Relatively new site on MMOG theory and design.

[Murgos]

Eve's Devs planned everything?  Have you even followed that game?  Have you seen the many community uproars as a result of meta gaming relationships with devs, player owned banks, and other things that really have never before occurred in an MMOG environment?  You've got to be insane to make a statement like that.

I'm not sure how you read what I said and managed to twist it into that bit of retardery.  I said that the actors in the eve meta-game are conscious of their behavior and act in a directed manner within a framework that was created for exactly that purpose.  Last time with the classic examples, birds flocking, their combined individual behaviors make for an emergent complex behavior.  IF the chief bird sqwaks, "Alright!  Everyone turn left!" and all the birds turn left it's not emergence.

You are very confused if you really think cheating and scandal is evidence of emergence.

[Venkman]

Oh and I missed the part about things that "really have never before occurred in an MMOG environment". That's merely a lack of scope, not a lack of actual occurrence.

Maybe CCP didn't plan for the relationship between Devs and some ubers, but the entire Eve experience, from client to development, is as fertile ground for abuse as any other game (like, say, the recent issue where a PvE character was moved to a PvP server in WoW, or the volunteer program from UO, etc).

Scope != Actual

But we don't need to devolve into a history lesson in this thread. :)

[Arthur_Parker]

It's a terrible shame that you fill in the holes in your arguments with blatant personal attacks and insults.

One of your arguments is that Blizzard supports communism?

[Merusk]

It's a terrible shame that you fill in the holes in your arguments with blatant personal attacks and insults.

One of your arguments is that Blizzard supports communism?

That was hilarious.

[Lindorn]

You are very confused if you really think cheating and scandal is evidence of emergence.

It is gameplay that was not intended by the developers....therefore emergence.  whether you like it or not it fits the definition.

One of your arguments is that Blizzard supports communism?

I am sure that communism would seem to be the point of that blog to someone who lacks reading comprehension.

[Lindorn]

Oh and I missed the part about things that "really have never before occurred in an MMOG environment". That's merely a lack of scope, not a lack of actual occurrence.

I disagree no game to date has actually approached ruination as a result of large amounts of emergent events other than Eve.  They are actually flying people out to Iceland now to audit CCP games to avoid any more massive community panics as a result of misconduct....tell me when this has occurred before?

Thanks for the tangible contribution to the discussion btw Darniaq, seriously I appreciate it.

[Venkman]

You're welcome :) And in that spirit, I need to point out the rather long and inglorious history of CSR disasters that were a part of the earlier days of this genre and its precursors. Eve is not unique in having to deal with imagined or real uprisings due to perceived or real abuses. It's more poignant now because the genre is much more populous with a lot more people who haven't been around since the beginning, but that's just a question of scale.

Some of this stuff actually brought real legal action, not just the spin of Eve and them finally recognizing the lack of their own skills on the dev team in macroeconomics.

List in a bit. Family duties :) For now, look up UO volunteer program, Blacksnow, anything involving Second Life.

[Lindorn]

Yea I've been reading about this child porn thing with Second Life.  That's a huge example right there.

[Venkman]

SL's a good example of an environment specifically designed to let players do whatever they want (within the confines of the toolset) and letting them "own" it after a fashion. It's really more a platform than a "game" per se, so wouldn't really come close to "emergent". It just is.

The Blacksnow thing is more interesting in my opinion. We'd need the resident counselors to explain it better. But iirc, Blacksnow sued Mythic Entertainment because the latter group banned employees of the former group for RMTing. Blacksnow thought they could get reinstated or some such because their livelihood was shut down. It was a pretty quick case of course.

But what I find interesting is RMTing in general. Long tradition of gaining virtual goods and selling them for real cash. There's pretty much always been a market for such in games that allow inter-player trading. That could be considered "emergent", as it is an unintended consequence of tools given players in a game and wasn't really planned for. But nowadays there's a whole segment of the genre that does plan for it. They just call it micro-transactions. And that practice is pretty old, just previously relegated to a portion of the world that many in the West (including myself at the time) didn't consider.

[schild]

Yea I've been reading about this child porn thing with Second Life.  That's a huge example right there.

See, this is bullshit.

Developers who don't figure out what players will do, especially in a world where 4chan, not4chan, 7chan, somethingawful, and YTMND exist just means that developers aren't in touch with what the hell is going on.

Your definition of emergent is silly to me simply because developer's not expecting something is their fault.

The first thing I thought of when I heard of Second Life was 900 foot tall dildos and a land where furries could roam unchecked (they should be tagged like dolphins, imo). Child porn probably would have been 4th or 5th on my list before the game even hit beta.

