nirvana was it.  Soundgarden pushed up behind them, but had been working it for longer without the success that Nirvana created for them.  Pearl Jam surpassed them in some ways, but needed the door kicked in first (see below).

1) Nirvana was good.  Nevermind is a good album (Bleach is probably a better album, but whatever). It wasn't just shoved down radio play that made them a hit. They put on one of the best shows I've ever seen (was at the old 9:30 club in D.C. which holds about 120 people and was before they were huge, just before the time SLTS was starting a rotation as a "buzz clip". That placed was packed to the door and had more energy than any room I've ever been in) and tore up places all over the country before MTV really got them going. 

2) Nirvana blew open a whole new type of music that was good that had been struggling for a long time. The film "The Year Punk Broke" does a good job of showing the progression from the 80s punk scene to the break out of the Seattle 'grunge' scene.

3) Ruby Soho is a ska song that did nothing for punk. Greenday's entire repertoire is pop punk, which I actually like, but it really has little to do with punk and Dookie was actually pretty late to the party.

4) Ten is a great album. The fact that another great album was released at the same time, does not negate how good Nevermind is. In fact, the success of Ten sorta blows your theory up as it was released before Nevermind but no one heard about it until after Nevermind blew up and everyone started looking at the Seattle scene more closely.

[schild]

3) Ruby Soho is a ska song that did nothing for punk. Greenday's entire repertoire is pop punk, which I actually like, but it really has little to do with punk and Dookie was actually pretty late to the party.

Both Rancid and Green Day largely and directly, much to my dismay, was gateway music for a lot of young punk types.

Also, I probably bought more music between 8 and 13 than I did between 13 and 25. If you throw out the 1999-2003 era where I amassed a disgustingly huge Synthpop/Industrial/EBM collection.

While, I suppose, I could give Nirvana credit for being in the right place at the right time and really appealing to the pill-popping wrist-cutting crowd in a way that caught on, it speaks nothing but sad things for the status of teenagers and the industry itself.

So, sure, let's give Cobain and Co. credit. And I hope everyone involved feels like an asshole for doing as much.

As for your noble fight, hey, at least the list of bands you rattled off had instruments. Imagine how I felt running my radio show when I had to explain what I was going to play. Despite the fact we were the second most popular show at college and ran from 3:00AM to 6:00AM on Saturdays. You ramble off a list like VNV Nation, Apoptygma Berzerk, Bauhaus, Synesthaesia/Frontline Assembly, Noise Unit, Informatik, etc. And somewhere in there, a light flashes in the other persons eye and you hear "I've heard of Kraftwerk." Very Very Few People Hearing about stuff is something I *wish* I could apply to the fight I was trying to fight. Explaining why I wanted the DAC numbers was probably a tougher battle than Normandy. Thank god for the internet.

And fuck you, Madonna was fucking great in the 80s and early 90s.

Garth Brooks still has more selling power than Christianity. Though, I think he's selling that too, now.