teh cuteness

[Kenrick]

Kenrick got a new puppy this weekend.

So this is my first venture into puppy parenthood... mom and dad never let me have one when I was under their roof.  He's a 2-month-old West Highland White Terrier (a.k.a. a Westie).  Good sturdy scottish breed.  :)

Anyone have any advice or tips for the first time puppy owner?  He seems to be doing pretty well so far.  Just sleeps a whole lot and goes to the bathroom (usually whe he's supposed to).

Thanks!

[schild]

That's a cute puppy. Congrats.

[Abagadro]

Go trade him in for a real dog.



j/k

[Big Gulp]

Anyone have any advice or tips for the first time puppy owner?  

When it comes time for him to switch to hard food don't wuss out.  Set out a bowl of food and eventually he'll eat it.  Not saying he won't be hungry, but this is a tough love kind of thing to break them out of the habit of eating expensive-ass Alpo, and besides it's better for their teeth.

Since he's not housebroken yet baby gates are pretty much a must.  Keep him in a small tiled room while you're gone for the day, and make sure you put his nose near any messes with a swat on the butt and a loud "No!"  Also, don't be one of those assholes who leave their dog outside all the damned time.  For one thing, it's lonely for 'em, and for another they can get heartworm really easily from mosquitos.  Other than that, enjoy your dog.

[Shmtur]

Keep him in a small tiled room while you're gone for the day, and make sure you put his nose near any messes with a swat on the butt and a loud "No!"

This doesn't work.  To punish the dog for making a mess inside the house, you have to catch the dog in the act and punish it at that time.

Punish the dog by rubbing his nose in it later, and all he's gonna think is "Why is he rubbing my nose in this, and why is he hitting me?"

[Big Gulp]

This doesn't work.  To punish the dog for making a mess inside the house, you have to catch the dog in the act and punish it at that time.

I'm admittedly not a dog psychologist, but I have had around 10 dogs in my life so far.  Done this with every one of them and they've all been housebroken.  Now that may be coincidental, but if it ain't broke don't fix it as far as I'm concerned.

[Rodent]

I've heard it said time and time again that a dog has so short memory it won't understand why you're punishing it if you don't catch it in the act.

That being said I would have to side with Big Gulp here, it has worked for me aswell. All my dogs were housebroken. Granted I've only had 3, but still.

[Zaphkiel]

Anyone have any advice or tips for the first time puppy owner?  Thanks!

   Couple things.  Keep in mind that a small dog like that isn't sturdy.  If  you are going to swat him on the butt for peeing in the house ( and I'm not taking sides on that one )  do it very gently.  Make noise, but don't use force.  Making the dog fear you isn't in your best long term interest.
Respect, yes.  Fear, no.  
   If your dog does go in the house, make sure you clean it up well.  If they can still smell it, they will go there again.  And again.  My prefered method is to keep them in a crate or dog house (something big enough for them to walk around in) at night, and then take them outside immediately when you let them out.  This will get them in the habit of going outside.  A little positive reinforcement when they do usually does the job.  
    If you can possibly avoid it, don't leave the puppy alone for more than 4 or 5 hours at a time.

[Merusk]

I've heard it said time and time again that a dog has so short memory it won't understand why you're punishing it if you don't catch it in the act.

That being said I would have to side with Big Gulp here, it has worked for me aswell. All my dogs were housebroken. Granted I've only had 3, but still.

If a dog's memory was that short, it wouldn't remember command words, and would be worthless as anything other than decoration.  Like birds, useless screeching fuckers that they are.

[Abagadro]

You will get a lot farther with positive reinforcement than negative reinforcement. First, you need to decide if you are going to crate train him. If so, get a good book on it and follow its advice.  It's a good method, particularly if you are going to leave him alone for long periods of time.

If not, put down pads in places where he is likely to go, keep gradually reducing the area of the pads in the direction of outside and try to get him to go exclusively on the pads, mostly by moving him onto them when he looks like he is going.  The "nose in the shit" method really isn't very good.  It's not that dogs don't have "memory," is that they don't have a real good sense of causality beyond the immediate. It will stop something it is doing if you catch it and tell him "NO!" as he will then associate bad things with it, thereby altering its behavior into things where it is praised.  But getting mad at it later from something it did 20 minutes ago has no causal connection in its mind.

