Blizzard sues Peons4hire for spamming

[SnakeCharmer]

Edumacate me here...

Wouldn't the US government be interested in these companies due to the fact they are doing business (so to speak) in the US, collecting US dollars, but not paying US taxes?

Or is this one of those grey areas in the virtual world that hasn't been hammered out yet?

[pants]

Or is this one of those grey areas in the virtual world that hasn't been hammered out yet?

Grey areas.  I give Amazon a lot of international business because I don't have to pay local sales tax/GST/VAT which can be ~20% in some countries - meaning I don't pay any local taxes.  This is even more grey because there is no physical items being moved so local customs can't whack me with a 'pay us duty' notice. 

[CmdrSlack]

Edumacate me here...

Wouldn't the US government be interested in these companies due to the fact they are doing business (so to speak) in the US, collecting US dollars, but not paying US taxes?

Or is this one of those grey areas in the virtual world that hasn't been hammered out yet?

The IRS has taken note of the VW arena and RMT.  As far as I know it is still up to the individual to do the "right" thing and pay their taxes on their USD gains from RMT.  There was a bunch of sturm and drang about it a few months back, IIRC.

[Threash]

The ones they should be suing are the GaMeworker fucks who imply they are GMs on their spam.  "you know our gold is safe because it comes directly from GaMeworkers!", right fuckers.

[CharlieMopps]

Edumacate me here...

Wouldn't the US government be interested in these companies due to the fact they are doing business (so to speak) in the US, collecting US dollars, but not paying US taxes?

Or is this one of those grey areas in the virtual world that hasn't been hammered out yet?

Very specifically, I think whats going to really get the government involved are people that buy coin with real money, then enter the game and gamble (Eq2 slots machines and the Sims actually have gambling halls, etc...) and then resell their winnings. That kind of shits going to blow up in a developers face one day. "I gambled my retirement away in EQ2! I didn't know it was gambling! I'm sueing!!!!" Sounds silly now... but just wait.

[JoeTF]

Move company to southern Afghanistan and hire current staff as contractors?

[Simond]

Edumacate me here...

Wouldn't the US government be interested in these companies due to the fact they are doing business (so to speak) in the US, collecting US dollars, but not paying US taxes?

Or is this one of those grey areas in the virtual world that hasn't been hammered out yet?

The IRS has taken note of the VW arena and RMT.  As far as I know it is still up to the individual to do the "right" thing and pay their taxes on their USD gains from RMT.  There was a bunch of sturm and drang about it a few months back, IIRC.

Conversely, Remedial (former Goonswarm CEO in EVE) got hammered with an unexpected tax demand based on the (legitimate in EVE) timecards-for-ISK referral scheme Goonswarm has set up with one of the timecard sellers.

[CmdrSlack]

Edumacate me here...

Wouldn't the US government be interested in these companies due to the fact they are doing business (so to speak) in the US, collecting US dollars, but not paying US taxes?

Or is this one of those grey areas in the virtual world that hasn't been hammered out yet?

The IRS has taken note of the VW arena and RMT.  As far as I know it is still up to the individual to do the "right" thing and pay their taxes on their USD gains from RMT.  There was a bunch of sturm and drang about it a few months back, IIRC.

Conversely, Remedial (former Goonswarm CEO in EVE) got hammered with an unexpected tax demand based on the (legitimate in EVE) timecards-for-ISK referral scheme Goonswarm has set up with one of the timecard sellers.

If he was making a profit (even a small one), then yeah, I can see how the IRS may ask for its share.  Even bartered goods are taxable income.

[HaemishM]

This is all of a good thing. The spam was absolutely ridiculous, and I'm sure Blizzard's GM's got tired of being spammed with complaints about yet another faceless goldbot spam. Fuck Peons4hire or any other gold farming bitch outfit. They deserve to get shankfucked by large Zulu warriors.

