Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...?

[Calantus]

Why does the game industry have so many people leaving their old teams or teams leaving dev houses all the time to make a new dev house or join a competitor? Why is there so much turnover? It's getting hard to keep up with the who went where and did what when.

[stray]

Mobygames is usually a good source to find where people are working.

I don't think it's that much different than the film industry (whether it be actors, directors, producers, caterers, operators, grips, etc..). Actually, it's more stable than that.

[UnSub]

Why does the game industry have so many people leaving their old teams or teams leaving dev houses all the time to make a new dev house or join a competitor? Why is there so much turnover? It's getting hard to keep up with the who went where and did what when.

From an outsider's perspective, I think it's a case of you work on a few projects, that's 3 years of your life and you'd like to try something new. Perhaps it's being the big boss at your own development studio because you've got some ideas, perhap you move because someone offers you a pay rise, perhaps you move because your buddies are telling you that company X is a better place to work.

I also think it's a factor of teams finishing a project and then looking around for something else to do. If your last release was a big hit or critically acclaimed, I'm sure it's not hard to get doors opened to you.

Also: right now, MMOGs are the new messiah for venture capitalists. Got some ideas and a pitch for a MMOG? Go shop it around and get the money thrown at you.

[Venkman]

Look at the type of positions that are being turned over. When there's no new character models to build or new graphics engines to write, what are those specialists to do?

This is exactly the wrong conclusion that people use WoW’s numbers to make. WoW isn’t popular because the post-60 game is raid

I'm not talking about raiders. I'm talking about the concept of becoming nearly addicted to achievement in a world that has no intrinsic value. All of the activities that happened in EQ1 happen here. That tells me WoW succeeded in making the package more palpable for more people. That also tells me the underlying system works. For every player at 60, there's twice as many not. And 60 does not mean raiding, particularly if it took you two years just to get there.

People would probably stick with Eve if the combat was more visceral, and if the vast amount of things you interfaced with weren't just text and numbers on a virtual stock market ticker.

I don't think so. Eve as a concept is much more immersive, far more so than a lot of gamers want. The wrapping of that experience could look identical to WoW, but that wouldn't gloss over the alienating open-ended skills system, the ability to choose to do whatever you want without any real guidance, the loose-to-tough PvP rules, corps/alliances/ownable sectors, and everything else that makes Eve one of the most complex experiences to be had out there. Eve is just hard :)

[stray]

Maybe you're right, but I've yet to hear one person who didn't like that game for those reasons. Every single last one of them disliked it because it wasn't Wing Commander/XWvTF/pew pew pew!!!. Including myself.

[HaemishM]

Eve could have done with a lot more PewPew.

[Venkman]

Maybe you're right, but I've yet to hear one person who didn't like that game for those reasons. Every single last one of them disliked it because it wasn't Wing Commander/XWvTF/pew pew pew!!!. Including myself.

Those are UI elements. They could have lowered the barrier to be sure. But even for games more akin to those than Eve (Jumpgate, Vendetta Online), they're just not enjoying appreciable success.

Eve has a few main things that keep it niche. I contend chief among them is the immersion. Even if they got Linden Labs to handle their PR and started measuring their success to include everyone who's ever registered to download the client, they still wouldn't have broad appeal. The game is too deep for even the diku crowd, because it provides no clear direction and therefore no clear measure of success to reward time-in. And I say this as someone who loved the game, but realized they couldn't afford the investment it required.

Being generic-IP sci-fi doesn't help. But that only serves as another attractor anyway. By itself, IP is not a retainer.

[stray]

Maybe you're right, but I've yet to hear one person who didn't like that game for those reasons. Every single last one of them disliked it because it wasn't Wing Commander/XWvTF/pew pew pew!!!. Including myself.

Those are UI elements.

Hah. I really hope that was just a bad choice of words on your part. I mean, would you consider the differences between FPS's and RPG's to just be a matter of UI?

Because all space shooters were, in essense, FPS's. Or more like, vehicular precursors to them. The difference between WC and Eve is not UI, but a focus on pilots instead of ships.

The game is too deep for even the diku crowd, because it provides no clear direction and therefore no clear measure of success to reward time-in.

Yes, the diku crowd are sheep (Sheep in the "like being led" sense. Not necessarily the derogatory/sucker sense....But really, that too). That's still not a rejection of depth necessarily.

