GET YER E3 BULLSHIT RIGHT HERE

[Nightblade]

"Here is the Xbox One but beware, it has terrible DRM" - "Ooh, that's bad"

"But it comes with a free camera" - "That's good"

"It's a Kinect Camera that must be on and spies on your every move" - "That's Bad..."

"But you get your choice of a free game" - "That's good!"

"Microsoft has been implicated in the PRISM-NSA spying scandal"

"..."

"That's bad" - "Can I go now?"

[Paelos]

XBone, the sodium benzoate of toppings.

[Soulflame]

Microsoft really REALLY needs to shut the fuck up at this point. This isn't helping

I like the way they're playing this as a huge value-added selling point for their customers.

It is.  You're just mistaken in believing that you are the customer.

[schild]

I mean, I'm never upgrading from Office 2013, which I've really come to like. But it stands to reason that it is the last Microsoft product that will ever exist where you are the customer, rather than the product. With the Xbox One, the customer has become the product for sure.

[Paelos]

I mean, I'm never upgrading from Office 2013, which I've really come to like. But it stands to reason that it is the last Microsoft product that will ever exist where you are the customer, rather than the product. With the Xbox One, the customer has become the product for sure.

You don't see any backlash to this at all? I think it's impossible to stop some of it, but we're already removing advertising from our lives with DVR, adblockers, and various other software. If there's one thing most consumers seem united behind, it's the idea that unwanted commercials are terrible.

[KallDrexx]

You don't see any backlash to this at all? I think it's impossible to stop some of it, but we're already removing advertising from our lives with DVR, adblockers, and various other software. If there's one thing most consumers seem united behind, it's the idea that unwanted commercials are terrible.

All that proves is that people don't want to pay full price for the shit they consume and don't want to deal with the downsides either.

[Falconeer]

I mean, I'm never upgrading from Office 2013, which I've really come to like. But it stands to reason that it is the last Microsoft product that will ever exist where you are the customer, rather than the product. With the Xbox One, the customer has become the product for sure.

You don't see any backlash to this at all? I think it's impossible to stop some of it, but we're already removing advertising from our lives with DVR, adblockers, and various other software. If there's one thing most consumers seem united behind, it's the idea that unwanted commercials are terrible.

Unless it's the Superbowl apparently. Maybe Microsoft thinks that is a sign people are not against commercials, they are against bad commercials.

[Morat20]

You don't see any backlash to this at all? I think it's impossible to stop some of it, but we're already removing advertising from our lives with DVR, adblockers, and various other software. If there's one thing most consumers seem united behind, it's the idea that unwanted commercials are terrible.

All that proves is that people don't want to pay full price for the shit they consume and don't want to deal with the downsides either.

Yeah, but we ARE paying full price here for the Xbox. And then again for Gold access.

So maybe that's not enough, but doing "pay AND ads" pisses people off. It's one thing if they actually put out a "Cheaper but with ads" version (Amazon does that with the Kindle) and let you choose -- then you see the ads and think "Oh yeah, I paid less" and you don't get pissed off.

But when they charge you AND give you ads, customers aren't seeing the actual savings. They just see "I paid for this and now I'm having to shout "McDonalds" at the fucking TV for no goddamn reason except MS wants an extra zero on the bottom line, the pricks".

I'm not seeing a "free but shitty", "cheaper but with ads", "ad-free premium" setup. I'm seeing "Pay out the ass, and ads too!". (And the only comparison customers have is the MUCH cheaper and less PITA PS4).

[KallDrexx]

Yeah, but we ARE paying full price here for the Xbox. And then again for Gold access.

So maybe that's not enough, but doing "pay AND ads" pisses people off. It's one thing if they actually put out a "Cheaper but with ads" version (Amazon does that with the Kindle) and let you choose -- then you see the ads and think "Oh yeah, I paid less" and you don't get pissed off.

But when they charge you AND give you ads, customers aren't seeing the actual savings. They just see "I paid for this and now I'm having to shout "McDonalds" at the fucking TV for no goddamn reason except MS wants an extra zero on the bottom line, the pricks".

I'm not seeing a "free but shitty", "cheaper but with ads", "ad-free premium" setup. I'm seeing "Pay out the ass, and ads too!". (And the only comparison customers have is the MUCH cheaper and less PITA PS4).

