'Antisocial' Gaming

[WayAbvPar]

VOIP is not so much to hold everyone's hand DURING the fight, but to explain the strategy and tactics before the fight. Explaining something like the first boss pull in Gruul's Lair (for non-WoW folks, it is a 25 man raid with 5 boss fight. At the BEGINNING of it) would be a nightmare. It would take forever, and then take forever AGAIN as people asked questions or needed to be updated if they happened to be AFK.

I was very hesitant to start using VOIP with folks I didn't know. However, 99.99% of the time I enjoy it- I am very new to an older established guild and I get a kick out of the veterans verbally sparring with each other when have downtime for some reason.

[Slayerik]

VOIP is not so much to hold everyone's hand DURING the fight, but to explain the strategy and tactics before the fight. Explaining something like the first boss pull in Gruul's Lair (for non-WoW folks, it is a 25 man raid with 5 boss fight. At the BEGINNING of it) would be a nightmare. It would take forever, and then take forever AGAIN as people asked questions or needed to be updated if they happened to be AFK.

I was very hesitant to start using VOIP with folks I didn't know. However, 99.99% of the time I enjoy it- I am very new to an older established guild and I get a kick out of the veterans verbally sparring with each other when have downtime for some reason.

I was the same way. Ever since, any time I have been invited to someone's TS or Vent server I have enjoyed myself and thought it was great to put a personality/voice to a name. I used to be invited to Alliance TS servers (I was leader of a pretty heavy Horde PVP/raiding group). We would talk shit, and just have fun. I'd end up getting on the server after a good open field PVP fight or Battlegrounds scrap. Good times.

It is worrysome though to have Barrens chat transferred over to voice, but I'd never subject myself to that so it doesnt matter.

[Darkgar]

The problem is back seat driver syndrome. Most of the n00bs you have just wait, blinders on, till' someone yells at them to do the right thing, and nothing more.

If you wipe a bunch of times, they get the message they need to learn to play their class and learn the encounter rather than have 'daddy' tell them what to do.  It the "fail - learn - fai" cycle that sorts the good players from the bad ones that need to go find a new guild.  In EQ events I led when we used text chat only you had to be on your game, awake and learn what the hell was going on at all times.  Situational awareness was very important and this setup made the game way more challenging and enjoyable.  Most of the orders anyways could be done with a chat /macros anyways.  It's really not necessary.  Even when I was heavy into the FPS Enemy Territory and Planetside me and my bro' could whip up a PuG team with some carefully worded team chats to turn the tide of the battle.

[Nebu]

I use voice chat in games, particularly when playing with my regular group in DAoC.  I'm ok with this because it helps us communicate things that take too long to type and makes the 5+ year old game a little more enjoyable.  I've also been in chat programs with many of you here in PS and UT.  I guess my knee jerk reaction is to it being required, especially for something as benign as PvE.  I don't mind hopping in vent with some people that I've gotten to know, but being forced to join a group in a game AND being slammed into a VOIP program as well could push me over the edge. 

[Polysorbate80]

I'm all for voice fonts--immersion I don't give a crap about, but I've known a number of female players who only play male 'toons to avoid dealing with immature BS, and I can't blame them for it.

Between our spastic ADD-ridden teenage guildleader and the aging hippie pothead contingent in my WoW guild, I haven't logged into the vent server in at least a couple months.  I just charge in, aggro the fuck out of everything at once with my Paladin, and then tank it while they do whatever it was they were going to do anyway--there's no use in trying to give them instruction of any kind.  They inevitably do something boneheaded, and I rez them afterwards.

And no, we obviously don't do major raids.

Put me in the "anti-social" camp.

[Nija]

SHAZBOT
SHAZBOT
SHAZBOT

[Strazos]

I really don't want to hear 99% of the other players talk. I cannot stress that enough. Especially if there is PvP involved; your own side will bitch and moan constantly, and the other side, if you can hear them, will talk trash, and bitch and moan.

Don't even get me started on all the 12 year old children getting into games like WoW now. I'd sooner stab them in the face with an icepick than listen to them talk in a MMO. Big part of the reason why I never got into Guild Wars; because any outfit that was any kind of organized wanted you on Vent or TS.

....Could you imagine what the average group of GW or WoW players would be like on VOIP? The horror...