As for everyone else, I think you're forgetting how daunting even the most dumbed down diku game can be to newcomers at first. Recall your own foray. Many people still don't even understand when and how to put upgraded skills on a WoW hotkey bar. It's not automated, and there aren't any warnings when you're screwing yourself over. Many run around in crap gear without knowing better. Many don't even know that an Auction House exists. Many are both fascinated and timid at the idea of all the players running around. Many don't understand group dynamics. Etc., etc.. It's not like there's a lot of hand holding in WoW either.

[hal]

I can beat that one. I was working the prevoidwalker quest when a another warlock invited me to group. At pumpkin patch he was working on princess. Some one else pulled the mobs out of the house and I targeted the girl I needed for my quest. I got her but drew too much aggro and went down. I sent him a tell that I would be right back with voidwalker and he asked me how do you get a pet? A lvl 15 warlock and he has no pet. After we disposed of the princess I carried him to northshire pointed at trainer until he got quest then took him to the tent out back cleared the area and let him loot his book. Shaking my head all the while as "how could you be that clueless"?

[Strazos]

I thought there Was a lot of hand-holding. The quest people have a glowing sign over their head for crissakes.

[Morat20]

I thought there Was a lot of hand-holding. The quest people have a glowing sign over their head for crissakes.

There is. IIRC, to get your freakin' pet as a Warlock you -- and this is a shocker -- take the quest to go talk to the guy. The very first quest you can take is a chain that introduces you to quests, and sends you off to another guy. Sooner or later one of these guys tells you to go speak to the bloody pet trainer.

Then again, I've seen level 20 hunters who didn't have a ranged weapon  -- or didn't have a pet. It seems fairly obvious that the pet is there to keep the mob far enough away for you to shoot it.

I got told  to "learn to play" by telling a level 25 hunter he should ditch the newb gun he had and get both a pet, and a better ranged weapon.

[hal]

I am sure we can all amuse ourselves with stories about WOW players. But thats why I am not playing that game at the moment. I consider COX community to be much better but I have met more than 1 mastermind that pl ayes without pets. "I beg your pardon??" But hey. Its your game, you can play it how you like to.

[stray]

I don't blame those WoW players for being clueless though. It's the game. My only point to Darniaq is that a newb in WoW isn't that much different from a newb in Eve.

Sure, WoW has made better steps at handholding than others, but relatively speaking, it still falls short of what most people are used to. Putting question marks on people's heads is not the "height" of "dumbing-downness". Most people, coming from single player games, are used to NPC's telling them this or that (in audio and animation), how to use this weapon, how to drive this car, and generally just being guided along in a rich narrative.

[Venkman]

Hah. I really hope that was just a bad choice of words on your part. I mean, would you consider the differences between FPS's and RPG's to just be a matter of UI?

Actually, and you know me enough to know I ain't a troll, that is pretty much what I think. But first, to clarify "UI": it's not just the arrangement of  buttons on the screen. It's the point of view, every method of interaction between user and every element, and the overall feedback provided by the system. This is where FPS and RPG differ the most: the method by which information is input and output.

At the macro level though, FPSes have been getting compelling stories added to them and RPGs have been getting more action oriented. I understand why both genres were initially separated. But nowadays, there's more overlap than not, except in the players being attracted to each game. This is why I keep hoping something comes from Project Offset, or Tabula Rasa, or wish Planetside was done with some sort of player motivation in it. To me, there's no reason why an MMOFPS couldn't have compelling narrative in it, nor why it couldn't be fantasy-based, nor why an MMORPG couldn't get more twitchy. Look at City of Heroes.

Yes, the diku crowd are sheep (Sheep in the "like being led" sense. Not necessarily the derogatory/sucker sense....But really, that too). That's still not a rejection of depth necessarily.

No, they're not. Forget WoW for a sec. Eve has grown mostly because the whole genre has grown. Their percentage of accounts across the genre has decreased though. And they enjoyed their spike because of the SWG:NGE fiasco. That is not because Eve is still waiting for its time in the sun. It's because of a clear preference by players that has nothing to do with being sheep. They are not to be ignorant. They just want play a game with clearly defined goals, measures, and rewards. Eve does not have that. I don't mind it. My first MMO was UO after all, which experientially is comparable (7xGM class-based-thinking came later). But Class-based games have been proven, time and again, to be more palpable.

The reason I say "forget WoW" is because that does not define the success of diku/class-style games. It's just one part of the larger whole that includes even most "casual" MMOs and just about everything from the Far East.

[LK]

Besides, they could have 20 million and it still wouldn't change that their QA, CS, art, design, and pretty much every other aspect of their company except raw sub numbers is in the toilet compared to where it was a year ago.

