New and Improved Poker thread

[WayAbvPar]

The ideal spot is Vegas. Then Ab can come from Utah, and there are plenty of rooms and all the booze we would ever need! Tentatively planning a trip in September.

I second this. I can make up some bullshit conference that I need to go to to justify the trip to the wife.  :-D

Oh, and just because Vegas has been mentioned I need to post my bad beat story from Friday. I was playing in a 10-20, full kill (which takes it to 20-40) game that only gets up about 3 times a year when they do a big tourney. Had an up and down night, but am just about even and really ready to leave when I get rockets. I am just to the left of a total donk that has put a grand into the game, gone to the felt and is now on a rush having won about 5 of 6 last hands. Earlier before his rush he paid 3 bets on the flop with 65o with a board of A23 that I thought was a great flop with my pocket rockets. He of course spiked the 4 on the turn. Yay me. Anyways, He has the kill buton so has posted 20 bucks. I raise it to 40, a guy 4 to my left 3-bets it, cold-call from donk's brother, he cold calls, I made it 80, guy makes it 100, call, call, I cap it, call (all-in) call call. So, there is 495 dollars in the pot before the flop. Flop comes down K62 which is a really good flop for me. Check, I bet, call call. Turn is an 8. Check, bet, fold (which makes me think a signal was passed), raise. I know I'm dead but there is now 700 bucks in there, so I call it down to see 86s when a blank hits the river. The all-in guy had slick. I got up and left while the dude pulled his 795 dollar pot against my cracked aces.

I feel your pain. Had a guy catch runner runner to make a straight against my flopped set of Ks last week. Pot was about 1/3 the size of yours, but it was a 4/8 full kill game. I couldn't help but sarcastically compliment him on a well played hand.

[Abagadro]

How far are the card-rooms from Seattle and do you think they are any good?

[Raging Turtle]

Someone needs to start another poker thread, I've given up on online (too much collaboration) and rarely drive to the casino an hour away... I need my fix!

[WayAbvPar]

Splitting off some of the chatter from the Get Together thread. Post your questions, bad beat stories, and other poker goodness here.

[Miasma]

I thought your nanny-state government decided you kids weren't mature enough to gamble, how are you guys still playing?

[WayAbvPar]

How far are the card-rooms from Seattle and do you think they are any good?

There are several rooms just outside the Seattle city limits to the north (in Shoreline). Two major NA casinos as well- one about an hour north of Seattle (Tulalip), and one about 45 minutes- an hour SE of Seattle (Muckleshoot). Also some assorted small rooms at bowling alleys and mini-casinos scattered around the area.

I play primarily at Muckleshoot- it is only a 15-20 minute drive from my house. They have like 35 tables or so, and offer from 3/6 to 5/10 NL (actually spread limit, since state law dictates that the max single bet size is $500). Tons of bad players. The variance demon will attack occasionally, but it is a very profitable place to play over the long run. I am getting close to my near term bankroll goal- wanted to build it up so I could take $600 or so and buy an Xbox Elite and GH II  :-D One more decent session should cover it.

I thought your nanny-state government decided you kids weren't mature enough to gamble, how are you guys still playing?

They did. I no longer play on the Internet- 10 years in jail is too much for me (although the chances of ever being prosecuted for it are dick). There was a bill that didn't make it out of committee this year that provided an affirmative defense for recreational users. Hopefully it will get more attention next session. At the national level, Barney Frank is working on a bill to repeal much of the UIGEA from last year. If that goes through, I think WA will follow along and allow it.

[Abagadro]

Nice. A lot more availability than the 2 hour drive to podunkville I have available. If I am ever up that direction you'll have to take me to Muckleshoot.

[WayAbvPar]

Nice. A lot more availability than the 2 hour drive to podunkville I have available. If I am ever up that direction you'll have to take me to Muckleshoot.

