F1 - US Grand Prix

[Signe]

 

[penfold]

Lets hope all those who spent considerable money getting there to watch it live get refunded.

This will have serious implications to the sport.

[Strazos]

 

I was watching the time trials last night for a bit.

Raikkonen kicked some ass on his run, gogo MercedesBenz-AMG.

But hey, at least Ferrari raced.

[Signe]

If Ferrari had agreed to the Chicane, everyone might have raced.  I think they were the only ones who refused to compromise.

[penfold]

FIA refused the chicane, and Jordan said it would race anyway so the others did too.

[Jeff Kelly]

If Ferrari had agreed to the Chicane, everyone might have raced.  I think they were the only ones who refused to compromise.

No, the FIA refused to accept any alterations to the course. They said that if a chicane was added the grand prix wouldn't count and no points would be awarded to any team or driver.

Actually the stubborness of the FIA has caused this disaster. Michelin recommended that all teams using their tyres should not start because of security concerns (there were already two high speed accidents because of tyre failures).  The FIA didn't accept any compromise regarding the situation. They argued that there is a reglement which all teams had aggreed upon as part of the concorde agreement and that no exceptions would be made. The rest is history.

This is a huge blow to the FIA. Teams have to agree upon a new concorde agreement to replace the old one in 2008 which will be even harder now. Fans are pissed, there will most probably be no US Grand Prix next year and the FIA will have to face litigation for this grand prix.

[Trippy]

If Ferrari had agreed to the Chicane, everyone might have raced.  I think they were the only ones who refused to compromise.

No, the FIA refused to accept any alterations to the course. They said that if a chicane was added the grand prix wouldn't count and no points would be awarded to any team or driver.

They also did not allow Michelin to bring in a new set of tires from France after the crashes on Friday.

[Righ]

If Ferrari had agreed to the Chicane, everyone might have raced.  I think they were the only ones who refused to compromise.

No, the FIA refused to accept any alterations to the course. They said that if a chicane was added the grand prix wouldn't count and no points would be awarded to any team or driver.

The FIA consulted with all the teams and took representation from Ferrari who claimed that because they had not tested for a circuit with a chicane, it would put them at a disadvantage. I'm not sure how they'd be at a disadvantage against other teams who also hadn't tested said chicane, but we'll accept that they would no longer have the advantage of being the only front running team that could safely run full thottle through turn 13. Nine teams (that's everybody except Ferrari, if you're not familiar with the pitiful state of F1) signed an agreement that unless a chicane were introduced ahead of turn 13, they would not take part in the race. Upon determination that there was not consensus, the FIA stated that were the course to be altered by the track owners, the race would fall outside FIA sanction and would not be considered a championship race. Presumably various legal arrangements then prevented Tony George from having a non-championship race of nine teams, and instead he reluctantly held a championship race of one team. Jordan subsequently broke with the agreement of "no chicane, no race" for in their words "the sake of the fans", and so Minardi sought release from the agreement, which the seven Michelin teams granted to them.

Under the Concorde agreement, Ferrari (and no other team) has veto on very many sporting regulations. This is exactly the sort of thing that will result from such an injustice in a sport. Ferrari very much are to blame for this situation, and F1 is an unworkable 'sport'. The sooner it collapses, the better. With luck, that may have happened today. I expect the GPWA to become much more powerful and relevant as a result of this debacle.

[Murgos]

Whats a tyre?

[schild]

What's a chicane, ese?

[Righ]

Whats a tyre?

It's the English spelling of "tire", moron. Oh, wait, you're being "humorous". LOL. ROFL. Keke.

[Righ]

What's a chicane, ese?

A bridge hand void of trumps, moron.

[Strazos]

What's a chicane, ese?

A slight S-curve, commonly put in fast areas of a track to make the track more challenging, and to slow drivers down.

[Jeff Kelly]

The FIA consulted with all the teams and took representation from Ferrari who claimed that because they had not tested for a circuit with a chicane, it would put them at a disadvantage.