If you see he needs to go, take him outside and praise the hell out of him when he goes and give him a treat.

[Sable Blaze]

Actually, that's not negative reinforcement. It's punishment. Negative reinforcement is applying a distasteful stimulus constantly, then removing it when you get the desired behavior.

Obviously, you don't want to do this.

[Kenrick]

Okay, well we live in an apartment, and we have the 5'x10'-ish kitchen area gated off as "his area."  Bed, food, toys, etc. on one side;  piddle pad on the other.

As for discipline, of course I would never strike him hard at all.  (He weighs 2.5 pounds right now!)   In fact, I have been hesitant even to give him a soft "swat."  And he's actually been fairly good so far about going where he's supposed to go, considering he is 2 months old and on only his 3rd day away from the breeder's kennel.  Now... I've heard that they have like an 8-second short term memory for the "face in the mess" trick, and that you have to catch them in that time frame in order for it to have an effect.

Now -- to whoever mentioned "getting him onto hard food"  -- he already is!  The breeder has been giving him Pro Plan Chicken & Rice for Puppies, and so we're just picking up where she left off.  He seems to be fine with it.

I guess the only real problem we've had so far is his tendency to forget he has a piddle pad back in his area, and he'll go wherever he damn well pleases when he's out and about (except of course when we take him outside specifically to do it!).  I'm fine with the mess, it's just pee so far on the rug and never a lot of it; easy cleanup.  I'm just worried because a) I hope I'm "disciplining" him right, and b) I'm not sure it's even his fault, and c) not sure about the best house breaking method.

He's great otherwise though.  Sleeps a shitload though!  It's like 15 mins of moderate activity and he needs an hour nap.  Must be nice.

[Pineapple]

As a puppy, he is going to pee where he shouldnt. He will also have too much energy, will nip at you more often then you want, and will get rougher and seem more unmanageable then you want.

All of this actually happens in human babies, and it will pass. Imagine a 2 year old human, and then imagine your puppy. He is going to drive you nuts sometimes.

Some suggestions (a long list):

Do not make a big deal out of leaving, when you leave the house. Do not say good bye to him. Do not crouch down and give him sweet talk as you leave. You will give him seperation anxiety if you do this, and he will chew your furniture to shreds. If your leaving then returning is not made to be "an event", then he will treat it as commonplace.

Put paper down for him to pee on. Dogs and cats actually do not want to relieve themselves in their own living area. As a baby they have a bit more trouble realizing this within themselves, but they do all have this within them.

If you have to, put paper all over the floor in the tile area. Shrink the amount of floor covered by paper over time. Clean the spot on the tile where he peed, so that he cant really smell his pee on the tile, but will smell it on the paper and associate the paper with being the spot to pee.

Take him outside to pee fairly soon, after he starts to outgrow the newspaper method. Get him used to doing his business outside. Do this often, even if you have to take him out every other hour at first. His little bladder will need to go often.

Feed him regularly, at certain times. Dont always keep food in his bowl. After he eats, take him outside to pee and poop. Every single time. Get him used to this. Dogs actually like predictable schedules, so feed him and then take him out. Like clockwork.

Get him a kennel box, for when you sleep. You know, the sturdy plastic ones with the metal cage on the front. Make it much bigger than him, so he can easily turn around inside. Dogs have a built-in "cave settling" instinct. That will be his own private little home, almost like his own clubhouse. Whether you always keep the door closed at night is up to you, and will depend on his age. But after he is old enough to leave the tiled area, keep him in the cage at night. When he gets older, maybe it will be ok for him to sleep on your bed or something. But not now.

The cage isnt a punishment. Keep it in your bedroom, facing you so he can see you during the night. Dogs like having their own sheltered personal space. Out in the wild, animals that shelter themselves are safer. It will feel comforting to him, maybe not the first few nights but it will be fine. The new situation itself will make him wimper sometimes.

[RhyssaFireheart]

Congrats on the puppy, Kenrick.  He's a bit small for my tastes, but still cute.

