Help me buy an HDTV and configure a Media Center

[Venkman]

You guys were so helpful with my RAZR and last computer purchase, I figured I'd bother you again for an HDTV.

HDTV
I don't want to go crazy, but only because my house isn't that big. When we move, I'll get a bigger one, relegating this one to den/game room. So for now I'm thinking 37" or 40".

I'd like 1080p only because it's the highest resolution, but not if it breaks the $2k barrier.

The higher the contrast ratio, I assume the better. I've seen as high as 15,000:1 these days. This number alone wouldn't be as important to me given the range of such ratios.

I've also seen some newer Sony sets with 10bit color, which I also assume is better, but I actually liked the picture on some Samsung models better which were "only" 8bit.

I'd also like DLP because for some reason it does seem to make a different in what I'm watching.

Two HDMI inputs would be ideal, one for the cable box and one for either a computer or eventual console system.

Finally, Plasma vs LCD?

Media Center
I have an old Alienware box (1.73gHz, 1gb RAM, Radeon 9800pro) that I'd like to convert to a media center if possible. Right now the entire computer is dormant though plays the likes of WoW (and presumably WAR) just fine. DX10 very not ready, so I'll never go beyond XP on it (assuming I ever go beyond XP at all).

How easy/hard is it to convert to a media center PC? I'd love it if I could have a Mac-like fancy UI with a separate remote control. I could do this all much easier with one of those external big-capacity drives with rudimentary OSes on it, but I would rather try and repurpose something I already own.

Thanks!

[Arrrgh]

I'm pre-coffee but I'll wade in.

LCD, Plasma, and DLP are three distinct flavors. You'll need to choose one. I like my DLP.

For 2000 bucks you can get all your looking for in a bigger screen than you're talking about. Are you physically limited by the area you'll be placing the HDTV?

An older PC will choke on 1080p video. As a test just grab the same trailer from apple/trailers in 480, 720, and 1080 and see which one your old PC is happy with. No idea if you can use a bluray/hd-dvd drive on an older PC.

[Murgos]

You can get a 60" 1080P Samsung DLP for less than $2k now.  No point in dorking around if that's your budget and what you like.

[Venkman]

Thanks guys. Just to clarify, I'm thinking 37-42" because of space limitations. I can't physically fit a 60" as much as I would like one :) Next house maybe, when this purchase becomes relegated to the gameroom/den.

And thanks for noting that DLP!=LCD. Good to know.

[Engels]

Anyone got any tips on a Hi Def/Blu ray DVD player for a PC? I've seen a crazy price range, from 400 to 2k, and I have no idea what I should be looking for. Anandtech, sadly, has let me down on this one too.

[Evildrider]

Not sure about for a PC, but if you want a blu-ray just get a Playstation 3.   

[Engels]

The kind of games I favor generally don't port too well to console, so a PS3 or Xbox or whatever would be wasted on me. As such, I need a PC-only Hi Def DVD player. Or will eventually, when video rental places starts to carry them.

[Kitsune]

This is my television and I'm super-duper happy with it.  Big enough to watch across twelve feet of living room without being so big that it was inconvenient to fit in, 1080p, 2 HDMIs, 2 Components, and a VGA port.  One caveat that I found out, though, is no 1080p over component for this TV; you need to use HDMI or VGA if you want to use it at full resolution.

People are occasionally having rough times getting HDMI output to work right from PCs; as usual Ati and nVidia are taking their sweet time putting out drivers that don't suck.  You'll probably have a much easier time if you just use a VGA cable for your PC and ignore the HDMI port.  The only problem with that is that our Hollywood friends have DRM on Blu-ray and HD-DVD that can force a movie to display at a shitty resolution if you don't have a DRM-compliant HDMI connection to the TV.  None of the studios have yet enabled that 'feature' to my knowledge, but they might at a future date, at which point you'd be a bit fucked with that PC.

That's why Microsoft loaded Vista up with DRM, high-def DVD players will only play at full resolution if every link in the chain to the TV supports the DRM.  If Vista didn't have that stuff in there, you couldn't play those disks without the anti-piracy crap kicking in and dropping the resolution on the playback.  Ironically, simply buying pirated movies will get you disks without the DRM and which will play just fine on an unsecure OS, so the message here is that if a consumer doesn't want their movies crippled by anti-piracy safeguards, they should buy the pirated copies.   

[Venkman]

This is my television and I'm super-duper happy with it.  Big enough to watch across twelve feet of living room without being so big that it was inconvenient to fit in, 1080p, 2 HDMIs, 2 Components, and a VGA port.  One caveat that I found out, though, is no 1080p over component for this TV; you need to use HDMI or VGA if you want to use it at full resolution.

I was looking at a few Bravia TVs in Best Buy today. What's the deal with the "Bravia Engine" I saw on the label? There something special about it?

