Career advice wanted

[Riggswolfe]

Currently I work in the IT department of a State Agency. There is a chance I'll be getting an offer to go work for Boeing doing the same job soon. Here are my current thoughts on it all:

State:

Pros:
-Security: The state's not going anywhere. The worst thing that's happened to state employees was having to take some furlough days when the state had horrible money issues.
-Great benefits, including a pension on retirement

Cons:
-Raises in this state only happen when the legislature votes for them. We don't even get cost of living raises. Before I started working here state workers hadn't had a raise in 6 years.
-In my current agency I have nowhere to go. I'm at the top (or will be once my promotion is confirmed) of my current job description here.
-No training is provided or reimbursed for.

Boeing:
Pros:
The starting pay is almost 15K a year more than what I make at the state, for the same job.
Training reimbursement.
Annual merit-based raises.

Cons:
It's private industry and that means things like lay-offs are possible. The branch I'd be working for rarely gets hit by lay-offs though because it works with the government and is in fact in a building on an air-force base.
Retirement package won't be as sweet.

So, do you guys have any advice? It really all boils down to money vs security.

[JWIV]

15K goes a long ways towards the other state bennies such as typically more days off and better insurance, so not particularly worthwhile to discuss them.

However, you mention upward mobility (or the lack thereof) as a negative for your current position.   Does Boeing have a career path after you move into it that you want to pursue?

[Nebu]

Since I'm looking at a job change as well, here are some things that I'm thinking about:

1) Will the salary at the new position allow you the same or better standard of living?  If you mean Boeing in Seattle, the place is crazy expensive.  

2) What do you like about your current job?  What do you dislike?  Will you be getting to do more of the former and less of the latter in the new position?

3) Is this a genuine job change or is it just looking on the other side of the fence to see if the grass is greener?  (I ask myself this one a lot).

4) Does the new job offer you something that your current job lacks?  Since you're entertaining the position, there must be something you're discontent about.

5) Are there other reasons that you're considering the move?  Closer to family or friends?  Change of scenery?  

I know that you already addressed many of these, I just like to make lists.

 

[SnakeCharmer]

Before I made the jump from employee to owner, I jumped jobs on average of about every other year.  Everytime I moved, I increased my pay and benefits, more responsibility, etc.  Each time I moved, it was a relative risk.  That being said, I am by nature a risk taker.  So take what I say with a grain of salt if it goes against your natural tendencies.

I guess it depends solely on what you want out of life.  Are you happy with status quo?  That meaning, are you happy with what you're making, and potential earnings through state employment down the road?  Some people are fine with that, and it's perfectly ok.  The security of the job, that sort of thing.  Money isn't everything to all people.

But if you have ambitions beyond what you're doing now, I'd say take the Boeing job.  You can't be afraid of layoffs (though prepare for them ahead of time with a nest egg), or getting fired, etc.  It's most likely going to happen at one stage of your career.

I suppose it comes down to what material wants you have.  My material wants are fairly high, combined with the fact I want to be retired at age 55 and still be able to maintain my current standard of living (which admittedly is a bit on the high side).  I want to not worry about money.  I want to be able to travel, send my kid(s) to the best schools, that sort of thing.  I'll admit to having a bit of 'Keeping up with the Joneses' complex, and success in business feeds my ego a bit.  My wife is loving the stay at home mom bit, and is all giddy about not having to work anymore and be a room mom, and the car pool mom, and all that.  

To me, it's all about the pursuit of the American dream; or rather my own version of it.

[angry.bob]

So, do you guys have any advice? It really all boils down to money vs security.

Stay with security, especially in the IT field. I don't know what you do, so the benefits of security vary wildly. If you're doing network or server stuff, fuck it - go for the money. If you're doing stuff on the mainframe side of things, never, ever, leave that state job for anything.

[Riggswolfe]

Since I'm looking at a job change as well, here are some things that I'm thinking about:

1) Will the salary at the new position allow you the same or better standard of living?  If you mean Boeing in Seattle, the place is crazy expensive.  

It's Boeing on Tinker Air Force base in Oklahoma City where I already live, so there'd be no relocation.

2) What do you like about your current job?  What do you dislike?  Will you be getting to do more of the former and less of the latter in the new position?

Likes about my current job: Independence, my boss, my coworkers, my benefits. Dislikes: Earning 25-50% less than private industry and no training. New position: My best friend works at Boeing and used to work in the department I'd be going into. They reimburse training and encourage cross-training. For instance, learning about Unix servers from a woman I already know there may be possible.

3) Is this a genuine job change or is it just looking on the other side of the fence to see if the grass is greener?  (I ask myself this one a lot).

