Help me build my next PC

[cmlancas]

I just got served. It was in the gaming forum. I made assumptions I shouldn't have.

* schild fears wall of text.

This is going to be a gaming computer, but I also intend to do a little bit of video editing with it. Not much though, so I imagine anything that can hendle today's games nicely will be able to edit decently.

Should've read the sentence after that one.

On a side note, doesn't it make sense to save for a few weeks and get the processor/graphics upgrade?

With the research I did for my computer, I decided that the DX10 architecture is just too new for anything to be using it in the next 6-12 months. I mean sure, the 8800s are sex in a nine inch card, but what game is really using DX10? Look how many people play VG. I think it might be wisest to buy a mid-range 7000 series or ATI equivalent and wait it out. The prices will become somewhat more reasonable in that timeframe. -- I only make $11.50 USD/hr cutting meat -- gotta stretch that cash :)

[Azazel]

On a side note, doesn't it make sense to save for a few weeks and get the processor/graphics upgrade?

Yes and no. I'm already throwing 3 weeks pay at it, and even that feels a little excessive. Going to a month's earnings or over is just too much, and we really hit the point of declining returns for money/usefulness. Paying the extra for bleeding-edge isn't something I feel that's worthwhile these days.

You know, what with a house to buy and all that kind of stuff.


On a less extreme note. There's only $60 difference between the 7600 and the 8600, so I'm considering putting that last bit of the budget mentioned before into here.

I'm reading up on the reviews and such, but a too-large chunk of the reviews just degenerate into number-crunching which is a bit disorienting.

edit - Or do I say fuck it and put in 2 extra days' pay and get the low-end 8800? Will it make that much of a difference in the gaming?


will that mobo be able to handle all this stuff without a problem? Will it kill the power supply?


arrgh.

This hurts.

[cmlancas]

If you are going to do an 8800, you will most certainly want a 600W PSU. Anything less would be pushing it in an extreme sense. Especially if you are running two HDDs.

Maybe I'm just jealous that your video card will be shinier than mine.

[Trippy]

On a less extreme note. There's only $60 difference between the 7600 and the 8600, so I'm considering putting that last bit of the budget mentioned before into here.

I'm reading up on the reviews and such, but a too-large chunk of the reviews just degenerate into number-crunching which is a bit disorienting.

edit - Or do I say fuck it and put in 2 extra days' pay and get the low-end 8800? Will it make that much of a difference in the gaming?

If you play at very high resolutions it will.

will that mobo be able to handle all this stuff without a problem? Will it kill the power supply?

400W PS with a minimum of 26A on the +12V line(s) is the minimum PS that's recommended for the GTS with 640 MB of RAM. The 320 MB model will require slightly less power. Antec helpfully does not display the specs on their PS for that case (and their site is fucked up) but guesstimating from their other 430W PSes it should be okay. E.g. The EarthPower 430W puts out a max of 33A on its two +12V combined.

CC, very unfortunately, does not sell a case without a PS. If you are worried about whether or not the PS is big enough you'll either need to switch cases or buy a case with a small PS and have them put in another one. I don't trust the PSes in any of their no-name cases so you could go with something like the Antec Atlas Server Case Black (550W) or you could get something like the Antec SLK1650B Black Mini Tower (350W) and add on the Antec EarthWatts 500W ATX Power Supply.

Especially if you are running two HDDs.

The WD 320 GB draws 395 mA reading and writing on the +12V line and 660 mA on the +5V line. Not enough to justify jumping from 430 W to 600 W just because he wants to run 2 HDDs.

[Azazel]

Realistically, I'll be running most stuff (or as much as possible) at 1680x1050 as that's the native of the monitor I'll get shortly afterwards.

Should O get the low-end 8800, or save myself seveal hundred and just get the 8600? I'm leaning towards the latter, if the former is going to make the PSU and case into yet another mess. Assuming the 8600 isn't just as power-mad the the 8800..?

I've also noticed over $100 difference between the 8600GT and 8600GTS. The only differences I've found after a fair try of google-fu is the "S" and DDR2 vs DDR3, which aside from knowing it's something to do with memory, means nothing to me. (so I have no idea if the jump is worthwhile).


Other than the video card and PSU now (and assuming the selected mobo is still ok), I've pretty much got it worked out. I think.

[Trippy]

Realistically, I'll be running most stuff (or as much as possible) at 1680x1050 as that's the native of the monitor I'll get shortly afterwards.

That's high enough that the 8800 might make a noticable difference. Check out some benchmarks and see if the extra FPS is worth the extra cost to you.

I've also noticed over $100 difference between the 8600GT and 8600GTS. The only differences I've found after a fair try of google-fu is the "S" and DDR2 vs DDR3, which aside from knowing it's something to do with memory, means nothing to me. (so I have no idea if the jump is worthwhile).

