Web Design, what to charge?

[Salamok]

I have just found out this morning that I am being cut to half time (a result of mortgage industry pain not work performance).  Since I pretty much hate my job anyhow and have enjoyed designing web sites I figured I would take this opportunity to try and transition into a self sufficient independent web designer.

I know a few people here are at least part time web designers and I have really never had a clue what to charge for my work.  I have charged in the past but I was mostly in it for the learning experience so I was pretty much billing enough to keep people from taking the work for granted. 

My plan is to take on small (under 10 pages) "mostly for advertising" type web sites and just crank them out as fast as I can.  Maybe even require the client to host through me for x dollars a year.  Now I realize my skills aren't where I want them to be (mostly need to work on color selection) but here is an example of work I have charged for in the past, hopefully one of you more experienced designers can tell me if I should be charging more or less:

$1400 - Customer provided NO CONTENT or text (god I hate that).
http://www.robroywest.com  <-flash photo gallery and interactive site plan.

$1500
http://www.beecreekestates.com <-interactive site plan.

$500 (mostly ripped from a template I may or may not have rights to use) Flash menu, simple application page.
http://www.txinvestmentloans.com/

$2200 - confusing here the 1st site was paid for and cancelled 2x (they keep selling the property on me), 2nd site was built using time owed from the 1st site and home page was dictated by the client (bleh).  Still some decent flash photo galleries.
http://www.lakehurstvistas.com
http://www.nuecescanyonranch.com  I will eventually talk the client into a free home page redesign just so I can use this as a reference.

Now keep in mind that the flash interactive site plans for the home development sites take quite some time to create, I did all the photography as well (included in price).

So any useful comments or suggestions would be very much appreciated.

[Etro]

I can't comment on the money aspect because i've never had a real job , but heres some stuff that might be helpful:

Colour Palettes
--
http://www.colourlovers.com/
http://kuler.adobe.com/

Stock Photography
--
http://www.sxc.hu/ -this one is free
http://www.istockphoto.com/

Free Icons
--
http://iconbuffet.com/ - kind of a social collection/trading game with icons

Web APIs
--
http://www.awszone.com/
http://www.programmableweb.com/
http://www.trynt.com/

Generally useful websites
--
http://www.alistapart.com/
http://script.aculo.us/
http://www.glish.com/css/

[HaemishM]

Though I charge less (because the people I've done work for are either friends or friends of friends), the going rate I know of for freelance web design around here is about $75/hr.

[Krakrok]

Yeah anywhere from $65 to $80 an hour is good. I wouldn't really recommend hosting the websites unless you REALLY want to. Look at Templatemonster.com for layout ideas.

[stray]

If they aren't providing text, then jack up your price a bit. Call it a "marketer's fee" ;)

[schild]

I'm gonna be completely straight up about this:

Having worked at GoDaddy over a year. Web designers are the most overpriced, underworked people in the goddamn country. They charge too much for too little and get away with fucking murder with what they charge and how they deal with the elderly, stupid women, and even stupider businessmen.

That's to say, if you have no problem with digitally raping and pillaging (I don't, it just makes my job... harder), then by all means, go forth.

But I've yet to meet a "web designer" that should be charging more than $15 an hour, if that.

Edit: Actually, I've seen people do amazing webwork. But it's always for a corporation (their full time job) or a web 2.0 app (rounded corners will always be yummy) or was done pro-bono. There's something to be said about elegant work. Most people either can't afford it or don't get it for what they're charged.

Also, if I had the wherewithal, I'd be digitally raping and pillaging also - lots of old people to abuse in AZ. I just don't have the time or patience.

[stray]

My brother was lucky enough to steal just about all the clients from the company he worked for (which had a falling out after 9/11). He gets a lot of high profile/unusual work for a lone freelancer (Revlon, Tiffany's, Showtime, shit like that), but none of it is amazing really. More power to him. I don't give a fuck what kind of money he makes.