[WindupAtheist]

My guild was always in Ventrilo.  Everyone would sit in the lobby bullshitting, with separate channels for PVP and instances, to keep general conversation from being drowned out by "FUCKING HEAL ME!" and such.  When we would do SM library, we would stop at each readable book and take turns reading them out loud in fake accents.  We used to have this guy who would sing constantly if you let him get away with it.  And I would do this thing to some of the members I was cool with.  If they were bitching about something, I would bring up a really sad piece of music and set it to play over the channel as I mocked them.

Guildmate:  Fucking paladins always bubble!
Me:  (sad music)  There was this... this paladin... (sniff) ...and he... he... (music swells) ...USED HIS BUBBLE!  WAAH!

Voice chat is awesome.  Embrace it.  Because if you're too introverted to even speak out loud while huddled in your reclusive MMO dungeon, you have problems.  As for me, the prospect of voice chat with random retards almost makes me want to go back to WoW, just to fuck with the kiddies minds.  Whenever I would boot some random idiot from a group, and he sent me the obligatory "WTF?" tell, I would just start making shit up about how I didn't want him reading my mind because I knew he was with the Illuminati, or some such.  Voice would only make this better.

[AcidCat]

When we would do SM library, we would stop at each readable book and take turns reading them out loud in fake accents.  We used to have this guy who would sing constantly if you let him get away with it.  And I would do this thing to some of the members I was cool with.  If they were bitching about something, I would bring up a really sad piece of music and set it to play over the channel as I mocked them.

What you are describing is exactly what I've experienced - people on voicechat who think they are funny but are just painfully annoying.

Voice chat is awesome.  Embrace it.  Because if you're too introverted to even speak out loud while huddled in your reclusive MMO dungeon, you have problems. 

Clearly you seem like an extrovert who thrives on interacting with other people. Plenty of people are just wired the opposite way.

[Miasma]

My tolerance for voicechat is inversely proportional to the number of extroverts who seem to believe they are radio DJs and that "dead air" must be filled with inane chatter.  Those people, just like radio hosts, think they are hilarious.  Only 0.02% actually are.

[Calantus]

I've never seen a problem with VOIP, if I'm ever invited onto a vent/TS server I'll go hop on it ASAP, and I always invite the little puggies to our server if we're doing a run or somesuch. I'm not even extroverted, which is actually why I probably like it, in my work I'm home most of the time by myself on the computer, and I don't go out much because I a) don't drink and b) can't stand smoke and c) couldn't be fucked. So most of my interaction outside of my family and close friends is online and as such I'm not tired of dealing with people like some people have said here.

EDIT: Also if I haven't heard you on vent it's going to take a LOT longer for me to care about you at all. The guildies that never used vent back when I raided? Who were they again? You're just a character to me until I hear your voice, THEN you're a person.

[Furiously]

My tolerance for voicechat is inversely proportional to the number of extroverts who seem to believe they are radio DJs and that "dead air" must be filled with inane chatter.  Those people, just like radio hosts, think they are hilarious.  Only 0.02% actually are.

I'll drink to that - and usually when I hear that person.

[Morfiend]

I have been using voice chat since the days of Mplayer, with the fight channels and the chat channels and all that. I am very comfertable with it. I guess it helps that I am a horrible typer, and so using voice is much easer for me. I have a guild vent server, that we give out the password to very freely. If I am doing a pug in wow, I will give the vent info out, and some times have a blast with total strangers. On the other hand, if people are acting like douchebags, i have no problem kicking them from vent. Also, we keep a few locked channels for people to go when they want to not be bothered.

I think adding VOIP isa good thing.

[Ryuno]

Personally i've been using Vent/TS for years now, and I can't imagine playing an MMO without it. I'm always on my guilds vent server when i'm at my PC to chat to someone, whether i'm playing or not.

But as is obvious from this thread, everyone is different and you can't force tools on anyone :)

I'm not sure whether adding it into the game itself is good or not.

I do think its largly pointless because alot of the large groups of people that want to use Voice-Chat, do already and use Vent or TS etc.

Like has already been said, its in LOTR and hardly anyone uses it.

