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Author Topic: Acid-Free Paper Flashbacks by Xilren's Twin  (Read 27698 times)
schild
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on: September 21, 2004, 12:55:19 PM

Shannow
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Reply #1 on: September 21, 2004, 01:49:47 PM

Oh boy cardboard crack. I gave this game up 8 years ago and still get withdrawal pains occasionally. I have about 20 cards somewhere that even the smell of gives me flashbacks....mmmm ok maybe I said to much.

Again this comes back to another thread where we talked about a game decided on player vs player skill thats not just twitch. Fantastic idea....problems I can forsee are the devaluing of spells by the catass crew and a rampant ebay trade...

Someone liked something? Who the fuzzy fuck was this heretic? You don't come to this website and enjoy something. Fuck that. ~ The Walrus
Calantus
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Reply #2 on: September 22, 2004, 12:17:37 AM

Give in to Magic Online. You know you want to. I'd have to say this is the most fun I've had with an online game. Probably the most expensive though. I can't help myself when it comes to virtual cardboard.

Also agree on Magic: The MMOG having alot of potential as a concept. Taking a combat system that works, is fun, is strategic, is varied, is proven, and stands the test of time, then putting it into a MMOG? Sign me up.
Ironwood
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Reply #3 on: September 22, 2004, 03:24:18 AM

Spent about 300 quid in one month (Not Dollars.)

Don't do this.  Flee.

Save yourself...

(though I agree that the League format is the best fun you can have for the cheapest price...)

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Shannow
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Reply #4 on: September 22, 2004, 06:41:54 AM

MtGO is simply way to expensive. And I cant even go look at the website otherwise I might suffer a relapse. The only way is to go cold turkey.
Musssst ressssiiiist.

Someone liked something? Who the fuzzy fuck was this heretic? You don't come to this website and enjoy something. Fuck that. ~ The Walrus
Xilren's Twin
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Reply #5 on: September 22, 2004, 09:16:21 AM

Quote from: Shannow
MtGO is simply way to expensive. And I cant even go look at the website otherwise I might suffer a relapse. The only way is to go cold turkey.
Musssst ressssiiiist.


Come on; the first hit's free...

Seriously, it does take some financial discipline not to overspend.  While this was true in paper magic as well, it was mitigated by the fact there weren't tournaments and drafts available to you 24/7 the way there are in MTGO.  Always having a prize giving event available is very seductive; "just one more draft" will quickly run up your tab if you arent careful.

If you go in wanting to play in constructed tournaments with the big boys, you will have to invest a lot upfront to get the cards you want. But, the flip side of the pricing stucture is you could buy a lot cards day1, and never spend another cent since there's no monthly fee.  Consider, you could spend $17 a month on a typical mmmorpg subscription, or take the $204 a year that represents and buy 55 booster packs day 1.  Or spread it out over time, or spend in spurts when you can.  It's doable on a budget, but you need patience and self control to build your collection slowly.

I know some people who draft a few times a month, no so much to win the draft itself but to assemble a collection of cards they want and trade stock they can use to get the cards they want.  Call em raredrafters if you will, it's a viable choice for starting a pool of decent cards.

Other don't buy packs, but just buy event tickets ($1 a pop); any draft, league or tournament you do costs 1 or more of these but they are also the default currency of the game.  You can buy sell and auction with tickets as the medium of exchange.  You can easily find people selling commons for 64 or even 96 for 1 ticket, and uncommons for 12-32 per ticket depending on who you find.  Rares are usually 1 a peice or more with the good ones being more expensive of course.  Decent trading can build use a useable card pool quickly.  By way of example, when 5th dawn first came out, you could sell a hot uncommon, Eternal Witness, for 4-5 tickets; so if you bought a booster for 3.69 (or drafted one), you could get 4-5 tickets which you could use to get a boatload of other cards, or buy a new booster with, plus you got to keep the other 14 cards in the original booster.  Certain personality types will enjoy "playing the market" almost as much as playing the game.

Or you could do like me; league you way to victory.  It the most cost effective and it also does build your card pool over time.

So really you have a few choices.

That's one reason I think a subscription based game based on it would work.  Many people wanted MTGO to be just that; pay X a month which gets you 4 boosters a month and everyone has at it in a massive limited game.  It just much more palatable to pay a small fee a month rather than one large sum once a year.

Oh did I mention, joining a clan like say Bat Country is a good way to get access to lots of cards and people to play with.  :-)

Xilren

"..but I'm by no means normal." - Schild
Shannow
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Reply #6 on: September 22, 2004, 10:12:52 AM

Get away from me ye silver tongued devil!

