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Author Topic: Microsoft Surface - oooooohh shiny!!!  (Read 27732 times)
Merusk
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Reply #35 on: June 02, 2007, 07:43:08 PM

It's nice, but to most people it is nothing more than an evolutionary upgrade for people who use tablet PCs, and a decent tool for graphic artists.

You're thinking like mouse & kb are the be-all-end-all final say in interfaces.  They're not.

CAD, 3-d modeling, hell building design in general would benifit from this type of interface.  It requires new programs, yes, but this is superior to mouse + KB in those apps.

Yeah, the code-slinging IT sector types maybe not the best interface for them. However, it's much more intuitive for the rest of the population. Not to mention this type of interface avoids RSI and 'mouse wrist' a hell of a lot better.

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Venkman
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Reply #36 on: June 02, 2007, 08:48:57 PM

While it's nice to discuss high concept user experiences, that's all this really is. Look where it's headed. Look what it costs. Look who it's for. It's a nice toy, but I don't expect to replacing this or my next generation computer with one of these. Maybe when my 4 year old starts college or something.

Keyboard and mouse are not be-all. They are both non-intuitive ways to manipulate what one is seeing. But there's a reason they've been adopted and ingrained in our culture. That will change as whatever future version of Surface makes it to consumers in a form they can afford and find useful.

I liked the ideas of putting stuff on it to transfer data, but I've seen no less than four versions of that idea over the last six years, two that were just close-the-circuit power-supply pads and two which included data. Big shit. It's like this thing. I have one. Works well, if you don't mind bruising your fingertips. Probably will not take off in its current form. But the baseline tech means it can only project a keyboard. Or the Heliodisplay. Really cool, wish I had one at home. Good luck getting one.

There's a lot of R&D going on in human interface. Nobody's ever been happy with keyboard and mouse. Surface is on the conservative end of that spectrum. It's cool, but it's potential to change the world won't be measurable for half a decade at least. It's not even in the early-adopter category yet.

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Reply #37 on: June 02, 2007, 09:01:12 PM

Combined with good haptics I can see the table being used for some of those high concept things.  As just a glorified tablet, not so much.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
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Reply #38 on: June 02, 2007, 09:03:25 PM

Voice recognition is on the way. Unfortunately it is damn hard. I was doing optical charair ecoi nditonal recondition in the 70's I am doing it now. It takes hours. The Machines have 256K ram, That does not help. But voice recognition is the way to go. It is what is  natural. But OCR is proving that what humans do is not easily replicated in a machine.

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Reply #39 on: June 03, 2007, 10:48:49 AM

At first I saw this on the news and said "Oh cool!"  shocked
then they said M$FT had made it... so I wondered who they stole it from.  rolleyes
I think the only thing M$FT is good at is stealing other peoples shit and then FORCING you to use it.  undecided


Would someone please hurry up and port DirectX to Linux so we can be done with windows once and for all?
I mean really...
 Mob
Merusk
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Reply #40 on: June 03, 2007, 12:50:28 PM

At first I saw this on the news and said "Oh cool!"  shocked
then they said M$FT had made it... so I wondered who they stole it from.  rolleyes
I think the only thing M$FT is good at is stealing other peoples shit and then FORCING you to use it.  undecided


Would someone please hurry up and port DirectX to Linux so we can be done with windows once and for all?
I mean really...
 Mob
rolleyes

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bhodi
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Reply #41 on: June 03, 2007, 04:09:16 PM

Pro Tip: Any posts with $ for a S in Microsoft are automatically skipped.
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Reply #42 on: June 03, 2007, 04:28:08 PM

I am probably wrong here. Ya it is me. But part of the deal is you lay your camera on it and the pictures download, you lay your Ipod on it and it syncs. Its brain dead for the brain dead. Its touch screen and close distance RF and plug and pray all over again. Can we make a computer so dumb that Joe Sixpack can use it? Sure boss I can do that!

And?  That's a good thing.  Making using a computer more intuitive and easier for the average Joe is the fucking goal.  If you need to measure your epeen with esoteric bullshit then I'm sure any number of Unixes can accomodate your desires.