You betcha. Hopefully I will have moved up to the 10/20 by then so you don't have to slum it in the lower limits  :-D

[Abagadro]

I usually don't play that high, but my other choice was the usual 2-5 spread limit game they always have and I'm coming to loathe that game. Only other thing they spread is a nasty 5-10 NL game that I have no confidence in being able to play. My perfect game right now is either a 6/12 or 8/16 with no kill (I freaking hate kill button games) or at most a half kill.

[WayAbvPar]

My usual is a 4/8 game with a full kill. Kills are tough as far as the variance goes (never know how many there will be), but they are a goldmine to good players.

The spread limit games are interesting, but my NL experience is strictly in tournaments, other than a rack I donked off at the MGM last year after drinking all day. I know there are some terrible players in there spewing money, but I can't get comfortable with the swings yet. It takes me hours to lose $300 in a 4/8 game; I can lose twice that in one hand at NL. Sitting there for hours nutpeddling until I get a feel for the game doesn't sound too exciting.

[Abagadro]

I'd definitely feel at home at a 4/8 kill game, particularly as those game often just end up being 8-16 games with an extra blind in.

[shiznitz]

My usual is a 4/8 game with a full kill. Kills are tough as far as the variance goes (never know how many there will be), but they are a goldmine to good players.

Pleesse essplain.

[Wolf]

I just bluffed at a pot at heads up on a small online tourney, board was 5/8/j I had some shitty hand like 6/2, he had an 8 in his hand and another overcard. Turn and River were both 6s :P

Anyway, I just started playing online and I'm hating it. I started playing very loose a couple of nights ago, I think I subconciously want to go bust, so I never have to play again. I'm up E10 since than... :(

edit:
I can't fucking die. Finished second in another sit and go tournament - got a gadzillion pairs (like 10ish pairs for 20 minutes), even called an overpair preflop for all in and caught quads. I'm on fire :P

[WayAbvPar]

My usual is a 4/8 game with a full kill. Kills are tough as far as the variance goes (never know how many there will be), but they are a goldmine to good players.

Pleesse essplain.

Getting extra money into the pot against bad players in profitable in the long run...that is pretty much the simple version. The long version is all the factors that differentiate the good players from the bad- calculating pot odds, keeping enough chips in front of you at all times to make sure you get properly paid off for a monster hand, starting hand selection, positional play, etc. Basically- a good player can adjust on the fly to kill pot, while the bad players play their same game at  higher stake for the hand.

[Nebu]

I'm really starting to miss online poker.  I was at a conference in Reno recently and spent some time in the poker room.   Being surrounded by smelly people with big mouths and bad etiquette really turned me off to the live game.  At least online, I could turn their chat off. 

[WayAbvPar]

After getting over the initial nervousness, I enjoy live play a lot more than online. However, online was awfully damned convenient (and profitable). In an ideal world I would have the option to do both as I saw fit.

[Nebu]

Oh... people that get visibly irritated over losing $20 need to get the fuck out of poker rooms. 

There, I said it. 

[Margalis]

I mostly play live now, though not very often. At this point it's a way for me to hang out for a weekend with my attached friends.

I play really sloppy online and one of my best traits is paying attention to betting patterns but online I tend to let my mind wander.

[Wolf]

I play really sloppy online and one of my best traits is paying attention to betting patterns but online I tend to let my mind wander.

I have absolutely the same problem. Also I'm quite good at picking up on body language, I don't know it just comes naturally but at times I can tell if a guy is bluffing or has a hand. The other thing is that I don't have much experience, and some times 20 seconds are waaaaaaaay not enough to make a decision weather to fold or call.

WAP - I'm wondering, what do you consider a good starting hand? I have a friend that always nags on me that I will pay a decent raise with A/2 suited. And I will do it consistently, from time to time I'll even play other crappy suited connectors like 7/8 or 8/9.

[eldaec]

WAP - I'm wondering, what do you consider a good starting hand? I have a friend that always nags on me that I will pay a decent raise with A/2 suited. And I will do it consistently, from time to time I'll even play other crappy suited connectors like 7/8 or 8/9.

