Nintendo's impressive achievement.

[Litigator]

So.

NPD sales numbers for games came out.

The XBOX (ONE) version of Madden sold more than the WII version.

Guys. This Wii fad...

is a fucking fad.

Top 20 SKU's
360 MADDEN NFL 08 896.6K
PS2 MADDEN NFL 08 643.6K
360 BIOSHOCK 490.9K
PS3 MADDEN NFL 08 336.2K
WII PLAY W/ REMOTE 256.8K
WII METROID PRIME 3: CORRUPTION 218.1K
WII MARIO STRIKERS: CHARGED 147.4K
PS2 GUITAR HERO 2 W/GUITAR 145.4K
WII MARIO PARTY 8 138.3K
PS2 GUITAR HERO ENCORE: ROCKS THE 80S 127.1K
XBX MADDEN NFL 08
WII MADDEN NFL 08
NDS BRAIN AGE 2: MORE TRAINING IN MINUTES A
360 TWO WORLDS
NDS POKEMON DIAMOND VERSION
NDS HIGH SCHOOL MUSICAL: MAKIN THE CUT
360 GUITAR HERO 2 W/ GUITAR
PSP MADDEN NFL 08
NDS POKEMON PEARL VERSION
360 TIGER WOODS PGA TOUR 08

I lolled hard.

Wii has an old graphics system and poor online support, and the motion controls aren't really that compelling for a football sim that really uses all the buttons on an Xbox control. I don't see how the fact that the sales of Madden are proof of anything. How many Madden gamers have a Wii but no other next gen console? Not that many. But there are a lot of Wii games on that list.

Incidentally, Nintendo stock is at $60. If there is a Fed rate cut this week, it will raise global markets and Nintendo will probably see $75 by christmas. Its quarterly reports have demolished every quarter since DS Lite came out. Nintendo now has a greater market value than Sony. Not the Playstation. More than Sony. And Hiroshi Yamauchi recently became the richest guy in Japan. Fad my ass.

[Murgos]

Uh, the point is, or should be, that the top selling game on 360 is ~3-4x the top Wii seller. Not that it's a battle of Maddens.   

Selling a lot of Wii's is pretty meaningless if they aren't selling Wii games.

[sigil]

Mario Strikers charged has zero slowdown in online play. I play it regularly, my sad record has everything to do with my lack of skill.

Metroid prime plays very well. Control is better than any FPS I've ever encountered on a console. It's not a revolutionary game, but it's one of the better games I've played.

I'm passing on Madden 08, but I will be picking up FIFa 08 and PES 2008.

SSBB will be a Christmas gift for my son, so it will be a bit before I see that one.

SMG will ikely be the same, save for the wife.

But why would you talk about the wii here? Seriously.

[HaemishM]

The Madden for the Wii is hampered by a lot of things, and the more time I own it, the more things I see wrong with it. It's buggy, it's multiplayer is SHIT (tried another game and while there was less lag, there was a great deal of control response lag that totally fucked me), and it's being ignored in after-release support. Next-gen consoles have gotten two offline roster updates, the Wii has gotten fuckall. It's graphics aren't as impressive as the next-gen stuff (obviously). It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that it sells worse than all the other system versions. Both the 360 and PS2 have larger install bases than the Wii (as does the original X-Box) and despite what you guys may think, it IS more of a hardcore game for systems like the PS3.

EA Sports needs to decide if they really WANT to support the Wii, or just half-ass it like Madden 08. If they half-ass the Fifa 08, Peter Moore needs to have a diamond-studded cock shoved up his ass until he tastes the bling.

Selling a lot of Wii's is pretty meaningless if they aren't selling Wii games.

They are selling a lot of Wii games, with an attach rate that is higher than the PS3's.

[Murgos]

They are selling a lot of Wii games, with an attach rate that is higher than the PS3's.

The numbers Schild just produced don't support that claim.  Unless you are just looking at Wii Play sales?

[schild]

If you're counting Wii Play and Wii Sports, you need to count Sixaxis sales. And uhhh, I don't know, copies of the Ballad of Ricky Bobby, which is of course, at least 2 Million.

[HaemishM]

In the top 20, the Wii and the 360 had 5 games, the PS2 had 4 games, the PS3, XBox and PSP each had 1, and the DS had 4. How exactly is that NOT selling a lot of Wii games? Even if you take the WiiPlay out of the equation, they still had as many spots in the top 20 as the PS2, which has an install base of over 100 million. The only sad part about that number is only one of those Wii games is a 3rd party game.

