God's Punishment on Hypocrites

[Signe]

In his last years, Jerry Falwell always reminded of the Pillsbury Dough Boy.

[Furiously]

Somehow I dont see him going "Tee-hee" if you poke him in the tummy.

[stray]

Somehow I dont see him going "Tee-hee" if you poke him in the tummy.

Larry Flynt tried poking him once, and got a decade long court battle out of it.

[Sky]

Today, God has decided to punishment upon the Rev. Jerry Falwell for being a scumsucking dirtbag.  He was found unconscious upon the floor of his office and is currently in serious condition.

Guess he missed the whole bit about gluttony.

And maybe a lesson or two from Jesus about tolerance and forgiveness.

Ah, well. What do I know, I'm an atheist. According to Triforcer that makes me a commie dictator.

[SnakeCharmer]

I hope that isn't directed at me (just wondering, because you didn't quote anything). I happen to like public education, so I'm not being a hypocrite about what I said. 

Nah.

Just people being intolerant (and filled with seething hate/rage) for a person who was intolerant of their views doesn't exactly help their cause much.

[Tebonas]

Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach had a saying for people with arguments like yours:

"Der Klügere gibt nach. Eine traurige Wahrheit. Sie begründet die Weltherrschaft der Dummheit!"

The Cleverer give in. A sad truth. It is the foundation of the global dominance of stupidity"

[SnakeCharmer]

See?  Perfect example.

People preaching for tolerance need to be tolerant of other peoples opposing views.  If they aren't, then they're no better than the Falwells of the world.

Best course of action is to say "Well, your loss" to those that will never come around and move on with their life.

[Abagadro]

I hope that isn't directed at me (just wondering, because you didn't quote anything). I happen to like public education, so I'm not being a hypocrite about what I said. 

Nah.

Just people being intolerant (and filled with seething hate/rage) for a person who was intolerant of their views doesn't exactly help their cause much.

This meme is always pretty funny to me. It's such a blatant and facile attempt to claim a nonexistent high-ground as means of avoiding actually having to justify the warped views of the guy.

I'll admit it: I'm "intolerant" of asswads that are significantly responsible for poisoning public policy on numerous issues in service of a twisted viewpoint and helping to fuck up the country.  I guess I'm a bad person.

EDIT: Oh, and I didn't hate Falwell because he was "intolerant". I hated him because we was wrong about everything yet had a disproportionate amount of political power in this country. Plus he was an asshole.

[Merusk]

I don't see it as such, Abo.  Just poking folks for not recognizing their own hypocrisy isn't claiming a high-ground unless you're then going to try and preach down to them. 

That said, yeah the guy had way too much power and influence and his line of thinking always scared the fuck out of me.  I worry more that I see it becoming more and more prevalent as time goes on. The lack of education and critical thinking is coming to a head, and it's not going to be pretty.

[Abagadro]

But it isn't hypocrisy. That's the thing. It's a strawman argument to begin with.

[SnakeCharmer]

I hope that isn't directed at me (just wondering, because you didn't quote anything). I happen to like public education, so I'm not being a hypocrite about what I said. 

Nah.

Just people being intolerant (and filled with seething hate/rage) for a person who was intolerant of their views doesn't exactly help their cause much.

This meme is always pretty funny to me. It's such a blatant and facile attempt to claim a nonexistent high-ground as means of avoiding actually having to justify the warped views of the guy.

I'll admit it: I'm "intolerant" of asswads that are significantly responsible for poisoning public policy on numerous issues in service of a twisted viewpoint and helping to fuck up the country.  I guess I'm a bad person.

EDIT: Oh, and I didn't hate Falwell because he was "intolerant". I hated him because we was wrong about everything yet had a disproportionate amount of political power in this country. Plus he was an asshole.

He hasn't (or didn't) fuck up the country any worse than anyone else has.  He's the extreme right that opposes the extreme left, which adds balance.

I'm not trying (and havent) to justify any of his views.  Never once turned this thread political, unless you want to say "being intolerant of people that intolerant to you because they don't agree with your views' is hypocritical.  

You (speaking generally here) want tolerance?  Then lead by example.  Instead, you get "you're stupid!!!" responses such as the one above.

FWIW, I disagree with alot of what Falwell pushed for, primarily because I believe in an absolute seperation of church and state and have no problem removing "In God We Trust" from our currency, and removing "Under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance (bet some of you never saw that coming, did you?)

[Abagadro]

He hasn't (or didn't) fuck up the country any worse than anyone else has.

That's a highly debatable proposition.

Like I said, it's a strawman argument. You are positing that the dislike for Falwell is based upon the nebulous concept of him being "intolerant" when that has really nothing to do with it. 

