The Long and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online: Interview Edition

[Engels]

Indeed it was during the golden age as you refer. I really hate to think that people could change so drastically, but it does happen I suppose. I'm just having trouble coming to terms with the way they are being portrayed. I heard of troubles after I left, but didn't realize it was to the extent that I've been reading.
~T.King

Piggy, Ralph and Jack were all adorable little school children at the beggining of Lord of the Flies too :)

[kfsone]

The interviewee describes a "dog and pony show"; this sets of alarm bells for me.

With the exception of WoW, the MMOs alive today, especially the older ones, all developed like this. It's been one of the big differences between developing single, multiplayer and MMO games.

Consider games like AC2, Earth & Beyond, City of Heroes, Matrix Online...

WoW is the first MMO that was developed more systematically, but Blizzard is big enough to have overlayed that sort of development with tsunami waves of organic redevelopment.

This makes me think the interviewee was one of the newcomers in the sigil pack: he does, after all, show some of experience and understanding of the development practices that MMO devs have been slow to embrace and development - like scripting. The sort of organic ends-to-middle development that makes for a good MMO is perfectly complimented by a good scripting language that allows for rapid prototyping. But most importantly, it provides a platform for developing automated testing of both ends of the development process.

Programmers don't like testing, and with resistance on both ends, its something that usually gets nixed early on in the process.

His tale of tool-resistence isn't the least surprising. Tools are one of the most misunderstood aspects of this industry. Elitist programmers think tools are for losers ('use notepad', 'you have more control by hand'), others think they can knock tools up in their sleep (strange, I thought your speciality was writing shaders?) and there are the cowed - they've suffered so many evil tools that you might mistake them for elitists. Then there are the designers and producers, who believe all of the above, who have seen too many tools that were seperate in code and development from the actual product as to be more hinderance than help, and think that tools are just a waste of money.

The "hammer and screwdriver" analogy people draw for tools is flawed. A good development tool is not just about creation but also validation.

If you were building your game with scripting and testing in mind, you'd be taking a far more modular approach that utterly becomes the "dog and pony" style neccessary for MMO development, and you would be able to re-use your game engine code in your tools directly and avoid the heinous pain that comes from having seperately developed tools.

For example: Why does your terrain editor need you to "import" your art assets? Because it's not a part of your product. If you'd built it properly, you would have integration and synergy. The people working on and in your tools would be a part of the larger development process and less isolated.

How can that be unhealthy?

[schild]

From thenoobcomic.com.

[Modern Angel]

The interviewee describes a "dog and pony show"; this sets of alarm bells for me.

With the exception of WoW, the MMOs alive today, especially the older ones, all developed like this. It's been one of the big differences between developing single, multiplayer and MMO games.

Consider games like AC2, Earth & Beyond, City of Heroes, Matrix Online...

With all due credulity you work on WWII Online and you're aghast at how this thing was run?

[Engels]

I wasn't going to point that out, but really, a dev from WWII Online saying "the MMOs alive today, especially the older ones, all developed like this. " should be the clarion call for all MMO companies to go out there and box their program managers about the ears.

If what's said here is true. Which I doubt.

[HaemishM]

Cogent stuff about MMO Development

You do realize your product set the industry LOW standard for shitty launches right?

[Modern Angel]

See, I'm not sure if I mean:

a) Holy fuck, the guys who launched WWIIOL are saying this is a mess. it must be a mess.

or

b) Where does this guy get off?

I'm... man, wow. Just wow.

[sam, an eggplant]

With the exception of WoW, the MMOs alive today, especially the older ones, all developed like this.

So what you're saying is that outright lying to publishers is commonplace and accepted in MMO development? I find that incredibly hard to believe. Of course you put your best face forward when presenting milestones, spin is one thing, but spending massive amounts of time developing content that was never intended to be in the actual game? Bullshit. Just bullshit.

[Nebu]

Cogent stuff about MMO Development

You do realize your product set the industry LOW standard for shitty launches right?

I'd consider it a close tie between AO and WWII Online and only because I was such a huge WWII online fanbois.  The launch beat the love right out of me. 

What's left to be said here?  Sigil screwed up.  There was no apparent man at the helm willing to go down with the ship.  Their QA was abysmal.  I'm just hoping this serves as a lesson to investors. 

1) Focus on making a quality game rather than trying to compete with WoW.  Too many things to overcome. 

2) Trying to appeal to everyone will leave you appealing to a niche or noone. 

3) Remember that games are supposed to be fun.  The "delayed gratification" crowd is now grown up and raising families. 

