Street Fighter IV

[Margalis]

I can't really disagree, and you guys are phrasing it in a nice way, I haven't seen it approached from that angle before.

Maybe I'll bring it up with Sirlin, it is certainly a valid point, I think you guys have put your fingers on the difference between SF2 and more "practice mode" fighters.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

What you aren't getting is this.

Learning to aim better, learning maps, common strats and counter strats, getting good w/ certain weapons etc etc etc.

Those are intuitive, you automagically do them while you are playing any fps.  It just happens, you are running around fragging people and you will get better at fragging people.

Figuring out fucking stupidly complex move cancel 2-4 frame bullshit in fighting games?  Not the same thing.  Not the same thing at all...

Impossible dust is a side effect of how dust combos work. After you've landed a 5D on a standing opponent, he will be launched in the air and won't be able to recover for 29 frames. In this time you automatically do a homing jump by pressing 8 or 9, following your opponent.
If you hit him in these 29 frames, he won't be able to recover for the next 48 frames. In this time you can jump cancel every move and have access to unlimited air dashes.

Now, if you do an double jump or an air dash or use FD after you activated the homing jump, this will cancel the homing jump. Your opponent will still not be able to air tech, until the 48 frames are over.

Now the basic idea is that if you hit the enemy at the proper time (right before the 29 frame window is over) and use a method to cancel your homing jump and fall down... you can make the enemy fly up and be unable to tech, while you go down and land on the ground. This is useful for characters who have better combos while they are on the ground than while they are in the air (which is a lot of the cast).

Example combo with Potemkin is:
D 9, FD j.S |> 5HS Heat Extend

Yeah I'm totally going to just "learn" to do that.  Hrmmm looks like 48 frames, time to cancel my homing jump...

For real.  They are not the same.

Learning tactics in RTS games, learning twitch "skills" in FPS games.  Learning how to be good in Sports games.  Have nothing to do with learning "advanced" tactics in fighters.  This isn't because Fighters are inherently superior (what fighting game freaks think) this is because they are inherent fail to people who just don't care that much about any form of gaming or really dont want to get off from work/school and fucking work to figure out this absurdly complicated ways to bend the scrub level ruleset and let yourself become l33t.

This is why Powerstone = Better universal fun.

PS works like a FPS/RTS/Sports title.  There isn't some magical alchemy of move cancellation, crazed finger dance and wild button pattern/combinations to memorize.  The more PS you play, the better you will be at PS but because of the way the game is designed there is no Super Sayan XXX+7 bullshit mode where you are a god compared to everyone else.  Which is what all this hoodoo mumbo jumbo "advanced fighter techniques" may as well be to most people.

Hoax: You don't have to learn that if you don't want. Catching an impossible dust is stuff for high level play. Are you planning on playing at that level ever? Cause if you are not then it doesn't pertain to you. It wont ever come up when you play with your friends unless they took the time to learn it. It is there for people who play enough to need to use it to get an edge, and there is nothing wrong about it being there or someone wanting to get that good at a game. Your claim that PS is better universal fun is completely subjective. Cause A lot of people would disagree with you. I personally think that PS is freaking boring. It is a fun waste of time for me and it is just that. That is fine, cause the game is not meant to be taken farther than that, but I can take a fighting game as far as I want to go.

Now the "Figuring out fucking stupidly complex move cancel 2-4 frame bullshit in fighting games?" thing is silly. Guilty gear tells you what moves are cancelable. It tells you. Then it shows you on a time line where to cancel it. You know when you canceled it and when you do good things happen. You don't have to get good at that, but if you want to compete at a high level you should. But you can play casually and have a great time and not ever run into a cancelable situation or move and not even care and it is all the same.

FPS has skill based movement too, Q3 and Q4 had all kinds od silly jumping and movement stuff that was important to get good with as well as special ways to use rockets and other weapons. UT is even a better example of that, with all the different weapon combos and adrenilen specials. Strategic control of a map doens't just happen either, you have to really get to know a map and know what are the best routes to take when and with what weapon. When to get back to a specific part of a map at what point and with what kind of attack power. Sure you learn by playing but there is a lot of strat there. It may be easy to run double jump off something activate some adrenilin special turn around and lay out some shock ball thingies then do a shock combo for you, but it certainly isn't easy for me. I would have to practice it. 

The execution in a fighting game is part of that strat too. The execution makes it possible to botch execution, just like people in FPS botch Execution by mis-aiming, mis-timeing etc. That is part of the fighting game genre.

I am really curious to know how you would solve this. How would you make a fighting game that is deep and plays well at a competitive level and is easy to play? Cause again, GG is a good and bad example in fighting games. The game is god damn great at introductory and high level play, but you do have to press a lot of buttons and there is a lot of advanced techniques. Yet Tekken 5 Dark Resurrection plays great at both introductory and high level play and is much much easier in the execution dept but still remains deep as hell and maintains a huge gap between low and high level play.

[schild]

Tekken doesn't play well at the introductory level. None of them do.

Why do you keep saying that? It's too viscerally boring. I'm sorry you can't see that.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

Schild: Your opinion on whether Tekken is good or not is really not an issue here. You don't even know the game or how it plays so your opinion is poop. 
Glad your here though.

[stray]

I JUST realized that the guy who played Ken in the movie is Miklo from Blood In, Blood Out.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

VATOS LOCOS FOREVER CARDNAL LET'S GO!!!   

