Roseanne Barr is not PC

[stray]

I just didn't have the level of discipline to put that much into it.  I'd just pick up my guitar whenever I felt like it, rather than devoting X amount of time per day.

And the result.... I can't really play.  I can play a few things sloppily, and on a bass I'm competent enough to jam with people who are talented enough to cover up my playing, but I'm definitely no musician and if anyone asks if I play an instrument, my answer is "no".

Though I do keep looking at bass thinking I should give it a serious try sometime.

I didn't put X amount of time in it either. I think I just started getting good once I got comfortable and confident with what my style was. Or rather, I got good at being me :). I can hold my own and jam with anyone as long as I just do what I do best -- and I'll fail miserably if I don't keep it in mind.

Never had the patience for the theory behind things, and lost interest in replicating other people's songs as well (if it comes to that though, I'll get a basic understanding for what's happening in the melody and beat -- then mangle it and do it my way).

First three years or so did require a less careless attitude though. You gotta actually learn something before you take your own route, I guess!

[Sky]

but most true musicians tell me I really have no style and am breaking all the rules

Really, as long as it sounds good to you, fuck 'em. I love to put my classical knowledge to use in slow minor blues, I'll start doing bach-style movements over the changes. Fuck 'em, it sounds good to me. I'm actually a bit tentative about jamming at our local blues jam, because there are a lot of blues snobs there, which cracks me up. The one thing that seems to be an ok deviation from blues is jazzy blues. I'm not a big jazz fan, so that bugs me.

I was taking some lessons last year, trying to kick start my playing. While I realized the thing holding me back is my own reluctance to embrace theory, the instructor kept telling me I should learn jazz because it's an advanced, thinking man's blues. Despite telling him my only interest is in old country and chicago blues, delta slide type stuff, he persisted. Between being able to study theory on my own (for free) and his jazz nagging, I dropped him. You can't tell another player what they should be playing, you know what you want to play, and that's what you should focus on playing.

The best teacher of the blues are records in this day and age, unfortunately.

I was playing some King Diamond "Family Ghost" last night. Just wondered if I could still pick things out by ear. The solos I improv'd but I nailed the rhythms pretty good. I should really go back and learn some Mercyful Fate, that band ruled (if you could deal with King's wonky falsetto).

[Damn Dirty Ape]

I learned music theory through the software Modedit and Modplay back in the early '90s.  It had four tracks and you entered samples with pitch and effect vertically in hex format.  Typically, I wrote with the first two tracks emulating a drum kit and the last two being primarily bass and guitar/keys with the goal of mimicking a rock trio.  The more I wrote, the better I got at actual tune composition.

I wish the software still ran but it's too ancient.  I'd love to find a modern equivalent with similar notation input.

[Selby]

Really, as long as it sounds good to you, fuck 'em.

Which was my general attitude.  Lots of snobby musicians.  I mean really, I know Eric Clapton has written some good songs, but not EVERYTHING has to sound like his.  He isn't the ruler that I use to measure how good my playing style is.  Neither is Jimmy Page.  I used to fret about actually hitting things note for note and everyone ridiculing me for not being able to do it.  They worshipped Page and Clapton.  Then I listened to Page play live.  Damn was the guy sloppy live.  He missed notes and changed songs around all of the time.  I then realized if their "idol" would wing things live just to change it up, then me missing 2-3 notes during Stairway and adding my own interpretation to Over The Hills And Far Away was fine too.

But then I was an anti-social bastard so playing music with other people never really worked well for me.  Musicians and friends are two different things... my "friends" who were musicians really weren't friends, more like guys I had to work with in school on projects that I hated but needed around to get the grade.  Friends who just happened to play an instrument were much more fun, but much fewer and far between.

I was playing some King Diamond "Family Ghost" last night. Just wondered if I could still pick things out by ear. The solos I improv'd but I nailed the rhythms pretty good. I should really go back and learn some Mercyful Fate, that band ruled (if you could deal with King's wonky falsetto).

