Epic world drops

[El Gallo]

I used to to be one of the administrators of my EQ guild's DKP system.  I am a huge fan of DKP because it kills most loot-related drama and lets players decide how they want to equip their characters. 

The one thing that screws up many DKP systems is inflation. You just cannot have significant inflation in your DKP system or it will go to shit fast.  Points in = points out: live, learn, love.

[WayAbvPar]

This non-catass needs a definition of DKP plskthx.

[XMackenzie]

I was lurking over on the Goon Squad boards and there were a lot of supporters of a "zero-sum" DKP system.  Basically all points in the system add to Zero - items are assigned values and say someone gets an item for 100 points (ie debitted) then the other 39 people on the raid 2.56 points or something.  Pretty bad explanation but it sounded like something that would help reduce inflation concerns. 

The more I read about the DKP systems, 7-12 raiding requirements, etc the more I think I'm never gonna see the end game.  I'm not so much interested in the crazy loot, more just want to see the final stuff so I can say "ahh, that's nice".

[Paelos]

This non-catass needs a definition of DKP plskthx.

It boils down essentially to a system of "raid cash" with which you buy rolls on items, or items themselves. I'm not entirely sure of the concept beyond that. I do know that it stands for Dragon Kill Points, and that you accrue these points for each successful boss mob kill you acheive. These points go into an account for you. From there it gets unique to the system.

[WayAbvPar]

This non-catass needs a definition of DKP plskthx.

It boils down essentially to a system of "raid cash" with which you buy rolls on items, or items themselves. I'm not entirely sure of the concept beyond that. I do know that it stands for Dragon Kill Points, and that you accrue these points for each successful boss mob kill you acheive. These points go into an account for you. From there it gets unique to the system.

Who keeps the records? How are things recorded? Is it some sort of UI add-on, or is done manually?

[Paelos]

I would assume it was done manually by an administrator. I've never worked under the system because my guild was never big enough. However, I may have to suggest it as part of my current alliance.

[Merusk]

Who keeps the records? How are things recorded? Is it some sort of UI add-on, or is
done manually?

It's done manually, by the officer in charge of keeping the records.  The numbers are always made public and posted where anyone suspicious can track things on their own if they don't trust the officers to be honest.  The actual tracking varies from guild to guild, from webpages to excel files.  There was a whole faq somewhere about the system, but I can't remember it.

Speaking of DKP, did anyone else see the thread drama on the WoW boards yesterday about how DKP is 'unfair to everyone but the hardcore.'   I wanted to link it here, but the WoW forums are puking under the usual patch-day stress.   My thoughts are, yes, DKP is unfair to the individual if all you want to do is raid once a week and want to get loot, but it's better for the guild as a whole body. Suck it up and use your 3rd tier items that are still better than what the majority of the playerbase has equipped. ;)

[El Gallo]

In my experience, DKP is better for the occasional raider who wants to get some high-end loot.  The leading alternative to DPK is "merit" where the officers or loot committee gets together and decides who gets the loot.  They usually base that decision on what is best for the guild (or who cybers the best, but even if they make the best decisions for the guild they will get accused of giving it to who cybered the best), which usually means the more casual players get almost nothing.  DKP lets you save up your points if you want to get a really uber item, even if it would be better for the guild if the guys that play every day got it.

For example, if you raid half as much as the hardcore members of your guild, you will get one uber item for every 2 they get, on average.  That's a little more than I think you woud get under a "best for the guild" rule.

Of course, if your DKP system has inflation, more casual players and new recruits get brutally fucked up the ass.

[Merusk]

Of course, if your DKP system has inflation, more casual players and new recruits get brutally fucked up the ass.

Good lord, some people include inflation? That's fucked.

I meant to put 'unfair' in quotes. It was supposed to be sarcasm, so my mistake that I didn't.