The 8600 GTS is faster than the 8600 GT, neither of which are as power hungry as the 8800 GTS (350W min rec for 8600 GTS, 300W min rec for 8600 GT).

[cmlancas]

The WD 320 GB draws 395 mA reading and writing on the +12V line and 660 mA on the +5V line. Not enough to justify jumping from 430 W to 600 W just because he wants to run 2 HDDs.

Serving us all today, eh? I like to be on the safe side because there is absolutely nothing more frustrating than putting your rig together and realizing you don't have enough juice.

Your research looks to be sound though.

[Azazel]

OK, thanks to the replies from everyone in this thread, I've come up with a revised draft. I'd like to see what people think before going in and ordering it. (Takes about 3-5 days for them to build it, and I want to pick it up this time next week). Modified from the base that Trippy worked out initially.


AMD ATHLON 64 X2 (AM2) 5600+

Asus M2N-E-SLI motherboard (They just dropped the price on this and others by $30 - should I buy "one up"? I don't know mobos.)

WD 320Gb 7200 16Mb Cache SATA 2 Hard Disk HDD#1

WD 320Gb 7200 16Mb Cache SATA 2 Hard Disk HDD#2

Pioneer DVR-212D SATA DVD Re-Writer (18x/8x Dual Layer Black)

Lite-On COMBO 52XCDR, 32XCRW, 16XDVD, BLACK

Corsair DDR2 2GB PC-6400 (2x XMS2 1GB) TWIN2X2048-6400 RAM

Antec NSK6500 Solution Series Black (430W)

1.44Mb Floppy Disk Drive (Black)

Thermaltake TMG A1 CPU Cooler for AMD Socket AM2/ K8

Microsoft Basic Black Value Pack PS/2 (OEM)


Prices on these two low-end 8800 cards are pretty similar - which to buy? Or much of a muchness?

GIGABYTE NX88S320H-B-RH 8800GTS, 320MB, 320bit, GDDR3, 2xDualLinkDVI-I, TVOUT, HDTV

Palit GF8800GTS PCI-E 500/ 1600MHz 320MB GDDR3 320-Bit Dual-Link DVI


Concerns:

Is the mobo good enough to get the most from that processor and graphic card?
Is the PSU good enough to handle all the shit in the case?

Overall thoughts?

[cmlancas]

Is the mobo good enough to get the most from that processor and graphic card?
Is the PSU good enough to handle all the shit in the case?

1) Yes. Probably. You might want to read up on some tech sites though. I'd still recommend the e6600 though over the 5600+.
2) Maybe. A very big maybe. I still think 430W might be skimping it; you're cramping your ability to possibly jump to an SLI configuration without dropping $$ for a new PSU too. What's the point in getting an SLI ready motherboard if you never plan to use it? This is my opinion, and I'm sure Trippy will disagree, but if you have a little extra cash, put in a bigger PSU.
3) Side note: Are you adding any other case fans? I would assume that with all the nifty things you're popping in your case, and especially with the 8800, you would need some extra 90mms. Have you thought about that?

[Strazos]

E6600.

Seriously. It's for winners.

You WANT to be a winner, Right?

[cmlancas]

E6600.

Seriously. It's for winners.

You WANT to be a winner, Right?

Not sure if I'm falling into the Sarchasm, but...

The OC capabilities of the e6600 are amazing; check out some of the reviews on Tom's.
Much of the OCing is with a stock HSF. Installing the stock HSF is a true pain in the ass, but it works pretty well. The capabilities with an aftermarket HSF are even better.
My e6600 with stock HSF runs at room temperature. I think AMDs have a really tough time getting the same results. My 3400+ doubles as a space heater from time to time. I really thought my temperature gauges were broken when I first started using them. My HDD runs hotter than my CPU, although it might be because I have better airflow through the box than in the HDD Bays.

[Azazel]

Is the mobo good enough to get the most from that processor and graphic card?
Is the PSU good enough to handle all the shit in the case?

1) Yes. Probably. You might want to read up on some tech sites though. I'd still recommend the e6600 though over the 5600+.
2) Maybe. A very big maybe. I still think 430W might be skimping it; you're cramping your ability to possibly jump to an SLI configuration without dropping $$ for a new PSU too. What's the point in getting an SLI ready motherboard if you never plan to use it? This is my opinion, and I'm sure Trippy will disagree, but if you have a little extra cash, put in a bigger PSU.
3) Side note: Are you adding any other case fans? I would assume that with all the nifty things you're popping in your case, and especially with the 8800, you would need some extra 90mms. Have you thought about that?