Jaja...

Anyway, I freaking love that girl in your av, who is that? 

[stray]

Rosario Dawson

[schild]

Schild: Your opinion on whether Tekken is good or not is really not an issue here. You don't even know the game or how it plays so your opinion is poop. 
Glad your here though.

Actually, the point is, you're coming off as a fanatic. You're the WORST possible judge of what is fun at the low level. Which is funny, because in person, you aren't. But in words, it's a mess.

[Margalis]

The (good) point people are making, Hammer Frenzy, is that in many fighting games playing the game doesn't encourage you or teach you to get better at important skills.

You can't practice map control in an FPS game single-player, nor you can you practice space control in a fighting game single player. But you can sure as hell practice complex combos and such.

The problem with many fighting games is that many of the skills are essentially single-player. Doing a combo is not an interactive skill, the other player has no input on it at all. Whereas parrying a move very much depends on the other player.

"Learn by doing" is not possible in many fighting games. You aren't going to learn a really effective VC by just playing the game normally.

In SF2 there is very little to practice in practice mode. You can work out your best combo which will come into play every 20 games or so, other than that there isn't much to do because all the skill is highly interactive and dependent on the other player.

[Hoax]

Tekken doesn't play well at the introductory level. None of them do.

Why do you keep saying that? It's too viscerally boring. I'm sorry you can't see that.

Except SC, that game plays great when you are playing at scrub levels.  Also Marvel Vs Capcom is great even at low levels because there is so much shit going on.

Tekkan and KI are great examples of games that suck balls when you don't know all the cool shit.  They play clunky and stupid and you feel stupid playing them.  You know there is a way to do really cool shit but you haven't read the fucking Gamefaq's to figure it out.  Yes, you need to read the gamefaqs.  You don't fucking intuit the high level cancellation / movelist stuff.  Thats fucking unpossible dreamer-talk.  I know dickall about GG so if somehow it TELLS you "omg gai time to cancel your dustoff, cancel the infinity cruise jump and prepare to do the facedance waveslapp.... NOW!!!" then wow, that game sounds pretty smart.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

Margalis: I think that the combo aspect of fighting games is still greatly affected by the defending player, they have to allow themselves to be placed in a punishment situation. I can totally agree with long winded combos being lame, especially in Tekken and Alpha 3, and other stuff. But games like GG have burst which let's you bust out of combos. I am into short combos with extremely scaled damage at excessive amounts of hits. This is why I like SF and VF so much. The combos are not too long winded, sans the occasional Yun BS in 3rd Strike and some crazy juggles in VF.

I think that I have learned the most about fighting games while playing. I practice long combos and certain set ups in practice mode, but I learn a huge chunk of fighting games while playing. 

Although I can see that this kind of game play is obviously not fun for some, I am sure that you guys see that there are many people who do enjoy it. So having easy low level play counter balanced by deep high level play can work out for everyone. If you want to play with better players there are many sources to help you do that, if not then you can always play at whatever level you feel comfortable.

I just don't see why games have to drop to the level of the lowest common denominator as opposed to just allowing everyone to enjoy the game at their own level. I for one don't mind casual play, cause that is where all good players start, but I also think that high level play is really fun if you play with people at your skill level.

I could do with less huge combos, or just have huge combos with various ways to avoid stuff, or various defensive options for the moment leading to the beat down. I am actually not big on juggles to be honest. I like short sweet combos.

Also the VC thing is BS. All VC's were learned "normally" by good players. They practiced and made them up then shared them.

I made up almost all my VC's in CVS2 and Alpha 3. Were they good as the high level ones made up by Chen and Valle and Bucktooth? No, but they worked and won me many fights. I only had to learn expert VC's when I played at expert level.

The point of VC is to make your own combo, obviously some people are better at it than others and at a high level, if you want to win, you use the VC's that work best, do the most damage, are the most accessible and and are easy and variable in set up. 

Now you only have to do that at tourny/ competitive level, you can use any VC in casual and low and it is all fine and dandy.

[Velorath]

Better Street Fighter II Turbo HD pic from IGN:

[HAMMER FRENZY]

That background is god-awful. 

[Nonentity]

That dude in the yellow hat is awesome, he's like a gay pimp Weird Al Yankovic.

Also, I wanted to come in this thread and say

I WANNA TAKE YOU FOR A RIIIIIIDE

DUNANANANA

I WANNA TAKE YOU FOR A RIIII-IIIIIIDE

[Margalis]

Although I can see that this kind of game play is obviously not fun for some, I am sure that you guys see that there are many people who do enjoy it. So having easy low level play counter balanced by deep high level play can work out for everyone. If you want to play with better players there are many sources to help you do that, if not then you can always play at whatever level you feel comfortable.

You still aren't getting it, that is not the right dichotomy. The problem is not that high level play is deep, the problem people are complaining about is that high-level play is esoteric and has increasingly little to do with the core gameplay. It's about figuringing out random systems that have nothing to do with other players.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

You still aren't getting it, that is not the right dichotomy. The problem is not that high level play is deep, the problem people are complaining about is that high-level play is esoteric and has increasingly little to do with the core gameplay. It's about figuringing out random systems that have nothing to do with other players.