4) Longer periods between rewards ! = hardcore. 

I could go to 100 easily.

[Trippy]

The interviewee describes a "dog and pony show"; this sets of alarm bells for me.

With the exception of WoW, the MMOs alive today, especially the older ones, all developed like this. It's been one of the big differences between developing single, multiplayer and MMO games.

Consider games like AC2, Earth & Beyond, City of Heroes, Matrix Online...

WoW is the first MMO that was developed more systematically, but Blizzard is big enough to have overlayed that sort of development with tsunami waves of organic redevelopment.

Did you work on all those projects? Have you talked in detail with developers who have? Or are you just making stuff up as you go along? MxO was a disaster as a game but CoH especially was a fine game when launched, and so was E & B except that it lacked enough content. AC 2 had its design issues but it looked and ran great.

Now if you said something like MxO, Auto Assault and Dark and Light I might have sort of believed you except that we still don't know what sort of development process those games went through. In other words you have presented absolutely no evidence that WoW was the first MMO that was "developed more systematically."

[Lum]

With all due credulity you work on WWII Online and you're aghast at how this thing was run?

You do realize your product set the industry LOW standard for shitty launches right?

Where does this guy get off?

Did you work on all those projects? Have you talked in detail with developers who have? Or are you just making stuff up as you go along?

Oliver ("kfsone") doesn't work on a game most of you find "cool" like WoW or Eve. He also is responsible in large part for turning around WW2OL into a playable game. But since it's on the "cool kids can bash this" list, clearly any of his opinions on development methodology (much of which he picked up, you know, before joining the MMO industry) or history (much of which he learned from, you know, talking to other coders, and which I can personally back up - tools development is traditionally the poor stepsister of game development among people without experience) should be ruled out because LOLZORS TAXI TO VICTOLY!1! Despite the fact that, you know, he has personal experience beyond laughing at people who play or work on games not named WoW.

I'm sorry, I missed where this board turned into FoH Annex. Which game is allowed to be cool again? Is LOTRO still cool? Or does that suck now? I've been busy.

[Signe]

I've been busy.

Wotcha been doin'?

[Lum]

I've been busy.

Wotcha been doin'?

Workin on stuff.

[Merusk]

I've been busy.

Wotcha been doin'?

Workin on stuff.

Damn tease.  It's like Jr. High all over again. 

[Murgos]

C'mon Lum, you of all people know that when someone appears out of the woodwork and says "Listen to me for I have the gospel." and gives a questionable source for us to believe in his veracity there is going to have to be some "Uh, what?" going on.

Or, are you actually suggesting that every Tom, Dick and Harry that posts with an appeal to authority "I'm right because I work on a 3rd rate MMO" should be granted a pass and their views immediately, sans discussion, entered into the gestalt?

[Modern Angel]

No doubt. It has nothing to do with being cool: I was subbed to WWIIOL for a solid year, from release on. I don't care what's "cool". I care what's "good". If this becomes a place where asses are kissed just because it's a red name posting then it's a place that will be greatly diminished.

He's certainly free to post his opinion but people are equally free to post a little amazement that a guy who worked on WORLD WAR TWO ONLINE (or worst mmog launch ever) is throwing stones. Glass houses and all of that. And do note he's talking about development, not post release fixes; those may very well be amazing in WWIIOL. The release and prerelease process obviously wasn;t.

[Engels]

I've tried to play WWII online, because I don't give a rat's ass about the 'cool' factor. I've also played Aces High II, a persistent world PVP MMO, with tanks, planes and ships, much like WW2 Online, but with ten times the the playability. The latter is a well done small company production, the former, SB.EXE.

Perhaps you're feeling a bit of remorse for your trenchant 'Taxiing to Victory' comment from back in the day, so feel the need to stand up for the little guy. That's all well and good. But please, lets not compare the resources Vanguard had at its disposal with either of the aforementioned games.

Brad may wish to portray Sigil as if they were a duct-tape and spit production, but they had no excuse when companies with fewer resources pull off well conceived and executed games (see Turbine).

Vanguard launched despite incompetent, nepotistic and incestuous management practices, probably because of an exorbitant budget and the good will of Microsoft, of all publishers. Plenty of other MMOs, with fewer resources than Sigil, have done far better. Its not about the money; its about competence and talent.

[damijin]

Oliver ("kfsone") doesn't work on a game most of you find "cool" like WoW or Eve. He also is responsible in large part for turning around WW2OL into a playable game.

I can confirm this wild accusation. I played WWIIOL off and on for several years, and each time I took a break I knew that when I came back it'd be like a whole new game graphically, and usually with tons of gameplay additions.