[SnakeCharmer]

He hasn't (or didn't) fuck up the country any worse than anyone else has.

That's a highly debatable proposition.

Like I said, it's a strawman argument. You are positing that the dislike for Falwell is based upon the nebulous concept of him being "intolerant" when that has really nothing to do with it. 

Eh, whatever you say.

But it's still quite sad that people are dancing over the grave of someone who tried to lead their life for God, and has friends and family that are going to miss him.  To me, it's just dispicable.

As much as I hate the Kennedys and view them much like people here view Falwell, I'd not be dancing a jig if one of them croaked.

[stray]

I worry more that I see it becoming more and more prevalent as time goes on. The lack of education and critical thinking is coming to a head, and it's not going to be pretty.

I think it'll be fine, and may not even escalate like many other issues in America's past (like slavery or segregation). To use a cliche, America is a project, slowly chipping away at all the little humps of intolerance and injustice it's faced over the years. Religious bigotry is just another face of the same disease that America, and ideas like it, were specifically built to fight. And it'll win, just like it has won against everything else that's come against it.

Either these bigots will be outright silenced, or their own offspring will silence them while they themselves die off, or they'll finally get with the program of their own free will and realize that this is a brave new world not fit for medieval thinking. And in the end, what will be left of them will be so insignificant that they won't matter much (kind of like how segregationists are treated now).

[SnakeCharmer]

I worry more that I see it becoming more and more prevalent as time goes on. The lack of education and critical thinking is coming to a head, and it's not going to be pretty.

I think it'll be fine, and may not even escalate like many other issues in America's past (like slavery or segregation). To use a cliche, America is a project, slowly chipping away at all the little humps of intolerance and injustice it's faced over the years. Religious bigotry is just another face of the same disease that America, and ideas like it, were specifically built to fight. And it'll win, just like it has won against everything else that's come against it.

Either these bigots will be outright silenced, or their own offspring will silence them while they themselves die off, or they'll finally get with the program of their own free will and realize that this is a brave new world not fit for medieval thinking. And in the end, what will be left of them will be so insignificant that they won't matter much (kind of like how segregationists are treated now).

Nah, someone else will just step up to the plate.  Same for both sides of the fence.

[Abagadro]

He hasn't (or didn't) fuck up the country any worse than anyone else has.

That's a highly debatable proposition.

Like I said, it's a strawman argument. You are positing that the dislike for Falwell is based upon the nebulous concept of him being "intolerant" when that has really nothing to do with it. 

Eh, whatever you say.

But it's still quite sad that people are dancing over the grave of someone who tried to lead their life for God, and has friends and family that are going to miss him.  To me, it's just dispicable.

As much as I hate the Kennedys and view them much like people here view Falwell, I'd not be dancing a jig if one of them croaked.

Ah, we now have Part II. The "you are sad little people and I wouldn't do that" stage of moralizing.  I guess you are just a much better person than the rest of us. Thank you for blessing us rabble with your presence.

[Merusk]

But it isn't hypocrisy. That's the thing. It's a strawman argument to begin with.

Under the dictionary definition of hypocracy, you're right.  Under the common useage of the word.. debatable.

  "Hypocrite" is used a lot these days to describe someone who's attacking an idea or person, yet showing those same traits they're attacking.  The reasoning being if you're attacking it, then you must be against it and therefore have a belief system counter to that trait.  So, you're being hypocritical by proclaiming a belief (by proxy) that you don't actually hold.

That better?  

[Triforcer]

Today, God has decided to punishment upon the Rev. Jerry Falwell for being a scumsucking dirtbag.  He was found unconscious upon the floor of his office and is currently in serious condition.

Guess he missed the whole bit about gluttony.

And maybe a lesson or two from Jesus about tolerance and forgiveness.

Ah, well. What do I know, I'm an atheist. According to Triforcer that makes me a commie dictator.

I didn't say every atheist is a communist.  You provided a quote about how great the world would be if all religion was gone.  I provided examples of soceties where religion was gone.  How hard is this to understand?

Re: Entire discussion:  As always, I am amazed that the left has adopted sneering contempt as the best selling strategy for their views.  Ask the guy you quoted (Adams) and his Federalist Party- saying "I hate you and you're stupid, adopt my views and vote for me" is curious marketing, at best.  

[SnakeCharmer]

He hasn't (or didn't) fuck up the country any worse than anyone else has.

That's a highly debatable proposition.

Like I said, it's a strawman argument. You are positing that the dislike for Falwell is based upon the nebulous concept of him being "intolerant" when that has really nothing to do with it. 

Eh, whatever you say.

But it's still quite sad that people are dancing over the grave of someone who tried to lead their life for God, and has friends and family that are going to miss him.  To me, it's just dispicable.