1a~ There's another $60 between the two, and aside from not understanding what the actual difference is between the two, it's just a matter of finding the point where the value/$ reaches it's decent-level peak. The 5600+ seems to be at that point. If you can convince me otherwise, I'm open to consideration though, as I really don't understand the difference between the two. - I'd have to change the mobo, though.) I need to know the why in terms I can at least try to understand, besides the "it's grrrreat, mate!"

1b~ Also, I won't be overclocking. I don't know enough about that shit and I don't want to risk fucking up my machine with my ineptitute.

2a~ Again, what is SLI and why do I care? Yeah, I'm a n00b, I know..  

2b~ Cases and PSUs are an easy thing to change at the last minute while you're standing at the counter, so I'll certainly be seeing what they can offer while I'm standing there. It's most a matter of finding a case I like (I hate the whole "front door" thing to get to my drives) and a reasonable/priced PSU. What wattage would you recommend? Anything from here fit the bill at under au$100?

3~ Whoops! Yes I also planned to have a 90mm in the front of the case. Should I also get a second one? (in the side?) or will the one extra be enough? Also, will this mess with the PSU much? (as I also know bugger-all about voltages and such).
 

[Strazos]

Not sure if I'm falling into the Sarchasm, but...

No, I was being serious, not sarcastic. You avoided the chasm, this time.

[Engels]

Azazel, read this article from Anandtech comparing the AMD 64 X2 against the Core 2 Duos. If that doens't convince you, I don't know what will. The proposed 6600 is pretty similar, and often beats out the AMD 5600 you wish to buy.

Since they are comparable, and you can get a motherboard that's upgradeable (the Asus P5B series, somewhat misrepresented on your website, as only half of their listings for the P5B purport to support Quad Core, yet far more of them do, according to New Egg) within a similar price range, why not just go the intel route?

[Nija]

Here's what I just got today. It's a great time to buy I think.

E6600 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819115003
8800 GTS 640 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814130071
HSF - Thermalright makes outstanding stuff http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16835109133
Motherboard http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813128012
Northbridge cooling http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16835226019
Case http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811112099
RAM http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820231098

I have a spare 320 gig seagate HDD, 7200 rpm SATA 16 meg cache perpendicular recording tech.
Also I plan on using a 550w Antec modular powersupply.
120mm fans in front/rear of the case. The only way to roll. Huge fans, huge CFM (cubic feet (per) minute), low RPMs and noise.

[cmlancas]

Is the mobo good enough to get the most from that processor and graphic card?
Is the PSU good enough to handle all the shit in the case?

1a~ There's another $60 between the two, and aside from not understanding what the actual difference is between the two, it's just a matter of finding the point where the value/$ reaches it's decent-level peak. The 5600+ seems to be at that point. If you can convince me otherwise, I'm open to consideration though, as I really don't understand the difference between the two. - I'd have to change the mobo, though.) I need to know the why in terms I can at least try to understand, besides the "it's grrrreat, mate!"

1b~ Also, I won't be overclocking. I don't know enough about that shit and I don't want to risk fucking up my machine with my ineptitute.

2a~ Again, what is SLI and why do I care? Yeah, I'm a n00b, I know.. 

2b~ Cases and PSUs are an easy thing to change at the last minute while you're standing at the counter, so I'll certainly be seeing what they can offer while I'm standing there. It's most a matter of finding a case I like (I hate the whole "front door" thing to get to my drives) and a reasonable/priced PSU. What wattage would you recommend? Anything from here fit the bill at under au$100?

3~ Whoops! Yes I also planned to have a 90mm in the front of the case. Should I also get a second one? (in the side?) or will the one extra be enough? Also, will this mess with the PSU much? (as I also know bugger-all about voltages and such).

1a) In games where you may feel a CPU bottleneck, I believe the e6600 has a higher L2 Cache. I think it is 4MB v 1MBx2. I could be wrong, but I if I remember correctly, this is one of the reasons why I chose this processor over the other.

1b) Okay. See 1a.

2a) If you don't need SLI, why are you paying for an SLI motherboard? I'm not the hardcore hardware buff that others may be on this forum, but I understand SLI to basically combine the efforts of two videocards in one video output. Pretty much you are using two video cards for one picture. I think it has something to do with divying up shading, drawing, and other stuff, much like the Aegia PhysX chip is supposed to work.

2b) I might invest in http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=74&products_id=23946&ccsid=94539d2169c37722943a337ea653a09f and spend the extra $20 AUD in fans. A cool case is a happy case.

3) Is there a place to install a 120mm fan? These are awesome for getting good front to back airflow for your CPU. I never knew how useful these could be until I put one in my fiance's rig. I'd totally recommend getting a case with one of these, ESPECIALLY if you are investing in a 8800.