[Trouble]

I guess the thing here is that there is a difference between a guild ventrilo and then having voice chat available in 100% of PuGs. Now believe me, I know the usefulness and near requirement of using voice chat in advanced PvE and PvP. I'm a raid leader and I'm the guy keeping everyone on their toes during raids. But I can see how introducing it to the built interface so that anyone can use it with minimal effort could cause problems. In the end it will really depend on what the social expectations become. Do you get shunned if you decide not to involve yourself or is it ok to not use voice chat in PuGs?

I can almost see how this goes. From what I've noticed, in WoW each server tends to form a set of unwritten rules as to the way things are done. This can be seen going from server to server. Some servers have a certain set of PuG loot rules that are used almost all the time. Some servers use certain strategies for certain encounters and other servers use different ones (example, I never heard of kiting Drakkisath with a hunter while I was on Shattered Hand. When I went to another server that's how EVERYONE did it). There's a lot of these unwritten rules, some pronounced and some subtle, that most people don't even realize because "that's just the way it's done", that is until you go to a new server and it's done totally different.

The extension of that will be the public's view of voice chat. On my current server using ventrilo in PuGs is VERY common. I've venture to say that 50-75% of PuGs have ventrilo access and actively ask group members to join in on it. This may be a result of there being many small to medium sized guilds with guild ventrilos but also who PuG a lot. I'm pretty sure on many servers using ventrilo in PuGs is not nearly as common. I can see this easily translating to built in voice chat. On some servers you'll see people being shunned or not welcome in groups at all if they refuse to participate in voice chat. In others it may be barely used at all, or be entirely optional. I've seen this same effect on counter-strike servers. Nearly all of them have voice chat enabled, but only on some is it used a lot.

At the end of the day, this will be good for some people and bad for others. It's clear that prevailing attitude for the people in the thread so far is that of actively not wanting to use voice chat in PuG situations. I'm sure some people will be shunned because of their refusal to use it. On the other hand there will be many people who benefit from having built in voice chat to use as well.

[Azazel]

Voice chat can be good or bad.

In PVP-WoW, then VOIP is really useful and works, though I still only really like to chat with my friends.
In BF2, then I didn't mind joining my squads' channel, and sometimes that has really been worthwhile.

In PVE-WoW, my guild always wants to use fucking Vent, and sometimes I don't mind, but sometimes I just cannot be arsed.


I like playing quietly, not having to talk all the time. I like listening to music on my computer while I play MMOs, which I can't do if I need to listen to group chat through my speakers. I like listening to the Lounge room tv from over my shoulder. I like being able to chat to my wife on her computer next to mine or make or take a phone call. So in many situations, voip shits me up the wall.

Having mates over for an afternoon of WoW-grouping where we're all int he same room is great. That's social, though.

I raided in EQ1 for years without VOIP and we did the content of the day without much of a problem. I've been in WoW raids where the leader had a smooth and calm radio voice and did an awesome job leading the raid. Both can work nicely, but it's all very dependant.

I can imagine telling people in PUGs soon that not only do I not have a mic, but my computer doesn't have speakers....

[Xanthippe]

I have no problem using Vent or whatever when it's needed - raids, pvp whatever.  I don't chat on Vent or whatever, though, and I'm not fond of hearing other people chat, because the only reason I use it is to be more efficient and focused on what I am doing while playing.  I don't like my attention divided when I'm trying to concentrate.

If what I'm doing doesn't require focus, I'm not on vent. I'm playing while chatting with the people I live with.

[WindupAtheist]

EDIT: Also if I haven't heard you on vent it's going to take a LOT longer for me to care about you at all. The guildies that never used vent back when I raided? Who were they again? You're just a character to me until I hear your voice, THEN you're a person.

Bingo.

In my guild we made every effort to make it simple for recruits to get Ventrilo and encouraged them to do so.  Many were the times I personally talked some newb through installation and troubleshooting.  By the same token, if you refused, you were basically a second-class citizen.  This was a casual guild of friends shooting the breeze.  We weren't trying to build our numbers to raid or anything.  If you weren't interacting socially, we didn't have any real reason to give a shit about you.

It was the sort of guild where I could take a primadonna max-level priestess and throw her out on her ass on Day One for being an obvious cunt, and nobody cried about it.  I really wish I liked WoW enough to still play with them.

