Tabula Rasa, now with no FUN!

[Mrbloodworth]

I am quite sure that most MMO's have the option to turn off floaty numbers. Kinda standard option. 

But why turn something off that helps you?  (knowing exact damages)

Because someone in this thread mentioned they didn't like floaty numbers/damage?

I like to turn off floaty names.

[HaemishM]

Let's summarize.

Pretty world.  Fun short-term combat fix.  Lousy UI.  Meaningless progression. 

Did I miss anything?

Eh? Combat isn't fun though, feels like SW:G at launch only... polished. And uhm, Guild Wars was a pretty world. Parts of WoW were pretty. Tabula Rasa... NOT PRETTY. In fact, it's downright depressing.

What kind of crack are you smoking?

TR feels like what combat should have been at NGE launch, m a y b e.  But no way in hell is it like the typical MMO tab target autofire autoaim of preNGE SWG. 

No it doesn't. It's boring. It's not even a click click clickety click, it's just point at target, tab, click left mouse button with an occasional right mouse button until dead. Keeping the cursor on the target was sort of critical, just not in anyway fun.

[HaemishM]

So now that we've all agreed that TR underwhelms, can we talk about it's "novel" features? There are a few areas where TR claimed to innovate. For the most part, I quit the game too early to really see how well they work.

Improved AI:

Never saw evidence of it. If that's because I didn't play 5-10 hours, the developers FAILED. As has been said before, there aren't 3 MMOG's, there are a shitton. Players don't have time to waste on games that don't give them something pretty damn quickly. Most players can finish a console action/RPG in 10 hours, and they don't have to pay a subscription fee for that.

Cloning:

Great idea, never saw it. That could just be because I didn't play long enough, which means I didn't get far enough along the path to differentiate my character from any other. FAIL.

FPS-like controls:

Poorly done. Nice try, but they did nothing to differentiate this from other MMOG's I've played.

Low downtime:

Doesn't really help if the activities you are always doing are always pretty boring.

I know that I've hammered this before, but when are MMOG developers going to learn that you cannot hold back the good stuff for the second 5-hour stretch? You have got to HOOK the player from the get-go or they won't stay around past the free month (or even the open beta). You have got to WOW them (no pun intended) in 30-minutes or you're done. It's not even a grind issue anymore. I know that you have to keep them for long periods of time to make the subscriptions pay off, but you have to get them to that point. Putting drab content in front of them the first 30? FAIL.

[Der Helm]

Never saw evidence of it. If that's because I didn't play 5-10 hours, the developers FAILED. As has been said before, there aren't 3 MMOG's, there are a shitton. Players don't have time to waste on games that don't give them something pretty damn quickly. Most players can finish a console action/RPG in 10 hours, and they don't have to pay a subscription fee for that.

Just wondering, is it possible that developers take into account that most people who actually PAID for the box are going to play it long enough to "get to the good stuff". I know I would if I had layed down 40-50 bucks for such a game. It is easy to say that you won't play a game that "is not fun in the first X hours", but would you do the same if you actually spended money on it ?
Just wondering.


Disclaimers:
Nonetheless I agree with you.

I know it is not the best publicity for the game, but maybe it is effective (moneywise or other)

[Baldrake]

Just wondering, is it possible that developers take into account that most people who actually PAID for the box are going to play it long enough to "get to the good stuff".

I have games on my shelf that I paid full price for and quit less than five hours in.

(E.g. Gary Grigsby's World at War... wtf was I thinking of???)

[Morat20]

I know that I've hammered this before, but when are MMOG developers going to learn that you cannot hold back the good stuff for the second 5-hour stretch? You have got to HOOK the player from the get-go or they won't stay around past the free month (or even the open beta). You have got to WOW them (no pun intended) in 30-minutes or you're done. It's not even a grind issue anymore. I know that you have to keep them for long periods of time to make the subscriptions pay off, but you have to get them to that point. Putting drab content in front of them the first 30? FAIL.

For the record, WoW's hooks were:

1) Introductory cinematics including swoopy flight over the next 10 hours of your gaming world, showing other players running around.
2) Quick ding-gratz at the beginning, giving you new abilities and tools at just the right pace to let you learn the controls without getting frustrated or bored.
3) Stellar artwork and service -- very stable platform. (Obviously the early queues were ridiculous, but they had that fixed well before it would kill them -- they did have Blizzard mojo to help ease them over that hump.).
4) Huge word of mouth from a smooth beta.