Blah too many cards , think the last expansion I saw was 'Ice age' (was that the name? Came out in 95..:P)...I miss my old power deck. 60 cards red/blue...fireballs, forks, counterspell, mana drains, juggernauts, a shivan dragon for fun and as many volcanic islands as money could buy. :P

Someone liked something? Who the fuzzy fuck was this heretic? You don't come to this website and enjoy something. Fuck that. ~ The Walrus
schild
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Reply #7 on: September 22, 2004, 10:46:53 AM

Shannow, online is a different world than paper Magic. After the initial investment, I think mine was about $150 or so. Mostly tournaments - which run all day in flights, everyday. I think I started trading - a lot. Resulting in close to 5,000 cards or so. After that about 2500 got deposited into the clan fund (whatever you want to call it). Basically as such, I have a binder of about 4,000 cards that everyone in the clan can just pick and choose from. I also do try to find specific cards for Bat Country.

Remember - online, WoTC controls how much of everything there is. There are no REAL dollars, and there is no set older than Invasion. When a set goes out of print, it really goes OUT OF PRINT. Cards maintain their value online because of how guaranteed it is for there to be a limited number of say - foil spiritmongers. IRL there may be a couple hundred, hell, possibly a thousand. Here - maybe 50. They cost roughly $120-$160 a piece.

Why would anyone buy them? Shit, I don't know - but they've been that cost since I started and they'll probably stay exactly at that.

It's a fun world. But cutthroat, much more so than offline.
Shannow
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Reply #8 on: September 22, 2004, 10:55:15 AM

Seriously stop it you lot, Ive spent the last 30 minutes thinking about my old league and the old decks I used to have. I cant afford to be sucked in, really I cant......okjustonemoreboosterpackkthxbye!

arrgh.

:P

Someone liked something? Who the fuzzy fuck was this heretic? You don't come to this website and enjoy something. Fuck that. ~ The Walrus
Ironwood
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Reply #9 on: September 22, 2004, 11:38:03 AM

Ok, one last post and a serious one.

It's a lot of fun.  Really.  I joined Bat Country and got hooked up with some 'extra' cards for merely the price of the dud cards I would never have had any interest in anyway (not black ones...)

I got a nice deck together and for a 'casual' player it's the fucking business.  You can have fun for no reason whatsoever even to the extent of (as I do) playing at work when you're supposed to be doing other stuff.

(What ?  Don't look at me like that, the server drives were rebuilding, I had time..)

But DO NOT WHATEVER HAPPENS get drawn into constructed play.  You'll spend a fucking fortune trying to make a deck to beat 'the big boys' and it's JUST NOT WORTH IT.  It's like being an SWG catass or something.

The wife and I are playing the leagues and not only is it the cheaper option but you at least feel that you're skill with the cards comes into play - everyone gets random cards in boosters, so everyone's in the same boat.

Even though the rest of the bastards pulled bloodshot cyclops and phyrexian collusi.

Buggers.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Calantus
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Reply #10 on: September 22, 2004, 06:48:16 PM

Quote from: Ironwood
Even though the rest of the bastards pulled bloodshot cyclops and phyrexian collusi.


Heh, had to smile when I saw that. In my only 8th Ed league I drew exactly those, plus a number of pump troops (including fallen angel, man she is nuts with cyclops), enrage, and raise dead to bring a piece back.

It's not even the most degenerate thing I've seen (one degenerate deck faced and beat me every single goddamn round in a MDF league and none of those games were tie-breakers), that's one of the reasons I switched to drafts over leagues, you have some control over what you get. Sure some guy could open pristine angel and you'll never see it in your pile, but at least he wont get the sweet uncommons/commons. Though yeah, leagues are the best way to start, and if you don't play it that often then you might as well stick with them.
Raging Turtle
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Reply #11 on: September 22, 2004, 10:04:47 PM

Any room left in Bat Country for another player? :)

I started playing MTGO a few months after release, so I've got a fairly nice collection and would be happy to donate extra cards... I even posted a few times about the game on this board under the nick of Pyrite.

I used to draft a lot, and did fairly well, but I eventually got sick of Mirrodin Block and the lack of any color signaling.  Now I primarily play prismatic, with my favortie deck being a 260 card Singleton-legal deck.  As of this Thursday (today?) the format will be a lot more accessible to those without the power cards, as they finally banned nearly all the tutors available online (including the mother^*&%* wishes except for the white one), along with the gamebreaking Sundering Titan.

8th edition League, eh?  I've tried that a few times, but the thing about 8th is that sometimes five boosters isn't enough to leave you with a playable deck.  

As the profile says, I'm currently living in Korea, so I'm not sure if my play times would sync up with anyone else's.  but throw my name on the /buddy list (Raging Turtle) if you want a game or want some advice on how to avoid getting ripped off.
Margalis
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Reply #12 on: September 23, 2004, 12:24:15 AM

Not to turn this into a bit MtG thread (wait, that's that point!) but I don't want to talk about something somewhat design related, Constructed vs. Limited play.