Mercyful Fate's Melissa and Don't Break the Oath were godly.  King's solo material was pretty strong when he surrounded himself with good players too.  It seems like the guy has a good album every 1-2 albums he does.  And King's falsetto ruled.  I could do it when I used to sing to myself in the car on long road trips...

[stray]

Right on. Not even the guys who created the songs play the same way half of the time. It's just one captured moment in a studio, out of many. Replicating a entire lead part is just silly. I never understood that -- Partly due to laziness maybe, but still, I always thought it was pointless.

At best, just go for "in the style of" -- and if you can get away with it within the beats given to you, don't even do that. Do something completely different. I mean, that's exactly what Page, Clapton, or Richards are doing in their songs anyways. ..Taking all the stuff they learned as kids, and reinterpreting things in their own way. It's not like Jimmy Page played Leadbelly exactly the way Leadbelly played his songs either.

That's what creativity is all about, I think. I think if you do anything less, then you're like the guitar equivalent of an Elvis impersonator.

[Selby]

Replicating a entire lead part is just silly. I never understood that -- Partly due to laziness maybe, but still, I always thought it was pointless.

I always would do it on a song if I really respected what the player was doing and wanted to give it a tribute.  Then once I learned it I said "screw it" and would hit highlights and follow the structure, but definitely not hitting everything note for note.  I could play Page, but never note for note.  Too much effort, too much wasted time.  If someone walked up to me while I was playing it, they would say "hey, that sounds like Black Dog" and I would say "yes it does."  The snobs would say "not enough distortion" or "not using the right guitar sound."  I gave that the big middle finger.  And played away.  I partially attribute this to live recordings of my favorite artists - AC\DC, Slayer, Zeppelin.  All played close live, sometimes not even trying, but it was definitely fun to listen to.  The note-for-note live albums were not something I dug then and still don't now (I'm looking at YOU "Exit... Stage Left").

[Damn Dirty Ape]

  I finished up my bass practice this morning with a run-through of "Jacob's Ladder" from Exit...Stage Left.  But I think I can see where you're coming from.  Earlier, I jammed to Zep's 1970 Royal Albert Hall concert, and had more fun picking up things by ear.  The Eddie Cochran covers kick ass and demonstrate the "play it your own way" approach that has been previously mentioned.

Truth be told, I learned alot more by playing along by ear to Disco, Funk, and New Wave than I ever had by working through a Rush tab.  But I prefer to listen to Prog and Hard Rock.  Go figure.

[Sky]

Then I listened to Page play live.  Damn was the guy sloppy live.  He missed notes and changed songs around all of the time.  I then realized if their "idol" would wing things live just to change it up, then me missing 2-3 notes during Stairway and adding my own interpretation to Over The Hills And Far Away was fine too.

When I was a dumbass kid, I thought Page was sloppy. Now I understand that really stretching out and going for the feel over the technical precision is the way to go, and it often results in sloppiness. It's why I don't bother rerecording a lot of the stuff I've posted here and elsewhere. I go for the moment, and I feel rerecording often loses the spark of creativity. "Since I've Been Loving You" is my favoritist Zep tune and my version had been straying from the album version for a while when I got the Zep two DVD set (which pwns). The version he does on there is an almost completely different jam and really prompted me to change it up every time I play it, incorporating stuff from both versions as well as lots of bluesy and classical fills (I love any minor blues where I can stretch out my old shred classical knowledge).

I do a mix of signature passages and improv. You want to stimulate the audience with some parts from the record and just jam out the rest. I lifted that from Page, but most good guitarists do it that way. It's one thing I love about moving to the blues from metal, where everything was so orchestrated it was like playing a classical piece, the same thing all the time once we had recorded it, it was pretty much the way it was (only changing when we'd get a new drummer).

Some solos are classic enough to play as recorded, a lot of Dave Gilmour's stuff I play note for note, because I don't think I can improve on perfection.