[Nebu]

For the record, WoW's hooks were:

1) Introductory cinematics including swoopy flight over the next 10 hours of your gaming world, showing other players running around.
2) Quick ding-gratz at the beginning, giving you new abilities and tools at just the right pace to let you learn the controls without getting frustrated or bored.
3) Stellar artwork and service -- very stable platform. (Obviously the early queues were ridiculous, but they had that fixed well before it would kill them -- they did have Blizzard mojo to help ease them over that hump.).
4) Huge word of mouth from a smooth beta.

I can't argue with you here with the possible exception of "stellar ... service".  What continues to puzzle me is how all of that can be true and still I found the game to be dull and uninspired from a gameplay standpoint.  If WoW had come out 6 years ago, it would have been my robot jesus.  Now... not so much.  I do get your underlying point though... with all of the examples out there to draw from it's almost criminal that we still see crappy mmogs being released.  TR appears to be another new addition.

[Morat20]

I can't argue with you here with the possible exception of "stellar ... service".  What continues to puzzle me is how all of that can be true and still I found the game to be dull and uninspired from a gameplay standpoint.  If WoW had come out 6 years ago, it would have been my robot jesus.  Now... not so much.  I do get your underlying point though... with all of the examples out there to draw from it's almost criminal that we still see crappy mmogs being released.  TR appears to be another new addition.

Probably because you were bored as shit by the whole DIKU concept, having suffered through the previous incarnations. Most of the people who love WoW, who got hooked so easily, are people who never really got into DIKU.

WoW said "Here's the fun part" from the beginning, in a game designed to run well on modest systems and polished heavily.

It's still DIKU, but it was DIKU without all the shit in the way that came before. Experienced gamers would just shrug at the roadblocks and annoyances of EQ, EQ2, SWG, UO, etc and push through them since they knew what was ahead. Newer players generally just said "Fuck this [buggy/incoherent/boring/grindy/whatever is appropriate] POS" and went and played Halo or something.

[HaemishM]

You forgot that WoW ran well on shitty old systems and TR struggles on my not quite 2-year old system. No one in development seems to get that anymore. It's one of the reasons consoles sell better than PC games.

Also, I played WoW in beta, before there were queues. And I was still hooked by WoW enough to play it up into the teen levels during beta, knowing I'd have to start over at release. After one wipe in TR, I couldn't be arsed to play to level 5. Hell, I'd STILL pay for WoW if I wanted an MMOG, I wouldn't pay a damn dime for TR.

[Morat20]

You forgot that WoW ran well on shitty old systems and TR struggles on my not quite 2-year old system. No one in development seems to get that anymore. It's one of the reasons consoles sell better than PC games.

Yeah -- that is a big deal. I'm not a console fan (my wife is). We have a PS2, a gamecube (my kid's) and are getting a Wii. We don't have an Xbox (the few times I have an urge to play one, I visit a friend.). My PC has always been my gaming platform of choice, especially for FPS (I suck at them enough without having to fight console controls too).

But I'm buying an Xbox 360 as soon as I can afford it (I wand the HD tv to go with it), and rearranging a chunk of my house to get it hooked to the internet (No, I don't want to use wireless. I'm lazy and can't be arsed to upgrade. It's ethernet cables across the ceiling for me), because I'm sick of always feeling my PC just isn't quite good enough for the new shiny. WoW was one of the few games I didn't have that "I wish I had more PC to run this".

Convience is winning out, along with Xbox Live and the fact that I can play Worms on Xbox. :)

It's getting bad enough in the PC world to push me to consoles as a primary games platform, which says a lot. My next PC upgrade will be late next year, at the earliest, and for work -- not games.

[Venkman]

Count the number of MMOs that appear on Consoles.

Nobody argues that one of the nine aspects of WoW's success is that it ran on almost anything that can play Bejeweled. Now list how many modern FPS games (launched since WoW) can make the same claim. TR 2.0 was conceived as a pseudo FPS game, current implementation regardless. Their baseline was not standard-DIKU at the time.

The five-hour-rule is important in any game. But you need to remember the first most important rule is to sell boxes to some companies (because to other companies it doesn't, ie, all those guys who give the client and monthly access away for free). Selling boxes can defray and/or pay off the initial development. I don't know if that's the case for TR though, given the amount of time and money that was spent before the reset.

I like the Xbox 360, particularly XBLA and its integration with Windows Live. I just don't like Vista enough to upgrade to it at home. That's partially keeping me from getting the console, so I just play the one we have at work.

[dEOS]

I didn't play TR and certainly won't but...

What is worse than having a beta with an NDA... with people letting everyone know as soon as your NDA drops that your game sucks ?
I have seen that so many times.

WoW didn't have a NDA during beta as far as I can remember. If you are not confident that you'll get positive reviews from players, never ever enter beta stage. Forcing a NDA on a beta nowadays is basically telling me that the game is going to suck.