 When someone says it's "Unfair" they usually mean that since they came in late, or raid less often they have to wait until all the folks with higher point totals have equipped themselves with the new shiny before they get a shot at said new shiny. They ignore the fact that they can bid, or automatically be granted, lower-tier loot for significantly less DKP.  It's STILL an order of magnitude better than the gear they had in the first place, it's just not the Uber shiny of the week.  "Fair" to these folks always seems to mean that even though they only show up once a week they should be granted the hottest, bestest loot first, because they're just "Teh Awesome!"

[El Gallo]

Well, a lot of DKP systems are (to oversimplify) "showing up for dragon X is worth 1 point; the uber sword which drops from that raid costs 30 points" overlooking the fact that 40 people usually show up for that raid, so you get 10 points of inflation into your system every time you do that raid.  You also get the occasional target where nothing anyone wants drops but points are still handed out.  The better systems I have seen either periodically adjust for inflation or do not give fixed values for raid attendence: everyone gets (DKP spent on loot during the raid) / (number of people at raid).  You can also do the same thing by continually adjusting the values of raids and costs of items, butthat is a pain in the ass and leads to people bitching when the uber sword they bought for 40 DKP only costs 20 the next day.  Some other people use auction systems (where DKP points for raids are fixed but the members bid on the items that drop) which have a natural tendency to account for both inflation and deflation, but that leads to collusion problems and lots of bitching, from what I have seen.

I totally agree with you on the personality of your typical anti-dkp zealot on the Blizzard forums, and did not mean to imply otherwise in my post. 

[Paelos]

Seriously at that point my gaming would literally be exactly like my job, posting crap into excel and making formulas to tie in figures correctly. And that is the reason the system sucks ass. Running it correctly is a bitch and a half, plus you have to have someone reallly dedicated to defeating inflation. Random luck is not a bad thing here. If you run a lot of raids, you get more shots at loot. If you dont run a lot of raids, you can still participate.

[MrHat]

Seriously at that point my gaming would literally be exactly like my job, posting crap into excel and making formulas to tie in figures correctly. And that is the reason the system sucks ass. Running it correctly is a bitch and a half, plus you have to have someone reallly dedicated to defeating inflation. Random luck is not a bad thing here. If you run a lot of raids, you get more shots at loot. If you dont run a lot of raids, you can still participate.

Wonder why no one has made a mod.  Just have everyone in yer guild install it.

[Rasix]

My guild's DKP system.   Not sure if you can read it or not.

Basically what it boils down to is this:  you get 1 DKP point for each hour of a raid you attend (some exceptions, boss might give extra points for a first time kill, we also get 10 points for doing the first leg of the Onyxia quest).  You use these points to bid on the items that drop.  Members are allowed to bid first.  Then it's open to initiates (still in trial period) and guests I believe (one guild likes to come with us, so we track points for them too).  Since class sets pre MC aren't restricted, the officers restrict those items to the intended class of that item first.   Very few items get bid up high.  Dal Rend swords used to until everyone got them. Hunter armor items usually go for a lot (we have a lot, fuck the GM doesn't have one yet), if a Felstriker ever drops, it'll probably go for 50+ points.  The GM or loot officer can also make judgement calls.  They might restrict bows/guns to hunter only first or a dagger with spell crit first to casters.  Most items are 2 point minimum.

In the end, if you do a place long enough, it evens out.  Those that attend the most get the first run of the drops and also get 'OMG WOW RARE' drops.  But if they're going to raids more than I am, shouldn't they get it?   Yah, it puts newcomers at a bit of a disadvantage (especially when you're doing a zone to learn it and no one's spending), but if they contribute on a consistent basis they tend to catch up rather quickly.

[Shockeye]

Uber Guilds suck. Period.

[Rasix]

Thx info!

[Sky]

Uber Guilds suck. Period.

Now there's an understatement.

[Dren]

I don't see any problems with DKP system other than the leader has a hell of a job and he can have it.

For those that think that the uber catasses will get everything, that's bunk.  The stuff that you earn DKP for are 99% bind on pickup.  People aren't getting these items to horde and sell on AH.  They HAVE to either use it or sell to a vendor.  If they sell it to a vendor they only get less than 10 gold for anything I've seen and that is not worth losing hard earned DKP at all.