[Salamok]

If they aren't providing text, then jack up your price a bit. Call it a "marketer's fee" ;)

My thoughts exactly, I hate writing copy and it is the worst when a client has nothing to contribute beyond "my company name is x and we sell x's".  If I could actually team up with a decent copywriter I would go on the warpath trying to crank out obscene amounts of content.

That's to say, if you have no problem with digitally raping and pillaging (I don't, it just makes my job... harder), then by all means, go forth.

My plan isn't really to digitally rape and pillage, that 1 template was bought in a "web design" package from some individual (dare i say company?) in hong kong, so if I take him at his word I have rights to it, if he is full of shit I don't.  I happen to think he was full of shit, still not sure how ripping content makes your job harder (unless you are the reciever of cease and desist letters)...

I am going to aim at providing full custom content that goes a bit beyond "lol dude this frontpage is the shizzle!".  I am 100% sure I have the database, html/scripting, and flash design skills to get er done but I definately need to work on my lack of color coordination.

I'm thinking of going the $1000 5page custom site with a fair bit of flash and some template driven user definable content, tie that to a $30 a month 2 year hosting contract for some possible long term residual income.  Assuming I can keep the design of said project under 30 hours per.

But I've yet to meet a "web designer" that should be charging more than $15 an hour, if that.

I agree, I believe the last "web designer" I met was wiggling around on my lap at a strip club.  But this is actually a reason I think my idea will work.  I believe I can bring more to the table than your average "$15 an hour" web designer.  I have the equipment and the talent to do extensive photowork without subbing that out + very good photochop skills (except for my color issues) + back end database experience + rapidly developing flash skills = profit>$15 an hour?

Anyhoo, thanks for the great feedback and links.  definately some food for thought here.

[Sky]

But I've yet to meet a "web designer" that should be charging more than $15 an hour, if that.

Well, I'm a shitty 'web designer', I've done a few sites I won't link to, but the decent ones were done under salary conditions. The most esoteric I get is some CSS, I am pretty much still straight html for a clean layout that supports the material and design is king. But even I'd ask more than $15/hr, because it takes skill and $15/hr is, depending on the market, at the higher end of unskilled retail. Hell, in a city it might be going rate for retail, I mean here in bumfuck walmart is hiring at $11/hr for unloaders, which means you have two legs and at least one arm.

I've done some work on the side, and I charge $60/hr. I feel fucking stupid doing so, but I do it mostly to weed out jobs. I really don't want to work when I get out of work. $60 is the low-end of what people are charging locally, and I'm probably more professional and competent than most of them, so I should probably charge more. But seriously, charging $60/hr to reset someone's wireless and passwords, maybe run a few updates and scans if I'm feeling charitable...yeah, it's crazy.

But that's the world, and despite the fact that we hobbyists think it's very basic, stupid shit...most people don't have a clue and truly need the help. That said, I turned down the last several jobs and now refuse to build computers for people because I need more free time and money can't buy that.

[Salamok]

But I've yet to meet a "web designer" that should be charging more than $15 an hour, if that.

But that's the world, and despite the fact that we hobbyists think it's very basic, stupid shit...most people don't have a clue and truly need the help. That said, I turned down the last several jobs and now refuse to build computers for people because I need more free time and money can't buy that.

And thats the dilemma what do you charge people for being stupid and having no clue?  I mean the work is the work but the true personal cost comes from having to work with people who probably have no concept of what a good job looks like much less what it takes to acheive that level of result.

heh, I just had some nice lol thoughts - The ironic part is that Go Daddy with it's monstrously confusing plus sales oriented web interface is a huge contributing factor to creating a customer base that is overwhelmed enough to pay a premium for what should be a simple self generated web site.   Godaddy's "confuse em into buying something they don't need" design is digital rape and pillage on a scale I can barely even comprehend.