Anything else? :)

Edit: My quote was embedded in something that wasn't a quote!

[Azazel]

Azazel, read this article from Anandtech comparing the AMD 64 X2 against the Core 2 Duos. If that doens't convince you, I don't know what will. The proposed 6600 is pretty similar, and often beats out the AMD 5600 you wish to buy.

Since they are comparable, and you can get a motherboard that's upgradeable (the Asus P5B series, somewhat misrepresented on your website, as only half of their listings for the P5B purport to support Quad Core, yet far more of them do, according to New Egg) within a similar price range, why not just go the intel route?

Thanks for finding that article, I do appreciate it, but all I really got out of it was that the processor that costs au$55 (25%) more than the other one is slightly better in a bunch of benchmarks. Which is to be expected, really.

2a) If you don't need SLI, why are you paying for an SLI motherboard? I'm not the hardcore hardware buff that others may be on this forum, but I understand SLI to basically combine the efforts of two videocards in one video output. Pretty much you are using two video cards for one picture. I think it has something to do with divying up shading, drawing, and other stuff, much like the Aegia PhysX chip is supposed to work.

Thanks for the info on the other stuff.

As for SLI, well this mobo has just dropped in price by $30 as of yesterday, so it's actually pretty cheap now as far as motherboards go. Since it has all the other crap a motherboard needs, it seems fine to my untrained eye. I'm still not really understanding how SLI works though, or how I would go about using it. Or why it'd be gimped with this setup.. 

[cmlancas]

What I am saying is that you might be able to find a budget motherboard which won't hamper your system through your site that doesn't lend a hand to overclocking and an SLI configuration. Most of the more expensive boards have one of these two things in mind. But you've said that you don't want to do either, so if you have no intention ever of running two of the exact 8800s together on your motherboard, why are you paying for one with the extra PCIex16 slot?  It's like having a car with a GPS system you'll never use. Sure, it's nifty that it is there, but if you don't turn it on and let it tell you to turn right in 1km, you're wasting your money.

[hal]

Az, as I who has recently put together a system. Let me try to address SLI. SLI is an upgrade option. One that I have no plan of using. But it is an option that costs little to acquire. I think that future proofing a system is a fools game as the tech changes so fast.  But I will take all the options I can acquire as long as the cost is small.

[Azazel]

Ok I get you now. I also agree on (not) paying extra for stuff you'll never use. My thoughts for sticking with this one are currently heavily based on yesterday's price drop from AU$160 to $129, which obviously takes a lot of the extra paying for stuff factor out of the equation on this board.

Do you have a suggestion on a different motherboard to go for? (As I clearly do not know WTF I am doing beyond a bsasic level without having my hand held.)

[Trippy]

Alright lots of stuff to address so be patient.

First, your budget has gone up substantially since you originally posted your question (apparently it's up to around AUS$1800 now). Since you are spending more now, it's worth considering building a system that will have more longevity than a "budget" $1200 gaming system.

For a gaming system both the CPU and the video card are important with the video card usually being more important (though that's changing), especially if you like playing at high-resolutions. However a video card is very easy to replace while a CPU is a pain, as I mentioned earlier. Your latest proposed system is currently tilted on the video card side of the equation. I.e. at some point in the near future you might find your CPU is the bottleneck and your video card still has head-room to spare. Another option is to get the best CPU you can afford at your budget and skimp, somewhat, on your video card with the expectation that you'll upgrade it in a year or so when prices have come down and/or better models are available. Any system you build now is presumably going to be a huge improvement over what you have now so you probably won't even realize your video card is the bottleneck if you go the second option since your FPS will be so much better than it is now.

People here keep mentioning the E6600 and it really is the best CPU at that price point (though it's not necessarily the best bang for the buck), without getting into the ridiculously expensive CPUs. However you will pay more for both the CPU and the motherboard which means you won't be able to get the 8800 GTS if you stick the same $1800 budget. Since you have boosted your budget, though, it is something to seriously consider.


On the issue about SLI motherboards. Even if you don't plan on getting a pair of video cards to take advantage of an SLI motherboard they are still worth considering:

1) Since they are considered "enthusiast" boards they usually have more features than the non-SLI model. E.g. some of the ASUS non-SLI MBs only have 2 RAM slots on them. All of the ASUS SLI MBs, AFAIK, have 4 RAM slots on them. SLI MBs will often have more USB connectors, better sound chips, more SATA connectors, and so on, compared to their non-SLI counterparts.

2) They often have higher-quality components on them since they expect more "enthusiasts" will be overclocking or otherwise abusing their MBs.

