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El Gallo
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Reply #140 on: September 07, 2004, 01:18:45 PM

D2 loot farming is a great example of that.  As is the good, old-fashioned "rare spawn/rare drop" in EQ.

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Reply #141 on: September 08, 2004, 07:35:01 AM

I only had about 6 hours or so on WoW using a friend's account.  There was a problem that I saw, but I want to know if it is really a problem for those who know the game abit better.

Each race/class has it's own set of quests it seems.  As a tauren hunter I was being led by the nose from one quest to the other.  I figured if I had a friend playing an orc shaman they would have an equal amount of quests eating up their time and unique to their town/class.  If we tried to group up as friends from outside the game, wouldn't it be a massive fucking pain in the ass?

He would have quests in his part of the world, I would have quests in mine.  Mine would keep leading me back to my part of the world for the next step, his would keep dragging him back to his place.  Sure he might be able to take some of the quests in my town and vice versa, but I am sure some of them, if not many of them, are class/race specific.

Travel time in this game already sucks more ass than DAOC (worst game to date IMO, but this is more annoying to me).  Traveling across the world constantly to do a tiny short few quests and then running across the world again for a few of the other players quests, splittling up and visiting our towns for the next step and then getting together again seems like a fucking nightmare.  Even if 'across the world' isn't very far for the newbie areas, the run speed in WoW is pathetically slow.

It looks to me that the only practical way to group is with others of your race until at least level 10-15 or so.  And that just sucks ass IMO.  Is there another easy way I am missing?
Sky
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Reply #142 on: September 08, 2004, 08:18:03 AM

Quote
the run speed in WoW is pathetically slow.

OH NOES! I despise slow run speeds.
El Gallo
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Reply #143 on: September 08, 2004, 08:19:25 AM

You can do any quest on your faction.  Very few quests are race specific, they are almost always just faction specific. There are some class specific ones, but they are fairly rare, probably available in all the capitol cities anyway, and mostly occur at regular and predictable intervals (e.g. shamans and warriors get new quests when they get a new totem type or stance, which hgappens every 10 levels).  There is no real need to be in your own race's area.  That means that your dwarf friend can hop on over to your human lands and do all your quests with you.

This is easier for some than others.  Obviously, races that start in the same place (orcs/trolls and gnomes/dwarves) can do this easily.  It is also very easy for gnomes/dwarves/humans to do this, since they start out with a flight route from Ironforge to Stormwind, so you can fly there as soon as you get your first 50 copper (or whatever) and for orcs/trolls/undead, since you can use the zepplin (which is free, not sure if it will always be?) to go from Undercity to Ogrimmar.

The trickier ones are taurens and night elves.  Taurens have the Barrens between them and the other 3 races, and that would be hard for a newbie to cross (though you could just run along the road, you'd die a few times though).  I heard some talk of an automatic flight route between Ogrimmar and Thunder Bluff, which would solve that problem.

I am not sure about Night Elves, having never played one seriously.  I think that they can boat/fly from their capitol to Stormwind or Ironforge, but I think it takes a few silver to do, which will take a couple levels to scrounge up.

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kaid
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Reply #144 on: September 08, 2004, 08:21:12 AM

Actually if you can get to the same area as your friends started at which can be a bit tough till you are level 5 or so it works fine. The newbie area quests are either generic or class specific. I have not found any that were race specific so if your friend joined you in a newbie area you would all be doing the same quests.

I infact see many night elves doing just this because the night elf area still seems to not be fully fleshed out. Also probably people go to where they know so if they leveled somebody in the dwarf area before they may go back there just to be where it is familiar.

Some classes though have issues when traveling abroad. If you take a druid on walk about from night elf lands it can be very difficult to find trainers other than the one at stormwind.

The walking around is a bit tedious but using a combination of the recall stones and the griffin routes its not super horrible but there is an AWFUL lot of hiking in the game.

kaid
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Reply #145 on: September 08, 2004, 08:36:11 AM

Thanks for the info.  Good to know.  The tauren area just FELT racially specific.  I didn't know anyone could do those quests, since they would refer to 'your kindred' and stuff like that in the quest it always seemed racially targeted.

I can see how trainers would be a problem, but from other games I am pretty used to traveling to trainers to 'level up' or buy spells.
El Gallo
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Reply #146 on: September 08, 2004, 08:46:01 AM

I think that there are class trainers for every class in the capitol cities, even where the race of that city cannot be that class.  I know that there are priest/mage/warlock trainers in Thunderbluff, for example (in the undead area).  So you don't have to go home every other level to train even (I think).