[WayAbvPar]

My theory about how the gold sellers are now doing the spam thing:

It looks like you just need an email and solve a captcha to get a trial account.  I think that they figured out a way to automate it, autolog into the game, spam, delete character.  There is probably enough lag time before the account is banned that they can do a handful of servers on each account.

The hardest part might be automating solving the captcha, but that problem has been mostly solved.

If I'm right, this would mean that "account banning and credit card blacklist or game card revocation and loss" won't work, among other things.

I thought I read somewhere that they had nerfed trial accounts- they were only able to send /tells to characters who had spoken to them first. Between that and the new spam filter, I have only gotten 2 gold spams in the past week. Yay.

[Jayce]

My theory about how the gold sellers are now doing the spam thing:

It looks like you just need an email and solve a captcha to get a trial account.  I think that they figured out a way to automate it, autolog into the game, spam, delete character.  There is probably enough lag time before the account is banned that they can do a handful of servers on each account.

The hardest part might be automating solving the captcha, but that problem has been mostly solved.

If I'm right, this would mean that "account banning and credit card blacklist or game card revocation and loss" won't work, among other things.

I thought I read somewhere that they had nerfed trial accounts- they were only able to send /tells to characters who had spoken to them first. Between that and the new spam filter, I have only gotten 2 gold spams in the past week. Yay.

However, now I'm seeing randomly named characters in the Org bank/AH area using say spam.  However, they can't do that from the starting area, so at least they have to have a human or bot run there.  And the right-click report spam button seems to be working wonders.

[CharlieMopps]

The problem is, if you can buy the client for $10... You can setup your macro program to create a character, Spam a server, delete the character and then start it on another server. By the time the they figure out who you are and bann you, you've already hit 10 or more servers. All they have to do is get 1 buyer from all that and the accounts paid for itself. It's even easier in EQ2 because you can get the client NEW for $3 if its the origional EQ2 box without expansions.

[Righ]

Blizzard are doing something because people are opening tickets. When you get spammed, open a service ticket reporting the character. If you have an open ticket, edit it to add to the existing ticket.

[angry.bob]

Stop reporting people, let them spam yelling in Ironforge. Everytime you people think you've succeeded in "driving them out" they immediately come back with something more intrusive. They're now starting to spam group invites so you'll be getting invite pop-ups every 20 minutes or so.

RMT gold sales are a part of MMO*, and part of them forever, period. You lose, they win. Live with it. No matter what you do to try stopping them, it's just making them come up with something even more annoying than what they did before. Just think people, you were all sooooooo happy when they banned sales on Ebay. That's what started this mess in the first place. Stop while you're ahead.

There is absolutely nothing that any company, anywhere can do to stop that won't net them more account losses than retentions. They are here, and here forever.

[Lantyssa]

Blizzard should hire Blackwater to track them down.

[angry.bob]

Blizzard should hire Blackwater to track them down.

They're certainly doing a great job of cleaning up Iraq.

Seriously though, getting rid of, or even just reigning in gold dealers will be every bit as successful as the "War on Drugs" or ending prostitution.

[Righ]

They're now starting to spam group invites so you'll be getting invite pop-ups every 20 minutes or so.

Are they? I wouldn't know. My addons automatically close unsolicited duels and group invites. Don't you buy gold?

[Hellinar]

There is absolutely nothing that any company, anywhere can do to stop that won't net them more account losses than retentions. They are here, and here forever.

Can you point me to a company that has tested that theory? The thing that drives gold farming is the amount of gold a casual player with more cash than time typically makes, and the amount a gold a farm bot playing 24/7 in an optimized way can earn. The amount a bot can earn could easily be capped. Set the cap low enough, and farming is uneconomical even in China.

My theory is the account gains from casuals you would get by capping gold acquisition would way outweigh the account losses from bot like players who would reach the cap. Its a theory entirely without any evidence either way for it though. I've never heard of a MMORPG that tried it. Have you?

[Mandrel]

There is absolutely nothing that any company, anywhere can do to stop that won't net them more account losses than retentions. They are here, and here forever.