3) In non-SLI motherboards the PCI-e slot is typically crammed next to the CPU socket. On an SLI MB you can stick your video card in the "lower" PCI-e slot which means its further away from the CPU for better cooling for both components.

The one disadvantage of going with an SLI motherboard (other than the price) is that you give up some PCI and/or PCI-e slots which may be an issue if you were planning on sticking in a bunch of extra cards. E.g. maybe you wanted to build an HTPC system with eight TV tuners (it's possible) and a sound card and now you don't have enough slots on your MB. It doesn't sound like you are going to be doing that, though.


If you do want to go with the 8800 GTS then your 430W PS is going to be on the borderline (especially since we don't know the exact specs on it). You should definitely consider getting a bigger PS if you go that route. I've never heard of Palit so I would recommend getting the Gigabyte.

1a) In games where you may feel a CPU bottleneck, I believe the e6600 has a higher L2 Cache. I think it is 4MB v 1MBx2. I could be wrong, but I if I remember correctly, this is one of the reasons why I chose this processor over the other.

You can't directly compare the cache sizes on the Core 2 Duo with the cache sizes on the A64. The A64 has a built-in memory controller while the C2D still relies on an external memory controller (part of the MB chipset). This means, among other things, that overall the A64 has lower memory access latencies compared to the C2D, and that means that the "cache miss" penalty on the C2D is larger than that of the A64 so it needs a bigger cache.

Azazel, read this article from Anandtech comparing the AMD 64 X2 against the Core 2 Duos. If that doens't convince you, I don't know what will. The proposed 6600 is pretty similar, and often beats out the AMD 5600 you wish to buy.

I'm not sure what that AnandTech benchmarks are supposed to convince him of. Yes the 6600 is a better CPU than the 6000+ but the 5600+ is about the same as the 6400 and it's cheaper, *and* the motherboards he can get that support the 5600+ are cheaper than the C2D ones.

What wattage would you recommend? Anything from here fit the bill at under au$100?

Read my earlier post. At under $100 the Basiq 500 will work.

3~ Whoops! Yes I also planned to have a 90mm in the front of the case. Should I also get a second one? (in the side?) or will the one extra be enough? Also, will this mess with the PSU much? (as I also know bugger-all about voltages and such).

Fans draw ~2W on the 12V line or around 167 mA. In other words, not much. One fan is enough to cool your two drives, assuming its pulling enough air.

[cmlancas]

I swear, I should get paid for some of the research I do for people when building systems. But at the same time, I wish I had someone guiding me through when I went for my first real build.

Okay, if I were you, first I would dump the AMD processor, and here's why: You will have more L2 Cache, and you won't need a $54 AUD aftermarket HSF.

And since we aren't going with the AMD, I'd recommend these:

Motherboard: $128.70 AUD Gigabyte GA-945P-S3(V3.3): http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=36_62&filter_id=20&products_id=23687&ccsid=94539d2169c37722943a337ea653a09f

CPU: $302.00 AUD Intel CORE 2 DUO E6600: http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=27_28&products_id=19802&ccsid=94539d2169c37722943a337ea653a09f
With the e6600, you won't need an aftermarket fan. So you just made up the money on your AMD.

If you further wanted to save money, I found another good case that you might like, considering you're getting the same PSU at a better price and also (in my opinion) a better case layout:

Case: $114.00 AUD Cooler Master Centurion 534 Silver 430W: http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=60&products_id=19950&ccsid=94539d2169c37722943a337ea653a09f
or even this one: $106.70 AUD Thermaltake Matrix Black Case with 430W http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=60&products_id=20615&ccsid=94539d2169c37722943a337ea653a09f

I'm not knocking Antec, but I think both Thermaltake and Cooler Master make superior products as far as cases go. If you don't like the colors and prefer the straight black (I know that's what I have at home), then I guess you are boned on the site. But if that doesn't bother you, I really think you should take a look at the Thermaltake Matrix. It's right robbery that you can get that case for that price. Toss in one extra 120mm and one extra 90mm and you'll be running close to room temps in your case if you can keep the 8800 in check.

[Trippy]

Okay, if I were you, first I would dump the AMD processor, and here's why: You will have more L2 Cache, and you won't need a $54 AUD aftermarket HSF.

Stop telling him to dump the A64 because of the size of the cache in the C2D. You don't know what you are talking about.

[cmlancas]

Damn. When it warned me in red that another post had been written, I figured it wasn't Trippy's super long one. Mine might be kinda out of date, but at least it gives the flipside of the AMD/intel coin.

[cmlancas]

Okay, if I were you, first I would dump the AMD processor, and here's why: You will have more L2 Cache, and you won't need a $54 AUD aftermarket HSF.

