LOTRO TAXI to victory lasted two weeks

[Hound]

Not expecting a reply here but just what new things  did WoW bring to the table? I cannot for the life of me think of a single thing, unlless the fact that it was soloable to 60 and had quest oriented game play could be considered innovative.

Rest exp.

I can buy that, however I don't think that qualifies for the phrase "a lot", I can also half way agree to Darniaq's reply also but I think they could be summed up in the term "solo gameplay".

Back to the OP I am seeing very little bleed from my guild, some drops of course, but nothing like the exodus of guild mates what I saw in SWG and EQII after the free 30. Also I turned on general chat last evening and noticed quite a few obvious newbie questions for whatever that counts for. I think the game is doing OK, perhaps not as well as I had predicted but pretty darn good regardless. About 60 or 70 percent of the people I know in real life and from other boards that tried it during the open beta purchased it and of those I would say 75% are playing after the free thirty.

[Abel]

For all my opinion is worth, LotR turned out to be surprisingly good and one of the better MMO's out there atm. That it didn't kill WoW is perfectly normal and not in the slightest way an indication that it isn't a success.

It'll be several more years before a WoW-killer appears anyhow. WoW is what one of the best managed and most talented studio's could produce with as big a budget as they could amass, it'll have to be technically antiquated before it'll be surpassed in it's genre.

[Riggswolfe]

For all my opinion is worth, LotR turned out to be surprisingly good and one of the better MMO's out there atm. That it didn't kill WoW is perfectly normal and not in the slightest way an indication that it isn't a success.

It'll be several more years before a WoW-killer appears anyhow. WoW is what one of the best managed and most talented studio's could produce with as big a budget as they could amass, it'll have to be technically antiquated before it'll be surpassed in it's genre.

FWIW I believe WOW may have finally hit its peak. For instance, on my old server, Icecrown, alot of the "big names" are gone now. Some whole guilds are gone too. I'm also starting to get "please come back for 10 days" emails and the other day I recieved a Burning Crusade CD in the mail.

As for what it brought to the table: solo play to 60, rest xp, and it removed most of the mmo cockblocks.

[Falconeer]

What LotRO brought to the table:

- a Story. The first traditional/diku MMORPG where you play a story-mode exactly as in single player ones. In LotRO you don't play to get to level 50 just because it's cool. You play to advance the story.

Why everyone keeps ignoring or underrating this?

[Venkman]

Because most LoTRO players came from other MMORPGs which do not feature this so strongly. It's one of the issues of LoTRO that it came 10 years too late. This genre, heck, the roots of all RPGs should have come from Tolkien. Instead everything came from interpretations of stuff he put in place. LoTRO could not come this late to the party without following those same rules, and as such is largely being played the same way others are.

No matter how good the story, reading it does not fundamentally reward the player. I imagine most people skip right to the objectives just as they have done in every other MMORPG since the days they had to decipher inline text prompts from early EQ1.

[Falconeer]

No matter how good the story, reading it does not fundamentally reward the player.

Couldn't this be said for ANY RPG (Japanese and Console ones included) out there?
I mean: of course you can ignore the story and play it as any other regular quest in any other MMORPG. But the point is not what you can NOT do with the tool, just what it brings to the table. Seems to me like this is a new and a big addition, regardless the numbers of subscription it will bring to LotRO.

We are "saluting" rest xp as innovation while saying LotRO didn't bring anything new to the table. Serious?

[Trippy]

What LotRO brought to the table:

- a Story. The first traditional/diku MMORPG where you play a story-mode exactly as in single player ones. In LotRO you don't play to get to level 50 just because it's cool. You play to advance the story.

Why everyone keeps ignoring or underrating this?

FF XI has a "story-mode" too, complete with cut-scenes.

[Falconeer]

Couldn't see any of it in the 15 levels I inflicted myself in 2004.
LotRO starts with the story and moves from that. It's the first thing you see, it grows with you, it accompanies your char for all the 50 levels, gives spectacular rewards and a big part of it is usually soloable.
Can't remember anything similar in my brief experience in FFXI.