It's a great example of people not knowing their own game.

I read an interview with some guy who won some Magic tournament and one of his quotes was something like "I like Limited more than Constructed...I mean, everybody does."

In fighting games, you find a lot of games that are fun at low to mid levels, but are degenerative at high levels. (Dominated by a small set of characters, strategies, etc) Fun if you don't know too much and don't find the broken things)

Magic has that to the EXTREME.

Everyone begins playing magic by playing casual constructed, but serious constructed is a horrible game. At some point you have to ditch constructed and switch over. Because WoTC doesn't understand their own game.

The most fun part of magic is really making decks. I think for most people that is as/more fun than actually playing. But in high level constructed play, most of the time "making" a deck means copying a deck and switching out 4-8 out of 60 cards in it. And WoTC *encourages* this.

I remember reading an article by a WoTC guy that posted some deck lists, and said something like "Even if you aren't going to play one of these decks (which you probably should), be prepared to face them plenty of times."

YES, you WILL face them plenty of times if you write in your fucking article that everyone should play those decks!

The absurdity is, there is very little skill in playing Magic, especially in constructed where you know your own deck very well. There aren't a lot of tough decisions to be made. A lot of the skill is in deck design.
---

So, how does WoTC encourage this? They print the decks of the winners, for one. WHY!?!? Why publish that? Wouldn't it be a lot cooler if you just heard about a deck that was doing well, and to piece together reports of what was in it, what was in the sideboard, etc? It seems to my that would be a lot more interesting, and make it take longer for decks to start being rampantly cloned. And in trying to reproduce those decks people would be doing more unintentional experimentation.

Another thing WoTC does is purposely make most of the cards useless in constructed. I would *think* if I were a designer my goal would be to make every card useful. Sure, in the end some will be more useful than others, but I would never make a card that I personally thought was garbage. In fighting games a goal is to make all the characters pretty even. In RTS games you want the sides pretty even. In FPS you want the weapons pretty even. Isn't that an obvious concept?

There are a lot of bullshit reasons for why they do this, but they are just that, bullshit. None of them make any real sense. They want to be able to predict what the "meta-game" will look like...why? Why do they need to do that? If it's easy to predict doesn't that means it's pretty stagnant and boring? And it doesn't work anyway - look at them missing Skullclamp for example.

I understand that some cards can be good in limited and not so good in constructed and vice versa, but there should never be cards that are bad everywhere, which is basically the goal of the core set....sad.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
AOFanboi
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Reply #13 on: September 23, 2004, 04:16:38 AM

Quote from: Margalis
So, how does WoTC encourage this? They print the decks of the winners, for one. WHY!?!? Why publish that?

Because people would find out anyway. It's the same with "cheat sites" for MMORPGs.

But what WotC als did (and possibly still do) is to release the top 10 world tournament decks for people to buy. This adds even more to the "flava of the month" deckbuilding, bewcause a lot of people will be able to own those decks, and the cards in them.

Keep in mind, though, that the "killer deck syndrome" has been the same ever since M:tG was released, and was in many ways worse before tournament restrictions (whether the 1R-2U-4C limit or any other rules they have changed up through the years). Early M:tG was dominated by Louts-Mountain-Channel-Fireball first turn kills or all-Lightning Bolt decks. There have always been powerful combos, the differences from then to now is that 6th Edition cleaned up the rules something fierce, and all the extra powers and effects (not to mention the sheer number of cards) make it harder to spot combos as easily.

Regarding MtgO, it's not entirely true that you can buy a starter pack and some boosters at the beginning and that's all you need: Expansions are continously rolled in and out of the "standard" constructed tournament set, so your Judgement cards are not useable in a Mirrordin or whatever. But there are lots of other formats to try anyway. Just be aware of the "planned obsolesecence" in the standard format.

Current: Mario Kart DS, Nintendogs
Xilren's Twin
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Reply #14 on: September 23, 2004, 06:14:19 AM

Quote from: Margalis
It's a great example of people not knowing their own game.

Everyone begins playing magic by playing casual constructed, but serious constructed is a horrible game. At some point you have to ditch constructed and switch over. Because WoTC doesn't understand their own game.

The most fun part of magic is really making decks. I think for most people that is as/more fun than actually playing. But in high level constructed play, most of the time "making" a deck means copying a deck and switching out 4-8 out of 60 cards in it. And WoTC *encourages* this.


You make some good points, but I disagree that wotc doesn't know their audience well.  In many ways, the whole purpose of them even having a Pro Tour was a marketing ploy to drive card sales, and it works.  The ability for any player to know what the top or hot decks are was happening anyway on places like the old Dojo site, whether wotc sanctioned it or not.  But actually this freely available information helps the non hardcore player more than anyone.  Why?

