Mythic announces changes as 1.71 goes live

[Alkiera]

During the brief period just after SI when I played DAoC, we always moved around while hunting, because it was faster than waiting for respawn...  Then again, I played a bard, with a warden and mana enchanter as partners.  Warden would pull and distract stuff, enchanter would kill it, move to next spot.  I mostly played endurance songs and healed the Warden so he could survive to taunt stuff off the enchanter.

We killed some really insane stuff in that game using that method, considering our level(mid 30's for the enc and warden, I was low 20's).  The damage output of a mana enchanter is just obscene, even against deep purple mobs.

--
Alkiera

[waterman]

So can we agree that this idea is another completely useless attempt to fix the game? Because that's what it is.

I wouldn't agree that it's useless.  Not as useful as you and I would like, absolutely.  It's still a pretty big and positive change, especially if you consider the attitude that seems to have been held towards this in the past (something along the lines of the xp grind being sacred and untouchable).

Actually if anything, I think the biggest problem with this entire situation is that 1.71 was heralded (pun intended) by Mythic as "Ye Ultimate PvE Fix" or the like.  It does a lot to alleviate the grind, but it certainly doesn't change it into no longer being a grind.

Again relating some recent experiences, I did a little XP'ing last night in the Frontier (for an hour until I got ganked), and I found it was absolutely worth my while to move around.  15min at a camp, then find another camp, and at the new camp if I was lucky I would get close to double XP for a bit.  Of course I was also pretty much solo, so moving wasn't a big deal.  I still don't think I'd ever move around as a group.

[HRose]

First off, camping can not be "solved." If it is ever more efficient to sit in one place killing the same mobs, it will be done. Hell, it's done even in games where it is totally against the norm (i.e. CoH). I move around in CoH PVE (non-mission based) more than I do in DAoC PVE simply because the spawn sites are so much more dynamic, not to mention CoH has faster movement and more interesting terrain to move through. I HATE camping, especially when I'm solo, but the diminishing camp bonuses have NEVER made me move when I don't want to. So in essence, without changing their entire spawn system, no amount of camp bonuses or penalties are ever going to fix that issue of the PVE grind in DAoC.

That's what I say too. That's why the tweak makes the players just a bit more annoyed and doesn't help the grind. It's not the spawn system that has to change, but the "grind".

And the grind can only change if you attach a prurpose to it. This is why WoW doesn't have the grind. Because you don't kill the monster for their experience, you kill them to go on with the quests, in the same way you kill monsters in a single player game like Baldur's Gate.

I'm just saying "it's not impossibe" and "Mythic solutions are weak".

It does a lot to alleviate the grind, but it certainly doesn't change it into no longer being a grind.

I really don't understand how Mythic is able to fool you like that. What Haemish said is the whole scope. The grind is allieviated only if you consider the camp bonus as "faster exp" and so faster levelling.

What Mythic did with this whole system is simply to cut the "time". If before you had to go through 50 boring levels, now you have to go through 25.

What I mean is that NOTHING has changed on the gameplay. They only affected the time.

And this is common since Mythic can only understand "time" and "timesink" in thier design concept. The quality of the game is exactly like before. The grind is there like before. They are simply removing, once again, the boring parts the best they can.

But the core of the question is that you don't make better games by removing their parts, but only by turning those parts into something fun and valuable. Mythic ISN'T able to give value to their potential.

[eldaec]

If they are serious about getting people to hunt rarely killed mobs, I'd estimate they'd need bonuses that reach up between 700-1000%.

And to be honest - they might as well go with bonuses that high.

A 1000% camp bonus, only available to those who move around, and are therefore only 30% efficient at killing (a very high estimate) would mean maximum of only 3x faster xp for the last three levels.

Nobody is going to convince me the game would suffer in any way if the last levels were only a third of their current length.

[Shockeye]

Nobody is going to convince me the game would suffer in any way if the last levels were only a third of their current length.