However, those numbers also are likely skewed because they cover the weeks both Bioshock and Madden got released, and you KNOW those games were going to be blockbusters.

[Xanthippe]

I know quite a few parents who are thrilled with the idea of buying a console for their kids that requires body movement.  People who never considered buying a console before are buying Wiis.  The parents are quite looking forward to WiiFit.

Just because it may not appeal primarily to your particular demographic (single young males) does not make it a fad.  Don't forget that the kids growing up with the Wii are going to be driving the game market in the not-so-distant future.

Favorites here: Mario Strikers Charged, Metroid Prime: Corruption, Wii Play, Zelda, Mario Party 8

Getting MySims this week.

The classic games are likewise getting much use.

There are not enough games out for the Wii, and several of those out are crap.  What's new and different about that with a new console system?

[Litigator]

From a business standpoint, Nintendo doesn't need as high an attach rate as other consoles because the hardware is not sold at a loss.

Also, Nintendo will be publishing most of its big games, while Sony and MS will primarily be reaping license fees from their multiplatinum titles.

I think that the software situation on the Wii is primarily an issue of developers not seeing it as a platform for serious development resources. The sheer number of the things sold dictates that there will be some quality software for it, but AAA software doesn't materialize overnight. Metroid is going to generate strong sales through Christmas. Wii Fit will get a lot of attention. Mario looks really good. But it's going to be next Christmas before the third party developers start putting out high quality software on this platform.

I would not offer the Wii as platform upon which a serious gamer can expect to sustain a several-games-a-month habit (or really even a single game-a-month habit). However, there is certainly software on the Wii which no serious gamer would want to miss out on playing.

[schild]

However, there is certainly software on the Wii which no serious gamer would want to miss out on playing.

God how I wish that were still true.

[Sairon]

Also, Nintendo will be publishing most of its big games, while Sony and MS will primarily be reaping license fees from their multiplatinum titles.

I'm fairly certain Sony is larger both as a dev house and publisher than Nintendo. Microsoft is pretty large as a publisher as well iirc.

I'm not suprised at all that the attach rate of the Wii is higher than that of the PS3, after all there's mostly shit to be had on the PS3 atm. Sadly Lair sucked because that seemed to have the potential to become a really nice game. It will be exciting to see how the holiday season will look like, that's when I think the PS3 will start to really accelerate.

[Yegolev]

However, there is certainly software on the Wii which no serious gamer would want to miss out on playing.

God how I wish that were still true.

I know you disagree, but I am going to get MP3 and I'm going to like it.  Other than that, however, it's pretty bleak.

[schild]

http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/gamemode/wi-fi/wi-fi01.html

lolfriendcodes

You can also battle with people you don’t know who are looking for brawls. The most important point here is that you will not know each other’s names.

If you think of your opponent as a simple scarecrow, any psychological barriers may melt away.

Your opponent will not know your name or any information about you, and neither of you can send short messages. There will also be no battle records kept for this mode, so whether you win or lose, it doesn’t matter. Just sit back and play.

Maybe they're making shit like Wii Fit since they don't understand gamers at all anymore. It's not that they're avoiding the hardcore gamer, it's that they have no fucking clue what they are.

[Yegolev]

They are very afraid of the Internet.  Deviants.  Pedophiles.

[Fabricated]

I'm stunned they actually added online play considering what a bitch it had to be to get decent network code for a twitchy 4-player fighting game.

Friend codes I expected, but the anonymous playing with no overt communication I did not. That's almost ballsy for Nintendo since they're awful big on being disgustingly Disney-esque in making 100% sure Dateline doesn't do a Wii-Stalker show.

I was buying smash to play with live people together in front of a single TV myself, so this is merely bonus. I can't wait for it to come out so I never have to buy another Wii title ever again.

[HaemishM]

I'm stunned they actually added online play considering what a bitch it had to be to get decent network code for a twitchy 4-player fighting game.

They already have the decent network code from Mario Strikers, which should require just as much twitchy-ness as Smash Bros.

[schild]

Haemish, about that Smash Bros. vs Mario Strikers - NOT EVEN IN THE LEAST. NOT EVEN CLOSE. COULD NOT BE MORE WRONG.

That is all.

[Fabricated]

I'm stunned they actually added online play considering what a bitch it had to be to get decent network code for a twitchy 4-player fighting game.

They already have the decent network code from Mario Strikers, which should require just as much twitchy-ness as Smash Bros.

I gotta disagree man. Smash is deep enough for tourament-level play on par with that of a lot of 2d fighters with the button glitches and tiers and shit. Even 100ms is too much lag for some stuff in Melee. Me and my friends play at the level where playing on a WAVEBIRD results in a noticible disadvantage.