As you said, it's easy to find a top decklist, then copy it and play it.  It evens the field in constructed by removing deckbuilding skill from the equation so contests come down to player skill (and luck of course).  So, if I'm joe random scrub with a netdeck copy of the latest Ravager Affinity build, I actually now have a better chance to win a constructed PTQ than if I had to rely on my own crappy deckbuilding skills.  People who did this still have to be able to play it well, but it encourages people with dreams of making the big show to invest in the rares they need for these top decks.  And people who get a little success under their belt like winning or making a top 8 at a PTQ event start believing they too can make it to the pro tour and stay there.  It makes it very attractive to spend the dough on the cards.  Everyone thinks they're better than average, so all they need is a good deck and some luck.  It's a psychologically insidious marketing ploy, and it works.  Sorta like random drops in a mmorpg :)  Sure, lots of people try it for a while and get burnt out but there seems to be no end to new players starting up and buying into the dream.  To many players, it;s not deckbuilding that's fun, it's WINNING thats fun.

That being said, no question most people prefer limited over constructed.  But, they do have PTQ and Pro Tour events using these formats too.  I think wotc has done an overall good job since they basically started this whole genre, and many competitors have tried to follow suit with mixed success.

One other point about magic which is true in both paper and online; WotC seems to believe that it's better to shoot for fewer but more hardcore customers that spend more per head than a lot of customer that only buy a little.  It would seem to be a riskier strategy since less customers mean when 1 leaves it effects you more, but those hardcore players spend a LOT per head.  Compare and contrast this to mmorpg subscriptions.  In a mmorpg, both the hardcore and the casual pay the same flat fee a month where as in mtg, the hardcore pay substantially more than the casual; it's basically a usage based system more akin to the old pay by the hour history of mmorpg's than anything else.  I would love to know how much money MTGO has done in sales to compare against subscription revenue from games like EQ and SWG.

Xilren

"..but I'm by no means normal." - Schild
Xilren's Twin
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Reply #15 on: September 23, 2004, 06:24:23 AM

Quote from: AOFanboi
Regarding MtgO, it's not entirely true that you can buy a starter pack and some boosters at the beginning and that's all you need: Expansions are continously rolled in and out of the "standard" constructed tournament set, so your Judgement cards are not useable in a Mirrordin or whatever. But there are lots of other formats to try anyway. Just be aware of the "planned obsolesecence" in the standard format.


Only if you plan to play in serious standard events.  This is why I don;'t play standard constructed unless its just for fun in the casual rooms.  It's too expensive to always stay current in the standard constructed format.  But i think taking magic too seriously is a mistake, same as with mmorpgs; just play for fun.

Fer instance, last night Schild and I threw together some prismatic format decks and had a go.  These decks must have at least 20 cards from each color, and must be a minimum of 250 cards total using; you can use all card expansions and most of the tutors and fact or fiction is banned.  I assembled a 350 card monstrosity of a weenie deck and of course, beat schild to a bloody pulp with it. :-)  Good fun.

Xilren

"..but I'm by no means normal." - Schild
Alkiera
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The best part of SWG was the easy account cancellation process.


Reply #16 on: September 23, 2004, 07:14:29 AM

Quote from: Xilren's Twin
It evens the field in constructed by removing deckbuilding skill from the equation so contests come down to player skill (and luck of course).


But see, I thought the player skill in MtG WAS in deckbuilding.  *I*, knowing nothing about MtG, can manage to play a game of MtG successfulling having read the rules once or twice.  There's little player skill tthere, mostly luck.  Especially if you have a high-power netdeck.  I did this with the trial in MtGO, playing against Lanei, who'd played MtG for years.  Good deck+luck determines the outcome of a match moreso than 'player skill' in the game itself.

Quote from: Margalis
They print the decks of the winners, for one. WHY!?!? Why publish that? Wouldn't it be a lot cooler if you just heard about a deck that was doing well, and to piece together reports of what was in it, what was in the sideboard, etc?

This somewhat proves my point...  Not just Margalis, as I've heard this sentiment from other people who actually follow MtG.  If there was player skill in the game, wouldn't people be more interested when a player was doing well?  Once past the newb barrier, you might as well have the game itself played out by 2 robots.

As a counter-example, the hitting game in baseball requires quite a bit of skill.  Barry Bonds is a great hitter...  I will not be able to to hit 100 mph fastballs by ordering a copy of Barry Bonds' bat from the bat manufacturer.  Whereas, with a copy of the latest Pro Tour net-deck, I, knowing just enough about it to know what the abilities on the cards do, can smush lots of other decks into the ground in MtG.

As a side note, when it comes to deckbuilding, I haven't a clue.

