Spell casting mechanics

[Stephen Zepp]

Read this in a different thread, and was interested in who might be interested in this type of mechanic:

In terms of the casting while moving mechanic, it's actually based on the original rulesets of every pen and paper game, whereby spells require a caster to concentrate, not move, and include verbal, somatic (getures/movements) or spells components to complete a spell. Casting times in MMOs are emulating this, and often the cast time includes animations or effects to further link them to this original formulation of casting spells.

Or, in the way I phrase it, who would think a mechanic where you dynamically form a spell by designating verbal, somatic, material, and concentration choices and have the final spell be based upon those selections would be interesting/enjoyable?

[Mrbloodworth]

Read this in a different thread, and was interested in who might be interested in this type of mechanic:

In terms of the casting while moving mechanic, it's actually based on the original rulesets of every pen and paper game, whereby spells require a caster to concentrate, not move, and include verbal, somatic (getures/movements) or spells components to complete a spell. Casting times in MMOs are emulating this, and often the cast time includes animations or effects to further link them to this original formulation of casting spells.

Or, in the way I phrase it, who would think a mechanic where you dynamically form a spell by designating verbal, somatic, material, and concentration choices and have the final spell be based upon those selections?

Not sure if thats a question. (Who would think?)

But, i will point to Ultimas underworld Rune system, or Ultima:Pagan's magic system. I enjoyed them. I even think, to a degree, tabula rasas "Logo" system is a system like this, however selection is not necessary, you just have to have them..and you all ready know what the "Spell" will be, unlike (during first cast) Ultima underworlds rune system. (Odd that all my examples come from the same place)

Most other MMO's require just mana... Jrpg's as well..(save a few) and i don't think i have seen a "Regent" based spell system in a while.. Scratch that, Sword of the new world does.

On one hand, a system like this sucks to keep up with (OOP "Out of Popcorns"). But then again, it can potentially shake up combat.

Real questions is, Is it worth the hassle, in terms of programing, and players want to keep up with it.

Hand gestures could be done with a mouse movement (Or wii-mote), and some sort of tracking/translating thingy... (Like Raving rabids, the food shape drawing mini-game)

I think it would work better in a single player game, than a MMO.

[Musashi]

Like in lieu of stopping and hitting one button until a cast bar ends, I get to hit macro 4 buttons and do it on the move?  Or are you talking about some kind of crazy voice recognition combined with fighter moves?  "Sonic Boom!"

[Stephen Zepp]

Fixed my original post, correct it wasn't actually a question ;)

I'm thinking of something similar to "combo moves" style of play, adapted to fantasy spell casting, where a series of inputs form a (pre-calculated, or possibly even free-form) causes a spell to be formed and cast.

Think of something like normal fighting games, but viewed from a longer interval--instead of pressing AABForward to do a single move, you'd press AABForward to cast a spell.

AC1 had a dynamic spell creation system, and Daggerfall even allowed for pre-designing spells and then being able to cast those pre-determined spells later, but I'm thinking more of a "real time spell adjustment" concept where you can adapt a spell as it forms to modify it based on changing game state, or create a spell in response to one an opponent is forming--you get to watch it form via various visual/audio clues, and attempt to counter-act, block, or avoid as it becomes more clear what is being cast against you.

[Mrbloodworth]

Fixed my original post, correct it wasn't actually a question ;)

I'm thinking of something similar to "combo moves" style of play, adapted to fantasy spell casting, where a series of inputs form a (pre-calculated, or possibly even free-form) causes a spell to be formed and cast.

Think of something like normal fighting games, but viewed from a longer interval--instead of pressing AABForward to do a single move, you'd press AABForward to cast a spell.

AC1 had a dynamic spell creation system, and Daggerfall even allowed for pre-designing spells and then being able to cast those pre-determined spells later, but I'm thinking more of a "real time spell adjustment" concept where you can adapt a spell as it forms to modify it based on changing game state, or create a spell in response to one an opponent is forming--you get to watch it form via various visual/audio clues, and attempt to counter-act, block, or avoid as it becomes more clear what is being cast against you.

Age of conan, i think, has something like this...even botches.