No one except Mythic's bank account. Longer grind = longer subscriptions. If a player wants it shorter they can start a buffbot or two. It's all about the money and I can't really blame Mythic for wanting to make more money. As other people have said, the fun is in the battlegrounds so who really cares how long it takes to get to level 50?

[eldaec]

Inevitable feedback and grab bag question reflecting why the bulk of the current approach to population balance can never work...

Q: In the last patch you added bonuses for underpopulated realms. Last night some players on the alliance were arguing as to what is calculated to figure out those bonuses. On one side of the argument, players were saying it was calculated entirely by realm population comparisons. On the other side of the argument, a few players said that it was calculated by Population, the number of keeps under our realm's control, and possibly even the Realm Points gained by our realm that week.

As the latter group was saying it was 'against our best interests' to take back or defend keeps in our realm, I need to ask...

Can you clear this up for us?

A: The people who think it’s calculated strictly by population were wrong. Many factors were considered while we were creating the formula (which is regularly reviewed and tweaked as necessary). Also, we look at the overall history of the server – we do not make decisions based on one night, or even one week.

The… special and unique snowflakes who, if I’ve understood you correctly, don’t want to play the game because they’d rather have the population bonus instead of the relic bonus, are the reason why we don’t release the exact formula. We don’t want people to avoid one action or take another in an attempt to influence our bonus designation. Just play the game, and do whatever you’d most enjoy that particular evening. It’ll all work out in the end.

As various people posted above, pop balance actions can only realy work on the basis of 'once you get ahead it's harder and harder to stay ahead'.

Putting enemy relics in ordinary keeps is a good example.

What can't really work is individual level bonuses/penalties where your character gets less effective as your realm gets more successful (and therefore attracts population).

[HaemishM]

What Mythic did with this whole system is simply to cut the "time". If before you had to go through 50 boring levels, now you have to go through 25.

What I mean is that NOTHING has changed on the gameplay. They only affected the time.

And nothing will. The gameplay is NOT GOING TO CHANGE IN ANY SIGNIFICANT WAY through this. I don't honestly see how or why you expect it to.

They have made, are making and will continue to make money off the current gameplay. They have over 200k subscribers who are happily (or grudgingly) paying for the current type of gameplay they have. They have no incentive to change the gameplay signficantly. What they have done is to quicken the run through the grind, which will help alleviate burnout on new players and on those who are doing it again. That's it, that's all it's going to be.

This patch is not going to suddenly change your mind about DAoC's gameplay. Either you like it, tolerate it to get to the PVP, or you don't, at which point, nothing is going get your interest but an entirely new game.

Please, do not fucking tell me about the "non-grind" of WoW. It's in fucking beta. We all said the same thing about CoH. Every beta I've ever been in has had "faster" leveling than shortly after release. Maybe there isn't a grind now in WoW. Think about going through newbie quests again, for the 4th or 5th time.

It will be there, it just may take longer than in other games to really fell grindy.

[Sky]

Longer grind = longer subscriptions.

Or faster cancellations from people fed up with overly long timesinks.

It will be there, it just may take longer than in other games to really feel grindy.

All games can get grindy if the gameplay isn't more fun than the compulsion to be a higher level/have more gear/whatever compels killing mobs ad nauseum. Been that way for every game I've played that has advancement tied to killing mobs, IE: everything since UO.

[HRose]

It will be there, it just may take longer than in other games to really fell grindy.

So every game on the earth, aside twitch, is a grind. Single player games included.

Obviously it will be less interesting if you have to level various characters. What you want here? A miracle?

Actually WoW excels even here. There's a post at Grimwell where Geldon says how Blizzard has developed completely different *systems* around each class. This is similar to play a completely different game. Add this to the fact that you can choose a different faction for a different world and I think we have reached near the maximum in longevity.

[HaemishM]

You can choose a different faction for a different world in DAoC. Perhaps the systems between classes isn't terribly different, but I see nothing that WoW has done that automatically says it won't get grindy after awhile.

ANYTHING gets grindy after awhile. WoW will too.