I don't agree with this at all. You kinda are assuming that all fighting games are like that, and this is simply not true. Guilty Gear has been mentioned, but guilty gear is known for it's fast, deep and balanced game play. Further more, saying that a lot of the high level stuff has nothing to do with the core game play is really a vague statement. What is the core game play in GG? I understand it as learning the game and using the tools available to you to win. It seems that you are saying that False Roman Cancels and Combination loops and character specific strats have nothing to do with the "core game play" and I think they have everything do with how the game is supposed to be played. GG has had many iterations in the XX series and there are many things that remain constant, RC/FRC, big combos, rush down/ lock down patterns and character specific strats. All the loops, lock downs etc that broke or other wise hindered game play were toned down or removed in further installments.  So the game at a high level plays exactly as it is meant to. The low level game is exactly what it is. Low level examples of what GG is played as. The occasional thing gets by, IE Jumpinstalled/instant air dash moves, impossible dust etc, but that is all modified execution of normal system techniques. It does not break game play, but I  know that stuff like Jumpinstall/instant air dash stuff is supposed to be there. In fact characters like I-No need to compete at high levels.

Not many other games are like that, or at least to that extent, but the argument is pointless cause yes, all this stuff matters. The core game play is not some half assed portion of the fighting system that whatever group assumes is the gist of how they SHOULD be playing. The core system of any fighting game is all techniques available at any given time.

Saying that the high level of fighting games in general breaks down to random systems that have nothing to do with the other player is down right ignorant. Everything happening has everything to do with both players. No one is subject to any actions unless the have made themselves open for action to taken on them.

People bitching about long combos that they get caught in, myself included, need to STOP GETTING CAUGHT. It is simple risk and reward. Is it worth it for you to take action X if action Y is equally appropriate and will leave you less vulnerable? Getting caught, taking the wrong action and BOTCHING EXECUTION are the windows for counter attacks which many times consist of high damage moves, setups and combos at high level play.

Until someone comes up with a system that is both equally deep but accessible to any skill level, this is where we are at.

I have said this before and I really believe it, most fighting games at high level are less "random systems having nothing to do with the other player" and more of someone just knowing their character and match-ups better than you. All that can be fixed with play time. Just playing casually and learning the match-ups and getting good with your character.   

Ultimately fighting games are games of skill, albeit with accessible introductory play. Like and skill based activity, they may require some practice and some research. This is all voluntary because you don't need to learn all the higher level stuff. If it doesn't matter, and you still are having fun, then so be it. But any game of skill will have some high level play that is somewhat different from the low level play, most of the time in fighting games, this is just better, more efficient ways of doing what the game already does. That can come in the form of strats, or combos, or set ups or even advanced execution ( in the case of SB, GG, etc.) ALL these things have everything to do with the game. You choose how much of it you learn, and when you should learn it.

[Margalis]

HAMMER FRENZY is being purposely obtuse I think. In his world pressing ABCABCBBACCBAA! at the 73-second mark to do extra damage would make perfect sense and only add to the gameplay.

This is why I hope to God Capcom does not listen to fans when they make SF4. Fighting games have been dying a slow death for a decade in part because people like HAMMER FRENZY have no idea what people consider fun and dismiss any and all complaints with meaningless retorts like "don't get hit" as if there was a single person on earth that can consistently avoid getting hit by Jenei-Gin.

Learning to aim better, learning maps, common strats and counter strats, getting good w/ certain weapons etc etc etc.

Those are intuitive, you automagically do them while you are playing any fps.  It just happens, you are running around fragging people and you will get better at fragging people.

Figuring out fucking stupidly complex move cancel 2-4 frame bullshit in fighting games?  Not the same thing.  Not the same thing at all...

It can't be said any simpler. A3 crouch cancels? You don't pick that up by playing, you just don't. As I keep pointing out SF2 had very little of that sort of thing, which is part of why it was so popular.

People like HAMMER FRENZY are hoping that in SF4 you have to do a complete Gloomy Puppet Show to punch someone, that's their dream game I guess.

[BigBlack]

Props to other people for saying what I was thinking, but in a far more articulate fashion.

Also, props to Marvel vs Capcom for including easy-mode.  Everything in Easy Mode made intuitive sense, and I had a great time playing it on that setting.  Sucks they took it out for part 2.

That is fine, cause the game is not meant to be taken farther than that, but I can take a fighting game as far as I want to go.

I've spent five minutes trying to think of a witty way to tie this in, but fuck it, my brain is fried tonight. This song goes perfectly with the above.  Everybody pretend I tied in the link with a witty comment, k?  K.

[Margalis]

The idea that this is some argument of high level vs. low level play is a red herring, it's an argument of well vs. poorly designed games.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

HAMMER FRENZY is being purposely obtuse I think. In his world pressing ABCABCBBACCBAA! at the 73-second mark to do extra damage would make perfect sense and only add to the gameplay.

This is borderline retarded. I have stated multiple times that things don't need to be overly complicated. I agree that GG is tough at high level play and I for oue would actually like relatively more laxed FRC windows. I would like to see how the game played if the windows were 5 and 6 frame windows, (like a parry in CVS2) as opposed to 2 and 3. That would make the moves way easier to do and still have some cool stuff to do with combos.

This is why I hope to God Capcom does not listen to fans when they make SF4. Fighting games have been dying a slow death for a decade in part because people like HAMMER FRENZY have no idea what people consider fun and dismiss any and all complaints with meaningless retorts like "don't get hit" as if there was a single person on earth that can consistently avoid getting hit by Jenei-Gin.

