Street Fighter IV

[stray]

I suck at life and video games.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

Schild: Case in point. No one knows or cares about it. Mentioning random Taito pcb's is lame, quit trying to be so hardcore. 

Hoax: The whole easier if funner and funner is better thing is something we will have to disagree on. I don't really like wasting time on games primarily of chance or random mash-foolery. If you like playing games like Powerstone... Or the lack of Powerstone-esque games, that is cool, cause as long as you are having fun, then that is all that matters. But for all the people who DO like a little, or a lot of strategy in their fighting games, I am glad they have options.

By the way SC# is broken beyond belief and it is not just the thorw bugs and crap. I am surprised that SC comes up as a casual fighter so much. It has a very casual crowd but it has a very large, very competitive scene full of all those "L337 Strats" you guys dislike so much...

I am not saying i like these top level techniques that players have to learn and practice. I don't think wave dashing in SB should be as useful as it is. I think L-canceling is fucking dumb, the move should just have short recovery. But I am one for depth in layers. I want a lot of options, not a bunch of crazy execution. If there is a way to squeeze all the options I want to have out of a small amount of buttons without over complicating things, I am all for it, but I wouldn't want to play a game that sacrifices depth for ease of execution.

[Velorath]

By the way SC# is broken beyond belief and it is not just the thorw bugs and crap. I am surprised that SC comes up as a casual fighter so much. It has a very casual crowd but it has a very large, very competitive scene full of all those "L337 Strats" you guys dislike so much...

I just think some of us are going by different definitions of casual.  I don't expect any fighting game to make it possible for me to beat someone who devotes a lot of time to getting better, any more than I expect to be able to beat hardcore FPS players, people who study chess, etc... at their chosen games, but then I usually avoid playing people in those crowds.  To me a casual game is simply one that has an intuitive control scheme that people can get into right away and have fun with.  Two people who don't play a lot of fighting games can pick up SC and not ever realize which parts of it are broken.  It only ever becomes an issue if you're playing against someone who tries to use those bugs, glitches, or balance issues to their advantage, and that's the kind of person I'd avoid playing a fighting game against anyway.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

Velorath: you can do that with any fighting game though. I really can't think of a fighting game that you can't pick up and mash some moves out on.

[Velorath]

Velorath: you can do that with any fighting game though. I really can't think of a fighting game that you can't pick up and mash some moves out on.

Some are much better at it than others.  2D games, especially the SF games, you can have about 90% of the special moves figured out in your first day of playing.  Virtua Fighter on the other hand has a steeper learning curve.  A friend of mine in High School had a relative that worked for Sega.  He actually got a lot of stuff for free before it released in U.S., including a Saturn and a copy of Virtua Fighter.  We used to hang out at his place and play it a lot, and it was a couple weeks before either of us felt like we even remotely knew what we were doing.  If I were playing it in an arcade I would have given up after the first dollar.

[Hoax]

Hoax: The whole easier if funner and funner is better thing is something I will have to continue to plug my ears and scream lalala about.

Fixt that for you.

The fact is I genuinely support your desire to have higher level of competition games.  I'm just saying THEY ARE NOT AS UNIVERSALLY FUN.

If you would stop being such a pandering fucking cockmunch by posting stupid shit like everyone who isn't as hardcore!!one!! as you is a 4yr old who just can't handle video games and patting them on the head with comments like this I would have left this lame ass thread awhile back.

that is cool, cause as long as you are having fun, then that is all that matters.

Seriously, stop doing that.  You fucking elitist douche.  That shit drips with fucking "thats cool cuz your having fun, bitch, I wash my armor with your tears" so bad its not even funny.

If you would stop that, I think most people would let you run around being a total Sirlin devotee rabid elitist fighting game fanboi, because, this just in.  Fucking nobody gives a fuck about fighting games.  This the age of multiplayer, games that force you to get real people in your living room?  Fucking fail.

