In-game legal system

[DarkSign]

As some of you may know, the 2d isometric MMO Socialotron. I played it for a short time, but couldnt really get into it. I mention it because for an MMO it has two really good ideas: Urges and an In-game legal system. I decided I didnt want to just copy and paste what they had so I thought I'd work on something different.

Assumptions
First assume you're in a post-apoc wasteland town
Second assume that the wasteland towns are player owned and run ala The Holy Grail (aka Shadowbane) or run by NPCs that run them the same as players will.

That having been said, 4 issues come to mind:
1) Deciding on what the law is
2) Enforcing the law
3) Trying the Accused
4) Punishment

Deciding what the law is:
At guild creation you could choose or vote for government type - or if its not a guild city but a general city type, this could be voted on at certain intervals (or of course by taking over via force). Once you have a government you would decide on what the laws were.

Categories pertinent to an MMO:

• Robbery
• Larceny
• Burglary
• Murder
• Contraband possession/sales
• Drug possession/sales/fabrication
• Bribery
• Kidnapping
• Treason
• Forgery
• Property Destruction
• Others

Some of those of course (treason) would have to be the result of completing quests going down a storyline path that evidenced what you were doing.
Otherwise commission of the crime itself would either a) leave evidence in detailed form like broken glass and fingerprints or b) inventory items which serve as evidence when presented to the authorities (inventory item widget that when presented causes NPC / PC reaction)

You'd want to give the city leadership the ability to choose which ones applied and some flexibility (e.g. certain drugs or weapons are contraband, others arent). This could be voted on by a group or set by a dictator.

Enforcing the Law
Guards and police would of course be set with sweep areas. Checking ID cards and "scanning inventory" would make for interesting interaction, allowing players to forge ID cards or wear disguises to get past the cops. It also means that non-lethal snares would be used a lot more often.

Trying the Accused
Here's where things get bogged down to a tedious level. How the hell do you set up an interesting legal system??
Socialotron has player elected judges and prosecutors...but I never got far enough to really see how it worked. Would players really want a job that they had to roleplay this much? Would they really meet for trials?

Punishment
While waiting for trial or after conviction,prison (sort of like CoH) would be an interesting option. It would mean you'd show up in jail (with the NPCs taking you back to jail with chances to escape?)...which would give a whole new area of gameplay. Perhaps you'd want to stay in to gain reputation or to see a certain quest-giver. Or maybe you'd just like to break out. With help from your guild mates?

Any thoughts from the mmo-believers out there?

[CmdrSlack]

The big problem that I see with a player-driven in-world legal system is that you either have it be totally open-ended, or you have a set of outcomes possible in the system's code.

In the open-ended system, the first question is "How open-ended?" Do you allow for things like jury nullification? Let's say Player A is accused of murdering Player B.  Player B is a widely known asshat and most people wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire. The evidence is so utterly damning that no matter how people feel about Player B, it is logically impossible for a verdict of guilty to be valid. However, because people thought Player B should die in a car fire, they still have the option of saying, "In this case the law does not fit the "reality" of the situation, and therefore, we find Player A not guilty." In a hard-coded system, this would be unpossible because the procecutor's delivery of the evidence items would limit the jury's votes to murder or manslaughter.

At some level, it seems you'd need hard-coded rules to assist player-prosecutors and judges with the "learning the rules of law" bit. For instance, the difference between larceny and robbery is a "highly technical" legal distinction. (The use of force.) Similarly, burglary has a specific common-law definition that involves things like, "the breaking into the dwelling place of another, at night." The system could be simply coded to include the breaking into of anyone's owned structure at any time of day, but that seems to be a bit of "court on rails." For a really interesting player justice system to be a game instead of annoying button-clicking, it would seem that you'd need the option to "lawyer" the charges.

Meh, I had more thoughts, but I've been drafting this while cleaning the house.  So I guess that's it for now.