First of all, Yun without Jenei-Gin is useless so yes, he needs that super art and ways to land it to do damage and compete. BUT the damage and set-ups can be overwhelming and powerful, hence the execution factor. You can link Jenei-Gin from all kinds of crap, and it can be hard to defend against it at times, but for god sakes, if you know you can't handle someones set-ups with Jenei-Jin TURTLE THE FUCK UP, wait for a window and counter. There are ways around it, I personally think that yes, Yun should have played differently, but that is cause I am not into long button combo sequences, but some people are. He fits some peoples preferred play style and saying that it should not be available to them is just as pompous and retarded as saying that there shouldn't be characters or games that don't have that kind of play style or are simple and straight forward, easy to learn characters. If you don't like Jenei-Jin don't play Yun, if you have trouble getting out of Jenei-Gin Set ups, then just play more. You will know when Jenei-Gin is coming, it shows up in all the same situations, reduce the opportunities and adapt to the flow of the fight.

Learning to aim better, learning maps, common strats and counter strats, getting good w/ certain weapons etc etc etc.

Those are intuitive, you automagically do them while you are playing any fps.  It just happens, you are running around fragging people and you will get better at fragging people.

Figuring out fucking stupidly complex move cancel 2-4 frame bullshit in fighting games?  Not the same thing.  Not the same thing at all...

It can't be said any simpler. A3 crouch cancels? You don't pick that up by playing, you just don't. As I keep pointing out SF2 had very little of that sort of thing, which is part of why it was so popular.

Crouch cancels in A3 are lame. (They are not supposed to be there, and were taken out of Alpha 3 Upper and the community wrongfully so, didn't play it. I think that is Bullshit.) I personally don't like Alpha 3 and I have mentioned this before, mostly because it is all V-ism all day long with bullshit customs. (IE cc customs) I am totally okay with customs in Alpha 2 and CVS2 (a little less with CVS2 cause roll canceling makes a even more powerful) and I like them more cause at least in CVS2 you can play with other grooves and not be completely gimped. VCS2 though, as much as I like the concept and game play, suffers from boring, long fights, and breaks down to poke fests, which is a real turn off for me, so I left that game quite a while ago.

People like HAMMER FRENZY are hoping that in SF4 you have to do a complete Gloomy Puppet Show to punch someone, that's their dream game I guess.

How stupid are you? You make these retarded statements that make you sound totally misinformed. I want SF to remain accessible, I want it to be deep and fun to play, and if it takes the system having a revamp and changing a bunch of shit so everyone can play then so be it. All I want is fun and strategic fighting that is accessible for newcomers and hard to master. I want SF4 to be big, I want people to play it like fucking crazy and have get togethers and see young kids get into SF like we were when we were kids. Me having to re-learn SF or having to let go of some of the crap I am used too is a small price to pay for a fresh start on SF.

I can agree that some things ARE BS in fighting games, but I can see how a lot of it does need to be there at least to some extent. Am I into long silly BS strings. Fuck No. Will I do it if it means getting to play a game that, despite some failings, is a fun, interesting game to play? Hell Yes. There are parts of many games I wish they did better, and long complicated strings and overly complicated execution for high level techniques in fighting games is something that can be changed in my opinion, as long as the games stay fun, accessible, balanced and deep.

Really though, on your "This kind of crap wasn't in original SF" stuff, you are right to some degree, but there were ways people used things in SFWW, Champ and Hyper that were silly. Block infinites with Bison in Champ, silly traps with shotos/Sagat. All that crap to me is silly. This is why I liked 3rd Strike so much, a lot of those traps were not nearly as useful because of the parry, then the old school players called shinanigans, saying that it broke game play, but here we are years later still playing it and having fun. That doesn't change that old school SF still had some silliness in it. Most people, including myself, still have a hard time comboing supers in ST. I personally believe it should be easier, cause the timing on it is just hard for me, but I have heard other theories on why it must remain the way it is. 

On the SF III thing  I can see that to some degree, the old school players were right, cause sometimes 3rd strike can break down into some pretty random mix-ups. I can't tell you how many time I accidentally parried into super and won. I didn't mean to do that at all and still won straight out. Or how many times I literally just throw random over heads and linkable low attacks looking to  further mix up or hit confirm into super and I am not really thinking of the outcome outside of that flurry of highs and lows and occasional throw attempts. Sometimes it just feels less like deliberate, well thought out set-ups and more like "overwhelming mix-up blitz #14" or some BS.   SO I can see when you say, don't take the fans suggestions, which is what SF3 and especially 3rd strike was, but I can also see that some more input from the hardcore community could have helped out quite a bit. 

[Margalis]

You can link Jenei-Gin from all kinds of crap, and it can be hard to defend against it at times, but for god sakes, if you know you can't handle someones set-ups with Jenei-Jin TURTLE THE FUCK UP, wait for a window and counter.

Name one person on earth that can consistently counter Jenei-Gin. One.

Crouch cancels in A3 are lame. (They are not supposed to be there, and were taken out of Alpha 3 Upper and the community wrongfully so, didn't play it. I think that is Bullshit.) I personally don't like Alpha 3 and I have mentioned this before, mostly because it is all V-ism all day long with bullshit customs. (IE cc customs)

But...but...long VCs and crouch-cancels are high level play HAMMER FRENZY! If you don't like long VCs don't get hit with them!