As much as I hate the Kennedys and view them much like people here view Falwell, I'd not be dancing a jig if one of them croaked.

Ah, we now have Part II. The "you are sad little people and I wouldn't do that" stage of moralizing.  I guess you are just a much better person than the rest of us. Thank you for blessing us rabble with your presence.

You're welcome.

(probably needs to be moved to politics...)

[Abagadro]

Today, God has decided to punishment upon the Rev. Jerry Falwell for being a scumsucking dirtbag.  He was found unconscious upon the floor of his office and is currently in serious condition.

Guess he missed the whole bit about gluttony.

And maybe a lesson or two from Jesus about tolerance and forgiveness.

Ah, well. What do I know, I'm an atheist. According to Triforcer that makes me a commie dictator.

I didn't say every atheist is a communist.  You provided a quote about how great the world would be if all religion was gone.  I provided examples of soceties where religion was gone.  How hard is this to understand?

Re: Entire discussion:  As always, I am amazed that the left has adopted sneering contempt as the best selling strategy for their views.  Ask the guy you quoted (Adams) and his Federalist Party- saying "I hate you and you're stupid, adopt my views and vote for me" is curious marketing, at best. 

Oh please. Sneering contempt was patented by the likes of Falwell 30 years ago. Moralizing assholes looking down their noses at those without "family values" as a means of delegitimizing them. Give me a break.

[Roac]

Oh please. Sneering contempt was patented by the likes of Falwell 30 years ago. Moralizing assholes looking down their noses at those without "family values" as a means of delegitimizing them. Give me a break.

Selecting the worst examples of your opponents in order to categorically demonize them was a tactic used well before 30 years ago, and by more people than "moralizing assholes".  Maybe it's probably better to say that it's only used by moralizing assholes, but that people constantly redefine what's moral to fit their own views.  Afterall, the only way to demonize a group is by pointing out how immoral they are.  It's just that you do it with a moving frame of reference on morality depending on what group you belong to.

[Abagadro]

I never claimed that it was exclusive. I just find it funny when some people pretend like their own shit doesn't stink.

[Xanthippe]

My favorite Falwell eulogy.

[Signe]

My favorite Falwell eulogy.

To steal Cheddar's favourite phrase:  Tee hee.   

[Ironwood]

Oh please. Sneering contempt was patented by the likes of Falwell 30 years ago. Moralizing assholes looking down their noses at those without "family values" as a means of delegitimizing them. Give me a break.

Selecting the worst examples of your opponents in order to categorically demonize them was a tactic used well before 30 years ago, and by more people than "moralizing assholes".  Maybe it's probably better to say that it's only used by moralizing assholes, but that people constantly redefine what's moral to fit their own views.  Afterall, the only way to demonize a group is by pointing out how immoral they are.  It's just that you do it with a moving frame of reference on morality depending on what group you belong to.

Christ, I really think the worst punishment we could give you Roac, would be to lock you up in a room of your own with no-one around.  You'd beat yourself up in a week after losing a marathon debate with yourself.

As to you, Snake, you make no fucking sense in this thread and even less of a fucking point, so go preach on your own fucking mountain.

It's not being hypocritical to say that you think someone's a fuckhead and you're glad he's dead.  If, however, I spent my life saying 'fuckheads shouldn't be mocked after death' publically, then maybe.

This is not intolerance, certainly not on my part.  I'm just GLAD he's dead.  There's no hypocrisy.


This shouldn't be moved to politics.  It's not worth it, no matter how much you might think it's all about you.

[Fabricated]

Christopher Hitchens must've put down the scotch long enough to say something correct for once.

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/05/16/hitchens-slams-falwells-life/

I agree with nearly 100% of that.

[SnakeCharmer]

Oh please. Sneering contempt was patented by the likes of Falwell 30 years ago. Moralizing assholes looking down their noses at those without "family values" as a means of delegitimizing them. Give me a break.

Selecting the worst examples of your opponents in order to categorically demonize them was a tactic used well before 30 years ago, and by more people than "moralizing assholes".  Maybe it's probably better to say that it's only used by moralizing assholes, but that people constantly redefine what's moral to fit their own views.  Afterall, the only way to demonize a group is by pointing out how immoral they are.  It's just that you do it with a moving frame of reference on morality depending on what group you belong to.

Christ, I really think the worst punishment we could give you Roac, would be to lock you up in a room of your own with no-one around.  You'd beat yourself up in a week after losing a marathon debate with yourself.

As to you, Snake, you make no fucking sense in this thread and even less of a fucking point, so go preach on your own fucking mountain.

It's not being hypocritical to say that you think someone's a fuckhead and you're glad he's dead.  If, however, I spent my life saying 'fuckheads shouldn't be mocked after death' publically, then maybe.