One thing I would suggest is to either box or crate train him now.  5'x10' is too big an area for starters, he needs somehting much smaller at the beginning.  Dogs do not want to mess up their sleeping areas, so if you confine him more closely, he'll have much less opportunity to pee in one corner of the ktichen and sleep safely in the other.

Take him out regularly, and for your own ease in later years, use the same wordage each time.  My dog knows what "Go pee" means, because that's what we tell him each time.  Telling him to "go poop" doesn't work all the time because we haven't reinforced it that much.

Give him the run of the house gradually.  At first, just the kitchen, then the dining/living room, then the hall, etc.  Leave the bedrooms for last.  It's up to you if you want him sleeping on the bed once he's fully housebroken.  A Westie isn't a big deal, unless you allow him to sleep at the head of the bed with you.  An 86lb. Golden Retriever (as I have) is another.  He gets the foot of the bed unless we are giving him his "DEM" - daily emotional maintenance (just a big petting session in bed, while the husband and I chat mainly).  

Pay attention to the dog as much as possible when he's a puppy and still in training.  Get him used to you taking his toys, treats, food and / or water away at any time.  He's got to understand from the beginning that you are the controller of those items.  It saves hassle later on.  Don't be mean about it, of course, but be firm.  Also, start training as soon as possible, especially the basics of sit, down, stay, come, heel if you want to use that.  Oh yeah, be careful of using "sit down" as a command, especially if you also teach them as two separate commands.  Mine hears that as a straight dowm command, he skips the sit.  Puppy classes at about 4-6 months are almost a must as well.  And prong collars are not a bad thing, I prefer them over choke chains.  But for a Westie.. not sure if they make prongs that small.

Puppies are beggers.  Don't give in unless you are prepared to deal with that the rest of his life.  If you do allow him to get treats like that (eg - crumbs off the plate, bite of sandwich, etc.) don't let it become the expected thing.  Mine is almost 9 years old now, and it's hard to break him of his bad begging problem.  He's not  aggressive about it (in fact, he's very polite about begging, he just sits there and watches and waits... and waits.. and waits...), but he is constantly there waiting for his share.

I'm not a fan of crates ingeneral.  All my dogs growing up, and this one that I have now (my first "my dog") have been box trained, and then the box has gone away once he doesn't need it anymore.  I know all aobut the dogs and their "denning instinct" or whatever it's called, but all the dogs my family has had have also had the entire run of the house and treat it as their home.  Mine has a few "special" places were he always sleeps or lies down in, but those are in every room.  

Just from talking to some people, it seems to me that it takes longer for people to get their dog to the point where he can have the run of the entire house without worry if they use a crate.  Once we got to the fully housebroken stage, ours was free to go anywhere in the house he liked, including climbing under th bed if he so chose.  Nothing like hearing a whimper and finding yoru golden has climbed under the bed and gotten himself stuck.  He's figured out how to get out by himself now, though, luckily.

Oh yeah, if you are married (I'm guessing yes?), then don't be surprised if the gog fixates on one person over the other.  It's usually a given, and is the person that takes care of the dog the most.  In our case, it was me, since I"m the one that came home at lunch every day to let him out, and fed him, gave him his first bath, etc.  It happens, and while he listens just fine to my husband (better than to me sometimes), he's still my baby.

I said above, but be consistant with commands you want him to learn.  Dogs do have a good memory for those things, and mine understand "car ride" just fine.  In fact, it's a guaranteed way to get him all wound up, is if he thinks he's going on one.  I think dogs understand far more than we think.  I've come home and had the dog immediately go into his "I've fucked up and I know I'm gonna get in trouble" routine before I've even stepped into the house.  Usually, he has messed up, but occasionally he gives a "false alarm."  We don't even need to swat him anymore, just tone of voice will do it for him - pointing at the mess he made and saying "what is this!" in the "doom" tone of voice.  Then I tell him to get in his corner (dogs choice where he goes) and clean up.  I studiously "ignore" him for a short period of time befre calling him out for forgiveness.  After that, everything is fine.  We are consistant about it as well.  I guess that's the biggest part, be consistant with him, no matter how/what you decide to train him.

Gah, sorry this got so long.  Didn't mean to ramble so much.