Can you point me to a company that has tested that theory? The thing that drives gold farming is the amount of gold a casual player with more cash than time typically makes, and the amount a gold a farm bot playing 24/7 in an optimized way can earn. The amount a bot can earn could easily be capped. Set the cap low enough, and farming is uneconomical even in China.

My theory is the account gains from casuals you would get by capping gold acquisition would way outweigh the account losses from bot like players who would reach the cap. Its a theory entirely without any evidence either way for it though. I've never heard of a MMORPG that tried it. Have you?

OK, so the farmers would just need more accounts, and the process would continue.  Heck, that would be playing into the hands of the farmers, as they would be more than willing to pay for more accounts to max the gold they could earn, and then sell it off to those who don't have multiple accounts.  Buying gold would give an even greater advantage to the players who did.

[angry.bob]

Are they? I wouldn't know. My addons automatically close unsolicited duels and group invites. Don't you buy gold?

Yes, I love buying gold as I have tons more cash than time to farm. Since they'd banned Ebay sales Peons is the company I use and have never had a problem with them. IGE fucked me pretty good once so I won't use them again. I also don't use any add-ons as I think they're cheating, so whatever it is they end up doing I get annoyed by.

Also, pardon my hostile, trenchant tone earlier. I've got some sort of flu that's really beating the hell out of me. 5 minutes after I posted that, I simultaneously projectile vomited and shit diarrhea into my pants while I collapsed to the floor. Doing something like that at work really, really sucks. Plus I spewed into the cap door on an STK/SUN tape silo and had to make a subordinate clean it out since I couldn't even stand up without spewing more. Ugh. Just Ugh.

[Azazel]

Stop reporting people, let them spam yelling in Ironforge. Everytime you people think you've succeeded in "driving them out" they immediately come back with something more intrusive. They're now starting to spam group invites so you'll be getting invite pop-ups every 20 minutes or so.

RMT gold sales are a part of MMO*, and part of them forever, period. You lose, they win. Live with it. No matter what you do to try stopping them, it's just making them come up with something even more annoying than what they did before. Just think people, you were all sooooooo happy when they banned sales on Ebay. That's what started this mess in the first place. Stop while you're ahead.

There is absolutely nothing that any company, anywhere can do to stop that won't net them more account losses than retentions. They are here, and here forever.

Spoken like a true (admitted) gold buyer.

I also don't use any add-ons as I think they're cheating, so whatever it is they end up doing I get annoyed by.

Oh. Okay. 

Wouldn't want to cheat, after all....

 

[rk47]

yeah fuck those cheatin raid guilds. real men don't use raid assist

[Jayce]

yeah fuck those cheatin raid guilds. real men don't use raid assist

But they do buy gold, don't forget that.

BTW bob, do you only come here when you have some massive problem?  Last time I saw a post by you, you hadn't slept in 48 hrs before posting because of something about your kid.  I'm getting tired of making sympathetic noises before refuting your points.

So anyway, thanks for all the spam.  The leap of logic it takes to say we are the problem by supporting countermeasures, where you aren't by buying gold, is breathtaking.

[angry.bob]

yeah fuck those cheatin raid guilds. real men don't use raid assist

Real men don't. Add-ons are for bitches, especially when the people using them go on and on about how whatever it is they're doing takes skill and then turn around and use so many mods they barely need to be involved in the game. Especially healers. Any healer that has to use a mod fucking sucks. If your game system requires your healers to use some giant whackamole healthbar display mod, your game is broken, needs redesigned, and you fucking suck as a game designer. If you can't raid without raid assist, it means the game is fucking broken and that they need to incorporate the features of Raid Assist into the game or FUCKING REDESIGN RAIDS. Seriously, what about that is not obvious?

But they do buy gold, don't forget that.

Yes, they do. Oh, they'll never admit it, but they do. It's like porn - or do you really think it's 1,000 people spending $150,000 a year on WoW gold that are supporting this industry? In fact, I'd be willing to bet that half the people rubbing their ouchy pussies about it in this thread have bought/buy gold. I at least man up and admit it.