This is not intolerance, certainly not on my part.  I'm just GLAD he's dead.  There's no hypocrisy.


This shouldn't be moved to politics.  It's not worth it, no matter how much you might think it's all about you.

Way to miss the point.

I'm not saying it's hypocritical to be glad someone is dead.  Pathetic maybe.  Hypocritial?  Not so much.  We're not talking about a mass murderer here, or someone guilty of genocide, or a serial killer.  We're talking about what essentially boils down to a preacher.

Who never had a child out of wedlock, incidentally.

But that's neither here nor there.

I AM saying that those who want tolerance for their <whatever deviant lifestyle> or <policital views> would do better to NOT be so intolerant of those that have views that differ from their own.  I'm sorry if that's too abstract of a thought for you to comprehend.  If you (speaking generally here, so that YOU don't think it's now about YOU - which I never made or thought the thread was about me) want people to be 'tolerant', then be a little less vindictive, bitter, and in general, a little bit less of a whiny bitch.

I'm not saying it should be moved to politics because of hypocrisy, or that I think it's about me (how you arrived at that conclusion I'll never know - other than I've posted in this thread as much or more than anyone), is because it's about an (obviously - dur) a political figure - religion be damned.

As I said before:  A member of the Kennedys could die, and I would have heartfelt sorrow for the family.  Be dancing?  No.  Say "Feel my bile, bitch?"  No.  Be glad he or she is dead?  Nah.  I guess I like to see the good in most things and in most people.  How in the world have you not sent your brains to visit the nearest wall with such a negative outlook on life?

[Ironwood]

Heh.  Deviant Lifestyle.

Fuck his family.  Fuck him.  Fuck their sorrow.

I hope they follow him down the pit.

When that fuck Phelps dies too, I'll also be doing the jig and having SEEN his family, you'll be damn sure my line will be the same. 

Child out of Wedlock.  Deviant Lifestyle.

Jesus Wept.

[stray]

I see where you're going Snake, and I agree with you to an extent.

Gotta disagree with the Kennedy comparison though. This is much more personal than that. The Kennedy family (lol) may simply be politically disagreeable to people of a conservative persuasion, but Falwell was another thing entirely that transcends simple political disagreement. Him and his like are literally a destructive force to the way many people want to lead their personal lives.

Fortunately, he wasn't actually very successful at being as destructive as he'd like --- but the intention was there -- and that's why people damn him so much.

[Calantus]

I hope that isn't directed at me (just wondering, because you didn't quote anything). I happen to like public education, so I'm not being a hypocrite about what I said. 

Nah.

Just people being intolerant (and filled with seething hate/rage) for a person who was intolerant of their views doesn't exactly help their cause much.

There's a difference between "tolerating" people for being what they are when being so harms no-one, and tolerating people who spread hate and vitriol out of misguided sense of self-righteousness. Notice I put "tolerating" in quotes because frankly I don't see why anyone needs to tolerate gays or blacks or anything of that nature. I tolerate my young nephew being a fucking brat when I'm dragged to family gatherings because hey he's a little kid and he's going to jump around like an idiot and talk really loud for no good reason whatsoever. I tolerate the loud party of a neighbour cause hey let em have that fun for the night it's not like they do it all the time. You don't have to tolerate someone being gay, it should be a non-issue unless they're tongue-wrestling in your face. To tolerate something you should have to be put out in some way first, anything else goes under the heading of "not being a raging dickhead".

[Engels]

Well said, Calantus.

[Murgos]

I see where you're going Snake, and I agree with you to an extent.

I don't.  He's confused.  Disagreeing with Jerry Falwell is not being intolerant of his views.  Disagreeing with Jerry Falwell is not being intolerant of other religions or ways of life.

Jerry Falwell was intolerant not because he disagreed with people but because he sought to change them, not because he had a well reasoned and compelling argument that a rational mind could see was correct, no, he just wanted to change people because they didn't agree with him.

It's not a subtle difference.  It's actually quite glaring.

[Margalis]

Why is Snakecharmer so intolerant of our intolerance for the intolerant? What a hypocrite...

[SnakeCharmer]

Why is Snakecharmer so intolerant of our intolerance for the intolerant? What a hypocrite...

lol!!

[CmdrSlack]

I think he was  a jacktard.  I'm also not glad he's dead.  Really, I guess I just don't feel one way or the other about his death.  So yeah...I'm not cheering or sobbing, just kinda...oh hey, that dude's dead. 

So I don't know where that puts me in this moralizing, etc., but certainly, I don't think he was an overall positive person to have around, even if his church managed to help some people along the way -- teaching intolerance is just rather uncool.  That said, it sucks for his family and friends that he's gone.  I guess.