[Rendakor]

My thoughts on TR agree with the consensus (meh), however my biggest complaint would have to be the lack of character customization. Everyone starts out shooting and throwing lightning, and after 12 levels I was still shooting and throwing lightning. There's about as much choice available as in WoWs talents. Except everyone is a shaman. And your only non-talent ability is lightning bolt. ZZZzzzz...

[WindupAtheist]

What?

[Yoru]

Someone hit "new topic" instead of "reply", it seems. Fixed.

[Rendakor]

Someone hit "new topic" instead of "reply", it seems. Fixed.

Was that me? Sorry, if so. Posting from a cell phone ftl.

[HaemishM]

Count the number of MMOs that appear on Consoles.

That won't be an issue in 3 years. But the point about consoles was ease of use and standard of playability, not about consoles in particular. But you knew that.

Nobody argues that one of the nine aspects of WoW's success is that it ran on almost anything that can play Bejeweled. Now list how many modern FPS games (launched since WoW) can make the same claim. TR 2.0 was conceived as a pseudo FPS game, current implementation regardless. Their baseline was not standard-DIKU at the time.

Their mistake. I realize FPSes feel the need to pile on the shiny, but for MMOG's in today's market, lack of graceful degradability in performance is a HUGE fucking mistake. It's putting barriers between the player and the subscription, and for a game that was as expensive as TR, took as long to develop and doesn't have WoW's built-in audience, it's suicidal. It's not like the game IS an FPS, it's not even FPS-lite. The player can't dodge, so latency shouldn't be much of an issue. Make the client RUN great first, then look great second. Anything else is less customers who will buy a sub.

[Venkman]

My point about consoles was the same as yours, as they apply to today and stretching back through the life of MMOs. And unless a) keyboards and mice are standards on consoles in 3 years; or, b) an entire generation of millions of kids gleefully adopts VoIP, I highly suspect what persistent world MMOs make it to consoles are not going to be of the variety we here enjoy playing.

Otherwise, we agree on TR as a non-FPS. They may have wanted it to be, and therefore thought maybe they could adopt the push-envelope system specs. Their results though...

[lamaros]

My point about consoles was the same as yours, as they apply to today and stretching back through the life of MMOs. And unless a) keyboards and mice are standards on consoles in 3 years; or, b) an entire generation of millions of kids gleefully adopts VoIP, I highly suspect what persistent world MMOs make it to consoles are not going to be of the variety we here enjoy playing.

Otherwise, we agree on TR as a non-FPS. They may have wanted it to be, and therefore thought maybe they could adopt the push-envelope system specs. Their results though...

While controllers are probably a feature I highly suspect the biggest impediment to MMOs on consoles is that the online aspect is so much more limited, or has been until recent times.

This will change. Consoles will dominate nearly all gaming in the future.

I generally agree with all Haem has said here. I also wince at statements like "the nine aspects of WoW's success" and "the first most important rule"!

I highly suspect what persistent world MMOs make it to consoles are not going to be of the variety we here enjoy playing.

I really really doubt this. The barriers between PC and console gaming will continue to come down into the future. And even if they don't, you're not really in a position to say what types of games 'we' here enjoy playing. Not only do we all have differing tastes but to a certain extent no one knows what games they like playing before they play them unless they're completely derivative. So the chances that console MMOs will be made in the future that you don't like is assuming as much about the way developers go with MMOs as much as it is a statement about consoles themselves.

[sam, an eggplant]

Consoles will dominate nearly all gaming in the future.

Well, you're right and you're wrong. As computer hardware continues to be heavily commoditized, the distinction between computers and consoles will blur and cease to be meaningful. Much like stereo equipment in the 60s compared to the 90s, <$100 will get you something that's good enough to do whatever you want. If you feel the need to spend thousands on an enthusiast rig it'll be available, but the benefit will be increasingly small as time passes.

[bhodi]

As computer hardware continues to be heavily commoditized, the distinction between computers and consoles will blur and cease to be meaningful.

This is something people have been predicting for years, but which shows no inkling of coming to pass. The closest thing we've is being able to play some video on a hacked xbox. Sony's "efforts" in that direction have been token at best.

The game developers like consoles because of hardware/software consistency and reduced pirating. People like consoles because of hardware consistency as well.

Hardware and software customization is at the heart of what makes a PC a PC. There's no possible merging of PC and gaming consoles; they are diametrically opposed.

[sam, an eggplant]

Hardware customization will cease to be meaningful at the consumer level, that's what commoditization means. When hardware is fully commoditized, the console business as it is today will cease to exist, because there won't be any reason for content creators to pay their licensing fees. And no, we're not there yet. This is at least 10 years away.