[Kail]

1- Personally, I've never seen Player Justice work quite right.  The problem is that the real-life justice system is supposed to prevent people from committing crimes, but a game dev has way more control over his world.  If you as a game dev don't want people committing robberies or murders, then why are you programming in the option to do so, but then punishing people for using it?  You're hitting both sides here: on the one hand, people are going to be pissed and stop playing because they keep getting murdered, and on the other, people are going to be pissed and stop playing because they keep getting thrown in jail every time they murder someone.  Who's having fun here?  It seems a bit like you're putting in a legal system just so that you can say that you have a legal system, not because it makes the game more fun for anyone.

2- I'm not sure how much of your system is supposed to be automated and how much is supposed to be players doing their own legwork.  I can't see players forming a real, working police force; it's just way too much tedium.  I'm sure it would be fun for a day or two, but you've got guards and police set up there like they're supposed to be standing around for hours on end checking ID cards and things... who in their right mind is going to enjoy that?  You'd have to pay them an insane amount of gold (or whatever your in-game currency is) to put up with that, and that's going to end up putting a massive drain on the guild funding this venture.  And if this is all hard coded, it's going to be difficult to get it working flexibly enough.  I'm thinking of something like Morrowind, where you can click in the wrong place, accidentally pick up someone else's spoon, and suddenly everyone in the bar attacks you for committing theft, but on the other hand if you know the quirks of the guard AI, you can slaughter an entire town without repricussions.

3- Punishment:  How are you going to punish players?  Every punishment I've ever heard for this kind of thing has either been extremely pointless (a day in jail, for example) so that it's not going to deter anyone from committing a crime, or it's prohibitively harsh (like a permadeath execution) so that nobody will be using it except as a tool for griefing other people.

[DarkSign]

At some level, it seems you'd need hard-coded rules to assist player-prosecutors and judges with the "learning the rules of law" bit. For instance, the difference between larceny and robbery is a "highly technical" legal distinction. (The use of force.) Similarly, burglary has a specific common-law definition that involves things like, "the breaking into the dwelling place of another, at night." The system could be simply coded to include the breaking into of anyone's owned structure at any time of day, but that seems to be a bit of "court on rails." For a really interesting player justice system to be a game instead of annoying button-clicking, it would seem that you'd need the option to "lawyer" the charges.

Being a lawyer myself, I agree with this. You're right about the technical distinctions, however they're not as hard to separate as you'd think. Robbery of course would require a drawn weapon (gun, knife, or even threat) while larceny really just amounts to theft of something (As a side note i really dont think people appreciate how important animations are...even things like brandishing a weapon).

Lawyering, jousting back and forth, digging up factual and legal dirt can be both really fun and dismally boring. That's why I see the opportunity yet struggle with how to do it well.

If you as a game dev don't want people committing robberies or murders, then why are you programming in the option to do so, but then punishing people for using it?  You're hitting both sides here: on the one hand, people are going to be pissed and stop playing because they keep getting murdered, and on the other, people are going to be pissed and stop playing because they keep getting thrown in jail every time they murder someone.  Who's having fun here?

I think a lot of people actually. I think you're missing the bigger picture. It's fun to play cops and robbers. You set up the chess pieces just to knock them down over and over.  Making drugs is fun by itself, but selling them and avoiding the cops is even more fun. Assassinating a high-level political NPC then stealthing through guards would be worth the chance of getting put in jail Id gather too.

Perhaps I make it a bit more on rails for the sake of brevity and fun. How about this:
You get caught and taken to jail. You're given time to interact with NPCs or break out. Even if we do some sort of "Star Chamber" high-drama situation where you plead your own case, Im just not sure how  plead the case other than trading bits of inventory item evidence.

Can anyone think of other games (even single-player) with legal systems?

[Kail]

Can anyone think of other games (even single-player) with legal systems?

With courts and trials and things, not really (except for things like Phoenix Wright, where the game is ABOUT the legal system and nothing else, or something like Chrono Trigger or Neverwinter Nights 2, where the "trial" is just a scripted story event).