EDIT: Found where i read that. It reads "Kinda" like you describe, or it may be a simple: Cast A, then B, then C get X.

Magic-wielders get to create powerful spellweaves -- a series of combined spells that can lead to devestating destruction other powerful results

Linky

[ajax34i]

Think of something like normal fighting games, but viewed from a longer interval--instead of pressing AABForward to do a single move, you'd press AABForward to cast a spell.

I don't think it would be fun.

Who would get this?  Does the warrior in full plate get to type AABForward and cast a spell?  Or is the capability to cast spells restricted to mages?  In which case, ok, so I make a mage character that can... uh has the potential to be able to cast spells, but doesn't have any, cause I haven't discovered any, and in the absence of web-based spoiler sites, must catass my way through random key combinations so I can discover the proper ones and unlock my class?

I think that being able to cast spells is a cool thing to fantasize about being able to do.  The tedium you have to go through to actually get each spell out...  not.

[Stephen Zepp]

Think of something like normal fighting games, but viewed from a longer interval--instead of pressing AABForward to do a single move, you'd press AABForward to cast a spell.

I don't think it would be fun.

Who would get this?  Does the warrior in full plate get to type AABForward and cast a spell?  Or is the capability to cast spells restricted to mages?  In which case, ok, so I make a mage character that can... uh has the potential to be able to cast spells, but doesn't have any, cause I haven't discovered any, and in the absence of web-based spoiler sites, must catass my way through random key combinations so I can discover the proper ones and unlock my class?

I think that being able to cast spells is a cool thing to fantasize about being able to do.  The tedium you have to go through to actually get each spell out...  not.

Assume no physical combat for the discussion--PvP mage fights.

[Arrrgh]

Go to WoW. Make a priest. Level to 70. Join an arena team. Play a few matches. Come back and tell us how much you enjoy long casting times while being pounded on by rogues and warriors.

I'm sure the melee would dearly love to watch you form a spell by designating verbal, somatic, material, and concentration choices.

[Arrrgh]

Oh, you throw in no melee while I'm replying. Tricky.

[Stephen Zepp]

Go to WoW. Make a priest. Level to 70. Join an arena team. Play a few matches. Come back and tell us how much you enjoy long casting times while being pounded on by rogues and warriors.

I'm sure the melee would dearly love to watch you form a spell by designating verbal, somatic, material, and concentration choices.

As stated above, this is a mechanic--the assumption being that it's the main mechanic of the discussion (if not the only one), which would imply no melee ;) Hehe..sorry about that. (saw your re-post).

[bhodi]

A lot of potential meat here. For dynamic spell generation, it could be fun if you do it right. Offhand, here's a way that I can think of that might be fun. If are focused on something like this, spellcasting on the fly, streamlining using contextual menus is key. You've got to be able to get this spell off VERY fast, especially if you're planning for PvP. It's also got to be a major focus of the game; if you put a system like this in, you'd better let everyone be a caster of some kind or put in a similar system.

The first would be something like an on-the-fly spell cast, composed of 3 elements -- elemental type, area of effect, special power. To cast, you'd use the keyboard or keypad, a direction for each. For example, you hit a key to begin casting, and then to select you'd hit a direction 3 times, once for each type you want. If your contextual menus were
'up - ice, down - fire, left - earth, right - water'
'up - single target, down - small circular aoe, left - line, right, PBAoE'
'up - stun, down - life drain, left - accuracy debuff, right - damage over time'

then hitting the 'action' key/button and then hitting left up right would give you an ice-based, single target spell that also had a DoT component. You may want to add the option to store popular spell selections as a hotkeys. You could have a menu in front of those, offensive, defensive, control, healing, etc. -- you get the idea. You could also be tricky and plan specific directions, if you're talking console games, so that commonly cast spells would work out to a smooth arc, and spells that have more power, versatility, or aren't used as much use opposing directions (left right left) -- this increases the 'cast time'. You'd obviously have 8 directions if you wanted to start putting in capcom moves.

If you just wanted to add a little extra feature instead of an entire spell-cast system, there are a few ways that I think of offhand that you could go about adding 'mini-game' type gameplay:

a 'chargup' bar where you have to hit a stop button at the top of the arc
a simon-says or memory keypress-in-order
a 'reaction' type gameplay where you have to hit a button or direction corresponding to a symbol quickly.