Stop telling him to dump the A64 because of the size of the cache in the C2D. You don't know what you are talking about.

The A64 has a built-in memory controller while the C2D still relies on an external memory controller (part of the MB chipset). This means, among other things, that overall the A64 has lower memory access latencies compared to the C2D, and that means that the "cache miss" penalty on the C2D is larger than that of the A64 so it needs a bigger cache.

I was under the impression that the cache difference was slight and that the C2D had the edge on the A64. Suppose I should do a bit more research, but I still think that the aftermarket HSF is a waste. However, I won't back down in saying that I am unbelievably satisfied with the e6600 over my last AMD product.

Edit: Clarity

[Strazos]

If experience tells me anything, Intel chips tend to be a bit more stable, and run much cooler. My damn old AMD Athlon XP 2700+ runs pretty hot at times. The last Intel system I set up with a E6400 ran cool.

As in, the exhaust coming directly out of the HSF was cool to the touch, even under load (Maxed-out Doom3 gameplay).

[Trippy]

Okay, if I were you, first I would dump the AMD processor, and here's why: You will have more L2 Cache, and you won't need a $54 AUD aftermarket HSF.

Stop telling him to dump the A64 because of the size of the cache in the C2D. You don't know what you are talking about.

The A64 has a built-in memory controller while the C2D still relies on an external memory controller (part of the MB chipset). This means, among other things, that overall the A64 has lower memory access latencies compared to the C2D, and that means that the "cache miss" penalty on the C2D is larger than that of the A64 so it needs a bigger cache.

I was under the impression that the cache difference was slight and that the C2D had the edge on the A64. Suppose I should do a bit more research, but I still think that the aftermarket HSF is a waste. However, I won't back down in saying that I am unbelievably satisfied with the e6600 over my last AMD product.

C2D is the better architecture than the A64 but looking at cache sizes by themselves is meaningless. By your logic he should get a Pentium D because it has a 4MB cache and it's cheaper than the A64 and the C2D.

[cmlancas]

Okay, if I were you, first I would dump the AMD processor, and here's why: You will have more L2 Cache, and you won't need a $54 AUD aftermarket HSF.

Stop telling him to dump the A64 because of the size of the cache in the C2D. You don't know what you are talking about.

The A64 has a built-in memory controller while the C2D still relies on an external memory controller (part of the MB chipset). This means, among other things, that overall the A64 has lower memory access latencies compared to the C2D, and that means that the "cache miss" penalty on the C2D is larger than that of the A64 so it needs a bigger cache.

I was under the impression that the cache difference was slight and that the C2D had the edge on the A64. Suppose I should do a bit more research, but I still think that the aftermarket HSF is a waste. However, I won't back down in saying that I am unbelievably satisfied with the e6600 over my last AMD product.

C2D is the better architecture than the A64 but looking at cache sizes by themselves is meaningless. By your logic he should get a Pentium D because it has a 4MB cache and it's cheaper than the A64 and the C2D.

How do you feel about the budget board I suggested?

[Trippy]

If experience tells me anything, Intel chips tend to be a bit more stable, and run much cooler. My damn old AMD Athlon XP 2700+ runs pretty hot at times. The last Intel system I set up with a E6400 ran cool.

The A64 runs much cooler than the Pentium 4/D, so you are wrong there. The C2D runs cooler than the standard A64 X2 though the low power X2 are the same.

[Trippy]

How do you feel about the budget board I suggested?

Medicore chipset. E.g. it doesn't support DDR2 800 which means you are going to seriously gimp your E6600. The 965 or 975 would be better though of course you have to pay extra for that.

[Azazel]

OK going, to SirBruce this. To make the chunkage easier.

Alright lots of stuff to address so be patient.

First, your budget has gone up substantially since you originally posted your question (apparently it's up to around AUS$1800 now). Since you are spending more now, it's worth considering building a system that will have more longevity than a "budget" $1200 gaming system.

I'm thinking 3 or so years. 4 tops. By then I'll want a new box with new shiny.

For a gaming system both the CPU and the video card are important with the video card usually being more important (though that's changing), especially if you like playing at high-resolutions. However a video card is very easy to replace while a CPU is a pain, as I mentioned earlier. Your latest proposed system is currently tilted on the video card side of the equation. I.e. at some point in the near future you might find your CPU is the bottleneck and your video card still has head-room to spare. Another option is to get the best CPU you can afford at your budget and skimp, somewhat, on your video card with the expectation that you'll upgrade it in a year or so when prices have come down and/or better models are available. Any system you build now is presumably going to be a huge improvement over what you have now so you probably won't even realize your video card is the bottleneck if you go the second option since your FPS will be so much better than it is now.