When I've got real people in my living room I prefer a fucking deck of cards, some trivial persuit or just general hanging out watching sports and drinking shenanigans.  Fighting games that I need to work up a fucking sweat mastering and then playing at super high competition levels?  Are you serious?  Move outta the frat house someday and tell me how that shit works out for you. 

[Velorath]

This the age of multiplayer, games that force you to get real people in your living room?  Fucking fail.

You lost me there.  Personally I'll always prefer multiplayer gaming, with people actually in the room playing the game with me.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

Hoax: You sure are really upset about this. I really don't care what you like to play, and long as you have fun, why should I really give a shit? I can defend my stance just fine. You seem to be the only one sending out all these insults and shit. I don't think that people that don't play fighting games are little 4 yr olds, I don't recall saying that, but if you got that from this, I apologize.

If you don't want to read this thread, don't. Cause if all you are going to do is talk shit and throw insults around, I really don't need to hear your BS. I really think that you have a very shitty idea of fighting games and fighting game players and I really don't think I can change that. I really like fighting games, and I like the competitive aspect of fighting games and it seems, from my experience, that if a fighting game has a good amount of depth and balance, I seem to have a lot of fun. I have fun practicing set ups and playing other players to learn new things and see where I am at. If you think that is not your cup of tea, then fine, but if you really think that people who play fighting games and try to get pretty good at them are elitist douches and whatever, then go ahead and think that too. But really it just makes you look like a jack ass.

Keep this in mind, I am not trying to get you upset or insult you, I like to talk about fighting games, but if that is not what this site is into, I can talk about other stuff and keep the fighting game stuff to myself.   



http://www.gametrailers.com/player/26833.html
 Has more info on HD remix and some stuff about SF4. Turns out it is an internal dev team at Capcom Japan and the lead producer is one of the the guys from Onimusha and Shadow of Rome....
 

[BigBlack]

Holy shit, I'd almost forgotten about the Sirlin article.  Googled it just to confirm that yes, it was just as hilariously bad as I remembered.

I honestly can't imagine what'd have to be going through someone's head to read the Sirlin article, scratch their chin, and go "yeah, that sounds about right".

[HAMMER FRENZY]

Which of the Sirlin articles are you talking about?

[BigBlack]

This one.

[Azazel]

So have you scrubs found out anything new about SF4, or are you just swordfighting with your e-peens still?

[Velorath]

So have you scrubs found out anything new about SF4, or are you just swordfighting with your e-peens still?

Maybe you missed it a few posts back.

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/26833.html
 Has more info on HD remix and some stuff about SF4. Turns out it is an internal dev team at Capcom Japan and the lead producer is one of the the guys from Onimusha and Shadow of Rome....

[Azazel]

Actually I read through the whole thread, and indeed, I missed that line.

ta.

[schild]

I would rip off some heads for a next-gen Shadow of Rome.

[Ironwood]

I was always fairly sure Sirlin was just trolling IRL.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

Ha ha ha, I agree that Sirlin can come off pretty rough, but the guy is a a really nice fellow, I have played SF with him and he is really a lot nicer than he sounds in that article. He will teach you stuff and talk fighting games. He just played so damn much with all the best player sin the world that he understands fighting games really well and sometimes, maybe all the time, can come off like a smart ass. It is a shame though cause I tink he should have tried to aim that article not at casual players of fighting games, but more at crappy players of fighting games, by which I mean people who think they are good and assume that they can make up new rules just cause they think that they know the game so well. But all the stuff he says is on the money, minus the scrubs part. I think that it is totally okay to play SF for fun and not feel the need to get all great at it. I only think it is silly if a person REALLY thinks that something is cheap or lame even after it has been explained and the counter has been taught. I am all about teaching players that are learning new things if they want to learn, simply because it is fun for me to see other people get into fighting games a little more.

He also wrote an article about His card game, called Yomi, and he ragged on all card games minus Magic the Gathering and the WOW CTCG, which kinda sucked cause there are other card games I think are still pretty fun. Namely UFS, which I found fun and he just ripped on and the Epic Battles SF CTCG which I enjoyed also. I think that with card games I am easy to please though, as long as it is a cool subject and the game plays fun I tend to be happy.