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Reply #147 on: September 08, 2004, 08:57:54 AM

Quote from: Nebu
Actually, the analogy isn't all that far off.

The payoff is the quest reward and not actually the foozle tail though there is a direct link between the two.  Ultimately, it's about time.  Blizzard wants to consume your time while you attempt to obtain said foozle tail such that they can continue to extort cash from you.  If you obtain quest items too easily, this will a) devalue the quest reward and b) allow you to complete the quest too quickly.  Remember, this is a ultimately a business we're talking about where the bottom line is a razor thin line between keeping them too long at a task vs. making the tasks too easy.


You guys are still missing the point.

Let's say you have a quest to collct 5 foozles.  Foozles have a 1 in 10 chance of dropping off the Foozle Monster.  So this quest is "really", on average, kill 50 foozle monsters.  The thing is, some people will only have to kill 25, and others will have to kill 100.

Why not simply make the quest "kill 50 foozle monsters"? Or if you want to have items so players have to carry something back, then back it "collect 50 foozles" and make the foozle monster drop it EVERY TIME.

The time invested and the reward gained is, on average, the same in either case.  The difference is the first one has a random chance element to it, which is generally more frustrating than it is rewarding.

Bruce
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Reply #148 on: September 08, 2004, 09:12:34 AM

Quote from: SirBruce
The time invested and the reward gained is, on average, the same in either case.  The difference is the first one has a random chance element to it, which is generally more frustrating than it is rewarding.


I heartily agree. After spending two hours trying to get 3, yes just 3, Nightsaber Fangs. This was also after the initial huge wave of players going through the level 1-10 quests. Yes, there we still a fair amount of people doing the same quest, but no more than I would expect at release and the weeks that follow. Luckily, that was the only frustrating quest I encountered of the Night Elves... so far...

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Reply #149 on: September 08, 2004, 09:13:20 AM

If you do that, Bruce -then why not just make the quest: "click YES to accept the reward" ?

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Nebu
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Reply #150 on: September 08, 2004, 09:13:49 AM

Quote from: SirBruce
Why not simply make the quest "kill 50 foozle monsters"? Or if you want to have items so players have to carry something back, then back it "collect 50 foozles" and make the foozle monster drop it EVERY TIME.

The time invested and the reward gained is, on average, the same in either case.  The difference is the first one has a random chance element to it, which is generally more frustrating than it is rewarding.


You're very correct in your analogy, but the reason it's done this way is almost Pavlovian.  If you told someone to kill 50 foozles, they'd likely say "screw that" or trudge through it with some angst.  Instead, you say "just get me 10 foozle tails".  For some reason, the psyche seems to handle that better for many.  Now, you have as an added bonus the "drop lottery".  When you actually GET a tail, you get a little mini-rush (Yay, I got a foozle tail!  This is like a prize in Cracker Jack!).  Couple the two together and you get the sugar-coated EQ camp treadmill effect.

I agree that any rational person would prefer to have the system done in a more up-front manner but I see why they have implemented as they have.  This game is about keeping people subscribed... any way that they can add an element of anticipation (uncommon/rare drops) seems to have some effect.  Hell, I can't explain why people would camp a spawn for 20h straight in EQ, but they do.

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Reply #151 on: September 08, 2004, 09:34:20 AM

Quote from: Nebu
Quote from: SirBruce
Why not simply make the quest "kill 50 foozle monsters"? Or if you want to have items so players have to carry something back, then back it "collect 50 foozles" and make the foozle monster drop it EVERY TIME.

The time invested and the reward gained is, on average, the same in either case.  The difference is the first one has a random chance element to it, which is generally more frustrating than it is rewarding.


You're very correct in your analogy, but the reason it's done this way is almost Pavlovian.  If you told someone to kill 50 foozles, they'd likely say "screw that" or trudge through it with some angst.  Instead, you say "just get me 10 foozle tails".  For some reason, the psyche seems to handle that better for many.  Now, you have as an added bonus the "drop lottery".  When you actually GET a tail, you get a little mini-rush (Yay, I got a foozle tail!  This is like a prize in Cracker Jack!).  Couple the two together and you get the sugar-coated EQ camp treadmill effect.


Actually the reason for these quests is to target the Soloer, thats you bruce. In a group, you can rip through a kill 50 quest in a matter of minutes, but solo it would take much more time. With a loot 10, you have basically the same amount of time spent, weather solo or in a group. Infact it is a but more productive to do it solo. That was the official dev reply to the kill 50 or loot 10 question on the forum.