These are tried, true, and have been used with success in games over and over again. It seems logical you could draw on something like this, in terms of combat, for some sort of 'finishing move' to add damage, or a special move that can be used once every few minutes or when specific circumstances are involved.

I think a system in which you have to co-operate with your teammates to achieve a (combat) goal adds loads to the gameplay, and the only game I can think of where something like this was added is FFXI's renkei system. Adding group timing / participation to combat, in moderation, could add quite a bit of camaraderie and gameplay value - as long as you plan for the tards.

[Mrbloodworth]

A lot of potential meat here. For dynamic spell generation, it could be fun if you do it right. Offhand, here's a way that I can think of that might be fun. If are focused on something like this, spellcasting on the fly, streamlining using contextual menus is key. You've got to be able to get this spell off VERY fast, especially if you're planning for PvP. It's also got to be a major focus of the game; if you put a system like this in, you'd better let everyone be a caster of some kind or put in a similar system.

The first would be something like an on-the-fly spell cast, composed of 3 elements -- elemental type, area of effect, special power. To cast, you'd use the keyboard or keypad, a direction for each. For example, you hit a key to begin casting, and then to select you'd hit a direction 3 times, once for each type you want. If your contextual menus were
'up - ice, down - fire, left - earth, right - water'
'up - single target, down - small circular aoe, left - line, right, PBAoE'
'up - stun, down - life drain, left - accuracy debuff, right - damage over time'

then hitting the 'action' key/button and then hitting left up right would give you an ice-based, single target spell that also had a DoT component. You may want to add the option to store popular spell selections as a hotkeys. You could have a menu in front of those, offensive, defensive, control, healing, etc. -- you get the idea. You could also be tricky and plan specific directions, if you're talking console games, so that common spells would work out to a smooth arc. You'd obviously have 8 directions in that case.

If you just wanted to add a little extra feature instead of an entire spell-cast system, there are a few ways that I think of offhand that you could go about adding 'mini-game' type gameplay:

a 'chargup' bar where you have to hit a stop button at the top of the arc
a simon-says or memory keypress-in-order
a 'reaction' type gameplay where you have to hit a button or direction corresponding to a symbol quickly.

These are tried, true, and have been used with success in games over and over again. It seems logical you could draw on something like this, in terms of combat, for some sort of 'finishing move' to add damage, or a special move that can be used once every few minutes or when specific circumstances are involved.

I think a system in which you have to co-operate with your teammates to achieve a (combat) goal adds loads to the gameplay, and the only game I can think of where something like this was added is FFXI's renkei system. Adding group timing / participation to combat, in moderation, could add quite a bit of camaraderie and gameplay value - as long as you plan for the tards.

Not to sound like a broken record, but Planetsides Voice macro system (V-V-W) would work well with "Combining" things to form a spell.

[bhodi]

Contextual menus aren't a new thing, putting it into core gameplay mechanics is. Klingon Academy is the only game that I can think of that used it as a fundamental gameplay mechanic. Planetside ripped off that particular functionality (quick voice commands) from other games. Hell, counterstrike and other multiplayer FPSes have the EXACT same system. There are any number of ways to implement it in a user-interface point of view; you do have more flexibility (and complexity) options with a keyboard than you do with a controller.

The end question is how to streamline it into a system that can easily be used on the fly -- branching options are pretty much the only speedy way to go, unless you want a 'plan ahead and hotkey' system. They both have their merits.

[Mrbloodworth]

Contextual menus aren't a new thing, putting it into core gameplay mechanics is. Klingon Academy is the only game that I can think of that used it as a fundamental gameplay mechanic. Planetside ripped off that particular functionality (quick voice commands) from other games. Hell, counterstrike and other multiplayer FPSes have the EXACT same system. There are any number of ways to implement it in a user-interface point of view; you do have more flexibility (and complexity) options with a keyboard than you do with a controller.

The end question is how to streamline it into a system that can easily be used on the fly -- branching options are pretty much the only speedy way to go, unless you want a 'plan ahead and hotkey' system. They both have their merits.