[schild]

50ms is too much for a fighting game.

[HaemishM]

Have either of you played Mario Strikers? No?

[schild]

It's irrelevant. We know how fighting games work and why multiplayer (for fighters) over the net doesn't work. You're wrong whether we've logged 400 hours or 0 hours.

[HaemishM]

I've forgotten just how right you can be about everything game-related including network code you didn't write and haven't experienced in anyway shape or form.

[schild]

Keep thinking I'm wrong. It's making you look better.

Yes, online soccer is the same as a fighting games.

Durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

 

HaemishM: Man I don't want to sound like a jerk here, but net coding for a fighting game and net coding for ANY other type of game are completely different animals. Mario Strikers having decent net coding at this point in the game is a given. We should be surprised if it was bad, not if it was good. You even attempting to compare the packets being sent and their importance to the current situation int he game are way different. Great net coding for fighting games is almost unheard of, save for stuff running on Killarea and GGPO and the net code on DOA (which is about the only thing that game does right in my opinion) I think that good net code for competitive Smash would be a fucking nightmare. Not at the level of say Guilty Gear (which has moves that require 1-5 frame input windows, running at 60 FPS), or Virtua Fighter or Tekken, (both of which are known to have moves with 1-3 frame input windows for moves, known as the "just frame" moves) but it would be a tough thing to accomplish. So yes, expect a difference in how it runs and how often it will be running lag free. If you think that 4 players sending the silly amount of data that they will be sending while fighting will not have some sort of lag or lose sync in some way is just absurd. Nintendo just doesn't have the experience or know how in my opinion to do this right.

[Velorath]

HaemishM: Man I don't want to sound like a jerk here, but net coding for a fighting game and net coding for ANY other type of game are completely different animals. Mario Strikers having decent net coding at this point in the game is a given. We should be surprised if it was bad, not if it was good. You even attempting to compare the packets being sent and their importance to the current situation int he game are way different. Great net coding for fighting games is almost unheard of, save for stuff running on Killarea and GGPO and the net code on DOA (which is about the only thing that game does right in my opinion) I think that good net code for competitive Smash would be a fucking nightmare. Not at the level of say Guilty Gear (which has moves that require 1-5 frame input windows, running at 60 FPS), or Virtua Fighter or Tekken, (both of which are known to have moves with 1-3 frame input windows for moves, known as the "just frame" moves) but it would be a tough thing to accomplish. So yes, expect a difference in how it runs and how often it will be running lag free. If you think that 4 players sending the silly amount of data that they will be sending while fighting will not have some sort of lag or lose sync in some way is just absurd. Nintendo just doesn't have the experience or know how in my opinion to do this right.

So... how will this affect those of us who aren't completely anal when it comes to fighting games?

[sigil]

Especially since the  move sequences in SSB have been  maybe one direction and a button.

Virtua fighter, it aint.

[Fabricated]

Especially since the  move sequences in SSB have been  maybe one direction and a button.

Virtua fighter, it aint.

A lot of the more complex moves are the button glitches, some of which require obscenely good timing.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

HaemishM: Man I don't want to sound like a jerk here, but net coding for a fighting game and net coding for ANY other type of game are completely different animals. Mario Strikers having decent net coding at this point in the game is a given. We should be surprised if it was bad, not if it was good. You even attempting to compare the packets being sent and their importance to the current situation int he game are way different. Great net coding for fighting games is almost unheard of, save for stuff running on Killarea and GGPO and the net code on DOA (which is about the only thing that game does right in my opinion) I think that good net code for competitive Smash would be a fucking nightmare. Not at the level of say Guilty Gear (which has moves that require 1-5 frame input windows, running at 60 FPS), or Virtua Fighter or Tekken, (both of which are known to have moves with 1-3 frame input windows for moves, known as the "just frame" moves) but it would be a tough thing to accomplish. So yes, expect a difference in how it runs and how often it will be running lag free. If you think that 4 players sending the silly amount of data that they will be sending while fighting will not have some sort of lag or lose sync in some way is just absurd. Nintendo just doesn't have the experience or know how in my opinion to do this right.

So... how will this affect those of us who aren't completely anal when it comes to fighting games?