--
Alkiera

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Xilren's Twin
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Reply #17 on: September 23, 2004, 09:35:34 AM

Quote from: Alkiera
But see, I thought the player skill in MtG WAS in deckbuilding.  *I*, knowing nothing about MtG, can manage to play a game of MtG successfulling having read the rules once or twice.  There's little player skill tthere, mostly luck.  Especially if you have a high-power netdeck.  I did this with the trial in MtGO, playing against Lanei, who'd played MtG for years.  Good deck+luck determines the outcome of a match moreso than 'player skill' in the game itself.


That's why I said it was a good thing in terms of keep card sales moving; people who aren't great deckbuilders can take a netdeck and WIN with it, potentially getting to the Pro Tour.  That attracts a lot of marginal players to the constructed scene.  And deckbuilding IS a part of it, which is why there are drafts and limited event in the pro tour too.

BUT, don't kid yourself that playing in a high level tournament doesn't require any skill.  In many way, MTGO babies players by making it hard for them to screw up; triggered affects and optional abilities always ask you "do you want to do this?", mana burn warnings, proper shuffling and tapping, being able to undo land taps.  Having just been to a paper event, you wouldn't believe how common it is to miss little things when playing in real life that could easily cost you games.  And there's a reason many pro players had demostrated consistent success as opposed to the fly by night scrubs who might win a PTQ with a net deck.  Knowing exactly what cards to sibeboard in games 2 and 3, knowing how to play the mirror match, being able to bluff well or make sure you don't put all your land cards on one side of your hand, being methodical so you don't miss optional effects, knowing how to slow play and get away with it etc.  Stuff like that seperates the average players with good decks from the consistent tournament winners with good decks and good playing skills.  It's not just what card does what knowledge, it's how you play the whole game.

As for me personally, doing that stuff well requires so much practice and concetration, it's not nearly as enjoyable for me.  Which is why online suits me much better.

Xilren

"..but I'm by no means normal." - Schild
Margalis
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Reply #18 on: September 23, 2004, 12:34:59 PM

Most of the skill in actually playing Magic is not making mistakes or overlooking things. It's quite possible to play perfect games.

Compared to most sports or skill-based games the player skill side of magic is very low.

If Wizards didn't publish deck lists, they would eventually be found out, but at a much slower rate. If a deck made a big splash for the first time, you wouldn't know all 60+15 cards the next day. You might have to see the deck in a few more tournaments before it became clear what all the cards were and what their numbers were. Do they have 2, 3 or 4 copies of X spell? You can't figure that out from a couple of matches.

Then there is the idea that serious play SHOULD be dominated by a few decks, which should be predictable in advance! That's just a dumb idea.

I think it IS good business sense, but for the opposite reasons given above. LIMITED is where the money is. Constructed is mostly secondary market, buying from other players and shops. In a limited tourney you have to buy X pack for every tournament you enter.

I played a MTGO league and got a Ravager. If I bought 3 more Ravagers, I could make a standard Ravager deck, and I wouldn't have to spend any more after that unless I switched decks. However if I want to play a draft tourney, I have to buy 3 packs from Wizards every time.
---

Limited is basically the serious version of casual constructed. As a newb you don't have a ton of cards, you just go with what you've got. And, the skill is in maximizing what is available to you. Maybe X is not a great card, but it's playable and your job is to maximize it's effectiveness.

In a lot of games, maxmizing what you have given certain limitations is a lot more interesting than an unrestricted free-for-all.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Nebu
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Reply #19 on: September 23, 2004, 12:45:04 PM

I have to say that the majority of the fun I had playing MtG was in sealed deck tourneys.  No building the perfect deck... you played what you had.  

When the game became more about who held a deck with the most bazillion dollar cards, I lost interest.

It's a good game.  It's a fun game.  I even miss the sealed deck tourneys.  I just refuse to get sucked into the "I won because I could load my deck with more high powered cards than you" mentality.  It's almost EQ-esque in some ways.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Xilren's Twin
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Reply #20 on: September 23, 2004, 01:35:35 PM

Quote from: Xilren's Twin
Compare and contrast this to mmorpg subscriptions.  In a mmorpg, both the hardcore and the casual pay the same flat fee a month where as in mtg, the hardcore pay substantially more than the casual; it's basically a usage based system more akin to the old pay by the hour history of mmorpg's than anything else.  I would love to know how much money MTGO has done in sales to compare against subscription revenue from games like EQ and SWG.


Great, now im quoting myself.  Got an inkling to google about and here is what i found...

From a May 9th, 2003 press release on Wizard’s site we get this:

Quote
The Magic Online game broke new ground in the gaming world when it was introduced in June 2002. It is the first trading card game to have a major following online, with more than 12,000 official tournaments each month for players to participate in. Players can build their decks and strategies choosing from 2,099 unique digital Magic cards. Wizards estimates that there are more than 70 million Magic Online cards in circulation.