[Raph]

As computer hardware continues to be heavily commoditized, the distinction between computers and consoles will blur and cease to be meaningful.

This is something people have been predicting for years, but which shows no inkling of coming to pass.

Your consoles in this generation can now:

have logins
connect to online services
browse the Web
download and install software
have a desktop picture
send and receive email
use IM
have a filesystem
serve media
track appointments
play movies
play music
attach peripherals

That's a lot of inklings, to my mind.

[taolurker]

I envision a day when everyone has a commodity box in their living rooms with big brother monitoring them, and also have chips in their wrists too.

Everyone get your tinfoil hats ready.

[Nebu]

I have to confess that I miss the days when online games required you to own a computer and actually know how to use it.  It was like a magical idiot filter. 

[Morat20]

I envision a day when everyone has a commodity box in their living rooms with big brother monitoring them, and also have chips in their wrists too.

Two Words: Microsoft Surface. :)

[Mrbloodworth]

I have to confess that I miss the days when online games required you to own a computer and actually know how to use it.  It was like a magical idiot filter. 

That never worked.

[Nebu]

That never worked.

You should compare general chat channels from early muds to that of WoW.  It was like a completely different world... people used whole words, punctuation and everything.

[Mrbloodworth]

That never worked.

You should compare general chat channels from early muds to that of WoW.  It was like a completely different world... people used whole words, punctuation and everything.

I believe you, but i don't believe the internets or any of its incarnations, or predecessors were devoid of asshats :)

[cmlancas]

Well, with my MUD that had at peak hours close to 100 or so without multiplay, I'd say 5-10 were asshats. So let's say 7.5%. However, as the game went on and more people started dropping off the MUD, there was a greater proportion of asshats. I wonder if this is true of most games.

[Venkman]

While controllers are probably a feature I highly suspect the biggest impediment to MMOs on consoles is that the online aspect is so much more limited, or has been until recent times.

This will change. Consoles will dominate nearly all gaming in the future.

Consoles already do, across many genres. Not all of them though, and as you can see with Microsoft, they are looking to blend the PC and Xbox console in a lot of ways. It's part of their "Anywhere" strategy. Some parts of it are working ok while others not so much, but they're trying.

When I say "we here" about MMOs, I mean folks like those in this thread, including myself, who enjoy DIKU and other worlds with deep immersion, based on where we've been and how that's honed our preferences. Sure that can and will change. And of course I don't speak for anyone but myself. But it's what I see.

Imagine taking any MMO off the shelf and putting it on a console. How would that work? Seriously, the entire UI has to be changed for the console, whether it uses a keyboard/mouse or not. The resolution itself is against you, as is the play environment.

So I said what I did because for MMOs to be relevant on consoles they need to change. And that could include changing their audience. That's not a guarantee of course, since so many here are also console gamers. But it's not as easy and obvious as you amy think. To be honest I look forward to this. Now with HDTV and looking at the 360, I'm finding myself more interested in public social lounge-chair gaming than darkened/headphone gaming.

To me that's the bigger issue. At a technical level there's nothing preventing an MMO on a console. And that was true in the last generation (EQOA, FFXI notably).

[HaemishM]

I have to confess that I miss the days when online games required you to own a computer and actually know how to use it.  It was like a magical idiot filter. 

No, it really wasn't. Idiots own computers too, and know how to use them. Social skills, OTOH, not so much. Sportsmanship, not in a million years.

[Nebu]

I guess I'm thinking back to a time earlier than most of you.  Yes, I realize that idiots are ubiquitous.  In the early, pre-internet online computer world, most people I ran into were either engineers, computer scientists, or students in those fields.  I found that it was far easier to find intelligent conversation than it is now that the PC with an internet connection is far more commonplace.  If you have a different opinion, perhaps our experiences were different.  I just know that the first time I heard the general chat channel in WoW or when I stumbled into VN that I was saddened for the state of humanity. 

[Trippy]

I guess I'm thinking back to a time earlier than most of you.  Yes, I realize that idiots are ubiquitous.  In the early, pre-internet online computer world, most people I ran into were either engineers, computer scientists, or students in those fields.  I found that it was far easier to find intelligent conversation than it is now that the PC with an internet connection is far more commonplace.  If you have a different opinion, perhaps our experiences were different.  I just know that the first time I heard the general chat channel in WoW or when I stumbled into VN that I was saddened for the state of humanity. 

Yup, back when the Internet was "non-commerical" places like Usenet were populated with University people and people from tech companies who were part of the early backbone. And then AOL subscribers got access to Usenet...

[Venkman]

Most of the shit we have nowadays wouldn't be here without commercialization. Is it worth it? Depends on your POV :)