[Trippy]

Couldn't see any of it in the 15 levels I inflicted myself in 2004.
LotRO starts with the story and moves from that. It's the first thing you see, it grows with you, it accompanies your char for all the 50 levels, gives spectacular rewards and a big part of it is usually soloable.
Can't remember anything similar in my brief experience in FFXI.

Quest givers in FF XI didn't have giant ! or rings above their heads but each nation has its own series of story-line quests and there are other non-nation specific ones as well.

[Falconeer]

Cmon Trippy.
EQ1 has a storyline too. It has even a UI button for the storyline stuff. It's not the same!
I am not too fond of FFXI as I said, couldn't bring myself to play more than 15 levels.
But the fact that I have to look for the storyline, as opposed to a game that revolves around it, makes a big difference. Hell, I could be wrong but you can't even enter one of the high level overland zones (eastern Angmar, a regular overland part of the world, not an instance or something) if you haven't cleared step 5 of Book VI story quest. You HAVE to play the story in LotRO. You can avoid reading the text but you can do it in every CRPG since the invention of GUIs.

Looks to me like LotRO is the first MMORPG to put complete emphasis on the storyline, to the point it often PLAYS like a traditional (singleplayer) RPG. I really think it definitely brought something to the table, something a few crpg fans I know awaited for a long time. 

[Venkman]

But the point is not what you can NOT do with the tool, just what it brings to the table

Actually, that's wrong. MMORPGs prove you can. You don't need to read anything in the "RPG" nor talk to anyone in the "Multiplayer" component of WoW or LoTRO in order to win the game. Some would say this would result in a "weaker" MMORPG experience, but that's subjective.

I'm not up on general RPGs at all, but try and imagine getting through, say, KotOR without reading the story. You physically can't because the UI requires you make decisions that absolutely affect the outcome. This sort of decisioning tree has continually be reduced through the years in DIKUs to the point where except for PvP and diplomacy, about the only decision one needs to make is how much time to invest in a pre-planned path.

Even LoTRO, which I love, doesn't require much in the way of decisions. You either do something or choose to ignore something. There's no real counterbalancing, even of the weak variety like EQ1 factions. The story is there as window dressing for people who care more. But it's not a functional requirement of game play.

[Numtini]

LOTRO's epic storyline is fairly similar to the FFXI one except there's far far more content to it, it's multiple linked quests for each section, and the storyline is a lot better. It also doesn't have any game mechanic that I'm aware of--if my memory serves the FFXI ones were better known as points where you were blocked from levelling than they were for the storyline.

[Venkman]

Didn't AC2 have storyline instances too, that ended with cinematics? I just remembered that for some reason but didn't last long enough in the game to experience them.

[Falconeer]

I'm not up on general RPGs at all, but try and imagine getting through, say, KotOR without reading the story. You physically can't because the UI requires you make decisions that absolutely affect the outcome. This sort of decisioning tree has continually be reduced through the years in DIKUs to the point where except for PvP and diplomacy, about the only decision one needs to make is how much time to invest in a pre-planned path.

There are RPGs where you have to make decisions and RPGs where you don't. It's not a matter of which ones are good and which one aren't. In EQ2 there were lots of quests were you had to choose answers related to the lore or the text, but that wasn't a particularly good example of story-driven MMORPG, no matter the "choices". In LotRO, as in most quest driven singleplayer RPGs, you just need to read the direction and the name of the mob/item you need to find. Story, if you feel like that, it's fluff in both of them. Again, the proof would be my kid, who completed a couple of CRPGs without being able to read English just by whacking and going trough it, and myself, who completed my share of JRPGs in Japanese back in the days.

Look Darniaq, if you want to prove that LotRO is not on par with good singleplayer RPGs, then I agree.

The argument rose when it was pointed out that LotRO didn't bring anything new to the table while WoW did.
My point was just that there is something new to the table here, especially (but not only because) when the bar is set so low as rest xp and soloability, but due to LotRO not selling millions of boxes, this new feature is being overlooked, underrated, and labeled as "meh" at best.

That said, this conversation is too fatiguing. I will go get my rest XP.