70 million cards eh; we can do some rough back of the envelope calculations on that.  

From Hasbro’s 2003 financial reports we get this:

Quote
MAGIC ONLINE, which provides players with the ability to compete around the clock via the World Wide Web, has likewise continued to expand and cultivate its fan base throughout 2003, with more than 140,000 registered accounts and millions of logged games.


Magic accounts never go away so no idea how many of those accounts are active.

Since this is almost a year out of date info, Im sure the numbers are higher now but lets pull figures out of our butts.

70million cards; i'll be generous and save a full third of those cards were given away as prizes from various events, leagues, drafts and tournaments; that's roughly 46 million store bought cards.  In further feats of making-up-number madness, lets say cards cost an average of 20 cents a piece (booster prices of $3.69 for 15=24.6 cents each and tournament packs of $11.29 for 75=15 cents each, split the difference for 20).  20 cents a card would equal out to ~$9,200,000 in card sales.  That's not counting event tickets at all, which run $1 and almost any event takes 2 or more to do: they might schedule 12,000 events a month, but lets guesstimate 2,000 events a month gather an averege of 64 players at 3 tickets each; that's another $4.6 million a year right there.

So, in total "pull stats from rectum" mode, let's say mtgo has made $13-17 million dollars in revenue in it's existance, up to mid 2003.  I'd actually say that's a conservative figure, but it gives some idea what ballpark we are in.

Xilren

"..but I'm by no means normal." - Schild
Raging Turtle
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Reply #21 on: September 23, 2004, 08:04:25 PM

Regarding the leve of skill in constructed: there's more to it than many people here seem to think.  Yes, a lot of it comes down to not making mistakes, but for a deck like Raffinity (the current top deck), its very hard to just pick up the deck and when.  Knowing when and what to sacrifice, how to do the crazy stack tricks, what to use the deck's limited removal on, etc.

     Kinda the same thing in poker - No, its not as skill intensive as many people make it out to be, and there's a lot of luck involved, but there's a reason many of the same names keep appearing at the final tables.  Same way in Magic; most people who play constructed seriously know who Kai Budde and Gabriel Nassif are.  However, most people on MTGO don't play constructed seriously; I'd say most people either spend most of their time drafting or playing in the casual rooms.    The REAL skill in magic is in drafting

    And yeah Xilren, MTGO is making a killing.  When they get people to pay full price for digital objects, and they only have to pay for bandwith and not printing and shipping costs, its pretty damn easy given the amount of Magic addicts out there.  

     I've got the next five days off for Chosuk, so hopefully I'll see some of you online.
Margalis
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Reply #22 on: September 23, 2004, 09:06:15 PM

There is a HUGE difference between the skill required in poker and magic. In poker, you don't bring your own deck.

In magic, certain decks stack up very well against certain other decks, and some decks are just plain better than others. It is quite possible in magic to start out at a large disadvantage.

Magic and poker both have the luck of the draw, and skill involved in playing your cards, but in poker you can't choose what to bring to the table.

In magic a lot of the same names end up at the end because they choose the right decks for the metagame, and because player skill does make a difference when everyone is playing similar decks. Obviously if you take deck construction out of the equation skill and the luck of the draw are the only things left.

That said, there just isn't that much skill. Not nearly as much as there could be if actually MAKING a deck was a part of it.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Calantus
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Reply #23 on: September 23, 2004, 10:18:07 PM

The biggest problem with saying that deckbuilding is dead is that it isn't. You can take a net deck and do well with it, but the best players take a netdeck (or not), play it to death against metagame decks, and make changes along the way. You can read all sorts of articles from top players saying "I tried X card but it isn't fast enough" or "I dropped the number of X card down to 3 because you don't want 2 in your opening hand" or "The card is too much of a liability againast non-X decks, so I moved it to the sideboard". The fact is, deck building isn't dead, just that many kiddies choose not to utilize it.

Personally I'm having heaps of fun making a cog deck. I realised yeterday that it is just too cute and redundant to be a teir 1 deck (it's close, but there are better decks that do similar things and are less fragile), but it's fun so I'll keep playing it. There are so many card choices that make such small effects alone but seem to change the deck a whole lot. Just yesterday I put in some Triskelions, but found that while they are a great addition, they have a tendency to clog up your hand along with the salvaging stations (they both cost 6). Plus when you do get them out, they are usually too expensive to properly abuse by bouncing them before they get blasted with arti hate. Good stuff.
Margalis
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Reply #24 on: September 24, 2004, 02:19:33 AM

Yeah, there is still some tweaking, and of course all the net decks have to come from somewhere. However, I still think it would be much much better if the goal was to have every card be good.