[qedetc]

hi, i'm going to touch on a lot of points in lower case.

background:  prior to playing lineage 2, i largely viewed voice chat on the internet as a harassment tool in counter-strike.  coincidentally, i almost always have voice muted in cs.  i don't like talking on the phone, and voip was never even brought up when i was playing EQ1; i played most of my eq career as though it were a single player game in the presence of other people.

i can't imagine having played L2 without ventrilo.  the benefits were very clear, and i'd directly attribute my clans success to efficient communication, which was effectively a combination of VOIP and in-game text macros.  as a side note, my bias in favor of voip is likely related to my general boredom with mmo after EQ; boredom entirely resulting from a lack of any real engagement in the game.  the main thing that kept me playing L2 was the interaction on vent, and to this day i still hang out on the vent server despite having quit 2 years ago.  thats a topic for some other thread, i suppose.


Argument:

voice chat was imperitive to being a top clan; it eased dissemination of information.  it lets one group defeat two groups, a feat not necessarily attainable by "knowing your class".  independent behavior, however skillful, can't compete against skillful group behavior.  its existence means that if you're not using it, you're likely at a disadvantage.  if you want to compete without your voice, you have to buck up where they don't have to, and you still might lose.  it is a tool, it is useful, it will be used.

i'm not saying voice chat makes a clan instantly better, it can be quite detrimental when its full of banter and clouded with simultaneous conversations.  if you see any skill in efficient textual communications, you have no reason to deny that there is skill in efficient verbal communcation.  with this in mind, its clear that you need to moderate your channels if you're a leader, or find a new clan if you're under idiotic leadership.  people who behave detrimentally in chat, voice or text, should be dealt with, not tolerated.  they harm your ability to function efficiently, and scare away people who are already adverse to voice chat.

as far as casual conversations, by that i mean, non-pvp or non-raid communcations, i can understand not wanting to converse on voice chat, or at all, as though you were friends or obligated to chit chat with people.  i suspect this is where many people draw the line.  to them i say: avoid your heart out.  we had plenty of people who didnt have a mic, or didnt want to go on ventrilo for whatever reason.  it was fine.  it was at most a minor inconvenience.  we relayed in chat when we had to, or just told them to hang back and do what the group does.  if your clan can't handle that, find a new clan.  if you just dont want to listen to J0hnnyLawl running around shouting in some integrated voice chat, mute him, and go ahead and mute everyone except for your friends list or some such.  that's what i'd likely do.

integrated voice chat has more benefits than disadvantages, especially with a good mute system on both an individual and a tiered level.  it gives looser organizations of people readier access to what many consider a more convenient form of communication.  increased access to efficient communication can lead to more challenging gameplay, both in pvp and pve.  in many situations, this would increase enjoyment of the game, both competitively and socially.  while some annoyances may result, theres no shortage of agreeable people playing games in whoms company you can seek refuge; you might just have to look.

[schild]

I know it looks like I'm harping on new guys... but, comeon. You have a shift key. Use it.

[damijin]

Shift was pressed at least 10 times in that essay. I counted.

[Zetor]

Everyone on the internet wants to be e.e. cummings.

Anyway, most of the group content in wow [which was what sparked this thread] doesn't NEED voice comms. Stuff just doesn't happen that fast, and if it does, the individuals should be able to deal with it, assuming they know the fight, have some spatial awareness and are competent enough, even in "hard-mode" instances. For raids, sure, you need voice chat (especially to explain the fight beforehand and call out important events) -- but seriously, who  raids out-of-guild?

I'm very interested to see how "mandatory" voice comm will alter PVP battlegrounds though. It should be a good thing for WSG and maybe AB / EOTS, but AV... /shudder

Personally, I get on my guild's vent only when something's happening, I prefer IRC when it comes to 'shooting the breeze'.. dunno why, it's probably because my microphone sucks (and not being a native speaker doesn't help either).


-- Z.

[eldaec]

I know it looks like I'm harping on new guys... but, comeon. You have a shift key. Use it.

I just assumed that post was a sophisticated 'pune' or 'play on words'. You see the thread is called 'Antisocial gaming'.

Obviously I didn't read it or anything.

[Azazel]

hi, i'm going to touch on a lot of points in lower case.

Don't do that please.