[Nebu]

Here's the problem: In WoW and LotRO you don't really need to even bother with reading the story... and I'm sure most people don't.  Why?  Because some guy down the road will appear with a "!" over his head at a point after you've completed some rudimentary task.  

The element that I miss from the RPG's of old was that you had to read and understand the plot and story line in order to progress through it.  The game didn't hold your hand through the experience, but rather expected you to understand the lore and solve the problem for yourself.  There's none of that in today's games.  It's all "click NPC A, follow steps, return for loot/coin/exp".  EQ had smatterings of this and players found it an obstacle.  If you bothered to talk to NPC's in EQ, you'd often get a feel for their role in the story and you weren't all that surprised when they gave you a quest later that followed their position.  Today's gamer won't be bothered with reading text.  They want a little "?" that means I HAVE A QUEST OMGLOLZERS!!!.

I'm willing to bet that if you quizzed the playerbase right this minute, that they couldn't tell you anything specific about the majority of quests they've done unless something about it was close to a plotline they saw in the movies.  They click, grab the quest, follow the laundry list, and get their carrot.  DING GRATZ!  (and all that)

[Chimpy]

I may have missed this, but what exactly is a "TAXI to victory"?

[Nebu]

I may have missed this, but what exactly is a "TAXI to victory"?

A little history lesson.

<see Lum's comments around 21:16>

[shiznitz]

Never gets old.

[Nebu]

[20:31] <@Lum_> DID ANYONE ACTUALLY PLAY THIS PIECE OF DOGSHIT

[20:31] <@da_slog> is supposed to be hard

[20:31] <@Lum_> fuck hard

[20:31] <@da_slog> oh

[20:31] <@Lum_> that's DEREK SMART stupid

Priceless.

[Venkman]

His CAPS key looked like it broke :)

In LotRO, as in most quest driven singleplayer RPGs, you just need to read the direction and the name of the mob/item you need to find. Story, if you feel like that, it's fluff in both of them.

Look Darniaq, if you want to prove that LotRO is not on par with good singleplayer RPGs, then I agree

Not what I'm trying to prove at all. Nor am I trying to valuate between good and bad RPGs. I don't know a thing about the recent genre and don't really care about it.

All I'm pointing out is that LoTRO is no more unique for its storyline than MMORPGs that preceded it. The use of "storyline" is a nice marketing message wrapped around a DIKU. And maybe that contributed to some of their current success. But once you get into the game, unless you are predisposed to care about the story already, you're not going to care.  Because the game doesn't require you to.

That is my core issue with claims that LoTRO brought story to MMORPGs, and with story in general. Until it matters in an MMORPG, as in, part of the game mechanic, it's just a thin veneer ("veneer!") of arguable relevance. I've been complaining about this for years though :)

[Chimpy]

I may have missed this, but what exactly is a "TAXI to victory"?

A little history lesson.

<see Lum's comments around 21:16>

Thank you. That was quite an entertaining read.

Now that I know what a TAXI TO VICTORY! is all about, I need to figure out what it has to do with this thread.......aw fuck it, figuring that out would be like Lum driving a tank, nigh impossible.

[Falconeer]

Darn!
Not just the storyline. From instances, solo instances and places you have to unlock to keep on dikuing (not end-gaming), the game is built around the main quest. It's not about the text. Ignore that, and you still have a mmorpg where there's a huge, rewarding, purposeful and accesible main quest to follow from level 1 to 50. That's a first to me.

[Der Helm]

Darn!
Not just the storyline. From instances, solo instances and places you have to unlock to keep on dikuing (not end-gaming), the game is built around the main quest. It's not about the text. Ignore that, and you still have a mmorpg where there's a huge, rewarding, purposeful and accesible main quest to follow from level 1 to 50. That's a first to me.

Quick question. Is the overall storyline the same for all races and classes ? Or are there major differences ?

[HaemishM]

Now that I know what a TAXI TO VICTORY! is all about, I need to figure out what it has to do with this thread

Nothing and no one. Hrose is just VIKLAS!-ing. He wants LotRO to fail so he can gloat about it on a blog that is not this board.

