Lack of tanks

[Merusk]

I don't know that system, but I can guess.  A different paperdoll to put items that are seen but not actually worn?  The stats and effects come from the "real" paperdoll, but aren't seen unless you want them to be?

I could dig that.

Yep, that's my understanding of it.  Sounds awesome.. too bad it's in EQ which has the most horrible armor models EVER.  Seriously, even DAoC beat them.

Imagine the crying that would result from the arena peoples.

Meh, pvp in the game is fucked anyway.  It was slapped-on at the end, and it's gotten worse as time has gone on and the dev team cycles through members.

[Dren]

Imagine the crying that would result from the arena peoples.

It would be like the old UO days.  Just wear a robe and a jester's cap to fool everyone.

"Hey, look this newb in cloth is attacking me.  What the....  OooOOOoOOOO"

[Fordel]

I don't see why, you can't tell shit from the current armor anyways. Shit, some of the non set pieces for 70 gear reuse the level 5 armor models.


The only downside would be every single paladin would wear tier2 for their visible slots, every, single, one.

[Paelos]

I'd wear the T3 Warrior Naxx set. I've always thought it was the best looking design by Blizzard.

[Xanthippe]

I would not have my shoulder pieces visible.  I just hate them all.

My nightelf's ears always pierce the pieces, and it looks awful.  My human warlock has these gigantic spikes coming off them.

The best shoulders are the first ones - around level 20.

[murdoc]

That'd be a terrible decision. You'd get more dumbasses rolling need on stuff that doesn't help their class at all, but because 'it looks good on my Tauren'.

[Dren]

That'd be a terrible decision. You'd get more dumbasses rolling need on stuff that doesn't help their class at all, but because 'it looks good on my Tauren'.

/guildkicktothecurb

[Sogrinaugh]

I would not have my shoulder pieces visible.  I just hate them all.

My nightelf's ears always pierce the pieces, and it looks awful.  My human warlock has these gigantic spikes coming off them.

The best shoulders are the first ones - around level 20.

My god yes.  I fucking dispise WoW's shoulder armor and blizzards stubborn refusal to give us a toggle to disable it, like they do with helms and cloaks.  Obscene shoulder armor is why i have never made a male orc, and why i stopped leveling my male draeni mage at lvl 30 (when i got the RFK shoulders and realized "oh boy another LOLSHOULDERS toon").

[Calantus]

I like the shoulders and think you have no taste.

[Chenghiz]

I think the shoulders fit the overall style of Warcraft well but in a traditional fantasy sense they're really over the top and I can see why someone expecting a medieval fantasy setting wouldn't like them. I think they're awesome though.

[Merusk]

Depends on the fantasy settings you pay attention to and enjoy.  Western Euro rip-offs, Caldwell, 80's D&D stuff? Yeah, over the top.  They fit-in with the Warhammer/ miniature style that Warcraft rips-off just fine though.  They also work if you're into anime fantasy stuff since all of that genre seems to aim for large, garish pauldrons as well.

People hate the giantstalker shoulders, but I thought they were fantastic.  I'm digging my T5-model arena shoulders as well, although the 'floatyness' of them does bother me at times.

[Righ]

The problem with the giantstalker shoulders is that they make an orc look like a table lamp.

[Jayce]

I created my orc during the "tiny shoulders" era.  Imagine my surprise when I logged in one day and found two giant frondy plants had just erupted around my head.

[Xanthippe]

There's an option to turn off capes and hats - why not shoulders?

I don't care if other people like them - vive le difference and all that - but bleh I'm so sick of my nightelf's ears poking through them.  My toon looks like a football player.

[Paelos]

There's an option to turn off capes and hats - why not shoulders?

I don't care if other people like them - vive le difference and all that - but bleh I'm so sick of my nightelf's ears poking through them.  My toon looks like a football player.

Probably because they are the only really identifiable thing on your character other than your helm and weapon. Everything else just looks the same from a distance. The option to turn off the helm is because people like to see their face on their toon, and the reasoning behind the cape is that it blocks the visability of your other gear from behind. If you start turning off shoulders, there's not really much point in wearing armor at all.