Yeah.  Turns out, Joe Sixpack has a lot of money.

Witty banter not included.
Selby
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Reply #43 on: June 03, 2007, 04:37:40 PM

Yeah.  Turns out, Joe Sixpack has a lot of money.
And there are alot more Joe Sixpacks out there than some people are willing to consider.  Bringing intuitive technology to the masses cheaply is how you win the game, not by keeping it non-intuitive or specialized and expensive.
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Reply #44 on: June 03, 2007, 05:43:47 PM

Pro Tip: Any posts with $ for a S in Microsoft are automatically skipped.

I only used that because standard ASCII doesn't have a pentagram as a character
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Reply #45 on: June 04, 2007, 02:11:23 AM

I have half an inkling that this is going to be like that period in like the early/mid-nineties where virtual reality was supposed to be the future of everything, until people realized it was crappy, expensive, and didn't do anything they needed.

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Reply #46 on: June 04, 2007, 03:06:10 AM

At first I saw this on the news and said "Oh cool!"  shocked
then they said M$FT had made it... so I wondered who they stole it from.  rolleyes
I think the only thing M$FT is good at is stealing other peoples shit and then FORCING you to use it.  undecided


Would someone please hurry up and port DirectX to Linux so we can be done with windows once and for all?
I mean really...
 Mob
Don't we auto-ban for this?  I was sure there was a rule somewhere.....

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Reply #47 on: June 04, 2007, 03:16:24 AM

Don't we auto-ban for this?  I was sure there was a rule somewhere.....

Aww, come on.  It's cute.  It's like taking a time machine back to the 1999/2000 era of Slashdot.

On second though, Slashdot is still pretty much like that.  Okay, ban the fucker.
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Reply #48 on: June 04, 2007, 07:05:48 AM

I have half an inkling that this is going to be like that period in like the early/mid-nineties where virtual reality was supposed to be the future of everything, until people realized it was crappy, expensive, and didn't do anything they needed.
Yea, that was sorta my point as well. It's fine to try and lead with technology, but it's the total user experience, including business model that matters. 1992 VR is today's Second Life, something that's successful. Wrap a VR room around some future iteration of SL that looks good and then you'll see successful VR.

It was actually this that got me started on MMORPGs in the first place. I was a big fan of VR stuff in the 90s. But it wasn't until UO when I started to learn just what people would want to do with the tech.
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Reply #49 on: June 04, 2007, 09:09:54 AM

At first I saw this on the news and said "Oh cool!"  shocked
then they said M$FT had made it... so I wondered who they stole it from.  rolleyes
I think the only thing M$FT is good at is stealing other peoples shit and then FORCING you to use it.  undecided


Would someone please hurry up and port DirectX to Linux so we can be done with windows once and for all?
I mean really...
 Mob
Don't we auto-ban for this?  I was sure there was a rule somewhere.....

So wait... you guys like Microsoft?  Did I miss a fad or something? or are those apple commercials having a bigger backlash than even I thought?
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Reply #50 on: June 04, 2007, 09:12:09 AM

So wait... you guys like Microsoft?  Did I miss a fad or something? or are those apple commercials having a bigger backlash than even I thought?

Everyone at f13 is obviously a Microsoft sycophant.


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Reply #51 on: June 04, 2007, 09:15:20 AM

So wait... you guys like Microsoft?  Did I miss a fad or something? or are those apple commercials having a bigger backlash than even I thought?

lollllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllz -.-
Venkman
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Reply #52 on: June 04, 2007, 09:50:57 AM

Drone 743 reporting in.