That is not true. Ferrari refused the chicane because the FIA had already declared that no points would be awarded to any team or driver if said chicane would be built. Their standpoint being that Ferrari shouldn't have to suffer because of technical difficulties of the other teams.
 

Under the Concorde agreement, Ferrari (and no other team) has veto on very many sporting regulations. This is exactly the sort of thing that will result from such an injustice in a sport. Ferrari very much are to blame for this situation, and F1 is an unworkable 'sport'. The sooner it collapses, the better. With luck, that may have happened today. I expect the GPWA to become much more powerful and relevant as a result of this debacle.

You are overly optimistic. The teams backing the GPWA cannot even agree on a qualifying mode or some minor reglement changes, so how on earth can they manage an entire racing series? The FIA may be a bunch of rulelaywers but without them nobody would race because the teams would be constantly bickering among themselves. Lesser of two evils. The GPWA is basically just a threat to extort more money out of Bernie Ecclestone.

[RhyssaFireheart]

There are valid points on both sides of the arguments, but the biggest thing I wonder about is why Michelin was having so many problems at the track in the first place.  It's not like this was the first USGP to be run.  The track layout isn't new, and that banked turn wasn't some surprise thrown in for kicks.  Did Michelin do no testing at the track at all to discover this problem?

Besides, this whole fiasco is probably the most attention that F1 has gotten in America in ages, since it's so fucking boring otherwise.  Good lord, there is no passing after the first turn!  Six cars started on Sunday and they finished in the exact same order!  How incredibly boring is that?  Personally, I wouldn't want to pay that much money for a ticket to watch follow-the-leader.

I'll stick to watching the IRL if I want to see open-wheel racing.  That is far more exciting and challenging than F1, IMO.

[Signe]

I don't mind IRL, though I'm not nuts for all oval racing although I don't find it quite as fun as Champ Car.  I've been enjoying Champ Car a bit more since F1 has become the "Ferrari Challenge."  However, this year looks to be a bit more interesting since Ferrari has had some problems.  Living in Britain afforded us the luxury of being able to attend a variety of different types of racing events at a lot of different circuits... the US, not so much.  Much of it is oval racing, which is pretty 'meh' for me,  and everything is so scattered around this giant country that it's very difficult to consistantly attend events.  Motorsport was probably our primary hobby and the one I miss the most since moving to the US.

[eldaec]

If Ferrari had agreed to the Chicane, everyone might have raced.  I think they were the only ones who refused to compromise.

No, the FIA refused to accept any alterations to the course. They said that if a chicane was added the grand prix wouldn't count and no points would be awarded to any team or driver.

They also did not allow Michelin to bring in a new set of tires from France after the crashes on Friday.

I think you'll find they just refused to waive the penalty for switching tyres between qualifying and race, on the quite reasonable grounds that it would be unfair on the teams who had gone to the trouble of coming to the grand prix properly equipped. At least that's what my radio told me this morning while I was laughing uncontrollably.

Assuming that is true, the teams who pulled out should have changed tyres, taken the penalty, and then beat the crap out of Michelin. imo.

[Righ]

Assuming that is true, the teams who pulled out should have changed tyres, taken the penalty, and then beat the crap out of Michelin. imo.

That's true. However, the tyre that Michelin created as an alternate had the same problem. The tyre that Michelin created over the weekend in rapid response also had the same problem. It wasn't until Sunday morning that Michelin had the test data that would have allowed them to properly address the problem. That being the case, there were no tyres in existance that the seven Michelin runners could use. Having a disasterous crash as the result of tyre failure at turn 13 following instruction from the tyre manufacturer not to use the tyres would have had disasterous results for both the team involved and the sport in large from a legal standpoint. Regardless of how low you value the drivers' lives, it wasn't something that any team owner could reasonably do.