I only brought it up as an example, not to claim they invented it. I enjoy the quickness that comes with it, more so than say, BF or The new quake wars system of it in the middle of your screen. I know you can hit the numbers, but then it becomes a hand position thing.

[taolurker]

Firstly, I'd like to point out that the portion of my reply was in a thread asking for less button pressing and that although this type of mechanic would be favored by some people, others would say it was inefficient, time-consuming, and confusing.

Me, I'm actually in favor of more complexity, and I would actually prefer a mechanic that would allow for more diversity in spells and classs delineation, but I also would add that this type of mechanic does not lend itself to "twitch based" or MMO type gaming.

I could easily see how "spell-weaving" or even the EQ2 system of "Heroic Opportunities" (chaining certain abilities results in an ultra powered ending) would be compared to this, but I think that our red-named friend was thinking more of "custom spell-casting/creation" rather than of chain attack type abilities.

The implementation of this suggestion would require a (rather huge) set of variables and combinations that would need to remain static due to coding (plus be in a walkthrough/guide someplace), and this type of complexity is probably beyond most gamers learning curves, so it becomes simply adding complexity for complexity's sake.

Maybe if the game was a single player one, with players becoming an apprentice wizard? Other than that I'm not sure it would be something embraced by players, especially if it wasn't done right, (ie making it fun, easy enough to complete, or enough of a challenge to want to continue playing it).

[Stephen Zepp]

Me, I'm actually in favor of more complexity, and I would actually prefer a mechanic that would allow for more diversity in spells and classs delineation, but I also would add that this type of mechanic does not lend itself to "twitch based" or MMO type gaming.

Yes to first, not necessarily to second.

I could easily see how "spell-weaving" or even the EQ2 system of "Heroic Opportunities" (chaining certain abilities results in an ultra powered ending) would be compared to this, but I think that our red-named friend was thinking more of "custom spell-casting/creation" rather than of chain attack type abilities.

Correct :)

The implementation of this suggestion would require a (rather huge) set of variables and combinations that would need to remain static due to coding (plus be in a walkthrough/guide someplace), and this type of complexity is probably beyond most gamers learning curves, so it becomes simply adding complexity for complexity's sake.

Not true at all regarding implementation or design. Rules based final spell determination for the win here.

Maybe if the game was a single player one, with players becoming an apprentice wizard? Other than that I'm not sure it would be something embraced by players, especially if it wasn't done right, (ie making it fun, easy enough to complete, or enough of a challenge to want to continue playing it).

While I see a single player game around the mechanic, I more directly see this is as a player vs player (vs player vs xx) focused mechanic, myself. Being able to guess what a player is casting and react to it before they finish weaving the cast would be really interesting--think something like Guild Wars "interrupt" mechanic for mesmers, but more interactive than just "hit my button before their cast bar is done".

[bhodi]

Well, you could design (or wholesale steal) mechanics for fairly balanced spellcasting -- the wild mage 3e splatbook was a good example of a fairly balanced system you could transfer over, which balances damage, range, targets, additional effects, if you just want to have an 'invent your own' system in which you can vary different aspects of spells. You really only have two options still -- plan-ahead-hotkeyed and on-the-fly casting. You can always structure combat to make things slower paced to give people more time to think, of course.

This can obviously be combined with what you're saying to create a very robust 'dueling' type system -- rock-paper-scissors counters with some sort of interrupt mechanic to mitigate damage... you could play attack-defend-attack-defend, with the defender having an interrupt minigame using visual cues. This seems to only work with a 1v1, I can't see it being overly useful in group combat unless the game was structured to force the 1v1s in some way.

[Musashi]

Would be interesting to see that mage move.  Say he takes one step forward, and two back.  I'd be able to predict what he was going to do if I knew the mage moves well enough.  Just like when you see Ken or Ryu stutter stepping toward you.

Seems like it would be some kind of finger fuckery on a keyboard though.  Maybe if an mmo for the consoles.

Also if you had to use your movement keys for combos or whatever, wouldn't that be the same as not being able to move to cast a spell?