No, seriously, CharlieMopps, it's not about us liking Microsoft. It's that Microsoft bashing is so 90s (liike blind Mac love). We're in the ambivalent acceptance stage, leveraging a means to an end.
Tebonas
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Reply #53 on: June 04, 2007, 11:33:01 AM

Your problem is that all those hatefests have a fixed lifespan after which it goes into the next cycle. You could at least have gone and tried "Atari sucks, my Amiga rules you all. Tramiel for president" for real nostalgia. At least that comment had a specific date when it became obsolete after which it became "Amiga sucks, my Atari rules you all. Jack Tramiel for president" :-D
« Last Edit: June 04, 2007, 11:36:22 AM by Tebonas »
Morat20
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Reply #54 on: June 04, 2007, 11:44:43 AM

I have half an inkling that this is going to be like that period in like the early/mid-nineties where virtual reality was supposed to be the future of everything, until people realized it was crappy, expensive, and didn't do anything they needed.
You sink all that money into a million blind holes, and someone gets lucky -- and something changes the way we do business. (And probably not even remotely in the way anyone thought).

This stuff? Smarter, multi-touch screens and interfaces are the future. Somehow. People are starting to drop serious money onto it because they can see the basic outline (if you make your screen the control interface -- why bother with extra bits?), and sooner or later someone will get it "right" in a way that clicks with the masses.

Teachers (even in elementary school) LOVE smartboards and projectors. They'd eat this shit up. Gamers? Fuck that demo -- I can think of a million ways to handle it better than that idiot did, in ways that work so much better for me than a mouse and keyboard.

For multi-play on the same screen, I see a problem -- and I don't see controllers for consoles dying. (For that matter, I can see lots of times when having a touch-sensitive surface seperate from the monitor might be more workable than drawing directly on the screen).

But computers and technology are getting to the point where we can start using more intuitive inputs -- which include voice and touch -- and I'm not surprised people are sinking serious money into looking for a way that works. I couldn't tell if you if Surface will be anything more than an expensive toy with limited use -- but sooner or later, someone's going to make bank on something similiar.
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Reply #55 on: June 04, 2007, 12:42:01 PM

My wife would drop $$$ on at least one of those if she could read building plans on it, although it would have to be much larger.  Extra points for having a calculator in there so she didn't have to use one of those ancient desk calculators, and if she could pull up a window with Arbitrary PC Program, she just found her new desk.

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Reply #56 on: June 04, 2007, 01:05:09 PM

I'm to lazy to use the search feature, but this has come up before here -- I'll say again what I said then. Nothing will change until we go 3D, and even then, the switch only benefits people who need to model 3d directly.

On display:

2d displays won't be going away. There may be UI changes, but aside from when you are trying to model 3D, flatspace is perfectly fine for business applications. There will always be a computer screen and flatspace for most applications.

There won't be any revolution until we go to ubiquitous 3d imaging, either externally via a futuristic holo-cube type display, or with a slightly-less futuristic multiple 2d display false-perspective device. Or possibly you could try for direct neural induction, but that's wayyyy out there.

This would be for CAD/entertainment purposes only, and would probably start with military for training purposes, shift from there to CAD users for manufacturing, and then finally to the entertainment industry.

On input:

An interesting case study would be a mid 40's manager communication method with voicemail and speakerphone, and contrast that with the mid 20's new style of shooting off e-mails while chatting with two or three people at the same time. Text simply allows a co-ordination and time-savings that's unparalleled (at the expense of some intimacy, admittedly) and the keyboard suits the task admirably.

The monitor+keyboard is suitably ubiquitous and while not strictly intuitive, we have our first "real" generation growing up with it from birth. Many people can type faster and more conveniently than by recitation, which is why I'm surprised there are still serious pushes to make voice an input device.


Anyway, the issue really isn't display, at it's heart is input and modification of data -- aside from someone growing up with direct neural output device, mouse and keyboard and tablet are ubiquitous and good enough not to be preempted until the switch from 2d to 3d comes. And even then, it will ONLY be for 3d modeling -- CAD, architecture, modeling, and animation. What we have now is good enough that there won't be another true revolution until we figure out how to read the brain.