Although, after all the additions it still was mostly a running-and-dying simulator, but a playable one.

[Azazel]

Oliver ("kfsone") doesn't work on a game most of you find "cool" like WoW or Eve. He also is responsible in large part for turning around WW2OL into a playable game. But since it's on the "cool kids can bash this" list,
....
he has personal experience beyond laughing at people who play or work on games not named WoW.

I'm sorry, I missed where this board turned into FoH Annex. Which game is allowed to be cool again? Is LOTRO still cool? Or does that suck now? I've been busy.

I think you need to take your calming medicine, Lum. I'd personally love to play a good WW2 MMOG, but everything I've heard about WW2OL has been ..not that great.

There's a reason that WoW, and lately LOTRO are the games people point to, and that's because they worked on release and are polished games. Remember, LOTRO is from Turbine and noone here have AA or D&DO a free pass.


This doesn't mean that kfsone's opinions aren't valid, but by the same token, red names don't automagically equal fellatio on this forum. Ask Raph or that Curt Schilling guy about that.

[Lum]

If this becomes a place where asses are kissed just because it's a red name posting then it's a place that will be greatly diminished.

red names don't automagically equal fellatio on this forum.

There's a world of difference between ass kissing and half a page of straight LOL YOUR LAUNCH THAT YOU WERENT THERE FOR FAILED STFU YOU. Then again, the folks from Vanguard posting (aside from McQuaid) don't seem to attract nearly that venom, either. Maybe it's just badly launched FPS sims!

Perhaps you're feeling a bit of remorse for your trenchant 'Taxiing to Victory' comment from back in the day, so feel the need to stand up for the little guy. That's all well and good. But please, lets not compare the resources Vanguard had at its disposal with either of the aforementioned games.

Oddly enough, the people left there seem to be quite proud of that drunken little harangue, go figure. Regardless, yes, Vanguard had a lot of money to work with. It didn't seem to help. Wow, throwing money at a problem doesn't fix things!

[Azazel]

There's a world of difference between ass kissing and half a page of straight LOL YOUR LAUNCH FAILED STFU YOU. Then again, the folks from Vanguard posting don't seem to attract nearly that venom, either. Maybe it's just badly launched FPS sims!

I'll pay that. I actually have no issue with his post, it was yours going on the "cool kids" and the poor WW2 kids who everyone spits on. Seriously, you know as well as any of the rest of us why WoW and LOTRO have such a good rep, so making an issue out of why they get their kudos is disingenious of you.

As for the lack of venom towrads Sigil people, I think it's likely a degree of pity/empathy since they all got fired in the parking lot, combined with Brad being both a convenient whipping boy and a weak cunt of a CEO. Noone seems to know much about the WW2OL folks, so random_dev_02 gets the "your game sucks!" hate that is mostly flung at Brad in the VG example.

[Engels]

See, I can still somehow respect WW2 Online, since, as unappealing as it was to me after a month or so of attempting to play it, it still wasn't a game that promised the moon and failed to deliver. I went into it knowing full well that it reportedly sucked. Then again, AO was also reported to suck, and within a few years of release it was a playable and fun game for some. Clearly there are some small minority of players that keep WW2 Online alive, but then again, I don't think the developers of WW2 Online ever expected to be a AA game, just a small audience attraction.

If Brad hadn't boasted, if their game play and graphics had offered something truely innovative, if their code hadn't been an unoptimized POS UR2 engine fiasco and they hadn't had a 30 million dollar bugdet, I might feel more forgiving.  All those things combined, it nearly smells of out-and-out graft on Brad's part. But I've been told Brad's a nice guy, and that he just 'cared too much', so I will just spray some air freshener about the place.

[Furiously]

TAXI TO VICTORY!

Damn - I wish I knew who said that first...

[Endie]

Cornered Rat aimed high - massively fucking high - with WWIIOL.  Too high, of course, it turned out. 

But I'd have been interested to hear more from someone who has worked in that project.  He might not have been around at the launch everyone is so hurr about, but he's going to have some insight into that and other stuff.  Of course, whether he can be fucked to share that when half a dozen twats decide to make the same, ill-informed snap judgement and related jokes about something he has no responsibility for whatsoever is a different matter.

My company, about 12 years ago, launched a CD-based, multimedia-rich version of its cash-cow product, which ploughed into the ground because the idea was technology-led, not demand-led.  Of course, I only joined them four years ago, but presumably I, also, inherit responsibility.  Does this mean that if I criticise a site for using flash too much everyone can go "how can you talk about that after your Energy Markets crap stfu tbqh kthxbye"?