[naum]

Problem is, "web designer" is sort of a dead end anymore… …unless you have some sort of specialty, like Flash where you can easily charge >$100 per hour to make those annoying banners that many aspiring web site owners salivate over… …web development has evolved into a team effort, where you have programmer/developer working with graphic designers, editors, system administrators, etc.…

Granted, there are still the small Mom+Pop type outlets that covet professional looking sites, but you're going to have to step outside the bounds of "web designer" and learn some scripting, information architecture, etc.… …or at least the ability to take F/OSS (or pay for products) platforms and customize/tailor the look and feel (and add-ons) for a client. Otherwise, you will be stuck in 1999.  The times, they are a changing, customers want splashy flash, podcasts, email newsletters, AJAXy UI, etc.… …even if they can't properly frame their desires in the correct lingo.

I've been chasing customers away… …it's just frustrating, I try to get customers to define what they want first, before engaging. It seems for many aspiring web site proprietors, the concept of having a web site is just about "we want a cool site"… …instead, I ask "what are your goals", "what do you wish to accomplish", "what is it visitors should come away with", etc.… …which usually results in blank stares, or worse, descends into how the last web guy (in many cases a relative or friend) didn't do this, won't answer their queries, etc.…

And you can field some strange requests… …I made big easy money once just crafting a half dozen pages with a JS rollover tab menu… …for a site that was never meant to go public, just used to shore up venture capital as his first presentation to VC interests was inviting, but they withheld because they deemed his site "too unprofessional"…

Admittedly, I've lost a lot of zeal for this as I once was excited, learning all I could and jumping from mainframe/*nix programming into web development… …now, I think I'd rather be writing TSO REXX dialogs for 24x80 displays…

[Mrbloodworth]

I don't charge by the hour, i charge by the scope of the job.

[Salamok]

Granted, there are still the small Mom+Pop type outlets that covet professional looking sites, but you're going to have to step outside the bounds of "web designer" and learn some scripting, information architecture, etc.… …or at least the ability to take F/OSS (or pay for products) platforms and customize/tailor the look and feel (and add-ons) for a client. Otherwise, you will be stuck in 1999.  The times, they are a changing, customers want splashy flash, podcasts, email newsletters, AJAXy UI, etc.… …even if they can't properly frame their desires in the correct lingo.

I think there is plenty of mom and pop business out there.  I have turned down alot of potential "slam dunk" business over the last 2 years simply because I didn't have the time.  I had a roofer come to me saying he lost a few jobs for not having a web presence, he wanted something non crap but didn't need any interactive features.  I don't think he was in a unique situation and the idea of cranking out $500-$1000 sites and getting in and out as fast as I can sounds pretty good to me.

I do plan to steer clear of online shopping type of stuff, I could go there but i think it would entangle me with the customer more than I am comfortable with.

[Bunk]

I'm gonna be completely straight up about this:

Having worked at GoDaddy over a year. Web designers are the most overpriced, underworked people in the goddamn country. They charge too much for too little and get away with fucking murder with what they charge and how they deal with the elderly, stupid women, and even stupider businessmen.

That's to say, if you have no problem with digitally raping and pillaging (I don't, it just makes my job... harder), then by all means, go forth.

I love all of these over priced web designers - because one of the products I sell to Realtors is websites. For about $30 a month. Once they realize a custom built site is going to cost them $4000 and they'll be at the mercy of the designer to get updates done, our templated sites look a whole lot sweeter at our pricepoint.

Before someone says it - no, templated sites do not automatically suck. As long as the site gives you the tools to pull out the stock stuff and put in your own content.

[Salamok]

I'm gonna be completely straight up about this:

Having worked at GoDaddy over a year. Web designers are the most overpriced, underworked people in the goddamn country. They charge too much for too little and get away with fucking murder with what they charge and how they deal with the elderly, stupid women, and even stupider businessmen.

That's to say, if you have no problem with digitally raping and pillaging (I don't, it just makes my job... harder), then by all means, go forth.

I love all of these over priced web designers - because one of the products I sell to Realtors is websites. For about $30 a month. Once they realize a custom built site is going to cost them $4000 and they'll be at the mercy of the designer to get updates done, our templated sites look a whole lot sweeter at our pricepoint.