Understood. However, my plan is to never open the case again unless I need to add another HDD, more RAM, or just give it a dust-blow with a can of air. When I get the box after the one we're building, the one we're building now will be my Wife's machine. I'm not planning to upgrade $200-$300 chunks of hardware every few months or year, that way lies only madness.

Once this machine comes home, she gets the one I'm typing this post on, and her one gets relegated to the corner for use as a print server, email box, occasional word processing, and "friends-over-to-LAN-WoW" machine.

People here keep mentioning the E6600 and it really is the best CPU at that price point (though it's not necessarily the best bang for the buck), without getting into the ridiculously expensive CPUs. However you will pay more for both the CPU and the motherboard which means you won't be able to get the 8800 GTS if you stick the same $1800 budget. Since you have boosted your budget, though, it is something to seriously consider.

I really just want a good CPU and Video card (and mobo) that will work happily in concert together. If the 6800/5600+ and the mobo you suggested in that earlier post work well together, then I'm happy. If there's a significant upgrade for not a lot more $, then I'm happy to consider it.

Same deal going from a 8600GT>8600GTS>8800GTS. I realise once we hit the GTS we're off the bang/buck rails, but if it's going to be significantly better than the 8600 models then I'll go for it. From my muddied reading I can't see a large difference in the two processors. Unless there's a really huge benefit to upgrading from the 5600+, I'm happy with staying with it. If the 8800 running with it won't be a big improvement over the 8600's, I'm just as happy to save the couple hundred dollars.

I could go for the e6600 and one of the 8600GTS cards, but would that be overall better or worse then a 5600+ and 8800, assuming I never ever open the case again?


And yes, I'm running an AMDxp2600+MMX, Radeon 9600AGP/256ram and 1.5 gig of RAM. This new system will kill it regardless.
My wife will get the 2600+ to replace her AMDxp2000+MMX, GEForce4 MX440/64ram and 1gb RAM.

The increase in computer power in just a couple of years, combined with both of our incomes having gone up quite a lot means I'd prefer to just get a whole new box in 3-4 years and give her this one.

I can't justify going over the $1700-1800 (inc XP, inc Mouse/Key) I've bumped up to though.
Especially with a monitor to follow.

On the issue about SLI motherboards. Even if you don't plan on getting a pair of video cards to take advantage of an SLI motherboard they are still worth considering:
The one disadvantage of going with an SLI motherboard (other than the price) is that you give up some PCI and/or PCI-e slots which may be an issue if you were planning on sticking in a bunch of extra cards. E.g. maybe you wanted to build an HTPC system with eight TV tuners (it's possible) and a sound card and now you don't have enough slots on your MB. It doesn't sound like you are going to be doing that, though.

The positives all sound good to me, and the negative is a N/A. I'll get them to shove the extra USBs/etc that come with the motherboard into the PCI slots and that will be that.

If you do want to go with the 8800 GTS then your 430W PS is going to be on the borderline (especially since we don't know the exact specs on it). You should definitely consider getting a bigger PS if you go that route. I've never heard of Palit so I would recommend getting the Gigabyte.

OK, so if I don't get an 8800, the 430w cases are fine. If I go 8800 then look for 500w+. Gotcha.


So how does the system I posted above look?

It's kind of down to:

Should I change the motherboard?
Which of the graphics cards?

[Trippy]

Understood. However, my plan is to never open the case again unless I need to add another HDD, more RAM, or just give it a dust-blow with a can of air. When I get the box after the one we're building, the one we're building now will be my Wife's machine. I'm not planning to upgrade $200-$300 chunks of hardware every few months or year, that way lies only madness.

Putting in a video card is comparable to to installing a new HDD.

Same deal going from a 8600GT>8600GTS>8800GTS. I realise once we hit the GTS we're off the bang/buck rails, but if it's going to be significantly better than the 8600 models then I'll go for it. From my muddied reading I can't see a large difference in the two processors. Unless there's a really huge benefit to upgrading from the 5600+, I'm happy with staying with it. If the 8800 running with it won't be a big improvement over the 8600's, I'm just as happy to save the couple hundred dollars.

The problem with most gaming benchmarks is that they either fix the CPU (usually the best they can get their hands on) and change the GPU or fix the GPU (again the best they can get) and change the CPU. It's rare that they change both since you get a multiplicative effect with all the permutations to test. If you dig around enough you might find enough benchmarks that you can extropolate what the performance differences might be between the different CPUs and GPUs.

I could go for the e6600 and one of the 8600GTS cards, but would that be overall better or worse then a 5600+ and 8800, assuming I never ever open the case again?