I'd be doing probably the exact same job. I might have less responsibilities actually.

4) Does the new job offer you something that your current job lacks?  Since you're entertaining the position, there must be something you're discontent about.

Three things:

1) More money
2) Training (expanding my IT knowledge is very important to me.)
3) Oppurtunity. In the state, since I can't get training it's hard to move to a different position. Couple that with people not leaving until they retire usually and it's worse.

5) Are there other reasons that you're considering the move?  Closer to family or friends?  Change of scenery?

No. As I said, it's in the city I'm in now. It'd be a longer commute actually, by about 15 minutes or more depending on traffic. I would be working for the same company as my best friend though so that'd be nice but isn't a major factor. I should add that part of why I even put in the resume is that he's been networking for me for 5 years or so up there, so I know alot of the people I'd work with already.

Stay with security, especially in the IT field. I don't know what you do, so the benefits of security vary wildly. If you're doing network or server stuff, fuck it - go for the money. If you're doing stuff on the mainframe side of things, never, ever, leave that state job for anything.

I'm mostly on the PC side of things. Maintaining Windows PCs, imaging machines, stuff like that. I'm basically on the very bottom rung of IT support. One of the attractive things to me is that I've been told I can work with a woman there to learn how to support Unix servers, as well as get reimbursed for certifications. (I've paid for my own A+ and should be getting my XP certification in about a month, again paid for by myself.) While I often take things from companies with a grain of salt, this came from my friend, and this woman once helped me doctor my resume to try to get hired in as an apprentice to her, for lack of a better phrase, so I know she is willing and even wants to show me the ropes. Right now her staff has shrunk from her and two others, to just her and they've bought like 6 new Unix servers.

I don't want to just do the same PC support stuff for the rest of my life and I think that is one reason I'm considering the move. Basically, I'll have a better chance at oppurtunities to grow and learn more stuff and make myself more educated and valuable to a company.

[Salamok]

I have never worked for a state agency but I know a few people who have.  They always seem to think the best way to break through to the next level is to leave and come back.

Also, how many years do you have with the state?  Many times after a set period (ten years usually) some of your bennies get locked in for life (like insurance).  This may not be overly important as Boeing is large enough to have a decent insurance package but you never know how long you will be there.  I work for a fairly small company and while individual insurance here is okay, if I were to opt for a family plan it would cost me over $900 a month.

If it were me I would take the new job and keep as many contacts as I could back at the state office, let em all know if new opportunities were to come up you would consider coming back.

[Yegolev]

My advice is to go for it.  If you're on the bottom rung of IT then I'd really encourage it.  Don't worry about layoffs, instead if it happens you just need to make finding a job your job;  in fact I'd be looking for new jobs without the threat of being laid-off.  My experience in IT is that you don't get promoted, you change jobs to move up.  I don't know how much time with state government you have, but I figure a few years with Boeing will look loads better to other companies should the time to send out resumes come along again.

You can't live your life in fear.

[JWIV]

My advice is to go for it.  If you're on the bottom rung of IT then I'd really encourage it.  Don't worry about layoffs, instead if it happens you just need to make finding a job your job;  in fact I'd be looking for new jobs without the threat of being laid-off.  My experience in IT is that you don't get promoted, you change jobs to move up.  I don't know how much time with state government you have, but I figure a few years with Boeing will look loads better to other companies should the time to send out resumes come along again.

You can't live your life in fear.

Yeg's got a good grasp of it.  Being able to gain some experience supporting things on the UNIX side of the house will only make you more valuable and open opportunities for you.

[Riggswolfe]

I only have 2 years with the state so I'm barely started and wouldn't be losing alot of retirement or anything like that. I think I will go for it, assuming I get an offer of course, I may be counting chickens before they hatch.

[schild]

I was going to give some advice given how many corporations I worked with.

But I have no clue what a "career" is. It seems like creative death to me and I can't wrap my brain around the concept.

[Roac]

Regarding pay difference; make sure that the extra 15k/yr isn't getting eaten up by putting it toward retirement (401k etc).  I work for SC state, and although we do pay into our pension it's a pittance.  This may be offset by employer matching.

If you're with state, have you looked into other agencies?  Here, every agency is like another company; if I switch, it can be night and day in how things operate.  It also means there is an opportunity for pay increase (if they want to bring me over, they have to entice me) or growth opportunity. 

In my case, I've had offers for private work, but the pay raise is often eaten up by either cost of living differences (if I have to relocate) or travel (because there's almost nothing here, but there are in nearby cities).  I'd rather not move due to family, so this is the best opportunity for me.  If I were in Charlotte or Atlanta, things would probably be different.