There's something to be said about expecting the worst from people when you give them the freedom to make their own content.

That said, even in Eve they should have expected what they're getting with staff members in regular guilds and politics set up as they were.

It's not emergent gameplay, it's just not the IDEAL developers had come up with.

Back a few pages when I said "it's people doing STUFF, regular stuff," I should have been more clear and included the fact that it's on the internet. So, regular stuff becomes amplified to fucked up stuff that would get you punched in the face in real life but brings out the epic lulz on the internet.

[Amaron]

Yea I've been reading about this child porn thing with Second Life.  That's a huge example right there.

Huge?  How is it huge?  I thought they were just trading stuff and using Second Life as a chat room/forum to meet each other?  Isn't it the same shit that's been going on in IRC for like forever?

[Lindorn]

Developers who don't figure out what players will do, especially in a world where 4chan, not4chan, 7chan, somethingawful, and YTMND exist just means that developers aren't in touch with what the hell is going on.

I wouldn't argue with you on this in a million years.  I think you are 1000% correct here.

Schild we are on the same page here, I'm just not coming at this from the angle you think I am.  Emergence is just a word used to describe something that happens beyond the intents of the developers.  Meaning "we'll make this open forum area in Ironforge so that people can hold weddings and whatnot in a cool open space", is not happening, rather they just put it there for looks.  I'm just throwing at a random example that doesn't happen to be real in this case.

I'm not saying developers shouldn't expect this stuff....hell most of the things I discuss and write are wishing that developers would be far more aware of the deeper consequences of their design choices, however regardless of whether or not developers are, or should be more aware of what is or could happen in their worlds, anything that happens to use a certain set of tools from their design set that ends up resulting in something they didn't intent....is emergence.  That's all I'm saying.

That said, even in Eve they should have expected what they're getting with staff members in regular guilds and politics set up as they were.

This is sort of misleading though....there isn't really a political system "implemented" in Eve per se.  I mean honestly at the time Eve was released (shortly after SB) all they had to really go off of as far as what to expect in an environment similar to this was what had happened in their own beta (or maybe Shadowbane's)...so while they did put the tools there to encourage this...there is no way they could have anciticpated completely what happened.

Unless you want to argue that they should have read up on politics, history, economics, and sociology to predict the human behavior beforehand.  I would agree with you on this btw, but unfortunately a lot of the problem is most developers don't get involved much in the academic side of things...if they did I think we'd see more complex virtual worlds than ones available today in the mainstream.

[schild]

Having a word to describe the tunnel-vision of developers is sickening to me. That pretty much sums it up.

[Lindorn]

Huge?  How is it huge?  I thought they were just trading stuff and using Second Life as a chat room/forum to meet each other?  Isn't it the same shit that's been going on in IRC for like forever?

It's a huge example of emergence....again emergence isn't some complicated theoretical fringe concept....it's pretty simple.  Of course anyone would slap their head and think "duh" but it still serves the discussion.....I don't think I or anyone else here talking about emergence meant to convey it as if it's some crazy ass "super new" concept....it's only being discussed now because everyone jumped on my ass the moment I mentioned it.....people jumping on my ass has been responsible for the direction of this discussion since the getgo :p.  Not that I mind, it's been a great one minus the insults.

[schild]

Not that I mind, it's been a great one minus the insults.

Fuck man, what did I say back there, stop doing that shit. Fuck.

[Lindorn]

Having a word to describe the tunnel-vision of developers is sickening to me. That pretty much sums it up.

Well the term goes back to the MUD says honestly, back when these things were fresh and new.  I agree that virtual worlds have gotten to a point now that you'd think more of this would be taken into account, but it isn't unfortunately.  I used the phrase to convey a point about MMOG theory, trust me when I say I'm the first one to open my mouth about people in the gaming industry not "thinking ahead" about the results of their design concepts.  I'm just as much a disgruntled MMOG'er as the next guy....

[Lindorn]

Fuck man, what did I say back there, stop doing that shit. Fuck.

Sorry man I've got an ego too believe it or not, and making comments like that is the best way to get it off my chest without firing right back with shit on the same level... so unless you'd rather I just feed the flame with my own illogical and immature bullshit, let's just call it even dude.

[Venkman]

Yea I've been reading about this child porn thing with Second Life.  That's a huge example right there.

See, this is bullshit.

Developers who don't figure out what players will do, especially in a world where 4chan, not4chan, 7chan, somethingawful, and YTMND exist just means that developers aren't in touch with what the hell is going on.