There are some cards that could be good in the "right deck" but no right deck exists for them. I can accept that. But every card should at least have potential.

The fact that there is a pretty regular metagame is really sad. I've watched a couple tourny replays on MTGO, and most of them are incredibly boring. I saw a few cool decks, like one that ran land destruction and persecute, and a Tooth and Nail deck that used Etched Oracle to generate card advantage. The vast majority though were extremely standard TaN or Ravager builds, most of which differed from each other by 8 cards at the most.

Compare these two cards: Tel-Jilad Exile vs. Troll Ascetic

Exile - 3G
1G: Regenerate
2/3

Ascetic - 1GG
1G- Regenerate
Cannot be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control.
3/2

Why would these cards be in the same block? Ascetic is clearly way way better. On guys that regen power is better than toughness, and the fact he can't be targeted is huge, and he costs less...

So, Exile in constructed is a dead card. It's nearly impossible to think of a circumstance where it could be better. That's just one example, but there are plenty.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Calantus
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Reply #25 on: September 24, 2004, 04:02:12 AM

I think the reason for disparity in card power is twofold:

1) It's all about selling boosters. There has to be a critical mass of cards for an expansion to work because otherwise you risk players getting everything they want rather quickly. Out of every pack you open, the majority of them are going to be worthless, so you need to buy more boosters to get 15 cards that are either worthwhile for you to either play or trade. Thus, more boosters are sold. Coming up with all those cards being good would be fairly difficult, so they cop-out by padding the expansion with a little crapola.

2) It's all about limited. Tel Jalid exile is nothing special, but he's decent for filling out your creature count, plus regen can be really useful at times. I've personally lost a round because of this card, regen is just that strong of a mechanic sometimes. I'm sure I would have hated ascetic more, and my opponent would have loved it, but you don't always see an ascetic in the packs. Alot of cards are like this, cards that would never see play in constructed are either decent, filler you hate but will use if you have to, or  can even be very good indeed. I think that's healthy. It would be too difficult for me to describe exactly how, and if you draft you probably understand how, but I think subpar cards are very healthy for limited. I think it would kill alot of how the format works if all cards were of the same relative worth.


As far as the exile/ascetic example I think that is just fine. One card is subpar, but it's still quite playable in limited and is thus healthy for the format IMO. It's cards like chimney imp where you would never play if you had a brain (if you just HAD to play it you might as well quit now) that I'm not sure if a good case can be made for. It might be that it's good there are cards that no-one wants, as it makes for less overall playables in a limited pool, and thus makes deckmaking a little harder. I've heard quite a number of draft veterens hating on MDF because there are too many playables. Maybe they have a point, maybe not.

I don't think it is too much of a problem though, but I get almost all of my boosters through limited, so I don't usually get the sensation of opening a pack and seeing nothing of use.
Xilren's Twin
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Reply #26 on: September 24, 2004, 05:50:01 AM

Quote from: Calantus
1) It's all about selling boosters.

2) It's all about limited.

I don't think it is too much of a problem though, but I get almost all of my boosters through limited, so I don't usually get the sensation of opening a pack and seeing nothing of use.


Agreed.  And let me throw in one additional factor to consider.  Who do you want to cater to in your design phase? Just standard constructed for serious players?  That would be like designing future expansions of your mmorpg for just the catass crowd, which I though was commonly accepted as not a wise thing to do.  It would simply reinforce the gap between the two groups making it less and less attractive to new players and current casual players.  Eventually, you would end up with a small niche game that only appeals to the hardcore.

Let's face it; serious players who either stay on the pro tour or make it thru PTQ's semi regularly don't buy individual boosters; they buy boxes and cases of the things, and buy needed singles they need.  Their goal is to always have 4 of everything they need to play with in contructed.  So those individual booster sales really only stem from limited play, and casual player.  There are still people who just play magic with their friends and never go to tournaments at all.

WotC started the Friday Night Magic concept some time back to try and spur the development of casual friendly events in gaming stores.  Their goal of course is to push these players along in the hopes they will become serious players, who spend a lot per captia.

It is all about the benejamins to wotc, and they clearly benefit from supporting both serious constructed AND limited formats.  So it's not a horrible thing that some cards will only see use in limited play, or even multiplayer, so long as the formats continue to be available and supported.

The more varieties there are, the more people they can hook.