In your case, 2y is nothing as far as vested interest in state.  You're not walking away from much, and if you are really interested in state retirement, you'd do better to leave, get more money, and get pulled in at your higher salary.  However, do keep in mind the option of other jobs within state as well, because hopping around that way can work. 

[Engels]

Also, compare benefits package, and how much the employee is expected to pay into it. It can vary wildly. Finally, one big shock going from public to private is the fairly rigid policy regarding time off. When you join the private sector, you are their bitch, period.

[Merusk]

Ed: Bah Roac posted what I was getting at much better.

[Riggswolfe]

Hmmmm you guys have made some good points. I'm not sure how much the employee is asked to pay into their benefits, though I hear that Boeing has good benefits.

[Murgos]

Finally, one big shock going from public to private is the fairly rigid policy regarding time off. When you join the private sector, you are their bitch, period.

I have had the opposite experience.  I worked for a state grant funded NPO with lots of crossover from other state and federal agencies and we had Flex time.  Except that to them, Flex time was 'commit in writing a week in advance a request for what hours you need to Flex'.  Flex time for my current company (we have Boeing, General Dynamics, Raytheon, Lockheed Martin and etc... resident engineers here so I know they follow pretty much the same policy), at least at my level, is that Flex time means work whatever times you want as long as you meet your commitments.  I have to let people know if I am going to miss a day and make it up some other time but otherwise taking an hour to attend to something personal isn't even worthy of trying to track down my manager to let him know.

[Baldrake]

Security is a relative thing. If you're posting here, you're probably fairly young -- say 20-30 years more of employment ahead of you. What are the odds that your state job will be around that long? My belief is that a lot of current IT work will become more commodity over time, and become outsourced. So it's important to have a career path which leads to increased seniority, allowing you to adapt to whatever unpredictable changes come over the next few decades.

So take that as affirmation of the decision you seem to have already made.

[Riggswolfe]

So take that as affirmation of the decision you seem to have already made.

I seem to have made it but I keep waffling back and forth. There are so many factors and it's a large change. I'm 35 so yeah, I should have 30 or so years ahead of me. OTOH I am at an age where I'm looking forward and seeing that I want to pad my nest egg. I'm really hoping to stay in place for as long as possible if I do move as far as working for the same company for as long as possible. I think my problem is that I'm not a risk-taker. I'm not really risk-averse but I like to think about things before a big change as well.

[Trippy]

Take the Boeing job.

[Yegolev]

The difference in "career" and "job" is that a job is just what you are doing for money.  The career is your path to the grave from a financial perspective.  The career is far more important than the job, and I suggest treating jobs like temporary states on your way to your endpoint.  Like how an awesome bonfire is composed of many small and unfulfilling pieces of wood.  Note how this line of thought absolves you from any sort of corporate loyalty and helps you focus on what's important: yourself.

[Signe]

What is it with you lot and your obsession with having jobs? 

Also, I thought you were going to go back to lawyer school, Nebu.  I was looking forward to suggesting Dr. Nebu, Attorney at Law, for your greif tittle.   

[Yegolev]

What is it with you lot and your obsession with having jobs?

Ask the wife.

[Nebu]

I think people put too much emphasis on pay.  It's all about "feel" for me when it comes to the job. 

What kind of vibe do you get from the place?  Do the other employees drone around or are they energetic?  Is this a position that you could find yourself happier to get out of bed for in the morning?  Do you see it taking you places that your current job can't? If you're in an environment where you're happy, you'll fluorish.  With that comes not only personal, but financial satisfaction.  Yeah, I sound like a sap... but you have to want to get out of bed in the morning. 

It sounds like a nice opportunity and something that you're excited about.  I say go for it!

[Yegolev]

I submit that feel is important only if you plan on sticking around for a while.

[Bunk]

What is it with you lot and your obsession with having jobs?

Ask the wife.

Ask my mortgage broker.

[Merusk]

I submit that feel is important only if you plan on sticking around for a while.

I concurr.  Of course, the idea philosophy Yeg just outlined is much in-line with my own, so it stands to reason that I'd agree.

Also, never forget three things.  1) You're replacable.  2) If you're not replacable, you're also not promotable. 3) No company deserves your loyalty, because you're a toner cartridge.  Something that's there to be used as a resource and replaced.

Most people fuck up #3 most often.

[Nebu]

I submit that feel is important only if you plan on sticking around for a while.

I always plan to stay for the long haul until they inevitably beat that desire out of me... then I leave.

[Selby]

I always plan to stay for the long haul until they inevitably beat that desire out of me... then I leave.

Which is the best way to be.  Only getting a job for 6-12mo on the money grab philosophy may work for some, but some managers may see right through that in a job interview and not hire you.  While most companies aren't loyal to their employees like "the olden days" people like to wax nostalgic about, being loyal to your employer is rarely ever a bad thing.