As for the derail, it's much more entertaining than Hrose gloating delusionally about things said in other places on the Interweb that is not this board.

[CmdrSlack]

Darn!
Not just the storyline. From instances, solo instances and places you have to unlock to keep on dikuing (not end-gaming), the game is built around the main quest. It's not about the text. Ignore that, and you still have a mmorpg where there's a huge, rewarding, purposeful and accesible main quest to follow from level 1 to 50. That's a first to me.

Quick question. Is the overall storyline the same for all races and classes ? Or are there major differences ?

Each race has its own chain at the outset of the game...then they all merge together when you get to Bree.

[tmp]

Here's the problem: In WoW and LotRO you don't really need to even bother with reading the story... and I'm sure most people don't.  Why?  Because some guy down the road will appear with a "!" over his head at a point after you've completed some rudimentary task.  

The element that I miss from the RPG's of old was that you had to read and understand the plot and story line in order to progress through it.  The game didn't hold your hand through the experience, but rather expected you to understand the lore and solve the problem for yourself.  There's none of that in today's games.  It's all "click NPC A, follow steps, return for loot/coin/exp".

Interestingly enough, *one* of early LotRO quests is of this "think for yourself" variety. Player is asked by few hundred year old ghost to find a ring which was lost somewhere "close to black rock, near the barracks gate". The catch is (and the quest text indicates it) there is no barracks in "modern Bree" anymore. The solution is to head to *old* part of town and search ruins there that include large, flashing rock at that point.

Not surprisingly this quest is the single most queried about thing in the game 'advice' channel, with typically 5-10 people asking for help to solve it, per hour.

[zubey]

Another good example of the "think for yourself" type of quest in LotRO is the Loremaster's level 15 class quest.

In it, you're supposed to find a certain book in an instanced library (solo).  You're given one page (of 3) of hints to how the books might be catalogued. 

Hurdle 1)  If you're smart, you'll deduce from the quest text how you might get the other two pages before you even enter the instance.

Hurdle 2)  Once you get all three pages, you need to deduce from the coded catalog where the book is stored.

The catch is, while you're searching in the instanced library, patrols of goblins of ever-increasing levels (and they become a pair of lvl 30 elites pretty fast) start entering the library.  You can't brute force it by killing the goblins as you search each and every bookcase.  (Though, some people have ways to use particular Loremaster abilities to work around them).  Blindly rushing into this quest will almost certainly mean one or more deaths.

Sure, you could google the bookshelf location, but if you want a nice little old school mental challenge, it's there for you.

[palmer_eldritch]

Here's the problem: In WoW and LotRO you don't really need to even bother with reading the story... and I'm sure most people don't.  Why?  Because some guy down the road will appear with a "!" over his head at a point after you've completed some rudimentary task. 

The element that I miss from the RPG's of old was that you had to read and understand the plot and story line in order to progress through it.  The game didn't hold your hand through the experience, but rather expected you to understand the lore and solve the problem for yourself.  There's none of that in today's games.  It's all "click NPC A, follow steps, return for loot/coin/exp".

Interestingly enough, *one* of early LotRO quests is of this "think for yourself" variety. Player is asked by few hundred year old ghost to find a ring which was lost somewhere "close to black rock, near the barracks gate". The catch is (and the quest text indicates it) there is no barracks in "modern Bree" anymore. The solution is to head to *old* part of town and search ruins there that include large, flashing rock at that point.

Not surprisingly this quest is the single most queried about thing in the game 'advice' channel, with typically 5-10 people asking for help to solve it, per hour.

As I recall, the ghost even suggests you speak to another NPC who will drop a very heavy hint about where the rock is. But the NPC in question doesn't have a gold ring over its head, so . . .

Zubey, wait until you try the level 30 loremaster quest, if you haven't already. The player needs knowledge of places they have visited in the past to solve it (I hope that's only an extremely mild spoiler). I admit, I ended up cheating on that one and looking it up, but I imagine it would be very satisfying indeed to anyone who had really paid attention to the world.