Really though, on your "This kind of crap wasn't in original SF" stuff, you are right to some degree, but there were ways people used things in SFWW, Champ and Hyper that were silly. Block infinites with Bison in Champ, silly traps with shotos/Sagat.

You keep changing the discussion. I am not talking about generic "crap" or "silly" stuff, I'm being specific. The complaint being made is very specific:

Playing the game does not in itself naturally lead people to develop the skills to play the game at a higher level.

THAT is the complaint. All the important SF2 skills come naturally from playing the game - proper spacing, footsies, good timing, predicting what your opponent will do, etc. There is very little in SF2 that you do not pick up from just playing the game. Maybe some advanced combos like low shorts into super or Guile's standing fierce into flash kick, maybe timing jump-ins to be reversal proof - that's about it. Playing the game makes you better at all the important aspects of the game.

That's good design. Learn by doing, not learn by practice mode.

If you look at people playing SF2 well, it still looks like SF2, just better. If you look at people playing Smash Brothers well it looks like a different game. That's the difference. All the things that are important in high-level smash play are things you don't pick up just by playing Smash.

[Ookii]

What is this whole argument really about?  How you're afraid they're going to introduce all this wack shit into SF4 which will cause casual players to get owned everytime by more hardcore players?  Because the hardcore players know that when they fall from a jump they should crouch because they will instantly recover?

SF2 was simple, but those aforementioned hardcore players are always going to kick your ass at it because they know how the whole goddamn game works.  They know every trick, how many frames a punch is, and have encountered every possible scenario so many times they know exactly what to do.  These, let's call them fuckers, fuckers eat up learning everything they can about their little world, that is just what they do.  So really you can't complain that the hardcore players have an unfair advantage by studying how the systems work, because those fuckers are just better at fighting than you or I naturally.  It's in their blood.

So what do fighting game companies do?  They introduce more systems to satisfy their hardcore fanbase, I mean you can play almost any fighting game (except for Tekken and DOA) without know much going into it, and depending on your base skill you should be able to get the hang of it.  Johnny 'I play Halo 3' Smith who is age 13 isn't going to get his mom to buy Guilty Gear, the people who buy the newest fighting games are the same fuckers who just love fighting games.  Granted with SF4 the non hardcore players will be buying it as well, but every player will get out of it exactly what they put into it.  If you're going to play a couple matches a week with your friends I don't think you're going to care about the wake up time after getting hit by a Shuryuken, but the depth that exists beyond the surface is what keeps people playing the game for some time to come.

I hope they add things that can only be accomplished in one frame, I'm never going to attempt them, but you know that upper level play is going to be amazing.  You know when once guy pulls it off in tournament play and then dodges a fireball by timing his roll so he dodges it in the 2 frames possible, you're going to be impressed.

[schild]

I hope they make it so complicated that Hammer ends up getting so angry and frustrated that he agrees with us.

Just so he stops writing so many paragraphs that all say the same thing. 

[Hoax]

Well at least we disabused him of his bullshit "I just want you guys to have fun, that's what matters" pat-you-on-the-fucking-head attitude and now he's calling people who don't agree with him retarded.  This is the level of internet discourse I'm much more comfortable with.

@Ookii:  The argument is that fighting games do a horrible job with their "high end" systems.  Sure Thresh or whomever back in the day could have waxed any of us in 30 seconds of Quake2 but you could grok why he won.  When somebody beats Joe Normal's ass in GG using things like Fuzzy Guard Jump install/cancels he has no fucking idea what happened.  He knows he got his shit pushed in but he's not sure why.

[Margalis]

Yeah and I thought I was verbose and repetitive sometimes.

I was a hardcore SF2 player and I only learned by doing. No practice mode, all my experimentation was done in-game. I naturally got good along with a bunch of other people who got good alongside me. That's what people are asking for.

The complication of games does not intimidate or frustrate me, I was one of the first people to put out good CCs for CVS2. My problem is that the fun part for me of fighting games is fighting other people, not competing against myself to get down some technique or fucking around in practice mode. Anything you can practice in practice mode is inherently a non-interactive skill.

The better you can get by messing around in practice mode the worse it is for the game.

Edit: And Hoax is exactly right, there is a huge difference between losing because someone is clearly better and losing because someone appears to be playing a different game. It would be like in the NFL if the running back teleported into the end-zone.

[Ookii]

Oh sorry I was too lazy to read, well, basically anything and thought I grasped the meaning of this argument.

Well great guys, let's play fighting games!  You guys, like me, just like to play to get good, and that is great.  We can have bunches of fun for a long time playing each other, we don't even have to worry about all that high end stuff.  Hammer can play on his super technical level with his friends, and they'll have bunches of fun too.

The only thing I am getting out if this argument is the fact people are complaining they can't be top tier at fighting games unless they learn all the crap.  It seems everyone wants the games dumbed down to their level so they can become instantly better; you don't just want to be one of the best around your friends, you want to be one of the best in general.

Basically this argument doesn't make sense to me, high level people are always playing on a different level than lower level people.  They're always thinking about things that normal people wouldn't even consider, and it doesn't matter what they hell they're doing. 

And of course I could of missed the point in the first place, but the fact that this thread has 6 pages is ridiculous!

[Velorath]

And of course I could of missed the point in the first place

Pretty much.  The issue is that the high-end game isn't the logical extension of the low end game.  You don't learn how to play at a high level by playing the game a lot, you learn it by going online and reading up on what essentially are exploits that all the other high end players are using.