[Samwise]

Or, in the way I phrase it, who would think a mechanic where you dynamically form a spell by designating verbal, somatic, material, and concentration choices and have the final spell be based upon those selections would be interesting/enjoyable?

It would depend on how you make it "dynamic".  The additional examples you've given later in the thread do not sound "dynamic" to me; pushing multiple buttons to do something does not add dynamism if it's the same exact buttons each time.

A "dynamic" system would be one that requires the player to analyze the environment in some way and make decisions based on it, like a puzzle/board game in which the position of the board dictates which moves you can make, or a shooter in which you have to quickly assess what direction an enemy might be approaching from or how best to take cover while returning fire.

Fighting games are highly dynamic, but it's not because you have to push multiple buttons to do certain moves.  It's because each move will only work under certain conditions (i.e. how far away the opponent is and what move they're currently doing), and those conditions are changing constantly.

Give me a few ticks and I can try to think of a system that satisfies the "dynamic" condition better...

[bhodi]

Also if you had to use your movement keys for combos or whatever, wouldn't that be the same as not being able to move to cast a spell?

Well, if we wanted to go with visual queues and an interrupt system, hypothetically, casting could be a multi-step process -- hold the mouse button down to initiate spell selection, (character does some sort of windup/power summoning motion) and then once choices have been made, release mouse and it starts a 3 second cast time where your character goes through the specific motions, one second for each -- if you can recognize which direction he pushed, you can counter with your your own while your opponent is still casting to cancel/mitigate that part of the spell.

Another idea would be to tie chargeup length of time into spell damage -- Say you have 5 seconds to choose up to 3 components of a spell.... the longer you hold down a direction for those 5 seconds, the more powerful that component is. It could be represented with a bar that slowly fills up across the screen, and the direction pushes (and holds) color the bar -- at the end, your character acts out what you have selected with the same selection as above. That gives opponents a longer chance to interrupt each component, but a larger payoff if he isn't paying attention or you use an unconventional attack. What if he can only counter one component? He'd have to guess which one to pick!

Hopefully, the selections would have enough variance that it wouldn't always be "straight damage / single target". I could see a whole tree of roots stuns confuses counters, dots, slows, stuns, etc -- the sky's the limit, but complexity would have to be considered.

[taolurker]

I'm one of those people who could (and possibly still can) do 12 hit combo strings in fighting games, so I could envision a duel based game around this, but honestly I can't really see a fighting game that was all waiting around to chain the correct combos together to beat an opponent. It wouldn't be extremely deep, fun to watch or exciting either, because all casters would do would be interrupt one another over and over (because getting hit by a spell is akin to moving, interrupting casting) taking minor chunks of damage off one another (with no one ever completing the uber string of insta-death).

I don't see a context menu actually working that well either, because it would eliminate the experimenting, diversity and challenge I think Mr Zepp was trying to instill, but I have to say that I like the idea of discovering and experimenting with spells.

The issue of how it's played though is where it would need to really overcome the "complexity for complexity's sake" and if it was say a "dueling" console game it would require almost too much experimentation and not enough action to hold many gamer's attentions. Dueling casters is definitely not the same as a straight out beat em up, martial arts type, string combos, and all I see is gamers spending alot of time looking up guides or entering button presses randomly to get that oooh wow effect (damn was that <><>ABAAB or <><ABAAB?).

Making this into a single player, Oblivion type game is likely just about the only way I could see this working.

[bhodi]

Discovery is a lost cause in a multiplayer game, the first thing people would do his hit gamefaqs. You might as well clearly enumerate all your possibilities, there's no such thing as a 'hidden' spell on the internet. Remember 'hidden' diablo2 recipes?

Since I've been player guitar hero, why not use a similar mechanic? Spells are a stream coming towards you, and to counter, you have to repeat the exact thing that was cast using only color visual queues, transferring from one aspect to another just as it hits you. Spell duels could start out slow, and then get faster and faster. You could have a cursor that moves a certain fixed speed and in whatever direction you choose. You draw a sigil using it (think etch-a-sketch) and then they have to repeat what you drew or take damage. Gradually, the cursor starts moving faster and faster, making it easier for them to spam the controller in random directions. Spam could be handled at low levels by having a large moving circle for 'attack' and a smaller pointer for defend which you have to keep 'inside' the attack area -- spam does you little since the attack area wouldn't move fast enough. If done in a 3d enviorn with the spell coming to you, and ending at a 2d plane/grid, you should be able to, with some practice, look 'ahead' and see the general idea of the movements they make.

