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Author Topic: "DonnyBrook"  (Read 6571 times)
Mrbloodworth
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on: September 13, 2007, 09:58:50 AM


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schild
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Reply #1 on: September 13, 2007, 10:14:08 AM

It's legit.

They should have called it Negative Ping code though, since it's a pipe dream.
Mrbloodworth
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Reply #2 on: September 13, 2007, 10:31:09 AM

It's legit.

They should have called it Negative Ping code though, since it's a pipe dream.

I dunno, it sounds feasible.

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Yegolev
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Reply #3 on: September 13, 2007, 11:12:49 AM

I can't recall being in a FPS and thinking "Jeez, I wish there were more assholes in this map."

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
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Mrbloodworth
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Reply #4 on: September 13, 2007, 11:15:16 AM

I can't recall being in a FPS and thinking "Jeez, I wish there were more assholes in this map."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

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taleril
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Reply #5 on: September 13, 2007, 11:20:21 AM

It does sound doable.  The problem is with the rosy picture they are painting of the result of their "guidable AI" and "focus sets".  I would be impressed if they can somehow prevent rubber-banding and/or warping of players who are outside of your "focus set."
Grand Design
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Reply #6 on: September 13, 2007, 12:46:54 PM

This sounds like a lot of hocus-pocus.  The solution that they offer to this problem is no better than the problem itself.  So, instead of having lag and warping, MS will write an algorithm to guesstimate where players should be and place them there on your pc, regardless of where they are in the zone / map on their own pc? 

That's not a solution; that's the illusion of a solution.  That may be fine with n00bkillah007, but as a programmer, I call bullshit.
Mrbloodworth
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Reply #7 on: September 13, 2007, 01:05:15 PM

This sounds like a lot of hocus-pocus.  The solution that they offer to this problem is no better than the problem itself.  So, instead of having lag and warping, MS will write an algorithm to guesstimate where players should be and place them there on your pc, regardless of where they are in the zone / map on their own pc? 

That's not a solution; that's the illusion of a solution.  That may be fine with n00bkillah007, but as a programmer, I call bullshit.

Don't allot of on line games do this already? Movement prediction? It didn't say that everyone is with out updates, just less if you are not "interacting" with them. I didnt take it as, walk to far away and its BOT time.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 01:11:13 PM by Mrbloodworth »

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cmlancas
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Reply #8 on: September 13, 2007, 01:13:19 PM

I can't recall being in a FPS and thinking "Jeez, I wish there were more assholes assholes with one hit kill weapons in this map screaming at me on XBL."

Fixed.


Also, I feel like I'm being punched in the face every time someone uses the construction allot or alot. If you want to say a lot people, say it. To allot is to give a specific number of something. Alot doesn't exist.

Fuck.  angry

Edit: Sorry. I tried to bring the funny and failed at first, so I tried to make it half bearable.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 01:15:05 PM by cmlancas »

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Mrbloodworth
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Reply #9 on: September 13, 2007, 01:18:01 PM

My bad. (i never calmed written English was a strength of mine)

Anyway, i don't care about CS, but it does get me thinking about a lot of uses for other games. Perhaps a more "Stable" Planetisde type game?

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cmlancas
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Reply #10 on: September 13, 2007, 01:32:06 PM

I didn't mean to call you out, I was just snippy; sorry.

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Yoru
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Reply #11 on: September 13, 2007, 01:34:00 PM

This sounds like a lot of hocus-pocus.  The solution that they offer to this problem is no better than the problem itself.  So, instead of having lag and warping, MS will write an algorithm to guesstimate where players should be and place them there on your pc, regardless of where they are in the zone / map on their own pc? 

That's not a solution; that's the illusion of a solution.  That may be fine with n00bkillah007, but as a programmer, I call bullshit.

Don't allot of on line games do this already? Movement prediction? It didn't say that everyone is with out updates, just less if you are not "interacting" with them. I didnt take it as, walk to far away and its BOT time.

This.

Although movement prediction these days is mostly just "keep moving on the same vector/curve you were moving on in the last update" as I've observed it. I question the value of dedicating cycles to modeling your opponents' potential movements compared to, you know, running the actual game.

But I guess you have to do something with all those extra cores they're putting in machines these days.
Grand Design
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Reply #12 on: September 13, 2007, 01:35:10 PM

Don't allot of on line games do this already? Movement prediction? It didn't say that everyone is with out updates, just less if you are not "interacting" with them. I didnt take it as, walk to far away and its BOT time.

I'm pretty sure that 2nd generation MMOs do.  But a PvE MMO is very different from a FPS MMO.  In a PvE, the target resides on the server, so latency among the clients will only mean that one person may see the target drop a split second before another person.  In a FPS MMO, you may be killed before it registers on your PC. 

Maybe I'm being nitpicky, but this just seems like MS is claiming to have a revolutionary solution, when really it is just an illusion.  In other words, no latency issue is solved; they simply decided not to transfer character location information if the character is deemed too far from your position.  "We didn't do something that we were doing before," is not revolutionary.