Discount this advice as much as you like because I'm not great at poker, but I prefer 78s or 89s to A2s; though I wouldn't normally play any of them into a big raise from a decent player.

The problem with A2 is that people play aces. So flopping a high pair can tempt you into trouble with 2 as a kicker, and the chance of a high pair is the only thing A2 has over 73 (both make exactly one straight), and you wouldn't play 73, suited or otherwise.

With a 78 or 89, you likely know if you are ahead or have a serious chance of drawing a winning hand as soon as the flop comes down. A2 is harder to play.

[Wolf]

Yeah, I am aware of how crappy the hand is and how it can get me in trouble. It has too many times to count, but i've also floped the nuts so many times with it, it's not funny. Maybe it's my Brunson :P

[WayAbvPar]

WAP - I'm wondering, what do you consider a good starting hand? I have a friend that always nags on me that I will pay a decent raise with A/2 suited. And I will do it consistently, from time to time I'll even play other crappy suited connectors like 7/8 or 8/9.

When I first starting playing seriously, I used the Sklansky Hand Rankings pretty religiously. With more experience, I learned to adapt my starting hand requirements to the table I was playing.

For the example you gave- I wouldn't cold call two bets with A2 suited unless I was getting a huge price from the pot- like UTG raised and EVERYONE called to me on the button. I like the suited connectors better, but I am not a fan of cold calling raises. If a hand is good enough to call two bets with, it should be good enough to raise with. Every bet you save is just as valuable as a bet you win.

Played last night for a couple of hours in a 4/8 full kill (which means if someone wins 2 pots in a row, they post an 8 dollar 'kill' which is like an extra blind, and the hand is played as 8/16).  Two hands of note-

Reasonably aggressive guy open raises UTG. Middle position calls, Middle Position 2 calls, folded to me on the button. I have Kd Qd, and I make it 3 bets. Small blind folds, BB calls, UTG caps it at 4 bets. Everyone calls, and we go to the flop with 20 small bets in the pot.

Flop is Ah 8d 9s

UTG bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, and I call (pot is too damned big to fold for a 22-1 price). BB folds, and we go to the turn.

Turn is 7d

UTG bets, MP1 folds. I now have a 2nd nut flush draw, so I call. To the river-

River is 2d

UTG bets, I raise, he stares at the board for 30 seconds mumbling to himself, and then calls and turns over Ad Ac. His head nearly explodes when I table my flush.

2nd hand-

2 limpers to me on the button. I have TT, and raise. SB folds, BB calls, limpers call.

Flop is KK9 rainbow. Checked to MP. He bets, 1 fold, I call, and BB calls.

Turn is 7. Checked all around.

River is 6. BB bets, MP calls. I think about it for a minute, figure I'm beat, and muck my hand. BB shows A6, MP shows A9, and I show my disgust at myself for playing my hand like a dumbass.

Discuss. 

[Abagadro]

Cold calling a raise when you shouldn't is the biggest leak bad players have IMO. A good rule of thumb is that if you don't have a hand that is in a position to 3-bet, you should just fold. A2s is a horrible had to cold-call with because you are either a huge dog or completely dominated and not many people will be in the pot to give you the pot-odds to justify the call. Same with low suited connectors, although those aren't quite as bad from a domination standpoint. I'd only call two bets with those cards if I am in the cut-off or button and at least 5 people are going to be in the pot.


EDIT: Just noticed that Way covered most of this. Oh well.

[Abagadro]

River is 6. BB bets, MP calls. I think about it for a minute, figure I'm beat, and muck my hand. BB shows A6, MP shows A9, and I show my disgust at myself for playing my hand like a dumbass.

I bet that turn. The flop better checking screams that he was bluffing the K.  Your bet will look like you were laying in the weeds and are now concerned with a check-trough. Players rarely will wait for the river for a check-raise or even a straight raise on that kind of board, so you will find out if someone has a King with a bet as well here and can get out of it.  Probably 60-70% of the time your bet will take it down right there.