[Damn Dirty Ape]

Here's an entertaining write-up on Jimmy Page in which the issue of his "sloppiness" is addressed:

http://www.dinosaurrockguitar.com/bios/Page.shtml

[Selby]

It's one thing I love about moving to the blues from metal, where everything was so orchestrated it was like playing a classical piece, the same thing all the time once we had recorded it, it was pretty much the way it was (only changing when we'd get a new drummer).

Which is my biggest problem with playing metal.  It's the same.  Every.  Time.  No wild improv or bizarre passages tossed in (or hell, even different speeds and keys ala Zappa).  At best with metal you get the guitar solos with missed\extra notes, guitar sounds that may or may not be the same as the record, and the singer occasionally botching words (Slayer's Decade of Aggression is a perfect example of a real live show, mistakes and all).  Angus Young has his schtick he used to do on a variety of songs too, but I don't know if old age has done him on that yet (they sure sound slow when I last heard them).

I never faulted Page for playing sloppy, as a matter of fact I respected him more for it.  It's all about carrying the feel of the song and making the audience enjoy the music.  Page did it, even if he didn't bother to hit all of the notes spot on (to a lesser effect AC\DC does the same thing live, but I don't know if it's for effect or if they are just lazy).  My "friends" at the time just didn't get it.  To them the studio recording was the end all be all.  If you couldn't duplicate the record, you weren't a good player.  You had to have the right guitar and effects to make it sound good.  I personally love my $60 special that I got used 10 years ago.  It plays better than anything I've ever had before and keeps tune great.  I don't think I could buy a $1500 guitar that I would enjoy much better than this one, but that's just because I spent so long getting it to sound the way I like and learning to play on it.

I unfortunately never really learned anything like "blues" or "classical" or any kind of theory, I just went for learning some chords, learning to play songs I liked, and improvising the rest.  I can't tell if it limited me or not...

[Sky]

Well, I'm learning blues because I listen to blues. As Buddy Guy said sunday, the only way to get good at the blues is shut your fucking mouth and listen. Actually, he formed it as a question:

Buddy: You folks know how you get good at blues guitar?
Me (the only person in the audience who answered, heh): Listen!
Buddy: That's right! Shut your fucking mouth and listen!
(He was ranting at some kid who yelled out SRV when he was talking about old blues masters like Son House)

Anyway. In the guitar thread I mentioned an interesting 'band' I was in shortly. We used to just sit in with each other at a local jam night that was mostly metal stuff. I was just getting back into playing and met a cool drummer/guitarist and I broached the subject of jam metal. It's impossible to do without good improv musicians. When he played guitar and I followed him on bass (I still have a few bass chops, but in the day I was a monster...though no Steve Harris), it was good. But when he jumped on drums and I played guitar, the bassist couldn't keep up (and eventually quit).

When we were jamming, just morphing riffs and keys on the fly, it was golden. If he hadn't lived an hour away we would've formed a band on the spot (he did invite me to play in his band, but no way I'm commuting like that). The crowd knew something special was happening, too. We would play 'songs' that would hit 15 minutes, just keep jamming, changing tempos, morphing things as they came to us. He'd play something cool on the drums that would inspire me to twist a riff a certain way, which would then lead him to another cool drum pattern, etc.

So it is possible, just not real easy, especially when you have more than one stringed instrument. Actually, that's how my band learned to play and was our main method of writing music. Get drunk and high and play for hours on end, just stretching things out and recording the entire thing. Go back later and pick out the stuff that worked. Good times.

[Selby]

So it is possible, just not real easy, especially when you have more than one stringed instrument.

The biggest problem I've found is just because it is possible doesn't mean anyone wants to bother to do it ;-)  I was never "good" enough to play with people like that and the ones I did play with were as I described before, more interested in duplicating the record than actually letting it fly: yelling stop in the middle of a song and re-starting just because of a botched bridge or transition piece?  Just roll with it!