[Hanzii]

Kenrick got a new puppy this weekend.

Anyone have any advice or tips for the first time puppy owner?  He seems to be doing pretty well so far.  Just sleeps a whole lot and goes to the bathroom (usually whe he's supposed to).

Thanks!

Trade it for a cat?!

I'm sorry - dogs doesn't do anything for me.
I have aquariums - it turns out you can mod them and be just as geeky about the hobby as a pc-owner. Who's ever heard of an overclocked puppy?

[geldonyetich]

Who's ever heard of an overclocked puppy?

Hey, what can't you overclock?

[Kenrick]

Wowowow this is a lot more response than I expected to get, and so fast!  I'm going to have to print this thread out and read over it carefully when I have some time, so I can reply better.  For now here's one thing I have to reply to:

Trade it for a cat?!

I'm sorry - dogs doesn't do anything for me.

Yeah, cats do plenty for me too.  They make me break out in hives and sneeze.  Having just gone through sinus surgery, I think I'll avoid that!

[Big Gulp]

Yeah, cats do plenty for me too.  They make me break out in hives and sneeze.  Having just gone through sinus surgery, I think I'll avoid that!

Not to mention that cats don't care if you live, die, or grow mushrooms in your crack.  All they want is food.

Dogs are different.  They're social critters and by taking one on you become the alpha dog.  They care about you, play with you, and love you.  Can they be more of a hassle than cats?  Yeah, but they're worth it.

[Xuri]

Sorry for going off-topic in my very first post on the forums, but... could the same methods that people use to "housebreak" dogs be used to do the same to MMORPG/MMOG-players? :P Can't exactly rub their noses in shit and yell "No! Bad MMORPG/MMOG-player!", but...

[Rodent]

Sorry for going off-topic in my very first post on the forums, but... could the same methods that people use to "housebreak" dogs be used to do the same to MMORPG/MMOG-players? :P Can't exactly rub their noses in shit and yell "No! Bad MMORPG/MMOG-player!", but...

We could, but then they got EQ/Trammel.

[HaemishM]

You're right... that is teh cuteness. Congrats on the puppy, you make me jealous! I would have a pet, but I'm too cheap to pay the pet deposit and don't feel it's fair to a pet to have them when I live in an apartment.

[Arcadian Del Sol]

nose in the poop housebreaks a dog rather nicely without the need for physical punishment. Just a nose in the poop and a firm "NO! BAD!" and they get the idea.

Police dogs are among the best trained canines, and they aren't trained with punishment, but with reward. They sniff drugs for one reason and one reason only: to get to play with the toy.

[Sky]

They sniff drugs for one reason and one reason only: to get to play with the toy.

That's the same reason I used to sniff 'em!

[Pineapple]

Police dogs are among the best trained canines, and they aren't trained with punishment, but with reward. They sniff drugs for one reason and one reason only: to get to play with the toy.

And the toy has cocaine in it. No seriously, when they are trained the toy that is used contains the drugs they are being trained to find.

The dog isnt drugged up, they are just trained to home in on the drug scent. Just the tiny whiffs that dogs can detect are enough to trigger the chemical reaction in the brain of "MORE", without getting them actually drugged. They dont become addicts, just good detectors.

[Big Gulp]

They dont become addicts, just good detectors.

Maybe it's because they can't admit that they have a problem.  Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.

[Kenrick]

Okay, new problem:

Separation Anxiety

Currently if we leave him during the day for any amount of time at all, he bawls his eyes out and plays around in his poop.  Any advice on this?  Is it worse because he's SO young and it's all SO new to him?  Or is there a way to train him that it is bad to freak out?

[Big Gulp]

Any advice on this?  Is it worse because he's SO young and it's all SO new to him?  Or is there a way to train him that it is bad to freak out?

I know of no way to train him on this.  But like a previous poster said, don't treat leaving like it's a big deal.  Eventually they'll grow out of this, but in the meanwhile don't treat them like delicate little flowers when you leave for the day.  They'll get used to the routine and it won't be so traumatic.  It's just a puppy thing.

ETA:  This is also why I tend to have 2 dogs at once.  They can at least keep themselves company.  Of course, when one of the dogs dies it's even worse for you because you're also dealing with a dog that has lost their buddy.

