Web Design, what to charge?

[BigBlack]

Design is a mug's game, the real work is in taking the design and making it work.

Really I just hate design to death because either the client doesn't give a shit OR you're going to be buried in bullshit little changes because the vice editor or whatever decided the background is not quite the right shade blue and that image should be moved here oh and that word doesn't sound quite right can you change it to this? It gets very annoying. It's nice to make something that either works or doesn't work. It's so simple.

Don't hate on design - In the real world, all the 'bullshit little changes' you're talking about are what sell the product.  Dwarf Fortress is awesome no matter how it's presented, but that's okay for them because it's mom and pop in a basement working on it.  A professional client needs professional design at every level - web, print, motion, packaging, type, copy - because it hurts his bottom line if he doesn't have it.

It's all well and good to hate doing that, but it's as real work as anything the code-monkey does.

If anything, more real, because in many arenas a poorly done product with good presentation, marketing, etc. will outsell a well-done product that lacks those things.

Example:  Despite its awesome searching power, Google probably wouldn't be where it is today if they had gone with the same cluttered portal-style layout as Yahoo instead of their simple-and-sleek form factor.

[Salamok]

Example:  Despite its awesome searching advertising power, Google probably wouldn't be where it is today if they had gone with the same cluttered portal-style layout as Yahoo instead of their simple-and-sleek form factor.

fixed

[naum]

Example:  Despite its awesome searching power, Google probably wouldn't be where it is today if they had gone with the same cluttered portal-style layout as Yahoo instead of their simple-and-sleek form factor.

I would say the "non-designer" simplicity in the Google web look works a lot better than the designer inspired Yahoo. Even now, Yahoo has went crazy with translucent photo banners, YUI CSS grid, etc.≥ and the result is well, a pixel perfect display that just doesn't scale. Bumping the text size up (as is necessary on a high resolution monitor) totally throws off the "tab fittings" and the text blocks bleed into each other…

Look at all the wildly successful sites. Excluding the train wreck that Myspace is aesthetically, they're all clean and simple, uncluttered and very basic design even if that was by default, not by choice (as it was with Google)… …Wikipedia, FlickR, Reddit, first editions of Digg, Twitter, etc… are all bare bones much to the derision of the "designer eye"…

…and UI analysts like Jakob Nielsen (yeah, he's a bit full of himself) keep showing that simple (and thus, snappy) is so much better than fancy and splashy, even if web visitors are not directly aware of the sentiment…

[HaemishM]

Yes, but Yahoo sucks it over Google for more than the fact that they clutter the shit out of the screen. The fact that Google has more stuff in it to search from instead of having some editor monkey read over every web site before including it in the search goes a long way. Sure it means you get a lot of garbage, but it also means there's more choices.

Yahoo's probably is that they try to put too much information on one page, which makes good design almost impossible.

As for web design, any asshole can design a web site, that doesn't mean it'll be a GOOD web site or an effective one.

Spacer images are a necessary evil, and nothing the W3 has done has changed that in 10 years. Not CSS, nothing.

[Calantus]

Design is a mug's game, the real work is in taking the design and making it work.

Really I just hate design to death because either the client doesn't give a shit OR you're going to be buried in bullshit little changes because the vice editor or whatever decided the background is not quite the right shade blue and that image should be moved here oh and that word doesn't sound quite right can you change it to this? It gets very annoying. It's nice to make something that either works or doesn't work. It's so simple.

Don't hate on design - In the real world, all the 'bullshit little changes' you're talking about are what sell the product.  Dwarf Fortress is awesome no matter how it's presented, but that's okay for them because it's mom and pop in a basement working on it.  A professional client needs professional design at every level - web, print, motion, packaging, type, copy - because it hurts his bottom line if he doesn't have it.

It's all well and good to hate doing that, but it's as real work as anything the code-monkey does.

If anything, more real, because in many arenas a poorly done product with good presentation, marketing, etc. will outsell a well-done product that lacks those things.

Example:  Despite its awesome searching power, Google probably wouldn't be where it is today if they had gone with the same cluttered portal-style layout as Yahoo instead of their simple-and-sleek form factor.

I wasn't hating on design, that what the "Really I just" was for. I know why they ask you to do all those bullshit changes, it just doesn't mean they're any less bullshit to carry out for me. Like I said I like to have a clear goal and to make it happen. Design is always fluid and that annoys me.

[UD_Delt]

I would say the "non-designer" simplicity in the Google web look works a lot better than the designer inspired Yahoo. Even now, Yahoo has went crazy with translucent photo banners, YUI CSS grid, etc.≥ and the result is well, a pixel perfect display that just doesn't scale. Bumping the text size up (as is necessary on a high resolution monitor) totally throws off the "tab fittings" and the text blocks bleed into each other…

Look at all the wildly successful sites. Excluding the train wreck that Myspace is aesthetically, they're all clean and simple, uncluttered and very basic design even if that was by default, not by choice (as it was with Google)… …Wikipedia, FlickR, Reddit, first editions of Digg, Twitter, etc… are all bare bones much to the derision of the "designer eye"…

…and UI analysts like Jakob Nielsen (yeah, he's a bit full of himself) keep showing that simple (and thus, snappy) is so much better than fancy and splashy, even if web visitors are not directly aware of the sentiment…

And that is why people will pay a good bit of money for a professional designer that's actually heard of Nielsen. Compare the average site created by someone who knows just enough about HTML and Flash to someone who understands the concepts of usability, accessibility, and design and there's a huge difference. Sure the average person can pick up a book or a simple tool and create their own website but 1. they don't have the time 2. their time is worth more than the $35-$60/hour they are paying you and 3. their website is still going to look and function like ass.