I subscribe to the "play what sounds fun to me."  I've actually taken songs from Guitar Hero and said "Hey, that's cool.  Let's learn to play that on a real guitar" and done it that way too.  Not everything fits into genres with me anymore.  What can I say, in my old age I really mellowed out and appreciate all kinds of music (I say this as I sit here listening to the "Seven Churches" album, guess I haven't softened up that much yet).  Even though I don't play as religiously as I used to, I can still learn new songs relatively quickly and run through them every other day or so whenever I feel like it.  Not perfect, but just as much fun ;-)

[Calantus]

I'm gonna do something different and be on topic in the face of derail for once.

While co-hosting a radio show on KCAA, Roseanne Barr and her on-air guest, black lesbian activist Jasmyne Cannick, talked about gays. Roseanne talked a little more:

"Never once in my 54 years have I ever once heard a gay or lesbian person who's politically active say one thing about anything that was not about them. They don't care about minimum wage, they don't care about any other group other than their own self because you know, some people say being gay and lesbian is a totally narcissistic thing and sometimes I wonder. I've never heard any of them say anything except for "accept me 'cause I'm gay." It's just, it's screwed. It's no different than the evangelicals, it's the same mindset. They want you to accept Jesus and you guys want us to all believe it's ok to be gay. And a lot of us, a lot of them, I do, I don't give a damn who anybody has sex with, as long as they're not underage and an animal. I don't give a damn, it's none of my damn business. I'm just sick of all the divisiveness, it's not getting any of us anywhere."

I think she's right AND wrong on this. She's wrong because she made her statement too broad, and included people who happen to be politically motivated and gay. There's a whole lot of people who are politically motivated because they're gay and of course those people are going to be all about gay rights and little else. But then there's people who are politacally motivated because they're environmentalists or civil libertarians or pro gun control or w/e. Special interest groups are just... interested in their special interest. Who could have known? If she had kept the people like you aspect restricted to people who just come out of their hole to defend their one care and fuck everyone else, then I'd be nodding my head all over the place. The news should just say "I think we all know what the civil libertarian we could show you would say, so lets not bother" and not give those people air time.

[Damn Dirty Ape]

I've been staying on-topic the whole time by reading every post in Roseanne's whiny voice.

[Sky]

(I say this as I sit here listening to the "Seven Churches" album, guess I haven't softened up that much yet). 

Have I mentioned I saw Possessed during a blizzard back in...86? 85, maybe. 87? Who knows, that era is fuzzy. Anyway, there was our carload of headbangers and one other carload from our town (the venue was a 45 minute drive in good weather, took hours to get there). Placed was totally snowed in but they (and Death Angel, the opener) played the show. It was great because they were just having fun with it. The guys were out drinking with us before the show, taught us how to mosh because we were all headbangers back then. Then the Possessed guys moshed with us while the DA guys played and vice versa. At one point Possessed switched instruments and played the Munsters theme. Then Larry (who later went on to play in Primus) let me play his guitar. They were tripping because I had a silkscreened shirt based on the Seven Churches cover I had made in art class (I did stuff for my band, Venom, Slayer, Fate, all kinds of custom shirts...i wuz cule).

I've still got pictures, it was a splendid time.

Later when I lived in San Francisco I got to meet Jeff who was paralyzed, which kinda sucked.

[Lantyssa]

I don't give a damn, it's none of my damn business. I'm just sick of all the divisiveness, it's not getting any of us anywhere."

Since it's been brought up again... This attitude of hers is why we have to fight to get equal rights.  Because she feels it's none of her business, we have to fight every damned inch of the way.  If you want to stop hearing about it, tell the most vocal majority to shut-up because we're not about to roll over and say, "Oh well, we tried.  Guess we'll be happy being treated like crap."

But she obviously doesn't go to the same places I do.  We have people concerned about education, environmentalism, fiscal responsability, local governance, etc.  We write letters to the editor, chat about everything under the sun regarding politics.  But we're GLBT organizations.  The other stuff is not in our non-profit paperwork.  We have to be careful what we advocate for or we lose that status.  Our members also have a wide range of opinions.  They more or less agree on the gay agenda, but we won't come to a consensus on other issues because we were not formed to address them.  Our individual members will advocate on behalf of other causes though.