Affectations like that tend to make you look like a pretentious wanker, or a tryhard "my-identity-is-i-am-teh-nocaps-guy" loser.
Making a point to state that you're going to be a "no-caps-guy" at the start of the post isn't a great start.

[Typhon]

It's not even worth talking about.  It's coming.  It's easier to play-and-talk then it is to play-stop-type.  People are hardwired to look for more efficient solutions, and this is more efficient.  For those thinking that they will quit/not play/not buy - you put up with WAY more shit from MMO games then asshats in voice chat.  You'll adapt.

[AcidCat]

You're just a character to me until I hear your voice, THEN you're a person.

See that's fine with me, because in the game, I just want to be a character.

[qedetc]

Anyway, most of the group content in wow [which was what sparked this thread] doesn't NEED voice comms. Stuff just doesn't happen that fast, and if it does, the individuals should be able to deal with it, assuming they know the fight, have some spatial awareness and are competent enough, even in "hard-mode" instances. For raids, sure, you need voice chat (especially to explain the fight beforehand and call out important events) -- but seriously, who  raids out-of-guild?

i agree that most of the time it would be unnecessary.  there are times even when talking in any form is mostly unnecessary if the game is straightforward enough.  i'd only really encourage people to use it when they didnt want to run a 3rd party VOIP for their guild/clan whatever.  i see the possibility for harder pick-up gameplay though, for those interested, which would benefit from a group voice chat system.  aside: integrated voice could lead to some midly interesting concerns about harassment.

ideally, i'd continue to use 3rd party programs, and then utilize any in game voice for castle siege/raid whatnot, by having group leaders within the clan keep their group related talking in game, and relaying higher level information in the 3rd party program.

[Etro]

Nay?

[qedetc]

but i'm busy finding out about your personalities.  i'll capitalize in other threads, Sir.

[Triforcer]

This one ain't gonna last long. 

[Signe]

Yeah.  HA!  He thinks we have personalities!

[Miasma]

This one ain't gonna last long. 

This one's gotta be someone's alt poster account.

[Sir Fodder]

The lack of caps seems somehow inconsistent with that avatar. He needs some type of "blow 'em up dude! toughguy" or "omg hot chick! drool!" avatar.

[Merusk]

The lack of caps seems somehow inconsistent with that avatar. He needs some type of "blow 'em up dude! toughguy" or "omg hot chick! drool!" avatar.

Hey now, I capitalize just fine.  In fact, if I'm not careful I find myself capitalizing in the Middle Of Sentences.  Like So. 

Anywho,

@Merusk: Are you just asking your question is relation to MMO's? If so, then naturally, I agree. The very cornerstone of the genre is socializing. I like to solo myself in them sometimes, but even I know I'm a freak for doing it. It's just not the right way to go about it.

As for other games, I disagree. The number of single player oriented experiences compared to multiplayer ones is still pretty immense.

I was thinking more about PC games than anything.  Consoles are integrating MP more and more, but still focus on the single player quite a bit.  Admittedly my own focus on Pc games is a lot narrower than it used to be, but meh.

I brought this all up not as a general back and forth about TS/ Vent but more about all kinds of social integration.  TS/ Vent is just the most recent one we're seeing implemented. 

As to TS/ Vent themselves, I don't have a problem with either.  I used them enough, but dislike situations like WUA and Calantus describe.  I've been in 2 guilds like that, and it sucks.  You really ARE treated like a second class citizen and omitted from a lot of groups because they're put together over vent, without a single thought towards those not actually in vent.

 I've got 2 kids to look after if I'm on before they're asleep. Closing myself out by putting on headphones isn't an option, and nobody's willing to moderate their cursing so I can't play it over my speakers either.  So instead, I stay off, and proceed to bitch about the cliquishness.  Fun!

As to the implementation of VC into games instead of using 3rd party apps, it makes the most sense to me.  If you've ever had to walk a computer illiterate through downloading, installing and then setting-up either Vent OR Ts, you begin to wish there was simply an on/ off toggle in the game.   It also equalizes things across PUGs with less mess, and means smaller groups of folks can voice chat w/o paying to maintain a TS or Vent server - an extra outlay on someone's part.

[WindupAtheist]

but i'm busy finding out about your personalities.  i'll capitalize in other threads, Sir.

Fuck you.