[BigBlack]

At this point, for hammer to not get it, he has to be REALLY FUCKING TRYING to not get it.

I mean, think about how batshit obscure this stuff is getting -- a "False Roman Cancel"?  WHAT THE FUCK DOES THAT EVEN MEAN?  How is any of this supposed to make any sense to anyone who isn't absolutely into being the master of their tiny, obscure domain?

Googling, it seems that you spend a portion of your power bar (less if you time it perfectly during certain moves) in order to lessen post-attack lag and thus link certain combos together that'd be otherwise impossible.

The basic dynamic here is "expend some power bar in order to open up more strategic options".  There are, oh, about a million more intuitive ways to create this sort of dynamic than how Guilty Gear's combat system does it.

This is not to say I'm advocating for incremental reforms.  Frankly, I think they'd be better off just taking intuitive systems - Street Fighter 2, PowerStone, Smash Brothers - and using those as the basis for new fighting game designs.

The only thing I am getting out if this argument is the fact people are complaining they can't be top tier at fighting games unless they learn all the crap.  It seems everyone wants the games dumbed down to their level so they can become instantly better; you don't just want to be one of the best around your friends, you want to be one of the best in general.

Er, no.  The point isn't to make us *better*, the point(s) are:

-Make it so people of greater skill disparities can play each other and still enjoy the match, even if the outcome isn't in doubt.

-Make it so progression to higher levels of skill happens intuitively, rather than having to treat the game like a job (complete with 'practice sessions') to progress.  One essential of this is that anything you see someone do should allow you to have a decent sense of how they did it.

-Make it so playing at a higher level doesn't require such ridiculous technical precision such that even if you *can* play at a high level, playing at that high level stops being any fun.


The original Street Fighter 2 fulfills all of the above.

[Margalis]

It's pretty amazing how people can say the exact same thing over and over again in very clear english and other people literally cannot understand it at any level.

[Ookii]

I'm quoting now so I actually get the point, my head is not straight today.

Pretty much.  The issue is that the high-end game isn't the logical extension of the low end game.  You don't learn how to play at a high level by playing the game a lot, you learn it by going online and reading up on what essentially are exploits that all the other high end players are using.

High End players figured out this shit on their own, because they love fighting games.  They will always be the best no matter how non-technical or technical a fighting game is because it's what they do, they higher end stuff is put in because that is what games dictate nowadays.  Sure someone out there could create a game without he mumbo jumbo we all could naturally get good at, but those players would still be better than us anyway.  It really doesn't matter if the technical stuff is in or not, they win.

-Make it so people of greater skill disparities can play each other and still enjoy the match, even if the outcome isn't in doubt.

Phil doesn't have fun when I kick his ass in SF2 nor does any lower level player, it's frustrating.  I have played better people and also been frustrated, what game can still be enjoyed if you lose everytime? (I took off 25% of his life that time, yeah!)

-Make it so progression to higher levels of skill happens intuitively, rather than having to treat the game like a job (complete with 'practice sessions') to progress.  One essential of this is that anything you see someone do should allow you to have a decent sense of how they did it.

Natural progression would lead to insane button combination, you wouldn't have to worry about dusting or crouch cancelling, you just would have to press the right buttons for 5 seconds to pull off some sweet move.  You're also not talking about higher skill levels, you're talking about the highest skill level, to be top tier in any game you have to know the ins and outs of it.

With this 'seeing stuff and learning from it' mantra, I've played tons of games (fighting and not) where someone pulls off some wack shit I want to learn.  I ask and I read which allows me to figure it out, I SEE what they did, and then learn how to do it.  It's not so hard, this shit isn't rocket science.

-Make it so playing at a higher level doesn't require such ridiculous technical precision such that even if you *can* play at a high level, playing at that high level stops being any fun.

Once again, you can play at a high level without knowing that junk, just not the highest level.  The highest level isn't for you if you don't want to learn all the ins and outs, as you mentioned yourself, it stops being fun.  There will always be a highest level even if you remove most of the stupid crap, SF2 had a 'highest level', and we couldn't touch players at that level if we tried.

I just don't understand why there is a push to remove all the stuff Fighting Game junkies eat up because you don't feel like learning it, there are literally thousands of people across the US alone who LOVE this stuff and are as passionate as Hammer about it.  These are coincidently the same people who buy most of the Fighting Games so it makes sense that the companies cater to them.  Of course, once again, this is about SF4 which is not as ingrained as some of these other fighters, so there might not be a need to put anything overly complicated in it.  Then again if they don't put all the crap in it nobody will play it a year from now, because the guys who keep these games going are fighting game players.

SF2 came out 16 YEARS ago, it was just the beginning, every video game since then has gotten more complicated, we expect fighters to stay the same decades later?

The original Street Fighter 2 fulfills all of the above.

It really doesn't, HAMMER would own you every single round if he wanted.  He's playing on a different level, I've played him many times in SF2, and like you I got good by playing the game on it's own.  In fact I got really good, I couldn't find anyone who could beat me before I played Hammer, but looks like things have changed.

[Margalis]

High End players figured out this shit on their own, because they love fighting games. 

Actually, they didn't. A lot of advanced techniques are literally discovered by exactly one person and then disseminated.