BTW bob, do you only come here when you have some massive problem?  Last time I saw a post by you, you hadn't slept in 48 hrs before posting because of something about your kid.  I'm getting tired of making sympathetic noises before refuting your points.

I come here all the time and I've made plenty of posts since then. The apology was for Righ, most of the the rest of you can go fuck off back to whatever bridges you live under and go back to eating goats. Don't feel the need to make any sort of noises before "refuting" my points, I don't consider most you real people anyway. You're things that make text appear that I use to occupy my bored at work time. But so far you haven't refuted anything, except called my posting habits into question. And don't bother doing that in the future. The tone of my posts don't differ enough that you should feel the need to be sympathetic.

So anyway, thanks for all the spam.  The leap of logic it takes to say we are the problem by supporting countermeasures, where you aren't by buying gold, is breathtaking.

Thank yourselves for the spam mother-fuckers! For years we were perfectly happy buying gold on Ebay where you never had to be involved or even aware of it. It had nothing at all to do with you, and there was nothing involved in game. If you wanted to buy gold you actually had to look for it. Then you guys rubbed your pussies about it and got them to ban Ebay sales. Did you really think the industry was just going to go away? How fucking naive are you people? So then they moved on to sending you a spam mail a couple times a week. Sure, more annoying then nothing, but nothing that took more than a few seconds to deal with and be done. And save the "A couple? I got 50 spam mails a day!" In know you didn't, I play on both a release server and a new one... the most I ever got in one day was 5. So you all bitched about that. And once again, what the fuck did you think was going to happen? I'd keep going about you all rubbing your pussies and making worse each time, but it's pretty tiring pointing the cause and effect of your own actions. I'm sure you'll continue to refuse to see what I'm saying and keep laying the blame at the feet of the eight people who buy a million and a half dollars worth of gold apiece each year. Remember though, until you all decided to "crush" the gold industry, we'd been buying it on Ebay for years with no annoying shit going on in-game.

Gold selling is never, ever going away, ever - no matter what anyone does about it. There is nothing you can do about it, and each time you try it's only going to make the process a bigger pain in everyone's ass. The only thing that can possibly stop it is for the MMO companies to offer gold themselves at a cheaper price. Period. That's it. So all that shit and pipe-dreaming about your foolproof plans for stopping it are just wishful thinking.

[Ironwood]

 

[Hutch]

And once again, what the fuck did you think was going to happen? I'd keep going about you all rubbing your pussies and making worse each time, but it's pretty tiring pointing the cause and effect of your own actions. I'm sure you'll continue to refuse to see what I'm saying and keep laying the blame at the feet of the eight people who buy a million and a half dollars worth of gold apiece each year. Remember though, until you all decided to "crush" the gold industry, we'd been buying it on Ebay for years with no annoying shit going on in-game.

If you (and the millions like you) weren't buying gold, there'd be no RMT industry, and thus no in-game spamming. Which is wishful thinking, of course, but the "cause" in cause-and-effect is spelled with you.

Gold selling is never, ever going away, ever - no matter what anyone does about it. There is nothing you can do about it, and each time you try it's only going to make the process a bigger pain in everyone's ass. The only thing that can possibly stop it is for the MMO companies to offer gold themselves at a cheaper price. Period. That's it. So all that shit and pipe-dreaming about your foolproof plans for stopping it are just wishful thinking.

Unfortunately this is true. But blaming spam on the people who aren't buying gold ... there's a word for that. Deflection? Spin? If only I had the flu; I could really go to town and expand my vocabulary, but you get the drift.

[HaemishM]

The only thing that can possibly stop it is for the MMO companies to offer gold themselves at a cheaper price. Period. That's it.

I think that would be lovely, and a much better solution than being spammed to death by fuckwads with little grasp of the English language.

[Jayce]

...

Psycho.