The only thing I can see the casual players missing out on are the very new elite items that come out with each patch that might outshine the older elite loot.  In my experience so far, most of the catasses pass up even going for most of the loot because they already have better.  This works for this catass wannabe because I can attend a raid once in awhile if it works with my schedule (read: once every two weeks,) and still have a great chance at getting something decent.

That isn't mentioning any of the green or blue items (not part of our guilds DKP at all.)  There are hordes and hordes of those that drop and can be rolled for very easily.

[Sky]

Hmm. Dren brings up some good points (other than I still hate uberguild-type people and their overall mentality, I'm sure the reverse is true and I'm ok with that ;)). Maybe I should look up some folks I can attend some DKP type raids now and again.

It's just rare for me to sit and play WoW for that long, even if I have a bunch of stuff to do. To sit in the same dungeon for 4 hours straight for the chance I might get some loot? Where's my guitar?? ;)

[sidereal]

Sounds like it screams out for automation to me.  How many rare lewtz and elf boobies would people trade me to build a DKP-automation mod?

[Dren]

Hmm. Dren brings up some good points (other than I still hate uberguild-type people and their overall mentality, I'm sure the reverse is true and I'm ok with that ;)). Maybe I should look up some folks I can attend some DKP type raids now and again.

It's just rare for me to sit and play WoW for that long, even if I have a bunch of stuff to do. To sit in the same dungeon for 4 hours straight for the chance I might get some loot? Where's my guitar?? ;)

Actually I can't sit for that long either which is why my DKP is 2.  I get into the raids that I know won't last any longer than 2-3 hours.  Even then I have to make that up to my family by making the next few meals, clean it up, AND give the kids baths. Typically I play no longer than 1.5 hours each session.

My catassing has a price.  Fortunately, it has nothing to do with a litter box.

[Yegolev]

As for what I did with it, it's sitting in my bank.  I'm split on whether to hold onto it for whenever I want to roll a warrior or to sell it for a mount.

Recently turning to AGI gear for my warrior, I'd suggest hanging onto them.  But I'm no expert.

[Trippy]

Sounds like it screams out for automation to me.  How many rare lewtz and elf boobies would people trade me to build a DKP-automation mod?

AFAIK Afterlife was the first guild to implement such a system (back in their early EQ raiding days) and their system is automated and Web-enabled. You can view their old EQ setup at www.afterlifeguild.org though the site seems to be down at the moment. For the uber guilds I definitely think it's the most objective way to handle uber loot distribution -- time in == items out. For the more casual raiding guilds it's kind of a mixed bag.

[SurfD]

My guild also uses a DKP system, which works something along the lines of:

Each raid boss is worth X DKP (so, onyxia is worth 20, Lucifron is 5, Magmadar is 10, etc)
Each item is worth X DKP (so Head of Onyxia is worth 70 pts, Tier 1 epic set items are worth 100, etc)

DKP is used to determine your Roll Threshold on the /random command in WoW.

if you have 1-50 DKP, you roll 1-100 on a random.
if you have 51-100 DKP, you, you roll 1-150 on random
if you have 101+ DKP, you roll 1- 200 on random

and while it might seem like no one in the 51-100 range would ever win anything, we have had cases where a person with a max roll of 150 beat out people with a max of 200 for an item.

Not sure if we have any kind of system to prevent inflation or not.  There might be a cap on Max DKP or something.

[Murgos]

So are you spending your points on one chance to roll or do you keep rolling until you win something?

[SurfD]

So are you spending your points on one chance to roll or do you keep rolling until you win something?

Points are spent only when you win a roll on an item.

Depending on the value of the item in question, it can be pretty easy to end up in negative points fairly rapidly.  We raid Molten Core and Onyxia roughly once a week.  If you participate in both raids (say 6 bosses in MC and Onyxia) you might get a total of around 100 DKP.  A Tier 1 Epic Set Item drop or Onyxia's head is worth around 75 points.

Like I said, I am not sure if there is any kind of inflation stops (such as a Max DKP number) in place.  I guess I will have to ask.