[Nebu]

If you start turning off shoulders, there's not really much point in wearing armor at all.

Still... giving the player more options to tailor their look = good. 

[Paelos]

If you start turning off shoulders, there's not really much point in wearing armor at all.

Still... giving the player more options to tailor their look = good. 

See, I disagree on the shoulder element. That's not really tailoring your look. That's denying it completely. The shoulders are a very telling mark of what kind of player you are, and they are one of the few things that people notice on your character outside of a giant weapon.

[Nebu]

See, I disagree on the shoulder element. That's not really tailoring your look. That's denying it completely. The shoulders are a very telling mark of what kind of player you are, and they are one of the few things that people notice on your character outside of a giant weapon.

I don't play games for other people and I don't need gear to show off what I've done in a game.  If I like the way I look, that's all that matters to me.  If you don't like the way I look... oh well.  You're not paying the bills.  Like I said, the more customization options, the better.  The game is already weak when it comes to character look customization and could benefit from allowing the players to do more to customize their appearance.

[Paelos]

I think you're missing my point. I don't disagree with more customization of a character. I disagree with the turning off things as a solution. That's not solving anything. What we should be able to do is customize the gear we collect. We should be able to select features on the shoulders, change the colors of our armor, and create a personal look.

You should have more customization options in the higher level gear you collect instead of less.

[Fabricated]

The problem is that art is hard I guess despite Blizzard having a gigantic staff of very well paid artists and Scrooge McDuck's money bin.

I'm fine with the amount of armor and models in the game at the moment. I liked a lot of the Tier 0->2 recolors + most of the Dungeon Set 3 despite them intentionally making them all boring compared to the glowly-gigantic-shouldered Tier 4-6.

I'm hoping that WotLK will have a lot of new armor/weapon graphics of a more sane variety since the theme is back to gothic-fantasy and not high-fantasy. Also, they're out of shit to recolor. Tier 0, 1, 2 have been done and done again (Some Tier 0-2 pieces got TWO recolors), Tier 4-6 are recolored/skinned for Arenas, and that leaves Tier 3. I'd love to see some Tier 3 recolors at first but they're gonna have to come up with a lot of new stuff I think. Blizzard will never do it but it would be kinda cool if they made blue+ dungeon drops mildly customizable...like, you can adjust your armor pieces 2-4 ways. Re-arrange spikes/significant features, or what shoulder is bigger, or make it cover just one shoulder, change any glow/shimmer effect colors, maybe a couple pallet swaps.

It'd be nice if random-greens and quest greens got some more love though in graphics. Level 70 random-greens are used as placeholders for a lot of people trying to get geared to raid (or because some random-green weapons and armor pieces can be surprisingly good with the right suffixes), and shit if all the random-greens look AWFUL.

[Merusk]

Provided I understand the way PCs work correctly on the model/ video end of things; ultimately the problem becomes, artwork = resources.  An increase in resource requirements = lower end PCs drop off.. sometimes pretty damn fast.

I imagine there's people playing the game who still only have a 64mb vid card.

[Nebu]

Well... since there appears to be a lack of tanks, I've decided to level one on the Hoard side when my alliance rogue gets bored.  I was thinking of making a tauren warrior, but would like to hear what you guys think would be the best race for a hoard warrior.  Any suggestions on race and on spec for solo/duo leveling?

Thanks.

[ShenMolo]

Well... since there appears to be a lack of tanks, I've decided to level one on the Hoard side when my alliance rogue gets bored.  I was thinking of making a tauren warrior, but would like to hear what you guys think would be the best race for a hoard warrior.  Any suggestions on race and on spec for solo/duo leveling?

Thanks.

Easy answer:

Choose the class you like to look at, because your going to spend 20+ days looking at his/her ass. Seriously though they all have advantages so choose what you like to look at / play.

