Slashdot inteview about LOTRO with Turbine CEO

[Trippy]

http://interviews.slashdot.org/interviews/07/06/08/0410202.shtml

Lots of crappy questions but some of you might be interested in some of the responses.

[Krakrok]

Yeah it says just about nothing. Only thing I got out of it was they are going to do an update to the Monster Play sometime later this year.

[Trippy]

I thought the upcoming music update where you'll be able to import in your own music "scores" is interesting.

We're adding an element many musicians are familiar with; it's an ascii format called ABC notation? That will allow players to create their own songs, write it down in a more simple and readable way, and then share/integrate/import it into the game.

I don't know how they are going to handle all the copyright infringement, though.

[CmdrSlack]

Also, housing in October after the Monster Play love.

Other than that, not much.

I thought the upcoming music update where you'll be able to import in your own music "scores" is interesting.

We're adding an element many musicians are familiar with; it's an ascii format called ABC notation? That will allow players to create their own songs, write it down in a more simple and readable way, and then share/integrate/import it into the game.

I don't know how they are going to handle all the copyright infringement, though.

If there was a problem, I know what I would argue. Whether it would work is a whole other story.

Were I Turbine's lawyer-folks, I'd say that the files are always on the user's machine. The only infringement that Turbine makes possible is infringing on the performance right to a specific song. I'd also argue that the logic in Grokster is inapplicable to music system and say that the Betamax rule of "making stuff that allows people to infringe doesn't mean you're liable" applies. Failing that, I'd also have modified the TOS/EULA to include a promise that the user would not use the music system to infringe, would indemnify and hold harmless Turbine, etc.

Also, I'd just appeal to common sense. We don't sue Korg for making keyboards that can be used to infringe copyright, including pre-programmed loops. Turbine shouldn't be held liable for adding a similar system into their game. I'd point to the limited octave range and number of playable notes as another indicator that Turbine wasn't trying to create some kind of Ren Faire Kazaa. If fans translate their favorite songs to ABC format and trade them, as a service provider, Turbine really isn't liable for that. So yeah, I guess I'd toss in some DMCA stuff as well.

[Krakrok]

If there is no copy of a sound recording anywhere they can just get a simple performance license from ASCAP and BMI and they should be fine.

[CmdrSlack]

Yeah, but that's the EASY way.  ;)

[Trippy]

I'm not talking about performances. I'm talking about taking a copyrighted music score and converting it into ABC format, which, though it doesn't look anything like traditional musical notation, is arguably a derivative work.

[Venkman]

Good read. The biggest thing I got was from the last paragraph. The plan is:

June: We know about this update
July-ish: Solstice Party
August: Big Monster Play Update
October: Player Housing

[Murgos]

Does anyone know if transposed music is actually covered by the original copyright?  I thought copyright was pretty strict as to how much a work can change before it's considered a new work.

If not I would imagine that there is a pretty good argument that music composed for guitar is not the same music when composed for LoTRO.

[Trippy]

Yes transposed music is a derivative work.

[CmdrSlack]

What we're really looking at is whether it's worth it to come after people playing cover songs in LoTRO. It'd be almost the same as the music industry coming down on two kids jamming in their garage, or the guy at the guitar store plinking out Stairway to Heaven.

[Venkman]

I think it's only going to matter if people start selling cover song music, either ingame for ingame money, or out of it. And on the former, it's ongoing to matter if LoTRO becomes a hotbed of RMT activity (going by the gold-per-dollar ratio right now, there's a lot of supply). On the latter, I'd be hard press to see anyone making money from selling videos of their band playing in LoTRO :)

Ultimately it's going to be a bit like CoX vs comic book industry. It's going to depend on how much people care and how close LoTRO systems can be used to replicate a real song. LoTRO music sounds awesome for what it is, but it's still plinky MIDI crap, not even approaching Ray Lynch from 20 years ago. I suspect it'll improve when they add in sustains with the patch next week, but I don't think people are going to hear a LoTRO-generated song on the radio and confuse it with the real deal.