So there you go. You got a quest made specially FOR soloers....


I agree, they do really kind of suck. I think its pretty universal in the beta, most people dont like the collection quests. There are some that are just attrocious. There is a quest to get 1 spider ichor, in Hillsbrad. Took me over an hour of just killing spiers to get it. What did I do? I promptly did a /suggest that it took to long, was boring, and the drop should be sped up. But did it suck? yes. Thats one of the bad parts I was talking about.
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Reply #152 on: September 08, 2004, 09:53:42 AM

Quote from: Soukyan
Quote from: SirBruce
The time invested and the reward gained is, on average, the same in either case.  The difference is the first one has a random chance element to it, which is generally more frustrating than it is rewarding.


I heartily agree. After spending two hours trying to get 3, yes just 3, Nightsaber Fangs. This was also after the initial huge wave of players going through the level 1-10 quests. Yes, there we still a fair amount of people doing the same quest, but no more than I would expect at release and the weeks that follow. Luckily, that was the only frustrating quest I encountered of the Night Elves... so far...


I had a similar problem with the fangs. The drop rate is just really bad on them.  I /suggested they take a look at it and /bugged that i thought they were dropping too slow.  If you'd do the same we'd have a better shot at someone seeing it, I imagine.  This was also a complaint some of the other testers had about the murloc collection quests in closed beta, and a Bliz rep recommended doing what I just said.

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El Gallo
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Reply #153 on: September 08, 2004, 10:09:57 AM

Quote from: SirBruce


The time invested and the reward gained is, on average, the same in either case.  The difference is the first one has a random chance element to it, which is generally more frustrating than it is rewarding.

Bruce


R->C->P.  Psychology simply disagrees with your assertion.  People by and large prefer occasional reinforcement to the steady, predictable punch-the-clock grind you prefer.  No matter how many times you cover your ears and scream "LA LA LA RATS WOULD RATHER GET THE PELLET EVERY TIME THEY PUSH THE BUTTON" it's just false.  That's why slot machines, Everquest and Diablo II make heaps of money.  If you hate them, don't do collects.  If skipping the collects leaves you with an insufficient number of quests to advance the entire game (which it might if you play Horde) /suggest it.

Of course, there clearly are some quests where you don't get your pellet quickly enough and the frustration takes over (FUCKING SPIDER ICHOR HOW I DESPISE THEE), but that's what beta is for.

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MrHat
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Reply #154 on: September 08, 2004, 10:21:00 AM

Wow, so I just made a dwarf.

Thier quests involve SO much running it's ludicruos.

Edit: So I started a dwarf hunter last night, and it was going really well till I hit 9.  Now I have 1 quest, and it's too hard to do myself.  So I've been L9 for about 4 hours this morning.
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Reply #155 on: September 08, 2004, 11:46:56 AM

Quote from: MrHat
Edit: So I started a dwarf hunter last night, and it was going really well till I hit 9.  Now I have 1 quest, and it's too hard to do myself.  So I've been L9 for about 4 hours this morning.


That's something I wondered. How many different quests do you have at once?

How many ways can you get experience to level?

From the sounds of a lot of people, everyone has certain quests that progress the game and provide exp and you get to pick your reward. Instead of having tons and tons of quests in an attempt to overwhelm you with content. I.E. WoW seems like a single player RPG with thousands of other players playing the same game.
El Gallo
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Reply #156 on: September 08, 2004, 11:56:22 AM

Quote from: MrHat

Edit: So I started a dwarf hunter last night, and it was going really well till I hit 9.  Now I have 1 quest, and it's too hard to do myself.  So I've been L9 for about 4 hours this morning.


Here is a list of all the quests available for alliance players that are suggested levels 8-12:

http://www.thottbot.com/?f=q&title=&obj=&desc=&minl=8&maxl=12&minol=&maxol=&empire=A

(you can alter the search to get lower quests if you need them)

You may need to move to a different area, 9-ish is where things in the newbie zone start to dry up I think (its been a while).  Usually, there are a couple delivery type quests given to direct you to new areas that will be good for you.  I would /suggest your problem with finding the content and then go to one of the zones listed on that link where there are a lot of quests your level.