Grrrr.  It pisses me off to read that again.  She can still bite me.

[Selby]

Have I mentioned I saw Possessed during a blizzard back in...86? 85, maybe. 87?

Sure have (like... 3-4 years ago maybe...).  You posted two pictures at the time which I swiped, probably the only reason I remember the story (slept alot since then).  I think that's cool as hell.  The only bands I ever remotely got to hang out with were Christian bands back in high school... and that wasn't a whole heck of a lot of fun since most of them were playing Jars of Clay style music or being "really heavy" and playing things like Korn, but even worsely played.  I can't imagine seeing a band in a setting like that, much less a band that would be regarded as the co-fathers of death metal (who coined the term) and worshipped by fans to this day.

Later when I lived in San Francisco I got to meet Jeff who was paralyzed, which kinda sucked.

Yeah, that's a pretty sad way to go out when the band could have had more life in them (although Beyond The Gates wasn't as good as Seven Churches).

...tell the most vocal majority to shut-up because we're not about to roll over and say, "Oh well, we tried.  Guess we'll be happy being treated like crap."

The other half's got a cousin who lives in W. Hollywood and he goes on this rant all of the time (talks about how bad the old days were in the '70s too, fighting for his rights, etc).  He is very much an advocate of "in plain sight" activism.  Not getting in people's faces, but very much promoting the fact that "GLBT is who we are and we aren't going to go away because it is uncomfortable for you."

I used to just smile and think he was being overly dramatic (which he can be).  In the past I didn't to care one way or another, live and let live.  Then you get to experience someone's prejudices firsthand and it suddenly hits closer to home than it used to.  It was enough to make me re-think the entire stance on such an issue.  I'm not activisty or anything like that as I'm a recluse, but I sure won't dismiss someone for trying to better our world.  A little equality and understanding would go a long way.

[Sky]

My problem is that so-called christians and tolerant people can be as intolerant as they want about people who aren't like them and not see the hypocrisy.

No money in the War on Hypocrisy. Maybe we need a czar.

[Nebu]

My problem is that so-called christians and tolerant people can be as intolerant as they want about people who aren't like them and not see the hypocrisy.

Reminds me of a guy that I work with who keeps the key to his handgun safe on a WWJD keychain.  He couldn't understand why that struck me so funny.

[Sky]

Jesus would bust a motherfuckin' cap, yo.

[Lantyssa]

Gangsta style, too.

[Jeff Kelly]

But she obviously doesn't go to the same places I do.  We have people concerned about education, environmentalism, fiscal responsability, local governance, etc.  We write letters to the editor, chat about everything under the sun regarding politics.  But we're GLBT organizations.  The other stuff is not in our non-profit paperwork.  We have to be careful what we advocate for or we lose that status.  Our members also have a wide range of opinions.  They more or less agree on the gay agenda, but we won't come to a consensus on other issues because we were not formed to address them.  Our individual members will advocate on behalf of other causes though.

Preface: you are right but I can still understand where she is coming from.

Some people that vigorously fight for a given cause tend to become zealots. Those are the kind of people that can and will turn any event, discussion or get together into a platform for their own cause, even if it's not. The militant vegetarian at your birthday that tells everybody why meat is murder and why they are all animal fascists, the fundamental christian who argues about evolution, the liberal rights activist that turns every discussion in a political fight about the current administration etc.

That kind of people always try to turn any discussion or event into a platform for themselves and/or their cause, they can and will not talk about anything else. they are not interested in anything else and even worse they will always talk with the good feeling of knowing that they are right and everybody else is wrong. They are zealous and righteous and narcicisstic and they are annoying as hell not because they fight for a certain cause but how they fight for it.

Everybody knows at least one of that kind. They're the ones who hurt a cause more than they further it but more often than not are the most visible.

[Ironwood]

Reminds me of a guy that I work with who keeps the key to his handgun safe on a WWJD keychain.  He couldn't understand why that struck me so funny.

 

That's gotta be a small handgun.  Derringer ?

[Sky]

Jesus would rock and roll hootchie coo?