I'm not sure you'd want something like that, I guess it's consideration of what skill you want to focus on -- quick fingers, memory retention, attack and appropriate riposte combos, etc. There are a lot of mechanics you can 'borrow' and adapt from other games, guitaroman is a good example.

I know I'm focusing on one aspect of gameplay which may not be the one initially intended. I guess I'm more interested in presentation and novel combat systems than I am with 'build your own spell out of lego bricks!' type gameplay. I still like the idea of a general 'damage' spell being able to be manipulated on the fly by widening it into an AoE or Cone at the cost of reducing it's damage.

[pxib]

I'd be happy just to see individual spells with more character and utility.

Rather than:  Energy Blast-- Instant cast direct damage, 5 second cooldown.

How about:   Energy Blast-- "Concentrate" for less than half a second to release a small point blank AoE damage burst.
Longer than half a second, you'll start emitting particle effects and then stepping forward will fire a blast at your target. Walk backwards while glowing and the blast charges for up to five seconds... a more powerful blast the longer the charge. Tap backwards again while charging and the spell turns into a shield buff, able to deflect more damage the longer it has charged. Charge the entire five seconds and the spell disperses as a large stationary field at the caster's location which puts a nasty DOT on anybody enemy who passes through it during the next minute.

If interrupted during the charge period (or with a back tap, if the spellcaster already has a shield buff), the charge level is released as a (potentially powerful) point blank AoE... doing damage to all nearby foes AND the caster.

A little mana is used for activation, then more mana burns at a specific (or accelerating) rate during the charge period.

---

It'd take some practice to learn how to use a spell, but each would still be a single button on the quickbar. If the game has a level progression, perhaps Energy Blast gains these those abilities as the character levels up, getting used to each new aspect of the spell as they appear. Other spells might have branching charge possibilities, or might involve esoteric charging methods (charges while the character is falling, charges while the character is taking damage, charges while the character remains a particular distance from the target).

Color or icon code the spells so that enemies can identify what's being cast and try to react appropriately.

[WindupAtheist]

In a PVP game?  Everyone will have the complexity macroed away and the entire system may as well not exist.  Nobody will be hitting down, diagonal, toward + punch.  Everyone will just be clicking "hadoken" on their custom UI and/or cheat program.

[eldaec]

Read this in a different thread, and was interested in who might be interested in this type of mechanic:

In terms of the casting while moving mechanic, it's actually based on the original rulesets of every pen and paper game, whereby spells require a caster to concentrate, not move, and include verbal, somatic (getures/movements) or spells components to complete a spell. Casting times in MMOs are emulating this, and often the cast time includes animations or effects to further link them to this original formulation of casting spells.

Or, in the way I phrase it, who would think a mechanic where you dynamically form a spell by designating verbal, somatic, material, and concentration choices and have the final spell be based upon those selections would be interesting/enjoyable?

Do we see this as a matter of how the command is input, or are we really just talking about having more choices in the cost/benefit of a spell?

The UI stuff, meh, in the long term (ie. in a MMOG) it becomes second nature and no longer part of the fun.

The choices thing, well ok, but choices within, for example, a nuke spell, aren't where the problems are in MMOG spellcasting. The problems are the cost model, and the fact that almost all the spells are nuke spells.


MMOG spellcasting almost always gives you all your resources at the start, and makes the game about pushing out everything as fast as possible.

If you are going for a caster based MMOG, you need to look at something like mtg and find a way to do that in real time.

1) Resources for spells should have to be developed during a battle, not beforehand. This way resource management is meaningful. A significant portion of a mage's spell base should be resource development spells.
2) Spells should get more powerful as a duel runs on, not get less powerful because of dwindling resources. This is an obvious rule of how you develop drama.
3) Mages should not all be competing to fire out all their spells as quickly as possible. Again, look to mtg for the concept of aggro mages (cast everything at the opp's head as fast as you can - hope to overwhlem the opp before they get going) vs combo mages (develop resources as quickly as you can, hope you aren't dead before you reach HADOKEN) vs control mages (attempt to disrupt the opp's plan until resources develop to the higher end, then have better finisher spells than the other guy).