As for cops, I think there's a few games with those.  All the Elder Scrolls games I've played (Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion) have legal systems, to a degree (guards chase you, and will either fine you or throw you in jail, and if you go to jail you can either serve your term or try to break out).  Thief 3 has one, I think, where if you get caught by the guards, you get put in prison and have to break out (or something, I don't remember that well).  EVE Online has this, kind of, with security standing in Empire space; punishment for theft (flags you as killable to the guy you stole from), murder (CONCORD shows up and perforates you), and the bounty system.  Most of them just go with the "the cops are all-seeing and never wrong" explanation to eliminate the need for trials, though.

[Trippy]

Can anyone think of other games (even single-player) with legal systems?

As is often the case with this sort of online virtual world game system, MUDs experimented with this sort of thing first. In particular take a look at what LambdaMOO did:

http://jcmc.indiana.edu/vol2/issue1/lambda.html#Introduction

LambdaMOO is not the same sort of setup as your hypothetical Wasteland/Fallout-style game (it was designed as a social MUD, though people did actually design RPG-systems that ran within it) but it may give you some more ideas.

[eldaec]

Can anyone think of other games (even single-player) with legal systems?

MMO, A Tale in the Desert.

Single player, everything from Grand Theft Auto to that Japanese lawyer game I guess.

Many many games have a 'break rules and aggro guards' mechanic, which is effectively a legal system.



As for the original post, I think the idea of player defined laws is a good one, players running the administration of enforcement and a court system less so. It probably has too much potential for players to make the make the game unfun for others by getting bored and wandering off midway through.

I'd go for player defined laws, punishments would be administered automatically, either by making NPCs aggro (see EVE) or player pvp flagging (see, erm, EVE).

I thibnk you need to decide whether youi are more invested in having a wide range of relatively complex player selected law options (Atitd), or whether you want simple laws that players enforce themselves (EVE). If you want the depth in the variety and choice of laws, I'd have the system make lawbreaking simply impossible, if you want to concentrate on player enforcement, I'd limit the number of options available. This is all in the interest in ensuring that players can understand what the hell is going on around them. Also nothing stops you mixing the two of course.

[CmdrSlack]

Being a lawyer myself, I agree with this. You're right about the technical distinctions, however they're not as hard to separate as you'd think.

Oh I was just being sarcastic about the "highly technical" part.  I shoulda used green instead of scare quotes.

[DarkSign]

Oh I was just being sarcastic about the "highly technical" part.  I shoulda used green instead of scare quotes.

Np. Sometimes its hard to tell over the internet.

As for the original post, I think the idea of player defined laws is a good one, players running the administration of enforcement and a court system less so.

Thanks. I think maybe that's the answer...no court system at all. Just post-apocalyptic summary judgement, with opportunities for bribery or getting off by means of influence bartering.

[Viin]

If you leave the game open ended, players tend to make their own laws and enforce them in their own ways.

Allowing some 'trappings' of authority would go a long way to making it more enjoyable for the enforcers and the offenders.

(Look at Eve - it has it's own kill-the-bad-guy cops in high security area, but the other areas are policed and enforced by players who own the area. If they don't like you there, they kill you or chase you off).

Having the ability to eject someone from your territory or make them KOS for your guards/clan without game-driven repercussions to the 'authority' pretty much makes for an in-game player driver legal system.

[DarkSign]

Right - so give them a mechanism for setting laws (possibly enforceable by NPC e.g. inventory check) and a mechanism for punishing them themselves.
So for an offense that wouldnt be punishable by death, players could ban them for a certain number of days, exact a fine, or put them in prison for a set number of days (from which they could escape or stay and speak to quest NPCs).

That seems like it just might work. Thanks guys.

[Hoax]

Seriously everyone should have played at least a week of Face of Mankind back when it was free and had a population.  It was a very interesting study in online behavior.