Min/Max:

Go Tauren if you want to be primarily a Tank. Orc/Troll if you want to primarily DPS. Undead/Tauren if you want to primarily PvP.


Racial Bonuses:

Tauren have an advantage as tanks because of the additional +5% HP they get as a racial, also warstomp (aoe stun), a great tool for pvp

Orcs get additional Axe skill, which helps at high end raiding as dps in that you don't need to stack as much +hit (really helpful for dual wielding, this dynamic is changing however in the next patch, not sure whats changing, sorry), they also get Blood Frenzy, a nice dps oriented attack power buff, also get resistance to stuns

Undead get the ability to eat their victims, helping speed up downtime and save on food (whee), they also get resistance to fear effects, not to be discounted if you enjoy PvP

Trolls get berzerking, which increases attack speed every so often, dps oriented, also get bonus health regen

EDIT:

Forgot to include a spec for you. You will want to level up with dps talents for soloing. You can tank any pre 70 instance without a single point in protection, especially pre-60.

I suggest speccing Arms, and using the best 2 H weapon you can get your hands on. Some time after 20 you can play around with dual wielding. Some people say 2H will be higher dps than DW until you get good gear at 60+. Try both. The spec below is for 2 H Arms.

Here is the spend order for your points, with a focus on dps/soloing (although you can tank fine with this).

There are, ofcourse, many viable alternatives to this:

5/5 Cruelty (5% crit rate)
3/3 Imp Heroic Strike
2/5 Deflection
3/3 Imp Thunder Clap
2/2 Imp Charge
3/3 Deep Wounds
1/1 Anger Management
1/2 Imp Overpower
2/2 Impale
3/5 2H Specialization
5/5 Pole Axe Specialization (farm for many of the great axes available in instances at this level, not to mention your class axe at 40ish)

At level 40, respec to:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LIMcdAio00z

Then from 41 on go up the fury tree as such:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LIMcdAio00zZVV0VMgoV

Again, you might want at some point to use a DW build. There are lots of good guides for this, especially on the WoW Europe Warrior forums.

Good Luck

[Phred]

Well... since there appears to be a lack of tanks, I've decided to level one on the Hoard side when my alliance rogue gets bored.  I was thinking of making a tauren warrior, but would like to hear what you guys think would be the best race for a hoard warrior.  Any suggestions on race and on spec for solo/duo leveling?

Thanks.

Easy answer:

Choose the class you like to look at, because your going to spend 20+ days looking at his/her ass. Seriously though they all have advantages so choose what you like to look at / play.

Min/Max:

Go Tauren if you want to be primarily a Tank. Orc/Troll if you want to primarily DPS. Undead/Tauren if you want to primarily PvP.


Racial Bonuses:

Tauren have an advantage as tanks because of the additional +5% HP they get as a racial, also warstomp (aoe stun), a great tool for pvp

Orcs get additional Axe skill, which helps at high end raiding as dps in that you don't need to stack as much +hit (really helpful for dual wielding, this dynamic is changing however in the next patch, not sure whats changing, sorry), they also get Blood Frenzy, a nice dps oriented attack power buff, also get resistance to stuns

Weapon  skill hasn't effected to hit since BC came out actually. I don't know why they chose to fuck with it but they still haven't figured out what benefit they want it to have as they are changing it again in 2.23. No idea why they changed it except for the interminable complaints about the advantages of human rogues from other rogues.

[Jayce]

I did the same thing (create a warrior because of the lack of tanks, and because I love tanking).  I probably should have gone Tauren, but I went orc because I like Orcs better.  Whatever.

I once leveled as an Arms warrior, years ago, and I have to say leveling as pure fury has been a lot better IMO.  The trees have been revamped though, so YMMV.  I just find it more boring to wait 2-3 seconds for a big 2hander to finally swing, I guess, and fury has all the good dual wield talents.

Couple of points to ShenMolo's post:
Trolls get attack speed and run buff at low health with berzerking.
The axe talent for Orcs is actually +5 weapon skill now, and +1% to crit after the next patch. This is because weapon skill is going to the expertise system.