In a long term game the UI vanishes. Players stop seeing it.

And simple choices (do I cast for twice as long to get 3x the effect) won't substantially change gameplay.


MMOG mages need to be casting more spells that don't simply say 'deal X damage'. And they need to be developing the ability to cast spells during a battle, not by waiting for mana to regen between a battle, or visting a store to buy a gazillion stacks of bone chips.

[Samwise]

Someone should just make a Puzzle Quest MMO and be done with it.  (Not sure if you've played it, eldaec, but it has all the qualities you describe.)

[Venkman]

I like the thinking. I do feel though that unless there's a lot of coordination in a group, the amount of time it takes to create a dynamic and interesting spell could be cumbersome and annoying. At the same time, I loved Ryzom's "bricks" system where you could technically create your own abilities by breaking down into subcomponent parts how game-provided abilities are built. Wish that would be picked up by someone else, but unfortunately the game's not successful enough to brook emulation.

[Stephen Zepp]

Someone should just make a Puzzle Quest MMO and be done with it.  (Not sure if you've played it, eldaec, but it has all the qualities you describe.)

All the qualities who describes? I've played PQ (in fact, just picked up the demo again to waste some time while brainstorming recently), and it has none of the qualities I'm describing ;)

[Samwise]

Someone should just make a Puzzle Quest MMO and be done with it.  (Not sure if you've played it, eldaec, but it has all the qualities you describe.)

All the qualities who describes?

The martini-wielding guy I was addressing.  I have bolded his name for your convenience.   

I agree it does not satisfy the qualities you describe, Stephen.  The game I can think of that best matches your hypothetical spellcasting system is Potion Panic, where you mix different quantities of different components to produce different potions with different effects.  It is not what I would call "dynamic", though, because eventually you figure out a handful of optimal (or at least usable) recipes and you just use those over and over.   After five minutes of experimentation you might as well just have a hotbar of predefined spells.  Which is pretty much what everyone in the thread has already said, so I didn't think it was worth discussing further.   

Puzzle Quest's gameplay is a lot more dynamic, even if you aren't "inventing" spells on the fly, because you can't just cast the same spell, or sequence of spells, repeatedly.  You have to build up the mana types needed to cast various spells during the course of the fight, and frequently you're choosing between doing damage right now, storing up mana that you can use later to do even more damage, or maybe hoarding mana that isn't as useful to you directly but that you don't want your opponent to get his hands on.  Making meaningful choices in response to changing conditions... that's where it's at.

[Stephen Zepp]

The game I can think of that best matches your hypothetical spellcasting system is Potion Panic, where you mix different quantities of different components to produce different potions with different effects.  It is not what I would call "dynamic", though, because eventually you figure out a handful of optimal (or at least usable) recipes and you just use those over and over.   After five minutes of experimentation you might as well just have a hotbar of predefined spells.  Which is pretty much what everyone in the thread has already said, so I didn't think it was worth discussing further.   

I agree, this is a big risk--but one that can be hopefully managed as long as you continue to focus on the act of the casting itself (as much as you can anyway) as the primary mechanic, not the effects of the spell cast.

I know that sounds weird--it's a hard thing to describe. The closest I can come to really is playing an old school red/blue interrupt deck in MTG, or playing an interrupt mesmer in GW. In both cases, what you did and when was specifically in relation to what your opponent was doing, and that's the type of game mechanic I'm trying to describe.

Puzzle Quest's gameplay is a lot more dynamic, even if you aren't "inventing" spells on the fly, because you can't just cast the same spell, or sequence of spells, repeatedly.  You have to build up the mana types needed to cast various spells during the course of the fight, and frequently you're choosing between doing damage right now, storing up mana that you can use later to do even more damage, or maybe hoarding mana that isn't as useful to you directly but that you don't want your opponent to get his hands on.  Making meaningful choices in response to changing conditions... that's where it's at.