I liked the picture a lot but they were a bit pricey for the sizes at Best Buy. The 40" you linked definitely has the right price.

[Abagadro]

I've been looking to upgrade my TV so have been deep in the avsforums dimension for a couple of months. If you really want to know every minute detail about everything and get so confused you don't end up buying a TV for months, head over there.

Anyways, I'll try to give you my impressions.

It somewhat depends on what you want to do on it mostly and the type of room you are in (i.e., how far away from the set, is it sunny where you will get a lot of glare or dark).  For gaming, LCD is generally better. For movies, plasma is better because of better blacks. For sports, plasma is better because LCD will give you motion blur unless you step up to a 120hz LCD which are just coming onto the market and are premium priced. Plasma will have a bit more glare from ambient light because of the glossier screens. With a 42 inch or smaller set, unless you are going to be sitting 5 feet away from it, 1080p is likely overkill. My recommendation would be either the Panny 42 if you want to go on the cheaper side. They are being severely discounted right now and are really great tvs.  If you really want to step up to 1080p, the 1080p version is also pretty reasonable.  The new generation of Pioneers just came out and are supposed to be spectacular, so if you want to step up a bit, the 4280 is a possibility.

On the LCD side, the consensus seems to be that Samsung  4065F series is a very good set.  Sammy is just rolling out the 81 series however, that uses locally dimming LEDs to get to 100,000 to 1 dynamic contrast ratios. No one has really seen it yet, but people are very excited about it. The 40 incher will likely be around the 2500-2800 range though.

I used amazon links because they are easy to find but you can find lower prices if you hunt around. I also haven't looked at DLP because I was interested in flat-panel and also think the viewing angles on DLP leave something to be desired.

EDIT: Oh, and unless you go up to the XBR Sony sets (and even then according to some), I've read that the price difference up to Sony isn't really justified.

[Venkman]

Nice info! I was thinking I wouldn't get much today due to it being Sunday and all, so am glad I keep checking back :)

The price for that Samsung definitely is right. But I heard a way long time ago that Plasmas had issues with quality degradation over time. This was like 10 years ago though. Are they a safe investment, insofar as not being any better or worse over the long haul than an LCD? I liked the Plasma pictures I saw today.

As to 720p vs 1080p, I'm honestly leaning the latter not due to broadcast signal but because of the eventual BluRay player I'll need to get. I ain't getting it until the final nail is put into the HD-DVD coffin. Even though I do think that's the way this is going, which is what I felt last year too, I'm not that confident ;) It just seemed to me BluRay discs looked better on 1080p at 42 than they did at 720p on 37", but I could just be fooling myself too.

My viewing distance is about 10' and I don't get much glare from the sun.

As to the cutting edge or even premium stuff, that's why I'm staying away from AVSforums :) Come tax return time in 2009, that's when I'll be able to afford a big thing with an IP address built right into it with all the fancy stats you mentioned. Right now I'm looking for consumer-grade.

[Abagadro]

They have pretty good life spans now. Most of the problems that plasmas had have been resolved as long as you break them in properly and don't set them too bright. The newer ones have image retention preventative measures as well as "screen wipes" that allow you to get rid of IR if you end up getting it. They are serious power hogs though compared to LCD.

On the resolution: at 10' on a 40-42 inch screen, you really aren't going to get a big difference between 720p and 1080p. Here is a chart that is pretty well accepted as far as screen size/viewing distance to get the benefits of the different resolutions.

[Venkman]

How do you "break them in"? Just by not setting them too bright? Or is there voodoo?

And thanks for the chart. Didn't even know there was a 1440p. Is this mostly for the big ass screens or is this the eventual standard for everything?

[CmdrSlack]

Interesting chart. If I'm reading it right, with the space we have, I should be able to get a smaller TV (30-32" tops) and maybe not even need/benefit from the higher resolutions. Heck, it looks like we'd barely even notice 720p.

So maybe I can afford HD since buying the hugenormous whizbang ones are out of the question for the room in which the TV would live.

[Arrrgh]

That chart is about videos. If you're using it as a large computer monitor (text, games, whatnot) you'll notice the difference between resolutions regardless of distance.

[CmdrSlack]

But for simply TV viewing and XBox360 playing, that chart is good enough?

[Venkman]

My in-laws have a Samsung 32" HDTV 720p with an Xbox 360 hooked up to it. It looks fantastic even sitting on the floor in front of it playing Viva Pinata with my daughter.

The only thing that would bother me would be playing a icon-heavy/text-heavy game like a PC-based MMO, due to my expectations set by 1920x1080 (or thereabouts)resolution on PC. Since console games have for years been designed for normal CRTs, I suspect anything short of a crazy-rez PS3 game is going to be fine on 720p at that size.

