A terrible yet undeniable equation has occurred to me.

[Engels]

Yeah, I've always hated the lack of innovation on consoles.  Guitar Hero, Katamari, Odin Sphere, Shadow of the Colossus, Dead Rising, GrimGrimoire, Ico, Okami, Calling All Cars, Trauma Center, Cookin Mama, Bully, Wii Sports, upcoming stuff like Eye of Judgement...  those games all started out on the PC right?

Hey, I'm more than happy to be proved wrong, but my point was to point out really revolutionary changes in how we play on digital games. I mentioned Meridian 16 (instead of UO and EQ) for the simple reason is that they were the first notable MMO that introduced new technology that inspired the whole genre. I mentioned HalfLife for similar reasons.

I'd be content to concede that Guitar Hero was a cool advance of sort, and that the Wii is also groundbreaking, but what I'm saying is that once a platform is out, developers are constrained by what that particular company, wether its Sony or Nintendo or Microsoft, has in mind for any future developments, and since that's often a guarded secret, innovation is limited to what those three or four companies have in mind for the future.

With PC systems, since there's more flexibility in what's going on, developers have a broader pallet to work with. One can argue that in that case, we're constrained by what Nvidia and ATI are going to do in the next generation of video cards, so in a sense, that too is a locked down market, so maybe its all the same.

People more engaged in the industry, of which we have quite a few in f13, should probably speak up and correct any misimpressions I'm harboring, since as I've said, my only real concern is the stagnation of revolutionary development of digital entertainment.

[HaemishM]

I'm sorry, I just don't think PC gaming is going to die.  It's just going to go back to the independents.  Maybe it's sad that the gaming equivalent of the Hollywood film industry is moving to consoles, but I don't really think it's a terrible tragedy.  Console ports to PC are a terrible tragedy, however.

Isn't that what I just said? PC Gaming will become a niche market, which is where it should be. Niche markets are where indies thrive. The only PC games in stores will be the ones that are by the big boys (the EA's, the Biowares, etc.) and those which have had mad success in the niche market.

The PC market doesn't need the video-game equivalent of the Hollywood film industry. That kind of incestuous clusterfuck doesn't work well with innovation.

[HaemishM]

Why would PS3s be fertile ground for camwhores?  Simple, PS3 owners have enough disposable income to buy a PS3, and the demographics lean towards their being male and young and stupid enough (or old and desperate enough) to pay cash to see a naked woman.  Plus with Home you get the advantage of an easy way to meet potential customers.

But as I said, there aren't nearly enough people with PS3's to make it a great market, whereas PC users are more numerous by orders of magnitude, and also have a high proportion of folks with disposable income and a thirst for titties. The ho's go where the scrilla is, y0, and there's more scrilla on the PC.

[Yegolev]

Isn't that what I just said?

It is.  I passed on the explicit "I agree with Haemish" part since I do tend to go on and on.  Won't happen again.  Summation: we agree with each other and both disagree with Kitsune.

I don't exactly agree with the "indies belong on the PC" part but that may be because I don't like to label or pigeonhole people, rather I see the PC as The Place To Go when making an indie game because you can get the tools for free and basic PC is shit-cheap.  However for the purposes of this thread, I agree with you.

[HaemishM]

Thankfully, all 3 consoles are starting to open up their architecture to indy development in their own ways, so devs won't be completely pigeonholed into PC development. I just think that for business purposes, the PC is where that belongs because it's a platform without restriction from some monolithic hardware body like Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo. And it's more open in terms of uploading content for purchase or download. All 3 of the consoles have some rather onerous restrictions on content, from Microsoft's subscription plan to Nintendo's rules about getting an ESRB rating. I'm sure Sony has some kind of restriction for PSN, though I've no idea what they are.

I tend to assume people disagree with me when they post. I should adopt a bit more "Kneel before Zod" posture, I suppose. 

We need a Kneel before Zod emoticon.

[Yegolev]

Well, that's the problem isn't it?  The console manufacturers are treating indie game development (what was once referred to as just "game development") as Serious Business.  Some people might just want to make fun games instead of become a tiny wart on the money-grubbing ass of Big Business, which is what you do if you want to make a console game.

Agreeing again, by the way.

[Stephen Zepp]

Thankfully, all 3 consoles are starting to open up their architecture to indy development in their own ways,

I guess that's a good enough segue......n conjunction with PC and console developer Pronto Games, GarageGames also announced the availability of Torque licensing for the Nintendo Wii.

[Selby]

One can argue that in that case, we're constrained by what Nvidia and ATI are going to do in the next generation of video cards, so in a sense, that too is a locked down market, so maybe its all the same.