[Venkman]

Each race has quests that converge on Bree, but each Class continues to have their own quests.

The catch is (and the quest text indicates it) there is no barracks in "modern Bree" anymore

I loved this quest. I couldn't get "Marty, you're just not thinking fourth dimensionally!" outta my head :)

It's not about the text. Ignore that, and you still have a mmorpg where there's a huge, rewarding, purposeful and accesible main quest to follow from level 1 to 50. That's a first to me.

For me too. I can't think of another game that has that Epic series. I have no idea if it sees us all the way through 50. It's a long multi-step quest though, one of the longest I've seen. All I ask is that this quest series not be elevated to some new height of experience never seen before. It's not like exclamation points over character heads, or XML UIs, or Bazaar's, or the trade window, or dozens of other things that were at some point introduced into a game and which fundamentally altered what one could expect from future games.

[Tmon]

The riddle quest series in Rivendell is similar to the ghost one in Bree in that you are challenged to think a bit more than is the norm or at least seem to be.  However,  in the end both end up being more about running around looking for something flashing.  In the Rivendell series, you're given a riddle and told that the answer is an item that can be found in Rivendell.  which sounds good even though the riddles aren't super hard, they do require some thinking.  The problem is that when you solve the riddle you end up running all over the freaking valley hoping something will flash on mouse over or trying to buy somthing similar from a vendor.   Heck in the Rivendell quest you don't even save time by thinking it through and solving the riddle because you still have to find the damn thing, at least in the ghost quest you are given an actual hint to the location of the next step.

[Margalis]

The story of the Chains of Promethea expansion in FFXI is apparently quite good. (I'm about to start it so I can't speak firsthand)

Anyway I already read LOTR, why do I care about the story in the game? I'm all for a good story but I'd prefer one that I hadn't read before and that hadn't already been rehashed 100 times.

[DraconianOne]

I'm willing to bet that if you quizzed the playerbase right this minute, that they couldn't tell you anything specific about the majority of quests they've done unless something about it was close to a plotline they saw in the movies.  They click, grab the quest, follow the laundry list, and get their carrot.  DING GRATZ!  (and all that)

Probably right but I'd say that's more to do with the conditioning of the playerbase about the inconsequential nature of the quests in games like this.  I don't know if you've been playing LOTRO at all but many of the quests that are not part of the main plot are not only inspired by the books but also run in parallel to the main storyline.  Also, while there may be seperate chains, a lot of the quests are all linked by common story themes.  For example (and if you've read the books this isn't too much of a spoiler) a lot of the early Bree/Shire related quests are to do with Sharkey and his group of bandits moving in on the lands.  Then there are other little quests like one where the mayor of Michel Delving in the shire sends you to get money to help repair the town hall roof.  This seems to be of not much note but this quest is based on one line in the book which mentions this event. 

[CmdrSlack]

Anyway I already read LOTR, why do I care about the story in the game? I'm all for a good story but I'd prefer one that I hadn't read before and that hadn't already been rehashed 100 times.

It's not the story from LOTR.  It takes place in parallel with the Fellowship and its stuff, but IIRC, they haven't even left Rivendell yet when you get into the storyline.

[HRose]

Third weak after release and HRose posts showed it was still at number 4 in the US. Second weak after release they were number 3 http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/790/790642p1.html Vanguard had dropped to number 6 in its third week and did not have a new release above it besides WOW:BC unlike LotRO. By the fourth week it was out of the top 10.

top-10 best selling PC games list for the week of May 20-26th

    1) World Of Warcraft - Vivendi - $18
    2) World Of Warcraft: Burning Crusade Expansion Pack - Vivendi - $39
    3) Command & Conquer 3: Tiberium Wars - Electronic Arts - $49
    4) The Sims 2 Seasons Expansion Pack - Electronic Arts - $30
    5) Starcraft: Battle Chest - Vivendi - $19
    6) Lord of the Rings Online: Shadows Of Angmar - Midway - $49

[CmdrSlack]

OH NOES!!!  CLEARLY LOTRO IS DOOMED!~



VIKLAS!