Depends what you mean by full price.  Most likely what the consumers are paying for a full priced xbox does not fully recoup the costs for the actual console nor the service costs, just like the last generation they are hoping the profit comes from indirect means such as software sales and ad revenue.  If you wanted to pay the real full price for the console it would probably cost in the $800-900 range.  

It's the same as cable.  You can't pay for legal cable TV without advertisements even though you pay "full price" for the service.  Yes it's a PR nightmare to tell consumers this, but it is the truth.  If Microsoft was not selling the consoles at a loss then I would agree with you, but since they are......

[Morat20]

Depends what you mean by full price.  Most likely what the consumers are paying for a full priced xbox does not fully recoup the costs for the actual console nor the service costs, just like the last generation they are hoping the profit comes from indirect means such as software sales and ad revenue.  If you wanted to pay the real full price for the console it would probably cost in the $800-900 range.  

It's the same as cable.  You can't pay for legal cable TV without advertisements even though you pay "full price" for the service.  Yes it's a PR nightmare to tell consumers this, but it is the truth.  If Microsoft was not selling the consoles at a loss then I would agree with you, but since they are......

The problem here is that the facts on the ground are: The Xbox costs a lot more than the PS4 will. It also, for all practical intents and purposes, requires a paid subscription to access most services (like multiplayer) even if that's no longer required.

You can't BE the more expensive than your competitors, require paid subscriptions to access basic features your competition offers for free (Playstation network has some basic MP and stuff on their free level, right? I never did get a PS3...), and then add super-intrusive ads. (And by "super intrusive" I mean "more so than their competition", again.

It doesn't matter if Microsoft is losing 200 bucks a console and PS4 is making 60 bucks a console. People won't see that. They'll see "Why am I paying a LOT more" and see the ads as an addition insult -- a magnified one, because they're already paying a sizeable premium for an Xbox. (And to make it worse, the PS4 seems significantly more powerful to boot).

It's worse than lousy PR -- this is MS shooting their own dick off, again. I don't care how much of a loss per unit you're taking, you can't charge that much more than the market alternative, AND require more in terms of monthly payments, AND put in advertising that breaks the current norms for "pain in the ass".

Not if you actually want people to buy and use your product.

[Sir T]

Why are you assuming MS is losing money on the XBOX? 500 quid will get you a decent PC. Not superb but decent. You are not getting a monitor as you are using your TV so whats the super shiny thing that's making it so expensive to make? Hell you can get a good laptop for 500 dollahs.

[calapine]

Microsoft patent:

• Receive one or more user-specific reports of linear content viewing behaviors.
• User-specific reports collectively indicate a user viewing goal is reached?
• Grant award to user

*snicker* A TV-box that watches me and rewards for good behaviour? This reads like a cross between Orwell and Pavlov!  

*salviates* *gulps victory-gin*

[Paelos]

It could be as simple as, "Watch tonight's episode of Real Housewives and receive this mini-pet for your game."

Which honestly isn't the most horrible thing in the world. The idea, not the show. The Real Housewives is the most horrible thing in the world in terms of TV.

Having your game make you stand up and yell McDonalds at the TV so you can get past an interstitial is way beyond that.

The idea that MS loses money on each unit seems counter-intuitive. I don't necessarily believe that. That's the old printer model that's becoming horrible outdated and frankly proven to be a bad long-term plan.

[Kageru]

It still works okay if you have a proprietary market. Get as many sheep in as you can before the shearing begins.

[schpain]

It still works okay if you have a proprietary market. Get as many sheep in as you can before the shearing begins.

Trust the Aussie to make a sheep analogy.

[Merusk]

I mean, I'm never upgrading from Office 2013, which I've really come to like. But it stands to reason that it is the last Microsoft product that will ever exist where you are the customer, rather than the product. With the Xbox One, the customer has become the product for sure.

You don't see any backlash to this at all? I think it's impossible to stop some of it, but we're already removing advertising from our lives with DVR, adblockers, and various other software. If there's one thing most consumers seem united behind, it's the idea that unwanted commercials are terrible.

Of course there will be backlash but the question MS is asking is, "will there be enough that we won't make money or sell anything in the future?" I'm guessing they'll be successful enough that others will try some of these things in a similar fashion soon enough. For all the technology and research available to us, consumers are still pretty blind to anything beyond price.

It could be as simple as, "Watch tonight's episode of Real Housewives and receive this mini-pet for your game."

Which honestly isn't the most horrible thing in the world. The idea, not the show. The Real Housewives is the most horrible thing in the world in terms of TV.