Oddly enough He is doing a fighting card game for some flash game site and it got all these good reviews at some gaming conference. (board gaming and card games) So I was interested in checking that out.

[BigBlack]

You missed the point.  I don't particularly care if Sirlin is a smart-ass or not; we're not exactly shrinking violets here.  The point is that the actual substance of what he wrote was ridiculously ass-backwards wrong.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

Yeah I can see how it comes off as really elitist BS. The unfortunate thing is that all high level competitive gaming seems to have all the same clicks. Super serious anything breeds uber-competitive elitist jerkys. Th only good thing is that those jerkys serve as an example of what top level play looks like and what is to be expected when playing with players of that skill level.

[BigBlack]

But that's the point -- it's retarded to aim to play a video game at a 'high level'.

[Megrim]

Why?

[Yegolev]

I just want to take a second to point out that Asheron's Call sucks hobo balls.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

Big Black: Yeah, I think that playing at a high level is fine if that is what someone wants to do. I for one rather play at a high level and not have to play like crazy. I can't compete with tournament level people but i hold my own in the community, and that is good enough for me. I DO know  lot of folk who play very seriously and they are normal down to Earth people, they just have a different hobby. Playing High level fighting games takes a lot less dedication than you think it does. When I used to play Guilty Gear and go to tournaments I played twice a week and practiced like every other day before tourneys. It NEVER interfered with anything else I had to do.

[Sairon]

Really, I never understood the hate for people who takes certain games seriously. More than often it seems to come of as jealousy.

[BigBlack]

Really, I never understood the hate for people who takes certain games seriously. More than often it seems to come of as jealousy.

It impacts game design, and makes things less fun for the rest of us.

For example: Smash Brothers was less fun for me after all my friends learned how to rapidly, repeatedly spam aerials via short-hop, wave-dash, and L-canceling.

I can learn how to short-hop; it is not hard.

I can learn how to L-cancel; it is not hard.

I can learn how to wave-dash; it's not easy, but it's not that hard either.

But put these things together, and even once I've learned them all and I'm back on the same competitive level as them, the game is far less enjoyable.

Now, I have to tap L every time I land an aerial.  I have to do a silly button rapid-button combo just to space my character appropriately to attack.

The one I take the most umbrage at, though, is short-hopping.  You can't just bind a button to 'short hop' -- you have to tap the jump button incredibly lightly and quickly.  Doing so gives you a short jump that allows you to launch aerial attacks close to the ground, far more effective in most situations than standard jumping.

By the time I'm doing all these things at once, the game's become work and it isn't any fun anymore.  Not terribly fun on the fingers, either.  Even if I go "up" to their level, I'm still not anywhere near the level of fun I was having before.

And if I don't learn?  The game's still less fun, because my friends have.  It's not about win/loss ratios -- I don't think winning at a fun game is 'more fun' than losing at one -- it's about the way the game changes such that I don't get to make interesting strategic decisions anymore.

I'm looking forward to Brawl for precisely this reason.  Learning to short-hop is a small price to pay in exchange for no more wavedashing or L-canceling (though I'm holding out hope that they'll give you a 'short-hop' keybind).  There will be plenty of people better than me at Brawl, just as there are plenty of people who are better than me at Melee, but when I do lose, it'll be far more fun.


The internet connections that are now standard on consoles give me hope, though.  Something like Wavedashing is discovered?  They'll send a patch to your Wii that fixes it.

[Triforcer]

Amen.  I've never had more four-player gaming fun in my life than Brawl with three other people who didn't know about any of that dashdancing/L-canceling bullshit.  We all spam our special moves, never block, KO ourselves, and die in hilarious ways.  I've see videos of "top-level" smash and it looks like the most unfun thing ever.

[Margalis]

I am not a big fan of games that require a lot of execution without that adding much depth, but that is not the same as trying to be really good at a game.

The complaint against Smash is less that people try to play well than that playing well is tedious -- a common complaint for many games. I have the same complaint about games like Alpha 3 and CVS2.