The fact is that moving the 'selection' device from a mouse which only requires a twitch to having to physically move your arms around simply does not give you any performance boost. You essentially have 'two' mice, and this does give you a bit more flexibility, however you're slower since you're required to move your entire arms.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2007, 01:08:44 PM by bhodi »
Venkman
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Reply #57 on: June 04, 2007, 02:23:47 PM

One thing often missed by "only for CAD" thoughts on 3D is just how much in life people would customize if they could. And considering that most things in life are 3D, I forsee a much greater need for 3D manipulation in the future than professionals in the field.
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Reply #58 on: June 04, 2007, 04:42:27 PM

One thing often missed by "only for CAD" thoughts on 3D is just how much in life people would customize if they could. And considering that most things in life are 3D, I forsee a much greater need for 3D manipulation in the future than professionals in the field.

Yes.

We have GUI, we're going for TUI.. Tactile User Interface.  3d display and touchscreen are 2 things that would help with this.

Oh noes, we need a new OS.

Microsoft sees this, and is working on it.

Yes, we have a generation learning on mice and keyboards.  That simply means they're going to have Carpal Tunnel and RSI much earlier. Mice are not "good" but they were simple analog devices.  We simply hold on to them because they're familiar.  If we'd had good, responsive touchscreen tech in the early 80s, Apple would have used those rather than mice.

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Reply #59 on: June 04, 2007, 04:54:05 PM

One thing often missed by "only for CAD" thoughts on 3D is just how much in life people would customize if they could. And considering that most things in life are 3D, I forsee a much greater need for 3D manipulation in the future than professionals in the field.

Yes.

We have GUI, we're going for TUI.. Tactile User Interface.  3d display and touchscreen are 2 things that would help with this.

Oh noes, we need a new OS.

Microsoft sees this, and is working on it.

Yes, we have a generation learning on mice and keyboards.  That simply means they're going to have Carpal Tunnel and RSI much earlier. Mice are not "good" but they were simple analog devices.  We simply hold on to them because they're familiar.
Actually mice *are* good. They did studies back in the 70s at Xerox PARC into various pointing devices and mice were the best back then and they still are today for general puprose manipulations (some artists like graphics tablets for graphics works).

Quote
If we'd had good, responsive touchscreen tech in the early 80s, Apple would have used those rather than mice.
No they wouldn't have. Touchscreens are incredibly imprecise compared to a mouse. Think about the "resolution" of your finger compared to a mouse, even one back then. Now think about having to hold your arm out constantly to point at things at the screen. Combine the two and you have one of the worst possible ways to manipulate things on screen.
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Reply #60 on: June 04, 2007, 05:11:18 PM

The fact is that moving the 'selection' device from a mouse which only requires a twitch to having to physically move your arms around simply does not give you any performance boost. You essentially have 'two' mice, and this does give you a bit more flexibility, however you're slower since you're required to move your entire arms.
It's also far more imprecise. Your hand and fingers are designed for fine motor control. Moving your arms around, not so much.
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Reply #61 on: June 04, 2007, 07:41:11 PM


What if it was a vertical concave multitouch screen? I didn't render in a keyboard/mouse but I think it would work pretty good if you had the option of using both interfaces. I'm not sure how that big of a screen would work in a business environment but it might be nice as an artist workstation, conferencing/airport workstation, or in internet cafes (and obviously gaming).

Mitsubishi has images of a similar prototype.

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Reply #62 on: June 04, 2007, 08:18:14 PM

Sticking your arms straight out to manipulate things on a screen is just a bad idea unless you have the shoulder muscles of a basketball player and even then it's far less efficient than moving a mouse around. Vertically oriented touch screens are fine for simple things like subway ticket dispensers or whatnot where pointing at huge on-screen buttons is more intutive than trying to manipulate a trackball or joystick or some other fixed pointing device (since mice wouldn't work in that sort of public display).

Having the touch screen in a horizontal position works better since you have some place to support your arms/hands while you are manipulating things on screen, rather than having to use your shoulder muscles to suspend them in the air, so it's far less tiring.
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Reply #63 on: June 04, 2007, 08:32:18 PM

I can see a horizontal touch screen being a bit of a pain in the neck (literally speaking).  Looking down at my hands for long periods of time just doesn't seem like it'd be comfortable.  I get a stiff neck even with an ordinary vertical monitor if it's not elevated up to eye level.