I guess what I don't like is the notion of "guided-AI."  In practice, does it matter if you have an algorithm that moves a character once packets stop being received?  If player X moves 20 feet north, but the algorithm determines he probably moved 40 feet northwest, you will still see warping when player X is back within your range. 

That is, unless Microsoft's algorithm somehow can predict how n00bkillah007 behaves.  Now that would be revolutionary.
Mrbloodworth
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Reply #13 on: September 13, 2007, 01:36:59 PM

I didn't mean to call you out, I was just snippy; sorry.

Bla, think nothing of it.

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Reply #14 on: September 13, 2007, 02:08:32 PM

That is, unless Microsoft's algorithm somehow can predict how n00bkillah007 behaves.  Now that would be revolutionary.

How would switching ELIZA's vocabulary to "gay", "n00b", "pwn3d" and "lol" be revolutionary?
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Reply #15 on: September 13, 2007, 02:08:59 PM

Quote
How would switching ELIZA's vocabulary to "gay", "n00b", "pwn3d" and "lol" be revolutionary?

I'm downloading ELIZA tonight.
Nebu
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Reply #16 on: September 13, 2007, 02:18:10 PM

The only way that I can see this happening is if they put more information on the client side... which is a recipe for disaster in anything pvp related. 

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Grand Design
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Reply #17 on: September 13, 2007, 02:19:12 PM

That is, unless Microsoft's algorithm somehow can predict how n00bkillah007 behaves.  Now that would be revolutionary.

How would switching ELIZA's vocabulary to "gay", "n00b", "pwn3d" and "lol" be revolutionary?

Grand Design says, "n00b, please stop spawn camping me"
n00bkillah007 says, "how does it make you feel that I am spawn camping you?"
Grand Design says, "wtf kind of question is that?"
n00bkillah007 says, "can you elaborate on the kind of question is that?"
Grand Design says, "let me guess, you are korean?"
noobkillah007 says, "what makes you think that I am korean?"
Grand Design says, "your grammar is terrible, and your tactics are worse"
n00bkillah007 says, "can you elaborate on my grammar is terrible, and my tactics are worse?"
Grand Design has left the game
raydeen
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Reply #18 on: September 13, 2007, 04:56:39 PM

I'd read/seen this on Digg and thought of negative ping code as well.  :-D The only way I can really see this being viable is to have concentric rings of varying real info/predictability around you. Those in the inner ring get the most updating/no prediction, those in the outer ring get the least updates/most prediction and gradations in between. They were talking about battles involving hundreds if not thousands of players. What struck me funny was they were using Quake 3 as their test bed and Q3 always had the smallest damn maps IMO. Do that with UT and some of the larger maps and show me that it works and we'll talk. I used to play on this one guy's server (Briggsey and his wife Helenski) and he made some damn huge maps. I could see getting around a hundred peeps in some of his best maps and having a good throw down. Q3 never impressed me as a real massive frag fest game.

I was drinking when I wrote this, so sue me if it goes astray.
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Reply #19 on: September 14, 2007, 08:47:08 AM

Uhh, this isn't earth-shattering. Torque already does this (all except the "Guideable AI" part, but they are just talking about smarter interpolation).

In stock Torque Networking, every object has a parameter called "network priority", which controls the order in which it's update gets sent to a particular client. Object are sorted based on the priority they report back to the networking system (and again, that priority is per client), and stock Torque is already configured for FPS games (but can be changed easily).

In the fps reference implementation, net priority is based upon, in order:

--type of object (bullets > players > trees/scenery)
--differential vector (bullets and players "aiming towards you" have higher priority to you than other objects)
--distance

Stock Torque Networking also handles standard interpolation and extrapolation, so what happens in a "crowded system" in effect is this:

--server determines which objects have entered or left scope (networkability) for each client playing
--server iterates over each scoped object (for each client), making an update packet
----objects are pre-sorted based on their net priority, calculated per network cycle
----object's packUpdate methods are called, and stored in the update packet until the packet is filled
----any objects who weren't able to make it into a "filled packet" get their net priority tweaked upwards based on number of packets skipped

--client receives update packet, updates objects
----objects that don't receive updates maneuver based on their programmed interpolation, and extrapolation once they get "ahead" of the most recent update

To make this whole idea worthwhile, it's the "Guided Ai" that is going to make or break it, and only if it's really good--good enough to emulate a human player with by definition out of date game state.

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TripleDES
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Reply #20 on: September 15, 2007, 08:22:39 AM

On top of all the shit posted above, there'll likely be multiple servers at work managing playfields that overlap and send relevant updates to the adjacent ones, again prioritized (the overlap helping smooth playing while allowing the servers some slack for a seamless handover) and probably distance filtered. The only problem that may arise is the same that EVE has, too much players on the same playfield.

EVE (inactive): Deakin Frost -- APB (fukken dead): Kayleigh (on Patriot).
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