[Falconeer]

Good read. The biggest thing I got was from the last paragraph. The plan is:

June: We know about this update
July-ish: Solstice Party + Reputation for level 50 chars, Faction stuff and faction lodges
August: Big Monster Play Update
October: Player Housing

[Khaldun]

I'm thinking they're going to need to feed this beast fairly significant new content at least three times a year if they want to make their current userbase stay--if I were them I'd particularly have a wary eye on Age of Conan. LOTRO is a decent game but it really does not have a lot of stickiness. When I look at the plan in this interview, I'm thinking that if they aren't planning to roll out another large area of Middle-Earth by December-January (Mirkwood, Moria), they're going to really bleed subs. Blizzard could dawdle with an expansion, given the large committed user base that they have. Turbine can't.

[Venkman]

At the same time, once LoTRO hits its stride by ditching the disilluioned and completests, what real competition does it have? LoTRO has sort of a SWG-like fanbase. Sure it's a DIKU, but the fans who stick to it will be here for the lore and DIKU. Who's in WoW for that combination?

So I think about the LoTR fans and what they could possibly be drawn to if Turbine flubs things.

Any existing DIKU, but that's already the case.
What new DIKUs are coming that, by nature, have appreciable awareness?
AoC for a lore+DIKU experience (with new UI), but how much crossover is between Conan and LoTR fans?
Same question for Stargate, Star Trek, BSG and Firefly.

The genre is already fractured between multiple playstyles, many formats, different  motivators, and major brands/IP. I actually think by not being the #1 MMOG evar!1!/, LoTRO has less to worry about going forward than EQ1 and WoW had before it. It's sometimes good to not be the King :)

[Khaldun]

Eh, for them to retain the lore-drawn customer base, they've got to stick to the lore. Which, surprisingly to me, they've done pretty well at the start. (Though I'm not sure that I'm feeling the LOTR tingles after spending four hours tediously picking my way through Garth Agarwen: the instance design in the game is hugely UNevocative of Tolkien, and pretty much vanilla DIKU tedium). Are they going to stick to it going forward? I can't say I have huge confidence in that given that their main design goal seems to be "imitate WoW as much as possible". So now we get the undead dragon, we've already got Balrog-lites and Nazgul-lites. They can't stay true to lore and do any of the normal bells-and-whistles that come with expansions: there really aren't any other plausible player-races appropriate to a Mirkwood or Moria expansion, there aren't really any other classes I can see as plausible to the lore. I know I'd enjoy playing Moria or Mirkwood just to go there, and certainly they could put some cool shit in Dol Guldur or at the bottom of the Endless Stair if they need some freaky new enemies, but for the most part, it's just got to be more orcs, goblins, trolls, spiders, etcetera for enemies.

So if they decide at some point to break a close tie to the lore in order to have new DIKU mechanics, they probably lose the Tolkien-heads. Then they're just an adequate, technically stable DIKU, and on that front, they lose to WoW/EQ2 on one axis of comparison (bigger, better) and to teh new shiny (Age of Conan) on the other axis of comparison. If they stick to the lore on some relatively non-anal retentive but reasonably evocative level, yeah, they probably have a solid core playerbase for a goodly while.

[Hound]

So if they decide at some point to break a close tie to the lore in order to have new DIKU mechanics, they probably lose the Tolkien-heads.

The die hard Similarion quoting lore heads departed last year, some even earlier. Most of the players I know now are playing simply because it is a good solid game and a change of pace from WoW and EQII. I think I would puke if I ever tried to level one more alt in EQII, and I know players who feel the same about WoW. Not saying they are bad games or LoTRO is better but even eating steak every night would get old after a while.  In 2 years I will probably be saying the same about LoTRO also unless the expansions can keep my interest better than EQII's did.