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Reply #64 on: June 05, 2007, 05:22:44 AM

The monitor+keyboard is suitably ubiquitous and while not strictly intuitive, we have our first "real" generation growing up with it from birth. Many people can type faster and more conveniently than by recitation, which is why I'm surprised there are still serious pushes to make voice an input device.
This is something I completely agree with.  There's no other method of communication which is faster and more efficient for me than using a keyboard and mouse right now.  I can type faster than I talk, especially with how I often lose my train of thought mid-sentence, or pause to think of whether I'm saying something correctly.  I don't know why, but I don't have that problem anywhere near as often on a keyboard.  It's one of the reasons I dislike voicechat in games, and why I prefer to talk over IRC, ICQ or AIM than to telephone someone or use a voip program to talk.  I don't talk as well as I type, I add 'um' and pauses in a lot..

On a more amusing note....you know this will happen.

Not to imply Windows or Microsoft-bashing, as I personally like the company and think we wouldn't have come as far as we have without them, if only because no one else ever marketed good ideas and simplification of computer operation effectively.

Anyway, this Surface thing is interesting because it presents new options in a commercial platform.  I'm sure it has a considerable number of excellent practical applications, many of which have already been touched on.  It will probably need refinement to be ideal for these things, and for other things we haven't yet considered, but for those that get used to it, it will be quite good, I bet.  The only trouble with new interfaces is that many of us I'm sure, will have considerable trouble learning to use them.  We've been using a keyboard and mouse for so many years that anything else is going to have a pretty high entry barrier, because it's going to need to entice us to actually learn how to interact with the computer more effectively than we already do, and by enough of a margin that we consider it worth taking the considerable effort it's going to require to get used to the interface enough for it to become as second-nature to us as a mouse and keyboard currently are.

One thing I can say - even if it doesn't enhance our primary computing, it may well become some sort of media-center for digital photos, music, etc.  I can certainly see a Surface table with its own Media Center type PC attached for the purpose of pictures, video, music, etc, being a common living-room feature in a number of years, assuming it's not prohibitively expensive.

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Reply #65 on: June 05, 2007, 06:44:58 AM

I keep thinking the subject says Microsoft Scarface.
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Reply #66 on: June 05, 2007, 10:42:27 AM

This is something I completely agree with.  There's no other method of communication which is faster and more efficient for me than using a keyboard and mouse right now.  I can type faster than I talk, especially with how I often lose my train of thought mid-sentence, or pause to think of whether I'm saying something correctly.  I don't know why, but I don't have that problem anywhere near as often on a keyboard.  It's one of the reasons I dislike voicechat in games, and why I prefer to talk over IRC, ICQ or AIM than to telephone someone or use a voip program to talk.  I don't talk as well as I type, I add 'um' and pauses in a lot..
I don't think voice will replay anything -- but supplement it. It's another form of input device -- and computers can already track input a hell of a lot faster than we can give it. Multi-touch + voice means I'm capable of giving three (two hands and my voice) forms of input simultaneously.

Vernor Vinge in Rainbow's End proposed wearable computers (basically built into your clothes) that projected onto contact lenses, and were controlled through body, finger, voice, and muscular movements. Fully configurable -- novice users would simply type on virtual keyboards, whereas expert uses could use simple (and almost unnoticeable) twitches to do far, far more.

One of the interesting aspects of Surface is that MS appears to be trying to create a back-end for all the myraids of wireless devices -- cellphones, PDAs, Blackberrys, digital cameras, etc -- drop them on the table and simply flick data back and forth without having to worry about protocols or configurations or file-types or anything like that. Basically using Surface as an abstraction layer to allow multi-device communication. Expanding on that would mean Surface -- your coffee table, basically -- would turn into a hub for your home. Control your TV, sound setup, work as a gaming station (you could choose where to project the signal -- TV or desktop), hub for your network of PCs, laptops, tablets, whatever.....heck, maybe even plop down your remote and have Surface automatically work out what TV and peripherals you have, and set itself up to control them.