I expect this is exactly what it will be used for.  The problem being, who in their console demographic watches live TV? It seems like an idea that would have worked better before DVRs and Time-Shifting (or internet watching) wasn't a regular occurrence for a very large chunk of that demographic.

[KallDrexx]

I expect this is exactly what it will be used for.  The problem being, who in their console demographic watches live TV? It seems like an idea that would have worked better before DVRs and Time-Shifting (or internet watching) wasn't a regular occurrence for a very large chunk of that demographic.

Obviously they think a lot, since a core part of the XBone functionality deals with cable tv pass-through.

Why are you assuming MS is losing money on the XBOX? 500 quid will get you a decent PC. Not superb but decent. You are not getting a monitor as you are using your TV so whats the super shiny thing that's making it so expensive to make? Hell you can get a good laptop for 500 dollahs.

Because a console costs more to produce than the sum of its parts...

[MrHat]

It could be as simple as, "Watch tonight's episode of Real Housewives and receive this mini-pet for your game."

Which honestly isn't the most horrible thing in the world. The idea, not the show. The Real Housewives is the most horrible thing in the world in terms of TV.

I expect this is exactly what it will be used for.  The problem being, who in their console demographic watches live TV?

"Stay tuned in for tonight's Pepsi commercial during the Seahawks game for your chance to unlock Russel Wilson Elite Edition in Madden 25!"

[luckton]

It could be as simple as, "Watch tonight's episode of Real Housewives and receive this mini-pet for your game."

Which honestly isn't the most horrible thing in the world. The idea, not the show. The Real Housewives is the most horrible thing in the world in terms of TV.

I expect this is exactly what it will be used for.  The problem being, who in their console demographic watches live TV?

"Stay tuned in for tonight's Pepsi commercial during the Seahawks game for your chance to unlock Russel Wilson Elite Edition in Madden 25!"

Part of me is excited that we've progressed technology to the point that we're able to do this.

Another part is horrified that we could have been doing something more productive.   

[sickrubik]

I expect this is exactly what it will be used for.  The problem being, who in their console demographic watches live TV? It seems like an idea that would have worked better before DVRs and Time-Shifting (or internet watching) wasn't a regular occurrence for a very large chunk of that demographic.

Because it's not for that demographic. It's for the wider audience. The console is being geared towards being The Box for the living room. There's a lot of chatter of them partnering with cable providers to offer a subsidized console with a contract and the console will just be your cable box. It really wouldn't take much for them to enable DVR functionality on it either in that case.

[Surlyboi]

What Sickrubik said.

Everyone thinks the next battleground is the living room and so they're all trying to get something out there before someone else drops a big, disruptive bomb on it.

[Falconeer]

It's funny how they think commercials are organic to the TV experience, meaning in order to fight in that battleground you HAVE to have commercials. What the fuck? I would pay Youtube 10$ a month to have a zero ads experience. And that's pretty much why I pay Netflix. The moment they put commercials on Netflix, I am cutting them off.

[Sir T]

I ruin my organic tv commercial experience by hitting the Mute button and picking up a book.

[HaemishM]

Part of the reason I love my DVR so much is the ability to skip the fucking commercials. And this is from someone who works at a goddamn ad agency.

However, I am willing to watch commercials if the value add is something worth trading off... i.e. my DVR misses a program, I'll watch ads to see it on On-Demand. Just so long as you don't bombard me with them to the point that it takes longer to watch it than it takes to watch it live. And if I'm streaming it on the web, fuck you if you try to stick more than 60 seconds of ads in a program. Colbert and the Daily Show have gotten real bad about this. The fact that I often watch those as background while I'm working just means I will be on another browser tab while you are sell-fucking my ears.

This, however, this has none of the value add for me. I have to pay for the privilege of playing multiplayer games or really getting anything worth a fuck out of the Bone AND I am forced to watch shitty ads while my console is also plastered with Doritos wallpaper and shitty DLC avatars are hawked to me with corporate logos at every interval.

FUCK. YOU. MICROSOFT.

[Ingmar]

The idea that MS loses money on each unit seems counter-intuitive. I don't necessarily believe that. That's the old printer model that's becoming horrible outdated and frankly proven to be a bad long-term plan.

It's also the model of every console in the previous generation that wasn't the Wii, IIRC.