With how you played it, I am calling that river. The turn check-through shows weakness all around and you essentially have an overpair at that point. You are closing the action so 1 BB is all it will take. One of the things I really took out of Ed Miller's book is how big of a mistake it is to fold on the river for one bet 80-90% of the time.

[SnakeCharmer]

This thread makes me want to watch "Rounders"....

[WayAbvPar]

River is 6. BB bets, MP calls. I think about it for a minute, figure I'm beat, and muck my hand. BB shows A6, MP shows A9, and I show my disgust at myself for playing my hand like a dumbass.

I bet that turn. The flop better checking screams that he was bluffing the K.  Your bet will look like you were laying in the weeds and are now concerned with a check-trough. Players rarely will wait for the river for a check-raise or even a straight raise on that kind of board, so you will find out if someone has a King with a bet as well here and can get out of it.  Probably 60-70% of the time your bet will take it down right there.

With how you played it, I am calling that river. The turn check-through shows weakness all around and you essentially have an overpair at that point. You are closing the action so 1 BB is all it will take. One of the things I really took out of Ed Miller's book is how big of a mistake it is to fold on the river for one bet 80-90% of the time.

Yeah, I was not happy with how I played it. The BB was an older woman who was new to the table, but whom some of the staff seemed to recognize. I think I gave her more credit than she deserved. If she had bet and the other guy folded, I would have called. I just couldn't see being good vs 2 other hands.

Betting the turn would have cleared up a lot of things for me. I am still shaking my head trying to figure out why I played this so passively. MUTB syndrome ftl.

[Wolf]

So if I get it right, you guys mostly play something that is not no limit (fixed? pot limit?)? What's a 3 bet - triple the big blind?

[Abagadro]

We both play limit which is usually structured with a small and big blind of one half of a small bet and a small bet. Pre-flop you can raise the amount of the big blind and someone can 3-bet which is to add another amount equal to the big  blind. This can go on until it is "capped" which is usually 5 or 6 bets depending upon the room. On the flop, again the first bet is a "small bet" which was the amount of the big blind and the betting proceeds the same way.  On the turn and river you can bet the "big bet" which is two times the big blind.  For instance, in a 4-8 game, the blinds are usually 2 & 4, with betting being 4 per bet pre-flop, 4 on the flop, 8 on the turn and 8 on the river. The game I get stuck playing is a "spread game" of 2-5 with 1/2 blinds. You can bet anywhere between 2 & 5 on any street. Functionally in that everyone just bets 5 all the time if they want to bet or raise which is one of the reasons I don't really like it.

Kill buttons get even more complicated. Way plays in a "win 2 pots and you get a kill button" game which is pretty simple and doesn't happen all that often. That game I play in had a "pot over X (usually 10BB)" then the player gets a kill and it turns from a 2-5 spread game to a 5/10 limit game. It confuses the hell out of people who haven't played it, even those who play poker regularly elsewhere. If it wasn't the only legal live game within 600 miles of me I wouldn't play it in.

[WayAbvPar]

Called around and can't find an Xbox 360 Elite system locally, so it is off to the card room I go to earn more money to pay for it  :-D

[Wolf]

Here's one for you guys. I don't know why these people show up for our games, like omg someone brought a colleague, but they always seem to bust me. I'm on the big blind, I get three limpers up to me (basicly everyone) and have AQ of hearts. I raise something like 3 or 4 times the big blind and it's pretty late into the game. First guy after me pays, the guy on the button folds and the guy from the small blind pays. Flop comes 8h 9h and Qc. Small blind checks to me, I bet a solid ammount. Guy after me folds, small blind dude pays. Turn is 4h and I make my flush, and I'm thinking "Boy, let's hope he has a hand". Check to me, I bet again, like two times the previous bet. He pays up, I'm a happy bugger. River comes 8c. I'm sitting there, thinking to myself this is not fucking happening to me. Small Blind guy looks at the board, and bets all in (which is like 1/3 of the pot at this moment, which is like at least 20 Euro at the moment). I must have tried to lay the hand down for like 7-8 minutes but couldn't make myself do it. I was thinking, did he really pay my initial raise with something as lame as 89 or 84... or is he really making a move? In the end I payed up to see his eights over nines full. The pot was something like 30 Euro, which is pretty fucking huge for our games, where we buy in with like 10.

ps: I rebought and went out again on the next hand, where I floped a straight and the other dude hit runner, runner for a bigger straight. Yay luck!