If this is a gaming rig and you are never are going to upgrade the GPU I say go for the 8800 GTS, even if that means cutting back on the CPU. With a maxed out CPU the 8800 GTS is double the performance over the 8600 GT/GTS at higher-resolutions. Even with the more mainstream CPUs that should translate into noticablely smoother gameplay. Note, however, that cutting back on the CPU may slow down things like video reencoding/transcoding and stuff like that. So there are tradeoffs.

Should I change the motherboard?
Which of the graphics cards?

The motherboard you listed above is their low-end SLI motherboard. There are fancier NVIDIA chipsets which you can compare here:

http://www.nvidia.com/page/nforce5_specs_amd.html

There's also an nForce6 lineup as well. The weakest link on that motherboard is probably the audio -- the higher-end chipsets have much better audio, though you need a good audio system to take advantage of it which may not matter in your case.

[Azazel]

Putting in a video card is comparable to to installing a new HDD.

Yes, it's physically very simple - I've done it in the past. The difference is installing an additional HDD gives you more storage space while turning over a video card gives you an expensive paperweight.

The problem with most gaming benchmarks is that they either fix the CPU (usually the best they can get their hands on) and change the GPU or fix the GPU (again the best they can get) and change the CPU. It's rare that they change both since you get a multiplicative effect with all the permutations to test. If you dig around enough you might find enough benchmarks that you can extropolate what the performance differences might be between the different CPUs and GPUs.

I understand that. The problem is I look at the various spreadsheets and benchmarks and they pretty much just wash over me to a large extent.

If this is a gaming rig and you are never are going to upgrade the GPU I say go for the 8800 GTS, even if that means cutting back on the CPU. With a maxed out CPU the 8800 GTS is double the performance over the 8600 GT/GTS at higher-resolutions. Even with the more mainstream CPUs that should translate into noticablely smoother gameplay. Note, however, that cutting back on the CPU may slow down things like video reencoding/transcoding and stuff like that. So there are tradeoffs.

Thanks. This is the sort of thing I wanted to know!

The motherboard you listed above is their low-end SLI motherboard. There are fancier NVIDIA chipsets which you can compare here:
http://www.nvidia.com/page/nforce5_specs_amd.html
There's also an nForce6 lineup as well. The weakest link on that motherboard is probably the audio -- the higher-end chipsets have much better audio, though you need a good audio system to take advantage of it which may not matter in your case.

Again, it's unfortunately a bunch of numbers that don't mean anything meaingful to me. Audio's not an issue really, especially with 2 or even 3 PCs usually going in the room at once.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I swear, I should get paid for some of the research I do for people when building systems. But at the same time, I wish I had someone guiding me through when I went for my first real build.

This is my first computer where I've spent anywhere near this amount, so having people who seriously know what the fuck they are talking about such as yourself and Trippy as opposed to the people I know IRL makes a big difference. I think I spent $1200 on one of the two other systems I listed above, back in the day (the one that's my wife's current machine, I think). Spending a fair chunk more, I want to really make sure I've got my shit together.

Okay, if I were you, first I would dump the AMD processor, and here's why: You will have more L2 Cache, and you won't need a $54 AUD aftermarket HSF.

Ok, the e6600 really runs significantly cooler and definately won't need an aftermarket fan? Fo' sho' reals?

In that case, I'm open to getting it (the difference becomes $10 at that point, so meaningless). And since everyone seems to agree that the e6600 outperforms the 5600+, I'm willing to change.

I'm not knocking Antec, but I think both Thermaltake and Cooler Master make superior products as far as cases go. If you don't like the colors and prefer the straight black (I know that's what I have at home), then I guess you are boned on the site. But if that doesn't bother you, I really think you should take a look at the Thermaltake Matrix. It's right robbery that you can get that case for that price. Toss in one extra 120mm and one extra 90mm and you'll be running close to room temps in your case if you can keep the 8800 in check.

Both the Coolermaster and Thermaltake look just fine to me, but if I'm going to 8800GTS I'll need to work out a 500w.

So, now it's finding a good motherboard to plug the e6600 and 8800GTS into.

I guess we're getting closer...

[Engels]

As Trippy has said, and I've suggested earlier, a motherboard with an Intel 965 chipset is the best solution. Asus has various kinds of P5Bs, previously linked. This one seems like a good choice.

[Trippy]

Okay, if I were you, first I would dump the AMD processor, and here's why: You will have more L2 Cache, and you won't need a $54 AUD aftermarket HSF.

Ok, the e6600 really runs significantly cooler and definately won't need an aftermarket fan? Fo' sho' reals?

You don't need an aftermarket cooler on the AMD either. He's just making stuff up.

If you do go the the E6600 route + 8800 GTS + a bigger PS you will go over $1800 unless you take some stuff out. You could, for example, forgo the extra HD and add that in later.