One of the nice things about the original Street Fighter 2 is that there wasn't a lot of "practice mode" stuff. It's not the kind of game where practicing techniques in practice mode does much for you.

[BigBlack]

The complaint against Smash is less that people try to play well than that playing well is tedious -- a common complaint for many games. I have the same complaint about games like Alpha 3 and CVS2.

One of the nice things about the original Street Fighter 2 is that there wasn't a lot of "practice mode" stuff. It's not the kind of game where practicing techniques in practice mode does much for you.

Fair point.  I'd say that fighting games, as a genre, are disproportionately inclined to making it tedious to play well.  And that, given that, it's irrational to *want* to play well given the tedium it forces on all involved -- doing so places winning above 'the fun'.

Of course, that's starting from the assumption that having fun is more important than winning, and that you don't have to win to have fun.  Which, to me, sounds like common sense -- but it's directly contrary to the paradigm of Sirlin and friends.

[Aez]

Of course, that's starting from the assumption that having fun is more important than winning, and that you don't have to win to have fun.  Which, to me, sounds like common sense -- but it's directly contrary to the paradigm of Sirlin and friends.

I'm confused.  Can I agree with you and Sirlin at the same time?

[Margalis]

Sirlin's "Playing to Win" series is the worst thing on his site.

Anyway a lot of games at higher levels are not that fun to play, in part because they become very restrictive or are more about playing yourself than playing the opponent. One problem with a lot of modern fighting games is they minimize the actualy interaction with the opponent, for example X-Men vs. SF where the goal is to land a single hit then play by yourself for 15 seconds +.

Modern games are not any deeper than SF2, they just have bigger combos and more stuff you can do.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

I can see why people complain about Smash. the high level game is a completely different game than the normal game,which I think IS BS. I still play the game with ALL the levels and normal items, then I still WD LC and SH. I find that fun. All default plus the skill shit. But you can't blame fighting games for Smashe's poor design. You can look at any Smash forum and they all think that all those techniques are very silly. All moves that can be L-canceled should have just had recovery shortened, Wave dashing should have not been there. short hop should be easier and less effective, but that is not tekken or SF's or VF's fault. they get it right. the high level game is just like the low level game, just played better. (A LOT less silliness at a high level) The high level techniques in Smash are just a result of poor design on Nintendo's and Hal's part. This is why Smash is in my opinion and the opinion of many fighting game players, a quasi-fighting game. It is Smash Brothers Hyper Tournament Edition Melee. It was the trashed carcass of a party brawling game posing poorly as a competitive fighting game supported by fans who don't want to let go, or couldn't hang elsewhere. I can see the skill in it, and it has a majority of all the set ups fighting games do, but with about a third of the grace and balance. So I do hope that Brawl fixes shit, cause at this point Mellee is just a glorified party game...That you can use like 5 characters in...in like 3 levels...

When it comes to other fighting games, namely 3rd strike, Gg, VF, Tekken, etc, I see that the game is the same game, you see all the same shit you see at low level, except it is played better, tighter and smarter.

By the way, I am totally there with you on the Alpha 3 thing. I can't get into that game simply because V-ism is so damn overbearingly powerful in that game. I play X Adon so I am shit out of luck. CVS 2 on the other hand works relatively well considering all the BS that could have been there. You still see a decent' amount of variation in it, I see a lot of good C, A, P, K  and N Groove play, but S is completely ignored by most. (I actually play S groove)

I think that The execution thing is just a necessary evil in many of these cases, but I never found it a problem, and again, you can make all of these moves as easy as you want, it doesn't matter, the execution is the easier part of fighting games in many peoples opinions. It is not that people get beaten or have a lack of skill because of execution, it is a lack of experience against higher level play.

Also, more complex execution on moves is usually done for a purpose. Shoryukens, Supers anything, have special properties, and although spamming them can get you beat up, it is important to be able to botch moves like this. Shoryukens for example have the invincibility time at the beginning of the move, making them good reversals and making them pretty valuable. Being able to botch execution under pressure really livens up the game, at least for me.