Sure someone out there could create a game without he mumbo jumbo we all could naturally get good at, but those players would still be better than us anyway.  It really doesn't matter if the technical stuff is in or not, they win.

Holy shit you STILL AREN'T GETTING IT.

NOBODY IS SAYING "WAAH, I WANT TO WIN!" The complaint is NOT that better players are better. Jesus.

Natural progression would lead to insane button combination, you wouldn't have to worry about dusting or crouch cancelling, you just would have to press the right buttons for 5 seconds to pull off some sweet move. 

What the hell are you talking about? That's what you consider "natural progression"? The fuck?

Once again, you can play at a high level without knowing that junk, just not the highest level.  The highest level isn't for you if you don't want to learn all the ins and outs, as you mentioned yourself, it stops being fun.  There will always be a highest level even if you remove most of the stupid crap, SF2 had a 'highest level', and we couldn't touch players at that level if we tried.

Do you actually know *anything* about the highest levels of SF2 play? Here's a hint: it doesn't involve pressing the right buttons for 5 seconds to pull off a sweet move.

And once again, the point is NOT that worse players want to beat better players. That is an argument you are inventing.

I just don't understand why there is a push to remove all the stuff Fighting Game junkies eat up because you don't feel like learning it, there are literally thousands of people across the US alone who LOVE this stuff and are as passionate as Hammer about it.

"Thousands of people" is shit for a video-game. "Thousands of people" is utter failure. "Fighting game junkies" is a self-selective group because people who would be junkies stopped because the games mostly suck.

I'm sure there are eye-stab junkies, that doesn't mean "Eye Stabber 2" is a great game.

These are coincidently the same people who buy most of the Fighting Games so it makes sense that the companies cater to them. 

Wrong. Catering to a few thousand people is utter fail. 2D fighting games are in the gutter in part because companies have been catering to an increasingly niche market.

It really doesn't, HAMMER would own you every single round if he wanted.  He's playing on a different level, I've played him many times in SF2, and like you I got good by playing the game on it's own.  In fact I got really good, I couldn't find anyone who could beat me before I played Hammer, but looks like things have changed.

First of all, HAMMER sounds like a SF2 scrub to me (no offense), I doubt he would own me every single round. Second, THAT IS NOT WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT.

For the thousandth time, nobody is complaining that better players can beat worse players. Jesus.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

Ooki: I agree with a lot of the things that you are saying, I totally agree that there should be some high level stuff that requires some technical precision, but I also think that what is considered high level play in most fighting games is very difficult for a majority of people who play, and unfortunately, more casual players are the ones who are sinking the most amount of money into these franchises. I think that if a fighting game is to succeed, it needs to cater to these crowds in some way, while still not alienating the more serious group. I think they can do that by toning down the required level of skill needed for high level stuff and make it more noticeable. I think GG got this right to a degree, people playing see that something happened when someone Roman Cancels or False Roman Cancels. ( The screen flashes and the character glows red or blue and the announcer screams "romantic!") SO the other player knows that, "hey, that doesn't happen when I do stuff, what the hell is romantic? Oh there is, in the instruction book..." But the required execution for False Roman Cancels seems to be way to hard for many players, and this does cause a rift in the player base. Although I think that this rift is normal for any game of skill, I can see how people who don't play at that level could get frustrated by stuff that seems unecessarily difficult being so important to high level play. That being said, I still believe that most fighting games fall in the skill based game category, and that there will be stuff you learn as you go, and that the game should get deeper and more complex as you get better.

Margelis:

I think that you have some silly idea that SF mad it clear that there was combos, or cross ups or re-dizzies or wake up meaty attacks linking into other attacks. None of this is "Stuff you learn as you play" but it was learned as people played, then it made its way to us. Combos were a fluke to begin with in SF, that was the "high level BS" as as cross ups, everyone was wondering at the time what moves were cross up moves and which way to block them, it was more high level BS. You think that people just ran into the idea that, "hey, if I use a meaty (slow, strong) attack while he is waking up, I will catch him at the end of my moves hit frames, then he will be going through his whole hit animation while I can recover and launch another attack which will connect if I use a move with few start up frames!" C'mon.... You know SF went through its own discovery phase and you are trying play it off like people ran into that shit everyday. re-dizzy combos, tick throw set ups, ST juggle combos, back turned combos, across the screen SPD's, all this stuff was crap that only high level players knew and understood. A majority of the time, if a novice player got beat by that, they were wondering what the fuck just happened, why did they get hit on that jump kick? Why is that move comboing if it is not a linkable move? Why is it that if I block against bison he can tick me to death? SF had its share of expert play nonsence so quit bullshitting. 

On the Alpha 3 thing. I know how the game plays, and I personally don't like that game. It just is not my cup of tea, it moved too far away from SF, and the game just felt funky. It was mostly the counter hits and lack of balance that made me stop playing it. That and I am not personally into VC int hat style. I like the VC in Alpha 2. I really like playing Alpha 2 and sort of think that 3 was a set back mostly cause of the pace it was played and lack of balance. I think that I may have gotten into Alpha 3 Upper if it made it more possible to play the other Ism's or to not have VC combos be infinites. I am all for a combo doing a lot of damage if it is hard to do and hard to set up and what not, but I should not die at the beginning of the round (everyone starts with full super) simply cause I made a mistake. It is a lack of balance, the risk/reward really bad for people who play other Ism's and I personally like A and X. But seriously though, I hate the counter hits in Alpha 3, they just happen way too damn much and make the game feel way too different for me.