[Nebu]

Useful stuff

Thanks for taking the time to offer up the insight.  I made a tauren warrior and will give it a shot.  I'm a bit concerned that the playing the warrior will drive me back to playing my rogue, but I figured it would give me a change of pace.  Having leveled my first rogue to 25 as an undead already gives me some familiarity with the hoard side in the early going.

[Chimpy]

Well... since there appears to be a lack of tanks, I've decided to level one on the Hoard side when my alliance rogue gets bored.  I was thinking of making a tauren warrior, but would like to hear what you guys think would be the best race for a hoard warrior.  Any suggestions on race and on spec for solo/duo leveling?

Thanks.

Easy answer:

Choose the class you like to look at, because your going to spend 20+ days looking at his/her ass. Seriously though they all have advantages so choose what you like to look at / play.

Min/Max:

Go Tauren if you want to be primarily a Tank. Orc/Troll if you want to primarily DPS. Undead/Tauren if you want to primarily PvP.


Racial Bonuses:

Tauren have an advantage as tanks because of the additional +5% HP they get as a racial, also warstomp (aoe stun), a great tool for pvp

Orcs get additional Axe skill, which helps at high end raiding as dps in that you don't need to stack as much +hit (really helpful for dual wielding, this dynamic is changing however in the next patch, not sure whats changing, sorry), they also get Blood Frenzy, a nice dps oriented attack power buff, also get resistance to stuns

Weapon  skill hasn't effected to hit since BC came out actually. I don't know why they chose to fuck with it but they still haven't figured out what benefit they want it to have as they are changing it again in 2.23. No idea why they changed it except for the interminable complaints about the advantages of human rogues from other rogues.

+ weapon skill racials are being changed to 1% to crit with the weapon type for all racials in 2.3 because of the expertise skill thing. So it will still help for DPS, but not like the haxx +weapon skill stuff in the Naxx days.

[Xanthippe]

Useful stuff

Thanks for taking the time to offer up the insight.  I made a tauren warrior and will give it a shot.  I'm a bit concerned that the playing the warrior will drive me back to playing my rogue, but I figured it would give me a change of pace.  Having leveled my first rogue to 25 as an undead already gives me some familiarity with the hoard side in the early going.

Level up in the BE lands -- the new areas are designed better for more efficient questing - less running around - and it seems to me the rewards are better too.  I think you can get quests there at level 5.

[Ralence]

Thanks for taking the time to offer up the insight.  I made a tauren warrior and will give it a shot.  I'm a bit concerned that the playing the warrior will drive me back to playing my rogue, but I figured it would give me a change of pace.  Having leveled my first rogue to 25 as an undead already gives me some familiarity with the hoard side in the early going.

  If you're not too intent on staying with this toon, I'd suggest prot paladin as REAL big on the fun factor.  From 34ish on, you can grind on 6-8 mobs +/- 2 levels of my own with no downtime at all.  It's actually almost ridiculous when you see it firsthand.  Prot Paladins do great DPS when they're getting hit by multiples, and even when I tank instances I end up #1 on those stupid DPS meter things.  Not to mention it's incredibly efficient from a group standpoint.  I usually spend the first two pulls trying to explain how assist works, and that it's really okay that I get beat on by 4 mobs at a time, but then people start to catch on and the rest of the instance is cake.
 
  It's very possible this all changes when I get to outlands, but at 48, I am having the most fun in quite a long time, and I'd highly recommend it over the typical fight mob, loot mob, fight mob loot mob routine.  Nothing like hoping the runners bring more adds instead of having the "oh shit" moments.

[Fordel]

No, it doesn't really change at all, it only gets better as you start getting plate with spell damage on it.

The issue with prot pally leveling is while your awesome with a pack of melee mobs on you, you really, really, really, suck at fighting casters or single mobs. Not in the sense that your in any kind of danger of dieing, just in that it is slow, boring, and slow. SoV helps alliance paladins on single mobs, I have no experience with SoB for horde folk.