LL was not designing a game. They designed a collaberative CAD environment. They didn't think that shit through any more than Alias thought through some of the movies and games their Maya studio would contribute to. And LL tries to absolve itself by saying the residents own their creations (IP and licensing and all), because SL is a tool.

But everything you say is correct when it applies to game development. The times "emergence" is used is usually fairly innocuous, like the examples mentioned earlier. The darker side (ala that LambdaMOO incident) is unfortunately categorized in the same fashion. It's nigh impossible to use that as an excuse anymore though, and it sickens me as well when or if it is.

This isn't an aspersion on the whole genre though. You can get this kinda shit from any game with any amount of player control in it.

[lamaros]

One of your arguments is that Blizzard supports communism?

I am sure that communism would seem to be the point of that blog to someone who lacks reading comprehension.

Perhaps you can give lessons.

Lesson 1:

Learn when you're being lead to make a fool of yourself.

Lesson 2:

Re-learn when you're being lead to make a fool of yourself.

Lesson 3:

Re-learn when you're ...


You probably see where this is going by now. That's because you have excellent reading comprehension. Please explain the finer points for the other forum readers though.

[Murgos]

You are very confused if you really think cheating and scandal is evidence of emergence.

It is gameplay that was not intended by the developers....therefore emergence.  whether you like it or not it fits the definition.

Unintended behavior is unintended behavior, emergence is something else.  The definition, with examples, has been posted several times now.

[Amaron]

It's a huge example of emergence....again emergence isn't some complicated theoretical fringe concept....it's pretty simple.

Ok I wasn't going to rag on you like the others but that's fucking bullshit.   Pediophiles gathering in graphical chat rooms and chatting about their sick perversion isn't fucking emergence.   Even if it's fucking sick and it happened unintentionally it's not an emerging factor of the games different systems.

[Lindorn]

Of course it's sick....and I have to say Second Life hardly even classifies as a game so you can't really consider it gameplay of any form.  Again though, the definition of Emergence is on Wikipedia...that's the definition I'm using.  Sorry if we don't agree.

You probably see where this is going by now. That's because you have excellent reading comprehension. Please explain the finer points for the other forum readers though.

Your entire argument assumes that I care whether or not I'm being "lead".  Do you honestly think I didn't consider the possibility that I was getting jerked around after several pages of downright belittlement and insults?  Give me a break man.  I decided that if there was even a 1% chance that the guy was asking a serious question I'd put forward a reasonable answer.  Why?  Because I'd think it's pretty evident by now that whether or not I have the approval of the more vicious among you is neither here nor there for me.  If there is one person that wants to have a good discussion about game design then I'll have it with them.

You started by criticizing something I wrote in a way that frankly didn't even make sense, then when I respond you bring up something completely unrelated that if I really cared about, I probably wouldn't be here.  Is that honestly the best you can do?  This is schoolyard stuff now.

[Arthur_Parker]

Do you honestly think I didn't consider the possibility that I was getting jerked around after several pages of downright belittlement and insults?  Give me a break man.  I decided that if there was even a 1% chance that the guy was asking a serious question I'd put forward a reasonable answer.  Why?  Because I'd think it's pretty evident by now that whether or not I have the approval of the more vicious among you is neither here nor there for me.  If there is one person that wants to have a good discussion about game design then I'll have it with them.

You started by criticizing something I wrote in a way that frankly didn't even make sense, then when I respond you bring up something completely unrelated that if I really cared about, I probably wouldn't be here.  Is that honestly the best you can do?  This is schoolyard stuff now.

What did you expect to happen?  You and Mayson have been linking that shitty website of yours all over the net, even trying to get friendly guilds to inflate your digg rating.  I also notice you have been critical of mmorpg.com, WoW & UO in various places but that doesn't seem to stop you advertising yourself to UO players, wow players and posters at mmorpg.com.

There's nothing wrong with being a film student and saying you want a job in the game industry, but you don't have to be so desperate about it.

[schild]

If there is one person that wants to have a good discussion about game design then I'll have it with them.

I don't think you know enough about development to have that conversation.

[Lindorn]

I also notice you have been critical of mmorpg.com, WoW & UO in various places but that doesn't seem to stop you advertising yourself to UO players, wow players and posters at mmorpg.com.

I don't think I've had one sore word to say about UO...ever...in fact I think it get's shortchanged all too often.  I make my issues with WoW and MMORPG.com known, but how does that relate to the people who play WoW...or who frequent MMORPG.com?  Hell I still post regularly on MMORPG.com...I may not like their journalistic style but that doesn't mean I hate them as individuals.  I guess I don't see where you are going with this.