I'm talking about $500-$1500 not $4000, besides any Realtor that doesn't just use top producer is retarded.  I personally plan on steering clear of Realtors anyhow as a vast majority of them are too much of a pain in the ass to be worth working with.  Fortunately for me most professions aren't as "organized" as the NAR, so you wont find some cookie cutter industry specific web solution for your local roofer, plumber, or electrician.

Before someone says it - no, templated sites do not automatically suck. As long as the site gives you the tools to pull out the stock stuff and put in your own content.

You are right all template sites do not suck, but once they reach a density where every 3rd Realtor in town is sporting the same site then they start to look a little meh.

[Bunk]

I'm talking about $500-$1500 not $4000, besides any Realtor that doesn't just use top producer is retarded.  I personally plan on steering clear of Realtors anyhow as a vast majority of them are too much of a pain in the ass to be worth working with.  Fortunately for me most professions aren't as "organized" as the NAR, so you wont find some cookie cutter industry specific web solution for your local roofer, plumber, or electrician.

I  U

(www.darrenmantle.com)

[BigBlack]

My girlfriend got paid $5,000 to do this.

She ended up shelling out about $1500 for the text copy, though.

[naum]

My girlfriend got paid $5,000 to do this.

She ended up shelling out about $1500 for the text copy, though.

None of the menu links work…

[schild]

Not true. "Home" works.

Owner will never notice anyway.

[BigBlack]

About 1/3 of the links work, actually.  That's what she was paid for - if they ever want to add content for 'em, that's on them.  Still WIP, I guess?

[Teleku]

Jesus Christ I need to get back into web development.

[Murgos]

About 1/3 of the links work, actually.  That's what she was paid for - if they ever want to add content for 'em, that's on them.  Still WIP, I guess?

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.stevensrx.com%2Fcustomcompounds.html&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0

5 grand and she can't even spit out a valid HTML doc?  There is a large gap between onsie-twosie pages for a couple of bucks and making a business.

The page is pretty enough, I guess.

[Krakrok]

That validator is bullshit.

there is no attribute "LEFTMARGIN". there is no attribute "TOPMARGIN".

ORLY?

[Salamok]

That validator is bullshit.

there is no attribute "LEFTMARGIN". there is no attribute "TOPMARGIN".

ORLY?

a code validator that doesn't break down which bowsers don't support what is worthless.  Also, lolz:

Line 40, Column 102: required attribute "ALT" not specified.
…e_page2.png" width="670" height="445"></div></td>

so the validator requires every single img tag to have alt text?  I can understand key images but no friggen way I am filling out alt text for all the background/fluff stuff.

[Krakrok]

A California judge ruled under the Americans With Disabilities Act that ALT tags need to be used (as Target found out the hard way). However, usually I only fill it out on images which actually have text or to describe the image. It's good practice to do as well because it looks good to search engines. But ALT tags on a spacer pixel image? Give me a break.

[UD_Delt]

But I've yet to meet a "web designer" that should be charging more than $15 an hour, if that.

I call BS on this. Ya know what plumbing is also something that anyone can learn to do but I'm still going to pay someone an outrageous amount to do it because I can't be assed to bother and it sucks even more to start something and not know how to finish it.

Web design is the same way. But there are still people out there who don't understand how to cut and paste in a word document let alone build a website. Those people are more than happy to pay $65 or so an hour for someone to come in and do it for them. It's not always about the skill or the difficulty in learning it, it is about the fact that MOST people don't have any desire to ever bother to even try.

Hell, I used to work some side jobs at $35/hour doing basic computer support. Things such as unpacking a new PC and plugging in the monitor, keyboard, mouse, network and then making sure their basic software was on the thing. I eventually stopped even though I was getting more and more requests because at $35/hour I was about half the price of anyone else doing that sort of thing.

[Murgos]

That validator is bullshit.

there is no attribute "LEFTMARGIN". there is no attribute "TOPMARGIN".