[Pineapple]

Okay, new problem:

Separation Anxiety

Currently if we leave him during the day for any amount of time at all, he bawls his eyes out and plays around in his poop.  Any advice on this?  Is it worse because he's SO young and it's all SO new to him?  Or is there a way to train him that it is bad to freak out?

Remember he is a toddler, if even that yet.

Your coming back is the way to cure it. He will realize that when you leave you will then come back eventually, but it will take a little time.

Like I said earlier, dont do anything to make leaving be an event. If you hear him whimpering, certainly dont come back in and pet him and say "its ok" for 5 minutes. Just put him in his area, and go.

I'm not a vet, but I have had a dog before and this is what I heard. If it gets really bad and you see him becoming destructive, you might go check with a dog expert.

The first few months are the hardest, because they are trying to learn human schedules and in a human environment, while the only thing they have are dog instinct. All that plus the fact that they are a toddler.

[Kenrick]

Very nicely said, both of you.  By "destructive" behavior, I'm assuming that rubbing your shit over half the kitchen floor doesn't qualify?  (just asking)

[Abagadro]

You can train them on this type of stuff, but it is a bit of a chore. You need to "leave" and come back in very small increments at first.  As in on the order of a few minutes.  Act like you will be acting when you are going to be gone for a long time.  Put him in his place (this is where crate training is awesome, as they won't mess up their living space), and "leave". Then come back two minutes later.  Don't make a big deal, of it, just let him out and act normal.  Then, maybe an hour later, do it again (don't do it right after the other, or it loses its effect).   Do it again tomorrow.  Then, the next day, extend the time you are gone to 5 minutes for two days, then 15 minutes the next and so on.  Dogs will do pretty much all the damage/anxiety related destruction within the first 5-10 minutes you are gone, so if you can acclimate them to you coming and going, they will start to lose the anxiety of the first few minutes and the problem will go away.

[Kenrick]

Ugh... well the problem is, both my fiancee and I work from 6:30-3:00 on weekdays.  I live close enough to come home for my lunch break, to at least give him a small bit of company for a few minutes.

Today was the first day we've gone to work, and of course I went home for lunch to find a disaster area of smudged waste.  At least he knew to do the smudging in the "potty" area of his space.  *sigh*... I just feel so mean making him cry and go crazy in his own poop!  I hope he will get used to it and grow out of it.

[Abagadro]

Do the exercises at night after work then. Do it 4-5 times a day for several weeks. Also, coming home at lunch isn't doing him any favors. It's the leaving that it the problem, so you are doubling up his anxiety.  Once you are gone, the long length of time isn't making it worse.

Also, are you planning on leaving him outside while you work once he is bigger? This will determine how to handle the lunch issue somewhat as if you are going to make it a routine of coming home and letting him out, you might as well get into that routine.

[kaid]

They do get used to it although as the person suggested this is where crating helps alot.  Coworker here got a new puppy and a cute lil bugger to help it get used to the same thing you are doing he is crating it and it seems to be working. Dog now pretty much just sleeps or works on its chew toys when put into his cage.

Getting it used to you leaving and coming back is also a good idea. Mainly just getting him used to the fact that while you may be going you WILL come back and he will settle down.


Kaid

[Pineapple]

I hope he will get used to it and grow out of it.

Welcome to the world of parenting a toddler lol.

But yeah he will get better. The first time I had a puppy, they would get overly aggressive and bite me with those tiny little razor teeth. They were a spaz, and had a little trouble there on the subject of relieving themselves on the paper. They also wimpered when I first left.

It is all baby behavior, so train them good now. I wouldnt be suprised if he did this again every day for the next two weeks. He is seeing your reaction to it, plus babies play in stuff they shouldnt all the time.

Just watch if it gets worse. If he tries to chew through his containment gate, spray some bad tasting stuff on it. They sell that sort of thing in pet stores, just for that purpose.

[kaid]

I would disagree a little bit about the not coming home at lunch. This will lessen the stress of you leaving more than once but most puppys cannot hold waste for 8 hours. So unless you want to give the doggie no choice but to poo where it shouldn't you will probably need to come home at lunch.

Kaid