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Reply #157 on: September 08, 2004, 11:57:00 AM


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MrHat
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Reply #158 on: September 08, 2004, 12:12:40 PM

Quick Update:

Problem solved, I remembered that my human warlock had a ton of quests around this level.  So I moved to Stormwind and did a few, got my and then some in about a half hour.

Now I get to charm an animal!


Edit:  BAH! I wanted to charm a cow.  How sad.
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Reply #159 on: September 11, 2004, 01:35:03 PM

WoW is going to be like every other Blizzard game: easy to learn, polished, and addicting.

Unfortunately, it's also going to be like every other Blizzard game: rife with Battle.Net kiddies and Koreans, maphacks/radar and other cheats, and a flourishing eBay market that will eventually lead to insane duping.

It'll be be a fun first 3-4 months though.
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Reply #160 on: September 11, 2004, 06:28:40 PM

Quote from: littleboo
Unfortunately, it's also going to be like every other Blizzard game: rife with Battle.Net kiddies and Koreans, maphacks/radar and other cheats, and a flourishing eBay market that will eventually lead to insane duping.


That sounds just about like every other MMO that's on the market, so I don't see what your point is.

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Reply #161 on: September 11, 2004, 07:56:34 PM

I must agree with Carl from Aqua Teen...randomized dropping is generally the best way to create addicts out of people. The reason is, you never know! Maybe when you pull that lever you'll get something, even though you got something the last time too! Every time there is a chance!

It also will create long periods of frustration, periods of incridble luck, etc. It's more memorable.

It may not be true of everyone, but for the majority of humans, non-humans, even animate milkshakes, random interval training is the best.

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Reply #162 on: September 11, 2004, 08:37:50 PM

Quote

That sounds just about like every other MMO that's on the market, so I don't see what your point is.


B.Net takes the cake for skull-pounding mindnumbing.  It has something to do with unfiltered names, rampant chat bots, and not being able to communicate with half the players(Koreans).  It's kind of like the streets of NYC or some other congested city.  In other MMO's like DAoC and EQ, they just like to look down upon you or pretend you don't exist.  It's like the Hamptons or some other gated, rich, white enclave.  I guess as I'm getting older, I prefer to be within the vincinity of the Hamptons.

As I play more and more of the stress test, I'm starting to get the feeling WoW will be the closest MMO yet to capturing that mythical UO feeling the vets remember so dearly.  It may have something to do with unchecked names.  Another reason is that WoW seems to shed the sexed-up fantasy/medieval environment of EQ/DAoC/SWG with the cartoony graphics to remind you, the addicted MMO gamer, that it is just a freakin game and that you can have some pointless fun here and there.
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Reply #163 on: September 11, 2004, 08:58:06 PM

Quote from: Margalis
I must agree with Carl from Aqua Teen...randomized dropping is generally the best way to create addicts out of people. The reason is, you never know! Maybe when you pull that lever you'll get something, even though you got something the last time too! Every time there is a chance!

It also will create long periods of frustration, periods of incridble luck, etc. It's more memorable.

It may not be true of everyone, but for the majority of humans, non-humans, even animate milkshakes, random interval training is the best.


There's surely been psychological studies to determine the optimal "drop rate" for the rat hitting to bar to get the pellet of food.  I suspect many of the WoW quests are below that optimal rate.

Bruce
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Reply #164 on: September 11, 2004, 09:05:52 PM

What, for all rats?  I would think different rats would have different preferences for drop rate, based on varying genetics and upbringing.   (Though that was probably outside of the scope of such an experiment.  I would assume they just took standard generic stock rats which had all been raised in the same environment to do the tests.)

On other words, I'm rebutting the possibility that there really is an optimal drop rate for all people.   Although I could agree that, with careful study, you might be able to get the majority satisfied with the right drop rate.

Actually, for something completely different, I don't think the drop rate is the problem in WoW.   I think it's the total lack of social hook and the quests don't feel quite "epic" enough.   However, it's possible this may be a result of observations of an unfinished product.

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Reply #165 on: September 11, 2004, 10:36:55 PM

Quote
standard generic stock rats


I believe lab rats come in many varients these days..  List here has lots of different 'inbred' strains of rat.  An 'inbred' strain is one that has been brother-sister mated for 20 consecutive generations, and can be traced to a single ancestral pair.

The quantity of detail on some of the strains is... disturbing.

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Reply #166 on: September 12, 2004, 02:00:59 AM

Quote from: SirBruce

There's surely been psychological studies to determine the optimal "drop rate" for the rat hitting to bar to get the pellet of food.  I suspect many of the WoW quests are below that optimal rate.