You don't really know anything, do you?

Then again, with a name like "angry bob", I wouldn't expect positive, light commentary.

[LK]

Exactly. WoW showed the world there were more people out there interested in a hardcore experience than previously believed.

This is exactly the wrong conclusion that people use WoW’s numbers to make. WoW isn’t popular because the post-60 game is raid, raid, and more raiding and people are hardcore. WoW is popular because the 1-59 game is fun and as casual than you can get. Up until you hit 60, you can literally log in for 10 minutes and make progress. Then at 60 they swap out that game for another one that’s vastly inferior. If the game had used the same design theory for levels 1-59 as they did for 60, the game would never have broke a million subscribers. So why do people stay? 1)All other current MMO* are less casual than WoW’s post-60 game from the minute you roll a character. 2) All other MMO* are far less visually appealing. And it’s a damn wide gap. 3)They’ve already spent X amount of time building social connections and don’t want to leave them. 4) Leveling alts from 1-59 is still funner than any other MMO currently available. I’m on my 8th one myself, 7 of which are over 55. It’s still more fun than anything else available. 5) I can name about 20 more reasons that have nothing to do with being “hardcore” and wanting to “work” at a game but there’s no point really.

The simple answer is that WoW keeps their numbers because as casual unfriendly it is past 60, there’s way around it, and even then it’s a much better time than anything else available by a factor of 10. Their design direction after 60 is still total shit, their CS is still shit, and their QA is still shit. I’m not in BC beta, but I’m willing to bet the new newbie zones are nowhere near the quality of the original ones. Why? Because the people who did those have probably left too, and the new ones were done by whatever twats are designing stuff now. A raid dungeon so big and l33t that it needs a flight path halfway through? What a fucking waste of resources.

Anyway, I have lots more to write, but my wife wants to go to the German festival downtown. 60 degrees in Northern Oho in December…. And people say there’s no global warming too…

See I have a hard time with what you write.  You hit the nail on the head with your first paragraph, and I think "Ok, there's a guy who gets it." But then you start dissing the hell out of the internal sections of Blizzard that you have absolutely no knowledge of.  Really, I'd like what you're saying better if you kept it confined to in-game aspects and didn't say anything about stuff you clearly have no facts and only opinions on.

Yes, WoW is extremely popular because of the 1-59 experience.  Players are able to join the game and play a mostly solo MMO, only grouping when they want or have to (dungeons), but still keep progressing a character for months at a time.  It took me 17 days of playtime (Playtime, not 17 real days) to get my guy to 60.  That is way, way more than any other single game I have played.  If you have someone who only plays for a little bit each day, they would be kept busy for a very long time.  The experience in that section of the game is extremely refined, and no other MMO to date has duplicated it.  There are many other aspects of the design (from quests to combat to UI) that *work* in this game that make the experience all the more enjoyable.

[Venkman]

Yes, but the numbers have only continued to grow after launch. Granted a lot of that growth has come from new territories on their staggered-launch approach (which sorta self-feeds success with a continual generation of hype). But if you take into account their continued growth and the percentage of their playerbase at 60 (at those sites that track things with addons), you can't help but wonder what all those characters at 60 are doing.

They're not all casually raiding ZG/MC
They're not all hardcore raiding Naxx
They're not all faction farming.
They're not all in BG PUGs
They're not all in BG premades
They're not all playing alts
They're not all running a resource-gathering business
They're not all crafting

But they're doing one or more of those things, or you'd not see so many 60s running around.

WoW is no more successful for one reason than any other successful MMOG that came before or after them (since MMOGs are not just measured comparatively when assessing 'success'. You can have 125k subscribers and gain relevant profit if you've scale your business). It's the aggregate experience.

1-59 does not suck, so people don't mind doing it again. But that's not the only option for a casual player. There is life at 60 for the time-starved, if they're interested in finding it. And that's really the core success. They succeeded in making everything more approachable than their predecessors.

Now, that's not to say they made it all casual. They just lowered the barrier in enough places to keep veterans in, and have enough content and polish to keep those to the genre interested.

I have no idea what their attrition is like, but they seem to be outpacing it with new invites and retention.

And I agree: arbitrarily casting aspersions at a developer is disrepectful. And if it is based on fact, then someone's violating an NDA anyway :)

[Ironwood]

And I agree: arbitrarily casting aspersions at a developer is disrepectful. And if it is based on fact, then someone's violating an NDA anyway :)

It's Angry.Bob :  His spectrum of respect is different.  And that's a good thing.