Perhaps it wont affect you much, but any fighting game only exists as long as the community is willing to play it. And a game that is playable at a intermediate to advanced level has a better chance at sticking around. I think that whether or not Smash has good net code is really not an issue either way, especially here, because not many people here could really give a crap less whether or not lag will affect your ability to L-cancel Falcos short hop lasers, or if it will make the Ice Climbers wobble infinite harder or easier. From what I have heard, Brawl got dumbed down a bit, and maybe this is why. But if that is the case, and the game is truly aimed at an audience who is less "anal" about their fighting games, then that is bad news for Nintendo. People don't keep playing Smash because they enjoy easy, shallow game play. They play it cause it has an incredibly friendly pick-up-and-play low-mid level party brawling game, that turns into a very deep, execution focused fighting experience at high level play. This is  hard thing to accomplish for any fighting game, being ACTUALLY easy to play and ACTUALLY hard to master, AND hold up at a competitive level. Competition is the ONLY reason people keep playing fighting games. It is really important Nintendo doesn't break the formula, cause if they do it can hurt the franchise in the long run.     

Especially since the  move sequences in SSB have been  maybe one direction and a button.

Virtua fighter, it aint.

High level Smash is ALL OVER THE FUCKING PLACE. It really is MVC2 jr. There is a silly amount of stuff happening that you don't see if you are not very knowledgeable about the high-level techniques. There really is a lot more going on than just directional input plus button. This is something that even pro Smash players talk about, not even a jump is just a jump in that game. All the stuff that happens in Smash has always been interesting to me, as an avid fighting game player/designer. This game some how hovers around being both an example of terrible design and foresight as to how the fighting game public will play a game,and absolute genius, masterful competitive fighting game design.

[Fabricated]

I wouldn't mind seeing a handful of the button glitches (wavedashing for one) eliminated and characters (oh...all of Tier 1) nerfed a bit. Tired of fighting people playing Falco and Marth thanks.

[sigil]

So, what percentage of users will be affected by this?

[HAMMER FRENZY]

Sigil: All of them to some degree. If they were to remove the button "glitches" (and they are not glitches, Nintendo knew they were there. This kind of stuff is flagged in script) it would change how a majority of the upper tier characters play, as well as making the lower tier characters more usable, seeing as they are not hindered by a lack of movement options and such. This could be a good idea but also disastrous, as removing a lot of this stuff from the game may over simplify it. This discussion was the topic of many threads at SRK and smash boards. IF a player should always L-cancel a move, and ALL advance players L-cancel ALL their moves, why should L-canceling be there at all? It adds steps to a fundamentally simple concept. The L- cancel is only only cutting recovery on specific jumping moves for specific characters, why aren't those characters moves fixed (shortening the recovery frames on their jumping smash attacks) so that L-canceling is not needed? I think it comes down to further separating the larger intermediate level players from the advanced level players, and the idea is that advanced players should have advanced versions of the same move intermediate players have at the cost of more complicated execution. This is easier than introducing radically new techniques such as jump installed false roman canceling,  (Guilty Gear) or resets and unblockables (Third Strike) or complicated dodge/throw/low punch forced choice situations (Virtua Fighter) and other advanced advanced setups. (Although Smash has a lot of stuff like this too.) I think that  having this abnormally large mid-level player base is a good concept cause it allows the beginner player to move up faster and have a larger competitive player base, while still allowing there to be a high level set of techniques to learn that are not too difficult to comprehend and still accessible to the average player. For example, everyone barfs the first time they see wave dashing and crouch canceling in Smash, but it is something everyone can do with minimal practice, while the same reaction is associated with massive multi-shift combos in KOF XI or huge combos in Guilty Gear, but a sizable amount of practice and execution ability is needed to play at that level. (Smash still had some pretty tough things to execute in play as well)     

Anyway, any kind of homogenization of characters and system design can really take away from a fighting game and make it feel a lot more shallow. I really don't see Nintendo taking out a lot of it, and if they did they would replace it with something else.

[Velorath]

Maybe they're making shit like Wii Fit since they don't understand gamers at all anymore. It's not that they're avoiding the hardcore gamer, it's that they have no fucking clue what they are.

Because Nintendo has never done anything like Wii Fit before.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

Maybe they're making shit like Wii Fit since they don't understand gamers at all anymore. It's not that they're avoiding the hardcore gamer, it's that they have no fucking clue what they are.

Because Nintendo has never done anything like Wii Fit before.

ehhh, in my opinion the fit board falls into the Power Pad category. Nintendo has done the health bit before, just not with so much publicity. The health benefits were something that Nintendo had mentioned numerous times during the Power Pad release, then it released in Japan as the Family Fun Fitness pack, later releasing here with world track meet. Nintendo has been here before.   

[schild]

Green is for sarcasm.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

Oh wow, I really did not know that...