[fatboy]

Gee Bob, how far can you projectile vomit from that soapbox you just climbed on?

Watch that first step.......

[Furiously]

The only thing that can possibly stop it is for the MMO companies to offer gold themselves at a cheaper price. Period. That's it.

I think that would be lovely, and a much better solution than being spammed to death by fuckwads with little grasp of the English language.

This one seems to have worked for the pet food issue....

[Slayerik]

...

Psycho.

I thought it was a lovely post. And I'll throw myself out there as one of the evil gold buyers. I have to work all day. I can spend what I make in an hour and receive what I'd have to farm 12 hours for. It keeps me up (somewhat) with the lifeless kiddies. I could really give two shits if you feel its messing up the economy.

I also buy/sell accounts. I've made money in every MMO I have played, maybe broke even on a couple after you count up the monthly. In all, its a lot of free entertainment if you got skills :)

[CmdrSlack]

And once again, what the fuck did you think was going to happen? I'd keep going about you all rubbing your pussies and making worse each time, but it's pretty tiring pointing the cause and effect of your own actions. I'm sure you'll continue to refuse to see what I'm saying and keep laying the blame at the feet of the eight people who buy a million and a half dollars worth of gold apiece each year. Remember though, until you all decided to "crush" the gold industry, we'd been buying it on Ebay for years with no annoying shit going on in-game.

If you (and the millions like you) weren't buying gold, there'd be no RMT industry, and thus no in-game spamming. Which is wishful thinking, of course, but the "cause" in cause-and-effect is spelled with you.

Gold selling is never, ever going away, ever - no matter what anyone does about it. There is nothing you can do about it, and each time you try it's only going to make the process a bigger pain in everyone's ass. The only thing that can possibly stop it is for the MMO companies to offer gold themselves at a cheaper price. Period. That's it. So all that shit and pipe-dreaming about your foolproof plans for stopping it are just wishful thinking.

Unfortunately this is true. But blaming spam on the people who aren't buying gold ... there's a word for that. Deflection? Spin? If only I had the flu; I could really go to town and expand my vocabulary, but you get the drift.

Two points here, skippy.  First, people buy gold because THERE IS A PROBLEM WHEN A GAME REQUIRES TONS OF TIME PUT IN TO ADVANCE.  Plain and simple.  This is NOT the same as spending hours training for a marathon or ironman, or practicing pitching in the hopes of making it to The Show.  The ability to play a game and farm gold is a function of time, not skill.  People with more money than time will find ways to short-circuit the "time to advance" equasion if they cannot make reasonable progress in the time they have to play.  This is a design issue. 

Second, Bob has a point about the cause-effect of taking steps against RMT type folks.  In Second Life, RMT is just fine and dandy.  The company runs its own currency exchange.  One NEVER sees spam from money-sellers.  Why?  Because it's not necessary.  People know where and how to get their cash.  There's a fucking button that opens the interface.  Seems to me that making things forbidden kinda contributes to the spam.  Now, you may discount Second Life for a lot of reasons, but a spam-free monetized virtual currency trading environment is not one of them.

[HaemishM]

And there is a 3rd party market for buying Linden dollars and land in Second Life with real money from someone other than Linden Labs. Everybody wins.

[Lantyssa]

It's a little disingenious to rail about the evils of addons and how a real man won't use them but to be okay with buying gold.  A real man would earn every copper.

If you're okay with it, fine, but gimmie a break on that line of thinking.

[CmdrSlack]

And there is a 3rd party market for buying Linden dollars and land in Second Life with real money from someone other than Linden Labs. Everybody wins.

And nobody gets spammed.  Heck, when I was working on a big land development project, I bought Linden dollars with USD.  I needed the cash to buy land, etc. and since there's not too many ways to earn cash in the world that aren't slow and/or lame, hey, no biggie.  I even bought them from IGE.  The service was fast and efficient.  I guess that makes me part of EVIL INCARNATE, but hey, my shit got built on time and was widely liked.  So hurrah.