The cops and military were actual player factions.  With no system in place to encourage or help them to do their "job".  The only thing they got was one game location other factions couldn't travel to.  The police could also /arrest but first they had to incap the person (w/ non lethal attacks) or the person had to put their hands up using a / command.

Even under these conditions, with the entire populace armed to the teeth and nothing really to do but exploit the market or kill people in the entire game.  A large number of people tried to be good cops.  There were also bad cops, power tripping cops and the military goon squads.  Really they only managed to maintain some semblance of law and order in one game location which became the hub of all market activity for everyone.  But still it was a pretty cool attempt.

It was pretty awesome though it almost never worked it provided endless entertainment. Too bad the game itself was so fucked up.

[DarkSign]

Seriously everyone should have played at least a week of Face of Mankind back when it was free and had a population.

I was having computer problems at the time and thought a mate of mine would relay the experience. He didnt :(

The cops and military were actual player factions.  With no system in place to encourage or help them to do their "job".  The only thing they got was one game location other factions couldn't travel to.  The police could also /arrest but first they had to incap the person (w/ non lethal attacks) or the person had to put their hands up using a / command.

So with no carrot or reward they played cops anyway? Interesting. The fun of being the cop was cool enough, eh?
What was done with the person arrested once they were incapacitated? What would you suggest instead?

Really they only managed to maintain some semblance of law and order in one game location which became the hub of all market activity for everyone.  But still it was a pretty cool attempt.

So what would have helped fix the FoM situation? The ability to call upon NPC troops to lock things down?

[Hoax]

With less then zero reward, the cops were always at fault for abusing their powers or not doing enough.  They were also constantly targets of suicide grenade attacks and raids by unlawful factions.  There were still a bunch of people who played cops, not the largest faction but one of the bigger ones.  They did get constant action though so it makes some sense.

The military on the other hand constantly power-tripped used lethal force and ran around acting like they were the good guys.  There were even fights between cops and military because the military was shooting people and the cops were trying to not have people die in Brooklyn (the main market area they patrolled).  Sometimes they helped the police sometimes they hindered them.

If somebody was arrested they were sent to a total broken prison planet place, where inmates would get grief killed by cops/military or they could kill themselves to get out of prison.  Really there wasn't enough penalty to create a fear of going to prison.

I think the cops deserved to have some help to control areas the game felt should be safer districts.  When it was about to go p2p they were introducing npc turrets that would fire on people attacking the cops or something along those lines.  But really like all completely wild-west systems it just worked itself out.

For quite some time the two most "evil" factions (mercenaries and crime syndicate) created a super-safe market zone on one of there territories because they would kill the fuck out of anyone who screwed around.  They refused to allow cops or military to enter the zone as well as any faction they were fighting at the time.  They also killed and denied access to top producers from other factions meaning they controlled most of what product got on the safe market.  Allowing their producers to make most of the money.  It was a smart setup but eventually the military raided it so often and the mercs gave up on it because they thought they were doing all the work protecting it.

The thing with fixes is, they usually just create more problems.  They needed to close some loopholes in prison and perhaps give the LAPD a secure area where they could regroup, rearm and heal (the police station had no defenses and was never used except for RP meetings to my knowledge).

FOM's problems weren't with the nature of the game they were with the gameplay itself.  There weren't enough activities to keep people busy not shooting each other.  Even worse the combat itself was sort of weak, with a super punitive cone of fire that basically took all the skill out of fighting.

The point of bringing up FOM is, you get memorable moments and stories from giving the players the ball and saying "run with it".  I can't tell that many stories about WoW, FFXI or EQ1.  Nothing memorable really happened.  I can still retell the entire story of SB's Scorn server from launch, through R30's dominance to the tyranny of the LAPD alliance event for event from my perspective.  That shit sticks with you.  The time I got some l33t drop in some diku clone.  Not so fucking much.  I can tell a few sort of funny WoW pvp stories from pre-BG's but thats it.

Honestly I have no idea what the original subject of this thread was... law/order in MMO's?