[El Gallo]

Is anyone going to WSOP this year?  I'm thinking about donating to one of the early NLHE events this year, even though I haven't been playing much for a long while.  I feel the bug building up.

WAP - I'm wondering, what do you consider a good starting hand? I have a friend that always nags on me that I will pay a decent raise with A/2 suited. And I will do it consistently, from time to time I'll even play other crappy suited connectors like 7/8 or 8/9.

I highly recommend getting PokerOffice or PokerTracker or a similar utility and playing 10,000 hands they way you currently play.  You can read all you want about how that isn't a hand you should cold call with, but it won't have the effect of looking at your stats and seeing how much you lose playing that way over a statistically significant number of hands.

Me, I wouldn't generally cold call that hand ever, but could imagine a table where cold calling it makes money if you are pretty fucking sure others will follow.  You absolutely have to be a guy willing to fold As2s on a AcJd8s board with any significant amount of action though, I think. 

Please note that I am not as good as AB or WUP, so if they have different advice, listen to them.

[WayAbvPar]

My local card barn is running a couple of WSOP satellites- $170 for 180 person field, top 2 get seats plus a bit of spending money. I have only played one other tourney for that kind of prize (WA State Poker Championship a couple years ago- not 'official' I don't think. It paid 10 spots. I came in 11th when I made a flush on the turn and my opponent filled up on the river. Not that I am bitter. Two years later). I think I am probably good enough to get fairly deep, but when it gets down to it, there is still luck involved.

[Rasix]

Well, just played my first game in about a year.  It was my brother-in-law's turn to hold the monthly work/neighbor/friend poker game and I drove up from Tucson to attend.  11 players, started out limit and then later on they took the training wheels off.

30 dollar buy-in and I walked away with $160.  I was really cold-decked during the limit portion and just managed to keep myself above water.  I started winning hands in no-limit and then I uhh.. dropped a bomb on the table. 

Dealt: Ks, 10d

Flop: As, Qs, some card (don't remember)

Turn: Js

River: 10s

3 other people made flushes on the river.   Only one folded after I lead off with a $20 dollar bet and 2 went all in (too bad they were some of the smaller stacks).  I imagine that may be the only time in my life I'll get that hand.

Played for roughly 8.5 hours.  Lost only one big hand where my dad of all people had beat a full house of mine.  Started to get whittled down towards the end a little where it switched to dealer's choice (only about 4 folks left) and I was seriously drunk and tired.  Lots of fun and I think I'm obligated to drive up for the next game.   :-D

[WayAbvPar]

Having people bet into you when you are holding the mortal nuts is one of the greatest joys in poker. Had it happen to me Friday night with KT, coincidentally enough. Made the nut straight on the turn and the river didn't change things. He bet,  I raised, he 3 bet, I capped and he folded (WTF)? Was stuck 2 racks plus when he came to the table, left $20 to the good. Gotta love it.

[Abagadro]

I ended up on a final table tonight with the 2007 WSOP women's world champion Sally Boyer. When she made a move against me with that bracelet on her arm, I just couldn't call even though I should have (it would have been a marginal call when she went all in as the SB against my BB and all I had was 63s getting about 2.8 to 1, it would have been about 1/2 my stack). I did have her all-in at one point with me as the favorite, but she sucked out on me.  I can confirm that she is good with a short stack as she went from nothing (when I was chip leader with about 8 to go) to finishing above me. I had 3 nasty suck outs hit against me while I was trying to push around the table with my stack as we neared the bubble. I ended up 4th. Decent cash (although it was a dinky tourney so not a lot of money) considering I've played a total of 3 tournaments in the last year.