[BigNastyCurve]

I'm gonna be completely straight up about this:

Having worked at GoDaddy over a year. Web designers are the most overpriced, underworked people in the goddamn country. They charge too much for too little and get away with fucking murder with what they charge and how they deal with the elderly, stupid women, and even stupider businessmen.

That's to say, if you have no problem with digitally raping and pillaging (I don't, it just makes my job... harder), then by all means, go forth.

I love all of these over priced web designers - because one of the products I sell to Realtors is websites. For about $30 a month. Once they realize a custom built site is going to cost them $4000 and they'll be at the mercy of the designer to get updates done, our templated sites look a whole lot sweeter at our pricepoint.

Before someone says it - no, templated sites do not automatically suck. As long as the site gives you the tools to pull out the stock stuff and put in your own content.

Do yours support the IDX listings?

[BigBlack]

Excluding the train wreck that Myspace is aesthetically

You and I completely agree on this.  That said, there's an argument that this is by design -- that MySpace explicitly targets a 'lower class' aesthetic because it's now the site for people who didn't go to college, and Facebook is for people who did. (Warning: the sort of insufferable liberalism that even other liberals find fucking annoying is ahead.  Under no circumstances should you click through to her article on why she doesn't capitalize her name in order to fight hegemony)

[stray]

Lol, "lower class". It's just popular. It's not that complicated. I'm sure people would flock to facebook or somewhere else if those places had everyone's friends, as many artists, etc.. But they don't -- and probably never will.

[schild]

Stray, I disagree. People with MySpace pages make me froth with anger. I fucking hate that place.

[stray]

Heh, well.... Why exactly? Most people are just there to correspond or share pictures with friends. Like an email alternative, I guess. I'm not sure how that could piss you off so much.

[Nerf]

Every once in a while a friend I havn't seen in a while cons me into going to their myspace page.

And every fucking time I HAVE TO LISTEN TO THE FIRST TEN FUCKING SECONDS OF SOME RETARDED FUCKING SONG BECAUSE YOU FEEL IT'S NESCESSARY TO PERFORM AUDITORY RAPE ON EVERY POOR SON OF A BITCH WHO CLICKS ON YOUR PAGE.  FUCK YOU CUNT!

Erm, sorry, but yea, music on webpages? No fucking thank you.

[stray]

Haha. It amazes me what that kind of stuff gets to you guys sometimes.

[edit] Not making fun of you! I am truly amazed.

[angry.bob]

Having worked at GoDaddy over a year

Do you still work there? I have 49 domains registered through them and would really like some sort of meaningful bulk discount.

[schild]

Having worked at GoDaddy over a year

Do you still work there? I have 49 domains registered through them and would really like some sort of meaningful bulk discount.

Heh. Do they all renew at the same time? Or at seperate times? Are they all .coms? Basically, PM me.

[Krakrok]

You and I completely agree on this.  That said, there's an argument that this is by design -- that MySpace explicitly targets a 'lower class' aesthetic because it's now the site for people who didn't go to college, and Facebook is for people who did.

I don't think it was by design originally. It just worked out that way. The fact that they have left it that way is probably by design though. When you're building for functionality on a fast growing live site HTML trumps graphics.

[Bunk]

I love all of these over priced web designers - because one of the products I sell to Realtors is websites. For about $30 a month. Once they realize a custom built site is going to cost them $4000 and they'll be at the mercy of the designer to get updates done, our templated sites look a whole lot sweeter at our pricepoint.

Before someone says it - no, templated sites do not automatically suck. As long as the site gives you the tools to pull out the stock stuff and put in your own content.

Do yours support the IDX listings?

Depends on the board. We have our own IDX solution, but can only offer it to Agents if their board allows it. If the board doesn't, we usually just frame in whatever solution the board does offer.

And to keep this on topic - the advantage of our IDX solution is that it sports a superior design and layout to most of our competitors :P

[Salamok]

I love all of these over priced web designers - because one of the products I sell to Realtors is websites. For about $30 a month. Once they realize a custom built site is going to cost them $4000 and they'll be at the mercy of the designer to get updates done, our templated sites look a whole lot sweeter at our pricepoint.

Before someone says it - no, templated sites do not automatically suck. As long as the site gives you the tools to pull out the stock stuff and put in your own content.

Do yours support the IDX listings?

Depends on the board. We have our own IDX solution, but can only offer it to Agents if their board allows it. If the board doesn't, we usually just frame in whatever solution the board does offer.

And to keep this on topic - the advantage of our IDX solution is that it sports a superior design and layout to most of our competitors :P

most IDX is easily framed.  The advantage of top producer lies in prospecting your database.  Probably one of the best thought out industry specific marketing/crm solutions ever made.  So to make a long story short if you HAVE a client database you need to be using top producer, if you don't HAVE a client database you need to find a new profession.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

I work as a web designer with a team and I can say that web developers, depending on what kind of sites they are working on, are not overpaid. I do mostly internal web design work for our intranet and find myself consistently learning new things. My skill set is, in my opinion, deserving of what I get paid, but I can see that people who are much better at my job should make more, while people who basically slap stuff together in DW and call it a day would make a considerable amount less.

Bottom line is that all web developers and designers are getting paid to do a job that is in demand and thatmost people can't do. When being able to spit out a good web site is a common ability for anyone, then the pay rate for web development and design will go down. But we all know that wont happen cause most people don't just pick up web coding and most people don't just pick up good web design, layout, typography and what not. You have to learn that, and it takes time and most people want to do other things.

On the Yahoo site thing... It is hard on the eyes, but it is a good site. It is a LOT of information, but there is some really impressive stuff going on there. That and the java script desktop email client they got going is pretty damn sexy. It is all pretty impressive from a technical stand point, and is all very user friendly and runs well.

It is not how I would personally like to design a site, but it does what it needs to do and does it well.