I'd go with the private sector job if the vibe is right and another 15 minutes onto the commute won't steal your soul, if just to get away from the lower rung IT work.  I did that for the state for 3 years and hated every bit of it due to the stupid rules and regulations that go along with state jobs.  Layoffs are a fact of life in the private sector, but people also move around more there as well which can keep layoffs from affecting you too much.

[Margalis]

You can pick up a lot of training by reading and messing around on your own. Learning by doing is always better than a quick training thing, I tend to ignore certifications and training courses when I am hiring.

So I wouldn't be too jazzed about having training paid for, but working with someone who knows their shit in that subject would be good. You can always get Linux or Solaris or something on a home machine and mess around with it there too.

The opportunity to learn more is important, if you want to get paid more, have more responsibility, have less chance of losing your job and better chance of finding a new one or just like to know stuff.

[Montague]

With regards to layoffs, I can give you some perspective on that.

I was laid off from a Fortune 100 bank a few years ago. I was given 90 days notice, 10 weeks of severance pay, job referrals, the whole nine yards.

If you're not relocating, and the job market in your area isn't totally depressed (which Oklahoma City definitely shouldn't be) by all means go for the Boeing job. Top-flight corporations like Boeing usually have very generous severance packages and benefits if you're downsized. As long as you take reasonable precautions with savings the risk from being laid off should be minimal.

[Riggswolfe]

You can pick up a lot of training by reading and messing around on your own. Learning by doing is always better than a quick training thing, I tend to ignore certifications and training courses when I am hiring.

So I wouldn't be too jazzed about having training paid for, but working with someone who knows their shit in that subject would be good. You can always get Linux or Solaris or something on a home machine and mess around with it there too.

The opportunity to learn more is important, if you want to get paid more, have more responsibility, have less chance of losing your job and better chance of finding a new one or just like to know stuff.

Well, the certifications are important to me because they get me past the HR department and into the interview. I also tend to think they show I'm interested in  learning more which can't hurt. I also will learn some from them though I learn better on the job than I do from a book. Still, every little bit helps.

I also tend to like learning even in  class room. If I was rich I'd be a professional student and just take college classes until I couldn't stand it anymore.

[DarkDryad]

Untill two weeks ago I would have said stay where you are but I recently left the company I was working for on the AF base and took a job in town as network admin in thier IT dept. I have to say that I feel 100% refreshed in my career. Its absofuckinlutly wonderfull. I say jump ship.

[Roac]

Hmmmm you guys have made some good points. I'm not sure how much the employee is asked to pay into their benefits, though I hear that Boeing has good benefits.

This is part of your total compensation - don't ignore it.  Now, if you're desperate for a job it doesn't really matter.  My first job was "you mean you'll take me?  YEY!".  My standards are now a fair bit higher :)  Keep in mind that your benefits package could ruin an attractive salary, or put a gold lining on an otherwise mediocre one.  State pension is heavily undervalued; at 48 I'll be retired, with my house paid for, and making more money that when I was working.  Oh, and I can turn around and work private and still pull state retirement+health (some limitations, but close enough).  But I started young, and it's much less attractive to someone in their mid 30s.  With only 2y in, you're not that far enough along that it matters much, and Boeing could smack that down easily if they match 401k high enough. 

But look at health too.  Gov't tends to do well here also, but a big company like Boeing could come out ahead.  Boeing will also be able to offer other benefits that state typically can't, such as stock options, business perks (eg, the cable company gives their premium package to employees) , expense cards, and whatever else.  State health premiums may beat Boeing, but the rest could put it even, and the salary at Boeing tip scales that way.

Also career path.  If you're at the top of your game at state, unless there's another agency(s) you can switch to at some point, you're done.  If you're fine with that, that's ok, but what if you want to advance?  If you're willing to relocate Boeing has a lot to offer.  If not they may as well, but consider all sides on that. 

[naum]

I don't evaluate jobs any other criteria other than a simple "will I enjoy working there?"… …more money can always be made, but time is an irreplaceable resource… …therefore, jobs that pay great dough but suck up my life and time are verboten…

…and even today, I work for peanuts but it's a job where I basically do what I want and supplement it with side contracts (until clients/customers annoyance factor grows large, then even that is dumped)…

Find a job you love to do and you'll never work a day the rest of your life.

Or you could go setup that 4 hour workweek deal and have virtual assistants in India do all the work for you… …make dollars, pay rupees and live on pesos…

[Yegolev]

Since you mentioned it, operating an IT contracting firm is like printing your own money.  Not something I'm equipped to break into, sadly.