Making it into a coffee table -- generally placed near your TV, in the main entertainment room of your home, makes sense. Multi-touch also makes sense -- you'd use it as a GUI where multiple people might be working at once. Someone channel surfing, someone else moving pics from their camera to their desktop or cellphone, etc.
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Reply #67 on: June 05, 2007, 02:56:52 PM

If you gave every business in the world today a bunch of computers with uber touchscreen/voice/3D/whatever technology, about 99.9% of them would shove them into the closet untouched.  They'd be too smart to waste time and money retraining all their employees to use completely unfamiliar interfaces that aren't going to increase productivity one bit.

Everything we saw done using Microsoft Surface in that video could be done faster and cheaper with a conventional interface.

And nobody is going to buy a coffee table for ten grand just because it can display photographs and play music.

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Reply #68 on: June 05, 2007, 03:20:32 PM

If you gave every business in the world today a bunch of computers with uber touchscreen/voice/3D/whatever technology, about 99.9% of them would shove them into the closet untouched.  They'd be too smart to waste time and money retraining all their employees to use completely unfamiliar interfaces that aren't going to increase productivity one bit.

Everything we saw done using Microsoft Surface in that video could be done faster and cheaper with a conventional interface.

And nobody is going to buy a coffee table for ten grand just because it can display photographs and play music.
Microsoft isn't betting anyone will. That's why they're being marketed to casinos and resteraunts. It'd be fairly trivial, for instance, to integrate in a menu system and games for customers to play into that thing. (Well, it'd take some doing -- but the software would be pretty much a one-time expense, as would the hardware).

As for retraining -- at least some of the demos I've seen are aimed at the basically computer illiterate. My mother, for instance, can't move a picture from her digital camera to her cell phone. Surface would make it a matter of a moving an icon -- something she CAN do.

I think you're confusing Microsoft's short-term and long-term goals with this thing. Short-term, it's to get them out there -- into casinos, a few resteraunts (Vegas grabbing this thing is a safe enough bet). Let the general public get a chance to play touchy-feely with it awhile while MS uses it as a vast proof-of-concept and test-bed.

As hardware gets cheaper and economies of scale start to kick in -- as well as Microsoft develops a stronger back-end and begins layering toolsets, functionality, and better automatic cross-communication between wireless devices -- you'll start to see it trickle into the homes of the early adopters. Microsoft can afford to be patient, and they're betting on something simple -- as wireless devices grow more powerful, people are going to need a hub for them to enable personal networking. The iPhone -- as was the Blackberry before it -- is an attempt to integrate multiple devices into a single system.

Microsoft is going the other way -- they're trying to develop a software solution, and the accompying hardware -- with the idea towards doing it all transparently, and trying to come up with an intuitive interface to use for it.

Give it a decade or so -- I suspect you'll find smart tables and desks edging into the hands of the early-adopters by then, with a price-point higher than a PC -- but lower than a good TV and Sound system.
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Reply #69 on: June 05, 2007, 05:29:53 PM

  There's no other method of communication which is faster and more efficient for me than using a keyboard and mouse right now.  I can type faster than I talk, especially with how I often lose my train of thought mid-sentence, or pause to think of whether I'm saying something correctly.  I don't know why, but I don't have that problem anywhere near as often on a keyboard.  It's one of the reasons I dislike voicechat in games, and why I prefer to talk over IRC, ICQ or AIM than to telephone someone or use a voip program to talk.  I don't talk as well as I type, I add 'um' and pauses in a lot..

You are not used to using your voice and speaking off the cuff.  You're used to typing. Folks who spend more time talking are much better at doing what you describe in a conversation but suck at typing in my experience.

Text is also far from the 'efficient' method of communication.. It lacks clarity of tone, subtlety and innuendo... thus green text on this very board.  It has it's uses, and it's strengths, to be sure.  However, those of society NOT social mal-adepts still prefer talking.

And fine, trip, replace "stylus pad" instead of 'touch screen.' 

Way - Yes, they would today.  Because things are still built around mice and keyboards.  There's no use for them in the current systems.   Of course, if you're only thinking about today in Technology, you've already lost because someone else is thinking 5, 10, 15 and 20 years from now at the least.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
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