Degaming...is my website man....ugh.

And the stratics post was only posted in response to a discussion that regarded ideas similar to the things we talk about on our site....so what surprises you there?

There's nothing wrong with being a film student and saying you want a job in the game industry, but you don't have to be so desperate about it.

What does my personal life have to do with any of this?  You don't see the irony in calling me desperate and then bringing up things about me personally that have no bearing on the discussion whatsoever?

If you find our site to be shitty....don't go to it.  I fail to see how it affects you in any way shape or form.

I don't think you know enough about development to have that conversation.

That's ok Schild...I'm almost at the point where I'm ready to cut my losses and move on.  You won't have to deal with me for much longer.

[lamaros]

The fact you think that there is some kind of discussion taking place here other than how you're a bit silly, let alone that you are making a positive contribution to it, is just why no one will care if you stop coming here. And don't go out in a blaze of ego when/if your leaving does take place.

[Lindorn]

The fact you think that there is some kind of discussion taking place here other than how you're a bit silly, let alone that you are making a positive contribution to it, is just why no one will care if you stop coming here. And don't go out in a blaze of ego, just go.

I understand, and I won't.

[lamaros]

The fact you think that there is some kind of discussion taking place here other than how you're a bit silly, let alone that you are making a positive contribution to it, is just why no one will care if you stop coming here. And don't go out in a blaze of ego, just go.

I understand, and I won't.

Aw, you foiled my slightly nicer ninja edit.

[Lindorn]

Aw, you foiled my slightly nicer ninja edit.

Lol, late night posting has me hot on the refresh button.

[Ironwood]

It's a terrible shame that you fill in the holes in your arguments with blatant personal attacks and insults.

One of your arguments is that Blizzard supports communism?

That was the worst several paragraphs of wrong I've read for a while.

Just...wrong.

[Venkman]

Lindorn, you won't change minds by over-explaining yourself. If you stick with your opinion and ignore the derails, good conversation can happen. As long as you're not cross-selling your site :)

[Glazius]

It's a huge example of emergence....again emergence isn't some complicated theoretical fringe concept....it's pretty simple. 

Actually, emergence is a pretty complicated theoretical fringe concept, as far as concepts go, because it contradicts everything we first learn about the world.

Humans live their life inside their own stories. Stories have a beginning and an end and a chain of events connecting the two. Often, they have a protagonist or at least a motive force, and they have distinct elements.

Emergence contrarily has no beginning or end. The processes go on continuously, and don't so much stop as reach equilibrium. There is no motive force, and no distinction - every element of an emergent process has to be the same and act in the same way.

Emergence is not the same as surprise. Child porn in Second Life may have come as a surprise, but it's not an emergent activity. Second Life was not a collection of identical people with identical motives interacting identically and then suddenly child porn popped up like Venus out of a clamshell.

You want to talk about emergence in online games? Look at traffic patterns. Foot traffic patterns. Over in WoW, Darnassus is a ghost town and the city in the 60-70 zone is bustling, even though they offer the same services. Why? Not because guild leaders said "move or you're kicked", but because people with mostly identical thought processes and capabilities for action all decided on their own to go there.

[Stephen Zepp]

I think people are drifting pretty far from the base discussion--the term that was used was "social based emergent gameplay" (emphasis mine).

At least somewhat different from emergent behavior.

Let me ask a different question: Was the origins of RMT a "surprise", or an emergent event (behavior, gameplay, whatever--don't want to focus on that particular aspect of the definition for this question).

[Ironwood]

What ?

Over in WoW, Darnassus is a ghost town and the city in the 60-70 zone is bustling, even though they offer the same services. Why? Not because guild leaders said "move or you're kicked", but because people with mostly identical thought processes and capabilities for action all decided on their own to go there.

That's Rubbish.

[Morat20]

What ?

Over in WoW, Darnassus is a ghost town and the city in the 60-70 zone is bustling, even though they offer the same services. Why? Not because guild leaders said "move or you're kicked", but because people with mostly identical thought processes and capabilities for action all decided on their own to go there.

That's Rubbish.

No kidding. Everyone binds in Shattrah because then you can get everywhere in Outland without hassling with the Dark Portal AND it has portals to all three main cities in the Azeroth.

Everyone was in IF prior to the AH-linking because they had the Auction House -- it's not emergent, it's just how it happened.

Now, things like DK point systems and mob-queuing (people actually creating lines to handle a needed spawn in order) are more interested, but I don't know if those count as emergent.