[JoeTF]

Check out this cool NHK whitepaper that explains why hdtv sucks and what is proper resolution for given distance and TV size.
EDIT:
forgot the link ;-)
http://www.nhk.or.jp/digital/en/technical/pdf/02_1_1.pdf

[Krakrok]

For a DLP I'd go with something like the 'Samsung HLT5087S 50" Slim LED Engine 1080p DLP HDTV'. Amazon @ $1654. With a LED light you won't have any lamp burnout problems (theoretically). However, with my DLP projector sometimes we get headaches if we watch it on fast forward.

For a LCD I'd go with a 'Westinghouse 47" 1080p Flat-Panel LCD HDTV'. Best Buy @ $1349. The 42" is $1079.

[Viin]

Interesting chart. If I'm reading it right, with the space we have, I should be able to get a smaller TV (30-32" tops) and maybe not even need/benefit from the higher resolutions. Heck, it looks like we'd barely even notice 720p.

Yah, same for me. But try to find a good HDTV under 40"!

[Arrrgh]

But for simply TV viewing and XBox360 playing, that chart is good enough?

Sure, 360 games are usually good about having easy to read fonts.

[Abagadro]

How do you "break them in"? Just by not setting them too bright? Or is there voodoo?

And thanks for the chart. Didn't even know there was a 1440p. Is this mostly for the big ass screens or is this the eventual standard for everything?

You turn down the brightness and run full-screen, non-static image stuff on them for the first 200 hours or so. You can pick up a DVD that you can run that will work.

[Lt.Dan]

Don't get 1080p just because it's the highest resolution - this isn't a PC we're talking about.

Do some research on viewing distance relative to screen size.  Generally speaking, you would need to sit closer than 2-3 times the diagonal measurement of the screen for your eyes to even notice the difference.  So for a 37-42" screen you'd need to sit closer than about 6-8 feet :P

You'll also need to evaluate what HD content you plan on watching.  For me there is no way I can upgrade my DVD library to HD (since I have about 200 movies, mainly 60s through 80s) and HD TV content in Australia is predominantly 720p.  So for me 1080p makes no sense. YMMV.  PS3 or 360 might change this but viewing distance rules here too.

I've been shopping around for a 720p screen and have come down to one of the Sony 'V' series, Pioneer 427 series, or the Panasonic 70A or 700A.  These model numbers almost definitely differ from those available in the US so I haven't provided a link.  I'd expect that you'd come well under budget on all these.

Defintely spend the time reading the AV forums - especially posts about viewing distance.

[hal]

It is all good and please keep at it I want to everyones options. What about the media center? What vid card, what codex's? You gonna burn it to dvd or hd for the lazy? What ya gonna do?

[schild]

Vizio 47" 1080p LCD. You'll have enough money left to upgrade whatever you want.

[Venkman]

Vizio? Westinghouse? I've seen these brands at BB, but sorta brushed em off. Maybe wrongly? I assume you're recommending them because they're good quality TVs at least like any other, I just haven't ever heard of them in TVs before. I saw the Westinghouse 42" for around the $1079 Krakrok mentioned. Can't remember if it was full 1080p though.

And thanks Lt.Dan. The earlier chart was helpful, as was your viewing distance thing. I won't be upgrading my DVDs to high-def anytime soon, and while I noted Blu Ray, I really don't give a crap about this next (last) gen format. I expect to be watching broadcast HD and whatever I stream down from wherever, so will look at the signal.

On the Alienware box I want to convert to a media center, if it doesn't do the trick, I'll get something else :)

You turn down the brightness and run full-screen, non-static image stuff on them for the first 200 hours or so. You can pick up a DVD that you can run that will work.

This is interesting. What benefits do Plasma provide that would compel something to bother with this sort of extra work, and/or risk having something go wrong if they didn't? Is the image quality that much more noticeable to a Mr Average like me? Is it a pricepoint thing? I care about my equipment and all, I just haven't heard my generation ever spending any real time with what is normally just something you buy at Circuit City, bring home, plug in, and turn on. This sounds like the realm of someone who's got calipers to ensure maximal alignment on their turn table ;)

[schild]

Vizio is a company out of California using mostly top end parts. Westinghouse and such are purely budget brands. I'm not sure how Vizio does it, but both of mine have been fantastic.

Enough people were at the f13 gettogether that saw stuff like Folklore and such on it that I don't even need to back up my word. They can.

[hal]

Westinghouse TV are good and cheep. I am sure there are better but the feel from the community is good and cheep. As in good value. If you want better then fine. The question was "tell me more about the media center". The PC , the storage, And for gods sake "THE VID CARD" you gotta drive that bad boy with something.