This was a well understood track in the Bridgestone camp, as Firestone and Goodyear had already had tests on the circuit which had been abandoned after multiple tyre failures. Firestone is owned by Bridgestone. Despite two tests (both IRL and Nascar) having been abandoned because of safety concerns, the data from those tests was not made available to Michelin. It could be argued that the circuit owners, the other tyre manufacturers and the official bodies of the sport all reasonably knew what was likely to happen, and played with the lives of drivers for the sake of "tyre competition". The circuit had recently been 'diamond ground', a process where the surface is artificially aged by roughing it using a diamond tipped saw. This was done after recent resurfacing produced a circuit that was unreasonably slick. The problem comes in the construction of the circuit surface and whether is it appropriate to grind it in this manner. If the pitch contains primarily andesite, such roughing is commonly known to be very likely to cut tyres. That's something else Michelin's lawyers should be looking into at present.

[Abagadro]

Not a fan of F1 but this was seriously embarassing.

[penfold]

The FIAs official statement.

Formula One is a sporting contest.  It must operate to clear rules.  These cannot be negotiated each time a competitor brings the wrong equipment to a race.

At Indianapolis we were told by Michelin that their tyres would be unsafe unless their cars were slowed in the main corner.  We understood and among other suggestions offered to help them by monitoring speeds and penalising any excess.  However, the Michelin teams refused to agree unless the Bridgestone runners were slowed by the same amount.  They suggested a chicane.

The Michelin teams seemed unable to understand that this would have been grossly unfair as well as contrary to the rules.  The Bridgestone teams had suitable tyres.  They did not need to slow down.  The Michelin teams’ lack of speed through turn 13 would have been a direct result of inferior equipment, as often happens in Formula One.  It must also be remembered that the FIA wrote to all of the teams and both tyre manufacturers on June 1, 2005, to emphasise that “tyres should be built to be reliable under all circumstances” (see correspondence attached).

A chicane would have forced all cars, including those with tyres optimised for high-speed, to run on a circuit whose characteristics had changed fundamentally – from ultra-high speed (because of turn 13) to very slow and twisting.  It would also have involved changing the circuit without following any of the modern safety procedures, possibly with implications for the cars and their brakes.  It is not difficult to imagine the reaction of an American court had there been an accident (whatever its cause) with the FIA having to admit it had failed to follow its own rules and safety procedures.

The reason for this debacle is clear.  Each team is allowed to bring two types of tyre: one an on-the-limit potential race winner, the other a back-up which, although slower, is absolutely reliable.  Apparently, none of the Michelin teams brought a back-up to Indianapolis. They subsequently announced they were flying in new tyres from France but then claimed that these too were unsafe.

What about the American fans?  What about Formula One fans world-wide?  Rather than boycott the race the Michelin teams should have agreed to run at reduced speed in turn 13.  The rules would have been kept, they would have earned Championship points and the fans would have had a race.  As it is, by refusing to run unless the FIA broke the rules and handicapped the Bridgestone runners, they have damaged themselves and the sport.

It should also be made clear that Formula One Management and Indianapolis Motor Speedway, as commercial entities, can have no role in the enforcement of the rules.

Additionally, they will be charging the Michelin teams with the following;

- failed to ensure that you had a supply of suitable tyres for the race and/or
- wrongfully refused to all allow your cars to start the race and/or
- wrongfully refused to allow your cars to race, subject to a speed restriction in one corner which was safe for such tyres as you had available and/or
- combined with other teams to make a demonstration damaging to the image of Formula One by pulling into the pits immediately before the start of the race.

'And that you failed to notify the stewards of your intention not to race in breach of article 131 of the FIA Formula One Sporting Regulations.'

Personally, whilst it looks as if Michelin are entirely to blame I believe every organisation concerned with running this billion dollar "sport" should be held accountable. The FIA, Teams, Michelin, Bridgestone and various ancillary organisations have all acted dreadfully, regardless of the letter of the law,  and this collective act of gross stupidity has has guaranteed themselves the loss of future earnings running into many millions.

Let the lawsuits begin.....