By the way I counter most Jenei-Gins than are thrown my way. I think this is cause I play a shit load of 3rd Strike and I can see the set ups coming from a mile away. Honestly though, that is Yun's bread and butter, he needs to be landing that shit, and saying no one can avoid it is like saying no one can avoid any other super, which is just plain bull shit. He may have a few more ways to land it, but every other character has a butt load of ways to land their super arts as well. I can agree that the meter fills too fast and drains too slow and the combos don't scale as well as they should, but that is how the character plays. I know why the move does so much damage though, and it is because everyone else's supers are automatic. You throw a super fire ball, you are done, Hammer Frenzy, done, XNDL, done. But Jenei-Gin activates then YOU have to do all the work. You have to make the opportunity, You have to know the moves that will keep the combo going, you have to time all your hits right, NONE of the damage is garanteed after the activation, or the first hit or any other hit. You have to make it all happen through perfect execution. SO I can see why he has more options into it, and why it can tack on the damage, but I think that the fast recharge time and overly powerful expert combos with the super kinda break it.

Big Black, all that stuff is in the GG instruction manual. GG is good and balanced and fun at all levels. It is a hard game to play, if it is too hard for you, and you don't like it, don't play it. If you know of a million other ways to make Guilty Gear better without FRC and RC and all the stuff that is in it, list some, cause I personally think GG is fucking awesome and is very well designed for what it is, a skill based fighting game with an emphasis on speed and execution.

Schild: If a fighting game I like it hard to play, I still play it and play with people who play at my level and get better with experience and practice.
VF and GG are very good examples of this.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

Margelis: Wow, I am surprised you would call me a scrub. Not cause I think I am good or some shit, just cause I have not mentioned what I think of how you actually play SF at all, cause I can't tell how good you are by how you talk about it. I know people who talk a big game, but play like shit and people who don't seem to know much about the game technically but play incredibly well. But I never really thought about even playing you ha. Kinda makes you sound retarded.   

By the way, you post at SRK? And who do you play with that I might know from there? I played with many people from Cali, Texas, Vegas and junk and was wondering who you played with.

[Margalis]

I think that you have some silly idea that SF mad it clear that there was combos, or cross ups or re-dizzies or wake up meaty attacks linking into other attacks. None of this is "Stuff you learn as you play" but it was learned as people played, then it made its way to us.

What? No, those WERE "stuff you learn as you play." That is exactly how people learned those things, trial and error and observation based on normal gameplay. I was there. There was no home version and no practice mode. People saw things happening, tried to understand them and tried to replicate them.

It's not a matter of making them clear in the instruction booklet or the announcer yelling out "romantic!" (WTF) It's a logical process. Hey, if I hit someone with a low short I can hit them with another low short and they can't block...hmmm...I wonder if I can do a low jab into low roundhouse with Zangief based on that same principle - oh look, I can!

You know SF went through its own discovery phase and you are trying play it off like people ran into that shit everyday. re-dizzy combos, tick throw set ups, ST juggle combos, back turned combos, across the screen SPD's, all this stuff was crap that only high level players knew and understood.

Re-dizzy combos naturally follow from the gameplay, as do tick throws, and people were unwittingly doing tick throws on day 1, they just weren't sure exactly how. Same with crossups, same with combos. I was getting hit with Chun-Li's lightning legs the for combos on day 1.

Back turned combos and glitch SPDs...yeah those are a bit hard to learn by playing and also totally irrelevant to SF2 gameplay.

Edit: I called you a SF2 scrub because your SF2 complaints are classic scrub complaints - block stun lockdown, fireball traps. Most of what you say about SF2 doesn't make sense, especially telling me how the SF2 scene evolved when I was there in person at the time. For example the idea that some tactic "then it made its way to us." Wrong. I independently discovered those tactics, as did plenty of other people.

Sure there were things like the CPS1 chain or Guile handcuffs that nobody I knew independently discovered, but we were doing combos and crossups and tick throws because we figured all those things out by playing in the arcade, not because we read them in an instruction booklet or on the internet.

It seems like you fundamentally don't understand why SF2 was popular or what the SF2 scene was like at the time at all. Unlike today it was very provincial.

Edit2: I'll gladly dust off MAME and Kaillera for some SSF2T (or HF). Or any Capcom game. I haven't tried GGPO although A2 is my favorite Alpha game by far. Grudge match!

[Big Gulp]

This is why I hope to God Capcom does not listen to fans when they make SF4. Fighting games have been dying a slow death for a decade in part because people like HAMMER FRENZY have no idea what people consider fun and dismiss any and all complaints with meaningless retorts like "don't get hit" as if there was a single person on earth that can consistently avoid getting hit by Jenei-Gin.

That's why I think this game will be a failure.  Firstly, if they hope to sell the game in anything like a decent quantity they'll have to make it a 3D fighting game; 2D won't cut it nowadays.  How in the hell do you do projectiles in a 3D fighting game without making the counter for it something as braindead as stepping aside?

You guys are looking for something that'll recreate the magic of SF2, and that's not going to happen.  It'd be like trying to bring back the "ooh, ah!" of Space Invaders or Pac-Man.  Not going to happen.

And people who are insanely devoted to this series are barely one step above the supahl33t MMO raiding catasses in my book.