[Merusk]

It's funny how they think commercials are organic to the TV experience, meaning in order to fight in that battleground you HAVE to have commercials. What the fuck? I would pay Youtube 10$ a month to have a zero ads experience. And that's pretty much why I pay Netflix. The moment they put commercials on Netflix, I am cutting them off.

They think it because commercials are NECESSARY for you to have a TV experience.  Time shifting, TiVO, Commercial-skipping are a big reason why studios mandate product placements now.  Not that they haven't always encouraged it but now it's "YOU WILL DO THIS" word-of-God stuff.  It's what pays for the stuff we watch so I endure them.

What Sickrubik said.

Everyone thinks the next battleground is the living room and so they're all trying to get something out there before someone else drops a big, disruptive bomb on it.

Point, though they shouldn't have spent the last 10 years branding it as a game box then.  Because that's what people think of when they hear "XBox" and the TV-only demo won't pick it up while the Gamer demo revolts against a product that sees them as undesired.  Whoops!

Plus if my Cable company decides "this is what you need for cable" they'll quickly discover how little I care to keep paying them that few-hundred-a-month bill.  I doubt I'm in a minority on that, either.

[sickrubik]

They think it because commercials are NECESSARY for you to have a TV experience.  Time shifting, TiVO, Commercial-skipping are a big reason why studios mandate product placements now.  Not that they haven't always encouraged it but now it's "YOU WILL DO THIS" word-of-God stuff.  It's what pays for the stuff we watch so I endure them.

That's really nothing new, however. Shows used to be straight-up sponsored, and the commercial would be basically an interstitial.

Point, though they shouldn't have spent the last 10 years branding it as a game box then.  Because that's what people think of when they hear "XBox" and the TV-only demo won't pick it up while the Gamer demo revolts against a product that sees them as undesired.  Whoops!

Plus if my Cable company decides "this is what you need for cable" they'll quickly discover how little I care to keep paying them that few-hundred-a-month bill.  I doubt I'm in a minority on that, either.

Microsoft wanted the original XBox to be a complete box, which is why the bought WebTV back in the day. Hell, most of the pushback from "gamers" the past generation was how much both manufactuers focused time on using the box as a delivery mechanism for content other than games. The XBox One and PS4 are jsut the next step in that.

Also, you don't have to get the console as the box. You'll still be able to buy just the box... or not.

[Merusk]

They think it because commercials are NECESSARY for you to have a TV experience.  Time shifting, TiVO, Commercial-skipping are a big reason why studios mandate product placements now.  Not that they haven't always encouraged it but now it's "YOU WILL DO THIS" word-of-God stuff.  It's what pays for the stuff we watch so I endure them.

That's really nothing new, however. Shows used to be straight-up sponsored, and the commercial would be basically an interstitial.

Yeah, I was taking objection to the notion that commercials were somehow new, more intrusive these days and not integral to the TV experience.  We've become very spoiled consumers.

[Paelos]

The idea that MS loses money on each unit seems counter-intuitive. I don't necessarily believe that. That's the old printer model that's becoming horrible outdated and frankly proven to be a bad long-term plan.

It's also the model of every console in the previous generation that wasn't the Wii, IIRC.

I've heard that before, but I've never seen the financial research into it. Nor do I know if with the move to digital content that would even apply.

[Rendakor]

It's funny how they think commercials are organic to the TV experience, meaning in order to fight in that battleground you HAVE to have commercials. What the fuck? I would pay Youtube 10$ a month to have a zero ads experience. And that's pretty much why I pay Netflix. The moment they put commercials on Netflix, I am cutting them off.

Get the AdBlock extension for Firefox, it gets rid of all Youtube ads.

[Falconeer]

Little derail. About AdBlock...

[Tebonas]

Thats actually Adblock Plus, Adblock is developed by different people and doesn't have the same deals in place as far as I know.

[sickrubik]

There's also a setting in Adblock Plus to disable that. Minor comfort of course.

[Rendakor]

AdBlock Plus is actually what I use, and I don't see Google ads either.

[apocrypha]

When you're installing Adblock Plus one of the setup options is "Allow some acceptable ads?". So unless you're just not reading the questions you're being asked during setup then there's no reason to see those ads if you don't want to.

Adblock Plus has had that option for years, this isn't a new story, and they've not tried to hide it. In fact I think it even says something about deals they've made with sponsors to create non-intrusive ads but that you can still turn them off if you want. Story is deliberately misleading in its tone IMO.