I will use SF as an example again. Powerful supers are multiple commands and moves truncated for easier execution, Ryu's Shinku-Hadoken in Third Strike(Super Fire Ball) for example, is a 5 hit fireball super art. You only do 1 and a half times the execution (a hadoken and a half, (236,236, punch) of a normal fire ball though, get 5 hits (as opposed to 1), a knockdown (which is not the case with an ordinary fireball) and invincibility time at start up (which means you can use it as a reversal), it can be linked off of special moves (comboed directly off of another special move, so you can do hadoken->Super, and it connects), used as a juggle move ( if someone is falling and in a jugglable state, you can smack them with this) and used as a counter to normal projectiles or ex projectiles. ( it will cancel out the 1st or 1st and 2nd hit against normal/ex projectiles, and then keep going and hit the opponent) It is a very, very powerful move with a whole lot of uses for a lot less chance for execution error, yet it is abused like crazy, and used poorly by a majority of players. The easier execution only made it easier for good players to hit confirm a move ( visually see that a linkable move connects) then execute the super and hit you ALL THE TIME. Effectively making it harder for lower skilled players to win. So to a degree, yes easier execution can help, but it ultimately makes it easier to get moves off for better players. I really think that knowing how to use available tools well makes good players, not just the ability to execute them. Also the ability to botch such powerful moves really balances things out a bit, because at least the the less skilled player can take advantage of a situation if the advanced player slips up, which I have seen happen many, many, many times. Keep in mind that if you make the execution one button, then that would be impossible to botch, that means you are not just making it possible to land that super 100% of thee time you try to use it, but you land that reversal 100% of the time, that juggle 100% of the time, that super cancel 100% of the time Etc. It wouldn't be a matter of execution, timing, and strategy anymore, it would break down to strat and some timing. And the timing+execution being well placed strategically balances such powerful techniques out.

On the Sirlin thing. We can say all we want about him, but he knows what he is talking about when it comes to fighting games and when it comes to playing fighting games at a competitive level, and ultimately that is what that article was about. He has defended that opinion publicly on podcasts before. He is all for casual play and playing for fun, but once a player wants to play competitively, and still plays like a scrub with made up rules and honor and whatever, he is just wasting his time. he wont be able to get better and will lose to better, smarter players that take advantage of all the tools available to them.   

   

 

[Sairon]

I don't think exploiting bugs which spoils the game counts as a very good example.

I'll give another example, I just recently got into Guilty Gear, and while I would get owned by people who "play2win" I consider myself pretty good. If I play vs someone who isn't into fighters I will win every round no contest if I play a character I know, even if they've played the game causally at home. What makes that game fun though is that it's extremely deep. There's stuff in there which a starter won't even know exists, even if he see me pull it of. For example, if you manage to do the right input in a 2 - 4 frame window you can recover insanely fast when blocking an attack which means you can counter into a combo. Take a look at http://dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=372 for even more insane things like that. That's what makes the game fun, there's always room for improvement in GG. So, does that make the game less causal friendly? If someone who just causaly plays vs someone who also just plays causaly they the game is still fun.

There's nothing at all which says a game can't be fun for causal while having enough depth to be fun for the hardcore unless you're arguing that causal friendly means picking up a game and instantly being at the highest level of play.

[BigBlack]

You're ignoring how completely un-intuitive that is.   Someone blocking your attacks isn't giving any feedback from the game saying "Hey, rapidly pushing this button sequence would be a good way to quickly counter it".  It requires research, practice, etc -- defeating the whole purpose of the fact that you're *playing a game*.

It's like an old King's Quest game where you have to grab the needle in the haystack at the very beginning of the game to use at the very end, and if you didn't notice it you're screwed.  Completely unintuitive.