Xilren

"..but I'm by no means normal." - Schild
Soukyan
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Reply #27 on: September 24, 2004, 06:12:59 AM

Quick note on the comparison to other MMOGs. You could compare MTGO to any online board game or card game to be sure (chess, checkers, backgammon, poker, etc.), but the comparison to MMORPGs is flawed for one simple reason. Player vs. Avatar. Online games are social and they build the skillsets of the player. MMORPGs are social as well, but are set up to build the skillset of a virtual avatar. The only player skillset that gets built by MMORPGs is typing and perhaps a little number crunching and minor strategy. Games that have strikingly simple gameplay, but offer vast options and strategy have always been fun so translating them into computer format does not diminish that entertainment, especially when you can involve other players online instead of playing against AI. MMORPGs are based on a system that has rules and regulations out the wazoo. How could we ever expect it to be translated into something fun on a PC? D&D is essentially cooperative storytelling. That's where all the fun comes... from the roleplay. Alas, the computer version of it concentrate on the gameplay of D&D rather than the creativity. What this means is we get a digitized form of incrementing a counter to increment another counter to increment another counter to... The actual fun of the game that MMORPGs are based upon was never figured into the equation. Either that or the players forgot which portion made the game enjoyable. With MTGO, you can't miss the fun. It's a card game. You need the cards and your wits to play it. Both need to show up at the table or you cannot play the game.

"Life is no cabaret... we're inviting you anyway." ~Amanda Palmer
"Tree, awesome, numa numa, love triangle, internal combustion engine, mountain, walk, whiskey, peace, pascagoula" ~Lantyssa
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Raging Turtle
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Reply #28 on: September 24, 2004, 06:35:44 AM

A good read on why all the cards can't be good, by one of the developers:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mr52

I suck at posting websites, sorry.  Anyway, its interesting whether you agree or not, just to see the developer's viewpoint.  I think the concept that 'bad cards might become good later' is flawed, but the rest makes sense.  [/url]
Margalis
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Reply #29 on: September 24, 2004, 11:52:12 AM

Bad cards sometimes do become good, and some cards could be good if they found the right deck but never really do. And some cards are good in limited, some good in constructed. I can accept that.

What I can't accept are artifacts like "gain 1 life any time an opponent plays a red spell." These types of cards are always useless, yet they keep printing them over and over again.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
schild
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Reply #30 on: September 24, 2004, 11:54:50 AM

Quote from: Margalis
What I can't accept are artifacts like "gain 1 life any time an opponent plays a red spell." These types of cards are always useless, yet they keep printing them over and over again.




Sorry I couldn't help myself. BTW, that's an alpha, 5th edition and obviously a 7th edition there. Always crappy, always there.
Margalis
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Reply #31 on: September 24, 2004, 05:06:20 PM

The Core Set has basically turned into a junk set. But Mirrodin block has some of those same things, and it is supposed to be an EXPERT set.

Angel Feather, for example, is gain 1 life for every white spell..yay!

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Raging Turtle
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Reply #32 on: September 24, 2004, 05:30:23 PM

If you read the article I posted, it explains why those specific life gain cards are always reprinted- new players like them, and they're an important part of learning about the game, and slowly learning why cards are good or bad.  the new versions in Mirrodin (angel feather, etc) are just there so they can replace the old ones in the 9th edition core set.
Calantus
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Reply #33 on: September 24, 2004, 10:54:52 PM

Wow, that article did sum it up perfectly for me, and I have to say I agree with him. Does anybody else remember the sensation of realising that something sucked even though you thought it was good? One day you look down at your coveted card and think, hang on, that's actually pretty shitty, 1 mana for one life, and IF I play a green spell, IF I have a mana open. Or the day you realise that scaled wurm might own, but beating face with a grizzly bear for the past 5 turns is much better. It's a great feeling to go from the scrub who just throws in stuff that looks cool to actually making a deck of efficient creatures and useful spells (consequently it makes it less fun for your friends, I distinctly remember my green deck being banned at one point).

/me is convinced

That email the guy sent in was funny though: "I have never in all my years seen anyone play a Lion's Eye Diamond, for ANY reason"...

Quote
Type 1.5 Deck Construction
...
Banned Cards
...
Lion’s Eye Diamond
...


Quote
Type 1 Deck Construction
...
Restricted Cards
...
Lion’s Eye Diamond
...


Heh.
AOFanboi
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Reply #34 on: September 25, 2004, 03:10:29 AM

Quote from: Calantus
One day you look down at your coveted card and think, hang on, that's actually pretty shitty, 1 mana for one life, and IF I play a green spell, IF I have a mana open. Or the day you realise that scaled wurm might own, but beating face with a grizzly bear for the past 5 turns is much better.

But this ignores that a card that is shitty on its own can rule in combos with others. That Scaled Wurm is king if you can discard it, then bring it into play from the graveyard for 3W (Breath of Life).

(Those "1 for life when spell played" cards were king back when the rules weren't as clear, and you could trigger it multiple times per spell cast. :) These days it's just one more cheap artifact to add to "Affinity for artifacts" or to be sacrificed to a Krak-Clan Shaman or the like.)

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