[Signe]

I agree.  The fact that they had three days to find a compromise and couldn't come to an agreement is disgraceful.  The only innocents in all this is the circuit (who lost all sorts of concession money and have people screaming for refunds right and left) and the fans.  F1 is plagued by it's own unique sort of arrogance which permeates every nook and cranny.  As fans, we tolerate the arrogance while the sport is entertaining... after all, it's the pinnacle of motorsport.  These days an F1 race doesn't have me riveted to my seat like it used to.  It's on the verge of boring... and, trust me, I have been a die hard fan of F1 for many, many years.  Arrogance and boring aren't a good mix.  The FIA and Bernie Ecclestone are already fire for various other decisions and this probably couldn't have happened at a worse time for anyone. I'd love to hear what Tony George has to say about all this.  I've looked and it seems he hasn't said anything yet.  I'm sure when he does... it'll be good.

 I'd like to thank Bernie for saving F1 way back when... very kind of you. I appreciate it.   So retire already.  And take Max Mosely with you.

[Righ]

I'd love to hear what Tony George has to say about all this.

Tony George has already said that the next thing you'll hear from him about this will be through his lawyers in a day or two.

[Margalis]

You know it's sad, I was going to post about how this stupid grandstanding always happens, but then the NBA reached a new labor agreement - which includes an incredibly bullshit age-limit. Basically everyone seems to be shooting themselves in the foot by arguing while the fans leave, but then when a compromise is reached by some sport that compromise is dreadful. (Don't get me started on the NBA age limit)

[penfold]

Very interesting account of that day from Paul Stoddart, boss of Minardi.

http://www.planet-f1.com/features/race_features/story_20035.shtml

Mosley and Todt have alot to answer for. The sooner the GPWC starts the better.

[Jeff Kelly]

Very interesting account of that day from Paul Stoddart, boss of Minardi.

http://www.planet-f1.com/features/race_features/story_20035.shtml

Mosley and Todt have alot to answer for. The sooner the GPWC starts the better.

Seems to be that Ferrari will once again be the poster boy to blame for everything that went wrong.

Once again the question: Why should Ferrari, one of the teams which didn't do anything wrong on that weekend, like bringing the wrong tires, agree to a measure which purely benefits those teams suffering from technical difficulties? F1 is a sport and is therefore subject to rules that all teams had previously agreed upon, that's what contracts like the concorde agreement are for. It is ridiculous to blame one team if all it did was to point out that these rules should be obeyed.

Well what about the fans you say? That is not the responsibility of the teams but of the governing body, if Mosley weren't such a prick a unbureaucratic solution would have been found. Even Ferrari would be hard pressed to disagree with something the FIA decided regarding some sort of compromise but I don't blame the teams if they want the rules to be obeyed at all times.

If the same technical glitch had affected the bridgestone teams then all the other teams would have been firmly against any compromise and would point out that there are rules and nobody would think less of them, but Ferrari is always so easyly to blame.

BTW: BMW has announced the acquisition of the sauber racing team. Starting in 2006 BMW will have its own formula one racing team and cooperation with williams F1 will end. So at least one major supporter of the GPWC has committed itself to F1 beyond 2008. So that was a huge blow to the GPWC.

[penfold]

Once again the question: Why should Ferrari, one of the teams which didn't do anything wrong on that weekend, like bringing the wrong tires, agree to a measure which purely benefits those teams suffering from technical difficulties? F1 is a sport and is therefore subject to rules that all teams had previously agreed upon, that's what contracts like the concorde agreement are for. It is ridiculous to blame one team if all it did was to point out that these rules should be obeyed.

My understanding that the Michelin teams offered to race with the chicane, start from positions 7 onwards, and race without outside of the championship, the end results being a top 6 made of Ferrari, Jordan and Mindardi them being the only ones racing for points, and the Michelin teams only going round the track to well.... ensure the GP wasnt a 6 car farce.

Mosley completely rejected this out of hand, as would have Todt. Even Bernie was in full agreement for any compromise that resulted in all cars racing.