Agreed on your analysis in some ways--I think that's why PQ is still so interesting to me even with just the demo. I've played every class to "max" (30+ all skills, everything available "done") many multiple times, and it's interesting to me that there is a "fight to fight" difference in how you play based on what's going on in that fight. The "mana as a resource" thing isn't necessarily the way I'm thinking about this idea, but it does work.

[Bunk]

Well, it could be interesting done right, and of course done fun. First off, it can't have anything to do with keystrokes or combinations thereof. As soon as keys are involved, it gets macroed. Make it about mouse movement patterns. Here's an idea off of the top of my head:

Standard WASD/Mouse control Scheme
Before you cast, you designate in the UI what components you are using. Have a certain number of slots you can drop comps in to.
Holding down Mouse 2 puts you in "casting mode"  - you may or may not allow the player to keep moving via WASD
Once in casting mode, the pattern drawn by the mouse combined with the chosen comps determine the spell.

Example: Component -Sulfer - mouse in a circle and then pulled back towards the caster - might be a ring shaped fire burst centered on the caster
Same motion but add coal to the sulfer - same effect plus a cloud of smoke centered on you

More complex or higher damage spells would take more complex motions. Screwing up the motion could of course result in undersired effects. "Oops, I pushed forward during that heal spell and healed the orc instead."

You would allow the player to cast anything they want if they have the components and can figure out the motions. They would find better comps and be shown specific motions as they progress.

Unfortunately, it would likely work better in a single player pve game than an MMO - since an MMO would have all the recipies online in a week (like they did with AC1).

[Samwise]

The problem with mouse gesture recognition systems, much like speech recognition systems, is that they tend to be obnoxious as fuck.  They're also no less macro-able than keystroke combinations.

(I do like the theory of gesture-based spellcasting, though, even if it would probably be annoying in practice.  I remember doodling out a design very much like what you describe several years ago, probably after I played Black and White for the first time and thought "oo, this would be cool in an FPS/RPG.")

[Stephen Zepp]

I could be wrong here, but I think the "worry" about things being macro-d is unwarranted if the system is designed correctly.

Using a macro would be locking yourself into a cast pattern over a period of time, and removing the advantage of being able to adapt your spell as it's formed based on what the opponent is doing.

Let's say your opponent is casting a fireball (you see the fire around him, you hear him uttering the words for "damage health", and his animation is doing it's "ball missile" thing. Let's say that before you had seen him start to cast, you had focused on the water realm, but hadn't yet done anything else with the spell (thereby your water power was building over time, but nothing else yet). Your intent was to cast a "flood" spell, which takes xx seconds to cast.

Now, if player A and player B were using macros, both would be locked in to their final spell results--a fireball on the one hand, and a flood spell on the other.

However, if player A was using a macro, but player B wasn't, player B could see the fireball spell indicators, and change his spell dynamically to all sorts of "counter the opponent" options:

--cast a raincloud over player A, reducing the fire realm power he had gathered
--cast a "splash" cantrip (low power, fast cast), with the sole goal to distract player A, interrupting his cast (and causing him to have to start from scratch, instead of having his built up fire power still handy)
--cast a "wall of water" spell around himself, eating up much of the force of the fireball as the missile itself hit the wall
--cast a "protection from fire" buff on himself to increase his fire resistance.

Sure, players are going to macro, but relying completely on macros could be a very bad thing against a smart and aware player.

[Stephen Zepp]

The problem with mouse gesture recognition systems, much like speech recognition systems, is that they tend to be obnoxious as fuck.  They're also no less macro-able than keystroke combinations.

(I do like the theory of gesture-based spellcasting, though, even if it would probably be annoying in practice.  I remember doodling out a design very much like what you describe several years ago, probably after I played Black and White for the first time and thought "oo, this would be cool in an FPS/RPG.")

They also are much less counter-intuitive (depending on the implementation) to the user, and have issues going cross-controls/cross platform (would work awesomely on the Wii, be much easier with a mouse than a 360 controller, etc).

[Samwise]

The thing of modifying your spell at different stages based on what the opponent is doing, THAT sounds cool.