My big issue with this part is the fact that we seem as a game market to be focused on how pretty a game looks.  That great graphics and sounds somehow are the measuring stick which all games are judged.  How great it looks on some new $600 card matters jack shit to me as I don't shell out big bucks to wave my e-peen over some name.  I want to play a fun game (fun being subjective).  If the game is pretty, that's nice but I really don't care if it isn't fun to play.  I can understand it's not possible to really rate "fun" on a scale of 1-10 and how pretty the game looks and sounds is considerably easier, but that doesn't tell me if the game is in any way an enjoyable experience once I get tired of looking at it.

[Margalis]

Distribution is the big problem, not tools. That is why the PC has been the big indie dev platform - if you can put up a download somewhere or copy shit onto a disc you can distribute your game.

The first XNA/Yaroze/Wii Ware thing to take off will be the one that approaches that. Mark my words - it will have nothing to do with the system or the tools, and everything to do with the distribution model. (Thus spake Nostrodamus)

Stephen, I don't see any details about Wii Ware stuff on the GG site. In general I can't find any information about it at all, from a developer perspective.

[Engels]

Selby,

That's an issue that affects both console and PC games alike; originality in actual game play is not dependent on technology constraints as much as it is on the fostering of imagination on the part of the producers. That's been the beef with EA for years.

I can virtually guarantee that Fallout 1 will still be considered a better game than 90% of the drek produced in the next decade, regardless of what technological marvels the world will bring. I'm addressing advances in technology being hampered by hardware constraints imposed by console distributors and video card distributors.

[Stephen Zepp]

Distribution is the big problem, not tools. That is why the PC has been the big indie dev platform - if you can put up a download somewhere or copy shit onto a disc you can distribute your game.

The first XNA/Yaroze/Wii Ware thing to take off will be the one that approaches that. Mark my words - it will have nothing to do with the system or the tools, and everything to do with the distribution model. (Thus spake Nostrodamus)

Stephen, I don't see any details about Wii Ware stuff on the GG site. In general I can't find any information about it at all, from a developer perspective.

It's a three-party scenario, and we don't know much more about the whole process than anyone else does unfortunately. Once Nintendo decides to release specific details, we'll be able to get more information out as well.

And I do agree with your statement regarding distribution to a degree, although one of the big advantages of having any cross-platform engine is that you can go ahead and "bet on the come", meaning that indies can develop a game on their PC's, and know that the porting process, if they are awarded dev slots/purchase dev kits (hardware) and license platform layers, is that much easier.

But, you are absolutely correct--none of the console platforms have streamlined commercial distribution for small studios/indiesat all, and no one really knows where it is going.

Microsoft is poising to release GSE 2.0 (their XNA stuff), and they seem to be releasing pre-GameFest hints that a process to XBLA for commercial distribution of XNA games is coming, but it's all speculation at this point.

All I can really say with any degree of certainty (not being sly here, we really don't have any info) is that while it's not perfect yet (indie distribution to consoles), it really does seem to be iteratively getting better, and at least two of the three console providers are taking steps. Ultimately, I do feel that it will eventually be at least somewhat on par with the penetration capability the large studios have, but it won't be for the "everyman indie"--just like garage bands making it big and signing a record deal, it will take extreme talent and dedication to get an indie game on to any console.

[ajax34i]

So then, we can expect to start paying $100 - $500 for a PC, because who needs a $2000 machine if there are no games to play on it, NVidia to go bankrupt, and Microsoft to be the only force behind the continuation of Moore's Law for CPU's and graphics cards through bloated OS'es?

[HaemishM]

You can already buy PC's for $500 if you aren't too picky. Nvidia won't go bankrupt, but seeing the writing on the wall was one reason they tried to get the contract for the original X-Box's graphics. The force behind the continuation of Moore's law isn't Microsoft, it's business everywhere, especially industries that use the Internet or graphics-processor intensive operations like architecture, engineering, etc.

PC's aren't built to be mainstream entertainment devices, they are hobbyist tools. When a family can get decent web browsing/email/media streaming/games/word processing/checkbook balancing in one hardware-locked, plug-n-play package for $400 or less, they will.

[Selby]

and Microsoft to be the only force behind the continuation of Moore's Law for CPU's and graphics cards through bloated OS'es?

Nope.  The iPod, cell phones, all of these devices are continually getting smaller and smaller and requiring greater and greater processing power and memory.  Moore's law isn't going to go away unless all of the industry decides to not follow it (which isn't going to happen).