ORLY?

"You have used the attribute named above in your document, but the document type you are using does not support that attribute for this element."

It's not rocket science.  If you expect your web page to be viewed in a certain way in all browsers and for new browsers in the future then you have to play by the rules the browsers understand.  Otherwise crap in = crap out.

Also, if w3 says you're doing it wrong then, guess what?  You're doing it wrong.  Having written the standard would give them a leg up in that dept.

edit: re: alt text.  It's a federal ruling that all images have alt text, if you are developing a website for a state or federal agency or anyone who can get sued for discrimination for not complying with the order then, yeah, even your spacers need to have alt text.  There is more reasoning to the judgment than just that though, I recall that it has to do with how web pages are translated for blind and deaf people and technical issue with the conversion.

Also, spacer images to margin your pages?  Quit fucking up the internet and get with the program.

[Krakrok]

Welcome to the real world.

[BigBlack]

Okay, the update none of you were waiting for, I checked with her on it -- apparently after she turned control of the website over to them, something FUBAR'ed with the hosting (hence all the 404's), and the pharmacy stopped caring about it after they bought it; the hosting provider changed the password, so she can't fix it, and the pharmacy doesn't care enough.  All the same to her, she still got paid.  Yay for clients who know they want a website but don't really know why?

As to HTML skills, or lack thereof -- AFAIK she basically taught herself HTML for this project.  She's a graphic designer (print and motion primarily) by trade, not web.  This job was more taken up on a lark during a semester off.

Which basically validates everything Schild said about how web design is a spectacular racket.

[Chenghiz]

Not really. Graphic designers learn to design, and that knowledge applies just as much to websites as it does to print design. There is a big difference between a random guy who knows html/css and a guy who's gotten a degree in design and knows how to make websites that are aesthetically pleasing, robust, and usable. That difference should reflected in the price of their service.

[Murgos]

Welcome to the real world.

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ibm.com&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.sony.com&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.msn.com&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0

Whatever.

[Samwise]

I think Krak was talking about spacer images, not validation.  In theory you should be able to do your page layout without doing stupid shit like that, but in reality, you have to do all sorts of horrible kludges with 1-pixel spacer images and whatnot to work around bugs in browsers and/or the limitations of the standard while satisfying your client/boss's requirements.  (Try using CSS to give something rounded corners.  GYAAAHHHH.)

[lamaros]

I did a website for the company I work for, teaching myself PHP at the same time, and it probably ended up costing them about $600 or so AU$. (I'd provide the link but it has a petition form that I feel f13.net users might abuse). It was really quite simple, but I could do the same thing now in about 10 hours or less (if they provide content). I'd feel bad charging $500 for it, let alone more, as it's simple stuff. But then the whole industry is a fucking rip-off so.. do whatever you can get away with.

I probably would for clients I didn't give a shit about if I still had a urge for web stuff, but I find the whole thing a bit boring.

Web Design is a racket. But you have to actually design insipid websites, which is fucking boring, and live with the fact you're ripping people off. I have no taste for it, but if you can handle it...

[Krakrok]

Whatever.

All three of those sites are full of bullshit little hacks. They're just done in Javascript so the validator doesn't notice. The W3 CSS validator doesn't even work at the time of this writing (Servlet has thrown exception:javax.servlet.ServletException: Timed out). Let me bow down to their web java prowess. Servlets.

The only entities that can afford to waste time on useless shit like that are corporations where it takes 50 people to change a light bulb.

And I have yet to see a WYSWIG editor that doesn't pointlessly use pixel spacer images and still look fine in all browsers.

[Calantus]

Design is a mug's game, the real work is in taking the design and making it work.

Really I just hate design to death because either the client doesn't give a shit OR you're going to be buried in bullshit little changes because the vice editor or whatever decided the background is not quite the right shade blue and that image should be moved here oh and that word doesn't sound quite right can you change it to this? It gets very annoying. It's nice to make something that either works or doesn't work. It's so simple.