And anyway, since when did learning from mistakes and being able to talk about what would make something better become a subset of the sin of pride, opening oneself up to jejeune critiques every armchair dev on the block?

Everyone remembers the word "cynical" in the board title, but seem to forget the word "usefully".  And there should be a warning when you create an account: "Caution.  Everyone on F13 is fully capable of designing, coding and executive-producing a multi-million pound software project."

[schild]

No one here claimed they could execute any sort of etc. etc. project.

But, comeon. Don't be a fool. You know damn well that when you sign on with a company, you get the good and the bad. The WIIOL launch sucked and the entire product sucked for the bulk of it's life. It's largely irrelevant that he may have joined at launch or 3 days ago. It's like Mike Lescault (sorry for using you as The Example) in the MTGO forum. Yea, he just joined Wizards not too long ago and probably had zero to do with how shitty MTGO 3.0 turned out, but he's not insane enough to think he's not gonna get flack for it.

Also, aiming high isn't some sort of noble thing. It's all about actions in this industry. Aiming high and failing is worse than aiming low and suceeding. Dreamers don't sign paychecks for very long.

Edit: Now if this fellow had joined CRS at some other location working at some other project and he'd said that - I sincererly doubt anyone would have given him any sort of guff about WWIIOL.

[Ironwood]

It's all about the Woodcock.

[Endie]

But, comeon. Don't be a fool. You know damn well that when you sign on with a company, you get the good and the bad. The WIIOL launch sucked and the entire product sucked for the bulk of it's life. It's largely irrelevant that he may have joined at launch or 3 days ago. It's like Mike Lescault (sorry for using you as The Example) in the MTGO forum. Yea, he just joined Wizards not too long ago and probably had zero to do with how shitty MTGO 3.0 turned out, but he's not insane enough to think he's not gonna get flack for it.

Having had the spectre of SirBruce raised, I'll only answer one bit, rather than each in turn.

I agree: everywhere in life a few, vocal people are always going to get confused and go after someone for things that they have no responsibility for.  Decisions they didn't make, technology they didn't create or design elements they could not affect without access to a time-machine at the very least.  It just isn't useful, helpful, informative or valid.  That was just an example of some folks ignoring the content so they can play the "who can be the biggest flameboy in teh intarweb?" game.

How is it helpful when someone says "here's some stuff I've learned over time" to reply "stfu, you work for a company that made some mistakes before you were there?"  You might say it's inevitable, but since you also clearly think it's perfectly defensible, what is it adding?

[Ironwood]

I think if anything it shows that PR is really, really important.

 

[Trippy]

How is it helpful when someone says "here's some stuff I've learned over time" to reply "stfu, you work for a company that made some mistakes before you were there?"  You might say it's inevitable, but since you also clearly think it's perfectly defensible, what is it adding?

My beef with kfsone has nothing to do with the fact that he's working on WWIIO but that he's making sweeping generalizations about MMO development before WoW without any evidence to back that stuff up with.

[Endie]

How is it helpful when someone says "here's some stuff I've learned over time" to reply "stfu, you work for a company that made some mistakes before you were there?"  You might say it's inevitable, but since you also clearly think it's perfectly defensible, what is it adding?

My beef with kfsone has nothing to do with the fact that he's working on WWIIO but that he's making sweeping generalizations about MMO development before WoW without any evidence to back that stuff up with.

That's certainly fair: I had big difficulty with the point that you raised in your post, for instance, about the line "WoW is the first MMO that was developed more systematically".  That needs evidence, a frame of reference, and a huge dollop more specificity.

But your post wasn't one of the ones that I was getting so hand-wringingly angsty about: you were just calling him on specifics of his own post, on its own merit.

[Hutch]

The Noob's creator must read F13

Edit: schild beat me to it several posts ago  :-(

[damijin]

The Noob's creator must read F13

Edit: schild beat me to it several posts ago  :-(

What the hell does that post/comic have to do with World War 2 Online?

[Trippy]

What the hell does that post/comic have to do with World War 2 Online?

Nothing. This is a Sigil thread.

[Ironwood]

Which means when it reaches 100 pages, we run out of money and have to fire half the thread.

Edited for reasons you should spot below.

[Endie]

Which means when it reaches 100 pages, we run out of money and have to fire half the thread.

 

Thank-you ladies and gentlemen, he'll be here all week...  And please do remember to try the fish!


Edited to confuse latecomers and defy the guy who mocked his edufication.