[gravdiggr]

I'm thinking they're going to need to feed this beast fairly significant new content at least three times a year if they want to make their current userbase stay--if I were them I'd particularly have a wary eye on Age of Conan. LOTRO is a decent game but it really does not have a lot of stickiness. When I look at the plan in this interview, I'm thinking that if they aren't planning to roll out another large area of Middle-Earth by December-January (Mirkwood, Moria), they're going to really bleed subs. Blizzard could dawdle with an expansion, given the large committed user base that they have. Turbine can't.

Turbine is known for adding content to their existing MMOs. In DDO, they were adding new areas every 2 months. Some of the those free updates also raised the max level and offered a new part of the world around 50% of the size of the original game.

So i wouldn't be too worried on this point.

[Ryuno]

I'm REALLY looking forward to the Monster Play update.

[Venkman]

It's not like they don't have another full in-book, what, 10 months left with which to play (I can't remember how long after they left Gondor it took to get back and liberate Hobbiton)? Considering this week's patch only brings us to the Fellowship leaving Rivendell at all, the only thing that could hold back new content is a serious decline in subscribers. And that decline would have to far exceed whatever cash they have on hand for all of the lifetime-subscription holders.

I doubt the June patch is going to be the norm. New zones and quests, sure. But a content patch like this every two months forever? Nah. They'll need more money eventually, so an expansion is likely.

I find it pretty convenient housing is coming this Fall. If they time it right they could have an expac on store shelves by end of November (technically making it a "spring" item, but ya know retailers would have it out before Christmas if they could). Housing is definitely worth purchasing an expac for, if done right of course.

Other than Housing though, I can't think of any system they've hinted at releasing that'd be worth an expac other than a crapload of new zones and quests.

[gravdiggr]

I wasn't there for all the updates to DDO, but considering that the subscription numbers for that game were probably lower than the numbers for LOTRO, i'd expect a similar content update scheme.

Here are the dates and content updates for DDO.

Feb 28, 2006 : Retail server start
Apr 5, 2006 : Module 1 - Dragon's vault (a multi step dungeon that leads eventually to the first raid content in game). Similar to how the first lotro update is adding a raid encounter. The difference here is that they offer content for mid level instead of just offering content for the end game as in DDO.
May 2006 : The harbor. They fixed the low level stuff to make it easier on new players.
June 2006 : Solo quests. Added a bunch of solo quests to make it easier on new players again.
July 12, 2006 : Module 2 - Twlight forge. New Race, new spells/enhancement for everyone. New system to offer incentives to do the hard content (patron system). Huge outdoor series of dungeons (9-10 if i recall correctly that chain)
August 2006 : Litany of the Dead part 1. 5 new dungeons (~1 hour each). Mid level stuff (6-8, level cap being 10 at that point)
September 2006 : Stormreach under assault. New hard content (level 10-12 while cap is still 10). Changes a part of the map as we knew it.
October 25, 2006 : Module 3 - Demon Sands : Raised level cap to 12. Added huge areas filled with quests to actually allow you to get to 12. Added consensual pvp system and an auction house.

I left at that point so i don;t know exactly what the rest of the updates look like. But still, from wiki,
December 2006 : Evil resurgent - changed the social panels. 6 new level 11 quests (similar to august update i guess)
January 2007 : Litany of the dead part 2. 5 new monsters, 5 new dungeons (8-9)
February 2007 : Revamp of the action pt system + 1 year anniversary content (looks smaller)
April 2007 : Module 4 - Reaver's bane. Level cap to 14. New spells/abilities. 2 new zones. 3 new types of quests (new objectives, changing the questing mecanism)

Future update before the end of 2007 : New race, new class (2 in plans, probably just 1 before the end of the year).


So as you can see, they do at least small updates every month (adding new content every month).
The big updates were 1 month, 3 month, 3 month, 5 month apart.

I'm expecting similar things with lotro. The first big content update being 1-1.5 month after release, and then new big content every 3 months. I guess we'll see