If you put 10 into holy for the healing pushback talent, you can solo just about every quest in outlands that isn't a 5 person one. You can put those points into ret once you hit 70 for the parry talent, since by 70, once you start getting 'real' tanking gear, you'll almost never have to heal yourself, your heals will be incapable of effecting your health pool and your mana pool will be around 4-6k only, with no mana5.

[Xanthippe]

So how do you spec a pally before 34?

I've finally figured out the secret to having fun in WSG - be melee or a shaman with ghost wolf.  I've enjoyed my little warrior, so now I want to try a druid and a pally in the 29 bgs.  (The 19 bg has far too many twinks to be enjoyable - twinks at 19 are like 4 or 5 levels above nontwinks.   At 29, the difference seems to be about 2 levels.)

[edlavallee]

Been reading this thread with interest. Discussion here has been great.

I have a human warrior I leveled to 70 with arms/prot. Great soloing build with flexibility to tank most regular instances. Didn't end up tanking too much (solo questing ftw), but could if I needed to. I have now, however, decided to switch to protection in order to be a better tank, because they seemed to be in demand, and because I got sick of constantly searching for tanks while leveling my mage.

I think I am an ok tank. Not great, but I am not an idiot either. I do my research and learn fast. I do think I am severly under geared at the moment (the consequence of leveling solo as arms), and would like some of your opinions both on gear to aim for as well as other tips such as helpful add-ons and macros. I would aim for questable +defense and regular instance gear since I need to work on faction and have not completed the Karazhan key quest.

I wish I could link my armory profile, but work blocks it... I am Bjorn on Khadgar.


edit: Oh, one other thing, I heard that there was a change coming on an upcoming patch which would give some tanking love to non-prot specced warriors. I don't know much about it, but WOW Insider posted about it a while back. Anyone know more details about that?

[murdoc]

Useful stuff

Thanks for taking the time to offer up the insight.  I made a tauren warrior and will give it a shot.  I'm a bit concerned that the playing the warrior will drive me back to playing my rogue, but I figured it would give me a change of pace.  Having leveled my first rogue to 25 as an undead already gives me some familiarity with the hoard side in the early going.

Level up in the BE lands -- the new areas are designed better for more efficient questing - less running around - and it seems to me the rewards are better too.  I think you can get quests there at level 5.

I second this, I ran a Tauren Warrior at level 6 over to Silvermoon and did all the quests there. I just bound myself to the Inn in UC and trained there every 2 levels. It was nice to do something a little different in the 10-20 range, plus the blue 2h quest reward at the end is 

[edlavallee]

One other question on the whole "DPS needs to hold back" theme... There are threat reduction talents and trinkets, why aren't these emphasized more? Why is the method to hold back rather than rely on these trinkets and skills to give you the threat buffer to allow your tank to maintain aggro? I must be missing some key mechanic here, so pardon my ignorance.

[Jayce]

One other question on the whole "DPS needs to hold back" theme... There are threat reduction talents and trinkets, why aren't these emphasized more? Why is the method to hold back rather than rely on these trinkets and skills to give you the threat buffer to allow your tank to maintain aggro? I must be missing some key mechanic here, so pardon my ignorance.

For endgame stuff at least, those trinkets are considered pretty useless (note, I'm mainly thinking of mages here, where my experience lies).  The conventional wisdom is that if you use one, you paradoxically no longer have the issue because your dps has been gimped enough.  However in instances that you are overgeared for, maybe they could have some use if everyone hadn't trashed them by that time.

In terms of talents, soul shatter (for warlocks) is considered a very important and useful ability.  The mage talents to reduce threat are mostly for arcane which isn't considered to be useful until pretty high in the endgame (2 pieces of T5).  I'm not sure what rogues have.  I would guess that maybe the people who have to hold back DPS could benefit from vanish/invis/feigning, so I don't know why that wasn't covered.

I might be biased though, because personally speaking I haven't seen threat scaling to be a huge issue, but then I haven't done any 25 mans or heroics yet.