[Lt.Dan]

What benefits do Plasma provide that would compel something to bother with this sort of extra work, and/or risk having something go wrong if they didn't? Is the image quality that much more noticeable to a Mr Average like me? Is it a pricepoint thing? I care about my equipment and all, I just haven't heard my generation ever spending any real time with what is normally just something you buy at Circuit City, bring home, plug in, and turn on. This sounds like the realm of someone who's got calipers to ensure maximal alignment on their turn table ;)

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder so go with what you think looks better.  Plasma screens generally have better quality black (ie better definition of the stuff in shadow) and supposedly better fast action (ie sport).  Product stats aren't always the best indication since providers (surprise, surprise) are starting to game these.  So trust your eyeballs and make sure you get to play around with the contrast and brightness in the store so you can compare screens how you'd set it up.   

Oh, and the other advantage of plasma is that they tend to come with a glass front - very important if you have young kids who like to hit/throw things.

[Abagadro]

No one is broadcasting or streaming 1080p. It's too big.  The CW seems to be that it will be a long time before anyone broadcasts 1080p stuff. The only real reason to get it is for HD-DVD or Blu-Ray. A 720p set will downscale those sources to its own resolution just fine though.

The reason why you would put up with that with plasma is that the picture for TV or movies (as opposed to gaming) is just better than the LCD (and at a lower price per inch, but at 720p which doesn't matter for most). Blacks on LCD's are more gray than black because of how they work although the newer sets are working on that (like the locally dimming LED sets I mentioned earlier). You also get much more motion blur on LCDs that run below 120hz (i.e. almost all of them).  LCDs are also prone to "pillars," "banding" and "clouds" which are areas that show up like bars or blobs of off-color sections of the LCD. Some brands are worse than others. The Sharp's are notorious for this.

It's really not that big of an imposition to break it in. You just need to pay attention to what is playing and not watch 4:3 stuff (you stretch it) or play games with static images. Even then if you do that you can usually "wash" the screen.

There probably isn't a huge, huge difference between the two formats from a casual perspective. They both have pros-and-cons and it depends on the usage/type of room and looking closely at the brand you are going for.

[CmdrSlack]

I'm thinking that I'm in a pretty lowish price bracket, so have been looking at the smaller tube HDs. I'm not 100% sure this shelving system will hold a TV much beyond 30", and I can find stuff in the 27" to 32" range for 450-550. I'm currently using a SD 20" widescreen tube setup and it's fine, but the R/W/Y inputs on it are hosed for my PS2. I still want to get a 360, so it seems that I'm stuck buying a tube set unless I want to save for a flat set....

Is there any real reason to go with the flat screen models besides form factor? I'd like to finally get a 360, and a price tag above the mid 500s is going to be tough to sell to the wife.

Her take on it is, "Well, this TV works just fine, so why fuck around?" (her exact words, TBH)

So yeah, help me get a slightly nicer TV (35") without worrying about the tensile strength of this shelving system we currently use for our main wall in the living room.

[Lt.Dan]

Her take on it is, "Well, this TV works just fine, so why fuck around?" (her exact words, TBH)

I had this conversation too :)  After some discussion my wife's only real issue was that she thought a big TV would look ugly.  So now we're getting a cabinet to hide it :P 

She was also really turned around by seeing one at a friends house.  Nice to watch and didn't look as ugly as she thought.

[pants]

Her take on it is, "Well, this TV works just fine, so why fuck around?" (her exact words, TBH)

I had this conversation too :) 

Ironically, my wife is the one who raised with us the idea of getting a flatscreen for our new house.  Unfortunately, that got me thinking about the home entertainment system in general, and how my 7 year old 5.1-in-a-box really aint that crash hot, and how I should upgrade my sound system.  That one is proving a harder sell (Im having to deal with 'Why change the stereo?  Sound comes out - what else do you want?').  And I haven't even dared mention how much decent speakers cost...

[schild]

Westinghouse TV are good and cheep. I am sure there are better but the feel from the community is good and cheep. As in good value. If you want better then fine. The question was "tell me more about the media center". The PC , the storage, And for gods sake "THE VID CARD" you gotta drive that bad boy with something.

Well, that's where Vizio comes in. Vizio is better and in the EXACT SAME price range.

[Kitsune]

Do not heed that chart if you mean to do anything videogameish on the TV.  I can very easily discern the difference between 720p and 1080p on my 40-inch TV from twelve feet away, it's every bit as obvious as the difference between 800x600 and 1024x768 on a 17" monitor.  720p games still have some jaggies, while 1080p is utterly razor sharp.

For video, yeah, the difference is much less marked.  Unless you paused a movie, you'd be hard-pressed to pick out the difference.  And broadcast HDTV is only 720p or 1080i due to bandwidth constraints, so that's not even a factor.

And as for the 'Bravia engine', it's just marketing-speak for image processing that is supposed to make the picture brighter, but which actually makes it look like crap and needs to be disabled if you want the picture to actually look good.