Smash Brothers works by actually putting the fun first, and what you learn you learn intuitively through experience, not by practice and research.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

Sairon: Is that aimed at me or someone else, cause I am right there with you. I play the crap out of Guilty Gear. I got to tournament level play at XX, Reload and some Slash, I am WAY into Accent Core right now. But I noticed that it was a relatively friendly game but was very tough and competitive at a high level play. All the False Roman Cancels can get crazy. I started playing I-No recently and I still can't FRC her jump installed Chemical Love move. But I can see that once I can get that on command it ill boost my play level big time. It is a huge part of her big damage combos. Again thought, with the "playing to win" It is a viable wat to think for people playing at a competitive/tournament setting. So I don't look at it as a bad thing at all. When I play with my buddies, I am just playing casually, I play I-No and if I play my character (Testament) I stay away from mean set ups, (FRC barney lock down mix ups) and huge loop style combos (backwoods loops). You just got to know when to put your game face on, and I think that playing to win means exactly that. When it is time to get crack'in, play to win. Otherwise, have fun and get better. 

Big Black: I think you just have to stick to SB style stuff if you want friendlier games. Fighting games are skill based. Party games are some skill and some luck. It doesn't mean that fighting games are less fun, cause there is many, many people who would disagree, including myself, it just means that if you don't want to put the time into getting good at something, then don't play, or just play with people that play casually. You will get better the more you play, so eventually you will get to the level f everyone else, or you will just stop playing. Either way it is good to have that depth for those of us who wish to continue getting better at a specific game. There is enough games and game players to be able to have the too types of games co-exist. It just seems like you are saying the games are too hard, but are not giving us examples of how to make it easier without making the games duller. It is not like roman cancels and false roman cancels are unknown to new players in Guilty gear. the instruction manual explains them really well. Not only that, the move list even tells you which moves are FRC'able. 

[Hoax]

What you aren't getting is this.

Learning to aim better, learning maps, common strats and counter strats, getting good w/ certain weapons etc etc etc.

Those are intuitive, you automagically do them while you are playing any fps.  It just happens, you are running around fragging people and you will get better at fragging people.

Figuring out fucking stupidly complex move cancel 2-4 frame bullshit in fighting games?  Not the same thing.  Not the same thing at all...

Impossible dust is a side effect of how dust combos work. After you've landed a 5D on a standing opponent, he will be launched in the air and won't be able to recover for 29 frames. In this time you automatically do a homing jump by pressing 8 or 9, following your opponent.
If you hit him in these 29 frames, he won't be able to recover for the next 48 frames. In this time you can jump cancel every move and have access to unlimited air dashes.

Now, if you do an double jump or an air dash or use FD after you activated the homing jump, this will cancel the homing jump. Your opponent will still not be able to air tech, until the 48 frames are over.

Now the basic idea is that if you hit the enemy at the proper time (right before the 29 frame window is over) and use a method to cancel your homing jump and fall down... you can make the enemy fly up and be unable to tech, while you go down and land on the ground. This is useful for characters who have better combos while they are on the ground than while they are in the air (which is a lot of the cast).

Example combo with Potemkin is:
D 9, FD j.S |> 5HS Heat Extend

Yeah I'm totally going to just "learn" to do that.  Hrmmm looks like 48 frames, time to cancel my homing jump...

For real.  They are not the same.

Learning tactics in RTS games, learning twitch "skills" in FPS games.  Learning how to be good in Sports games.  Have nothing to do with learning "advanced" tactics in fighters.  This isn't because Fighters are inherently superior (what fighting game freaks think) this is because they are inherent fail to people who just don't care that much about any form of gaming or really dont want to get off from work/school and fucking work to figure out this absurdly complicated ways to bend the scrub level ruleset and let yourself become l33t.

This is why Powerstone = Better universal fun.

PS works like a FPS/RTS/Sports title.  There isn't some magical alchemy of move cancellation, crazed finger dance and wild button pattern/combinations to memorize.  The more PS you play, the better you will be at PS but because of the way the game is designed there is no Super Sayan XXX+7 bullshit mode where you are a god compared to everyone else.  Which is what all this hoodoo mumbo jumbo "advanced fighter techniques" may as well be to most people.