Bruce


I suspect they are too low for a lot of people, and just right for a lot of other people. IMO ideally the drop rate for quest items would be such that it roughly corresponds with XP rate...you don't want to be stuck doing a low level quest because the right items haven't dropped, or burn through them and have nothing to do...

Items that don't drop often enough is about the same as XP curves that are too high - content substitutes.

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Reply #167 on: September 12, 2004, 08:15:36 AM

Quote
It may have something to do with unchecked names.


Blizzard announced a couple of weeks ago that they are going to implement a restrictive name policy. Your name has to at least make an attempt at fitting into the fantasy environment, so ~~~MaStaH~sLayAh~~~ is out of luck.

Um, never mind.
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Reply #168 on: September 12, 2004, 12:24:26 PM

Quote from: geldonyetich
I think it's the total lack of social hook and the quests don't feel quite "epic" enough.   However, it's possible this may be a result of observations of an unfinished product.

No, it's an observation from someone that still hasn't seen the game.

I'm at level 32. And I cannot even brag to have seen half the game because the treadmill obviously slows down.

I think the "Gomeragon" instance is a major milegate. Right now I pass nearly all my time playing in full groups and the gameplay in that instance is the most awesome experience I had in a mmorpg to date.

In the last three days I just keep going there because I'm simply addicted. Not to the game, just to that precise instanced dungeon.

I love the mini-games, the hyper fast gameplay between tons of monsters and those little armored guys looking like Astro Boy.

Really, someone here has seen the instance?

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Reply #169 on: September 12, 2004, 12:43:12 PM

The only instance I got to see were the Westvale mines, with the couple of missions that involve things down there.  I was cool, but not THAT cool.  And it required a group, which meant soloing was right out, which totally sucks.

I had no idea WoW had mini-games; I've never seen one.  If I had to wait until level 25 or 35 to get to them, I think I'd rather just go play something else more fun.

Bruce
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Reply #170 on: September 12, 2004, 01:12:54 PM

Quote from: SirBruce
The only instance I got to see were the Westvale mines, with the couple of missions that involve things down there.  I was cool, but not THAT cool.  And it required a group, which meant soloing was right out, which totally sucks.

I had no idea WoW had mini-games; I've never seen one.  If I had to wait until level 25 or 35 to get to them, I think I'd rather just go play something else more fun.

Bruce


Havent we already decided you would be better off with Fable and Baulders Gate already?
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Reply #171 on: September 12, 2004, 01:49:35 PM

Quote from: Ardent
Blizzard announced a couple of weeks ago that they are going to implement a restrictive name policy. Your name has to at least make an attempt at fitting into the fantasy environment, so ~~~MaStaH~sLayAh~~~ is out of luck.


I'm sure this will upset a number of the beta testers I've seen... they will have to come up with a new name once the game goes live.  Oh, I also want to thank the testers for showing me every imaginable way to spell the names of all of the LoTR characters.  

I've met some great people while testing this game but MAN did I have to wade through a sea of idiots to find them.  What is it about these titles that bring out the gaming dregs?  If I decide to give this thing a go at release it's with the hope that a monthly sub fee will act as an idiot filter.

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Reply #172 on: September 12, 2004, 01:56:57 PM

Quote from: Nebu
If I decide to give this thing a go at release it's with the hope that a monthly sub fee will act as an idiot filter.


In a reasonably crowded zone, ask over general chat what everyone thinks the monthly fee will be.  You'll get a few exploding heads from some interesting names that way.  Or at least the conversation I watched on Ysera did.

Yes, some folks still think it's a standalone or 'free' game, and a very large number expect it to be released in November.  How sad for them.

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Reply #173 on: September 12, 2004, 02:19:21 PM

Quote from: Merusk


Yes, some folks still think it's a standalone or 'free' game, and a very large number expect it to be released in November.  How sad for them.


I can't help but feel it will be released soon.

By soon I don't mean Nov. cuz that seems TOO soon, but earlier than we typically think.

VU really wants this game out I think.
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Reply #174 on: September 12, 2004, 03:07:20 PM

Quote
I've met some great people while testing this game but MAN did I have to wade through a sea of idiots to find them.


I've tested this game since Alpha, and I STILL haven't found a guild to join, mostly because I'm forced to solo to avoid teh stupid.

If you find a group of decent, mature folks Nebu, who play on the Beta server, please let me know and I'll hitch on to that wagon.

Um, never mind.
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