All MMOs violate PalTalk patent, PalTalk claims

[Torinak]

http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2009/09/16/westwoods_turbine_inc_named_in_patent_infringement_lawsuit/

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=25282

In 2002, PalTalk apparently purchased a few patents involving "controlling interactive applications over multiple computers" by sending messages. They claim that every MMO violates it, and Microsoft already settled (over multiplayer in Halo and/or XBox 360 chat). Emphasizing the legitimacy of their suit, PalTalk chose to file their suit against Blizzard, Turbine, Sony, etc., in east Texas.

[Tale]

It's like a stimulus package for lawyers.

[Kail]

In 2002, PalTalk apparently purchased a few patents involving "controlling interactive applications over multiple computers" by sending messages. They claim that every MMO violates it...

Can you do that?  Register a patent to technology which already exists?  That's awesome.  I'ma go patent "files capable of displaying images on a personal computational device box."


edit:  DAAAMN YOOOOOOU COMPUSERRRRRRRRVE!

[pxib]

I've often wondered about this because I know there are a lot of these patents floating around. Someone in the past mentioned that the reason you can't do anything (like chat, for example) during a loading screen is that it violates a defended patent belonging to one of the old gaming companies. Are there other things like this that ought to be general knowledge?

[Torinak]

I've often wondered about this because I know there are a lot of these patents floating around. Someone in the past mentioned that the reason you can't do anything (like chat, for example) during a loading screen is that it violates a defended patent belonging to one of the old gaming companies. Are there other things like this that ought to be general knowledge?

There may be, but due to the somewhat perverse patent law system, you're totally screwed ("willful infringement" = treble damages)  if it turns out you violated a patent you knew about. Many companies will insist that their employees do not perform patent searches out of fear that evidence of a search will trigger "willful infringement".

[Torinak]

In 2002, PalTalk apparently purchased a few patents involving "controlling interactive applications over multiple computers" by sending messages. They claim that every MMO violates it...

Can you do that?  Register a patent to technology which already exists?  That's awesome.  I'ma go patent "files capable of displaying images on a personal computational device box."


edit:  DAAAMN YOOOOOOU COMPUSERRRRRRRRVE!

In theory, in the US you cannot do that--a patent application is required to list prior art that may be relevant (and then show how the proposed patent is different), and the patent inspectors should also look for that during the application process. In practice, the search is fairly superficial (at best) and the US Patent and Trademark Office seems to prefer to grant patents and then let them get challenged in court instead of declining to grant them in the first place.

There's also the notion of "submarine patents", where you file a patent application and then keep trying to amend or tweak it as your competitors bring products to market, so your patent will cover them. Then, when your patent is finally granted, you use it to sue your competitors as you get to use the date when you first filed the application (not when it was actually granted!).

There's some hope of real patent reform in the US, of varying degrees. Business method ("X...but on the Internet!") and software patents ("I patented multiplication, you owe me!") really need to die, as they can turn routine software development into a dance through a minefield.

[UnSub]

I'll make the point that it can be unwise to take a patent case to court because there is always the chance the judge will find an issue that invalidates the patent, or the case will be ruled against you.

Paltalk has to be pretty certain of a positive result (and have balls of steel, or head of rock) to take on every MMO company at once.

[sanctuary]

There's some hope of real patent reform in the US, of varying degrees. Business method ("X...but on the Internet!") and software patents ("I patented multiplication, you owe me!") really need to die, as they can turn routine software development into a dance through a minefield.

Supreme court is hearing a patent case later this year that *cross fingers* will resolve some of these issues.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/09/software-patents-theres-no-baby-in-this-bathwater.ars

[eldaec]

In 2002, PalTalk apparently purchased a few patents involving "controlling interactive applications over multiple computers" by sending messages. They claim that every MMO violates it...

Can you do that?  Register a patent to technology which already exists?  That's awesome.  I'ma go patent "files capable of displaying images on a personal computational device box."

In practice you can patent anything you damn well please so long as you are careful to use plenty of technobabble. It is not until you try to sue someone that the validity of your claim even gets tested.


This is just a bunch of lawyers conning paypal management out of some cash.

[Gobbeldygook]

In 2002, PalTalk apparently purchased a few patents involving "controlling interactive applications over multiple computers" by sending messages. They claim that every MMO violates it...

Can you do that?  Register a patent to technology which already exists?  That's awesome.  I'ma go patent "files capable of displaying images on a personal computational device box."


edit:  DAAAMN YOOOOOOU COMPUSERRRRRRRRVE!

You're not understanding what they do.  The way these companies work is they buy the patents from the original inventor, or otherwise get permission to enforce his patent rights on his behalf.  They theoretically do good work by forcing big companies to pay an inventor what he's owed for a patent they're knowingly ripping off.  In practice, they're more like a protection racket.

"Be a real shame if we had to take you to court.  How about you give us half a million dollars and we'll make sure nothin' bad happens to you?"

Given the costs of a legal defense, it's almost always better to pay off the patent troll than to take them to court even if the patent is RIDICULOUS on its face.  Ideally, some small upstart company will take them to court and lose thereby proving the patent in court.  They go after bigger and bigger prey until they've shaken down everyone in a market sector and then it's on to the next patent.

[Azazel]

Damn, I'd love to watch Blizzard and Sony's lawyers crush these fuckers.

 

[amiable]

Damn, I'd love to watch Blizzard and Sony's lawyers crush these fuckers.

 

You may be dissapointed.  There is some precedent for this type of blackmail (remember when blackberry got an injunction to shut down a few years ago, it was over something like this, they refused to pay on a patent).  Patent trolling is still very lucrative.

[Venkman]

I think Azazel meant watching Blizzard take these guys on in court. They'd be the kind of company that would do it. Assuming of course they thought their position defensible.

It's not always about patent trolling either. Sometimes there really are legitimate claims. The "everyone else does it" rule is no protection in this kind of thing.

But I do laugh at how long some of these kind of things take to get started. Suing MMO companies now? What, were they waiting for the settlement size to have a few more zeroes than they could have gotten from, say, OSI or 989?

[Malakili]

F13 better watch out, we are all interacting over multiple computers here.

[UnSub]

Microsoft settled rather than wait for the court to make a decision in a case against PalTalk. And MS has the money to see these things through and the will to take a losing case all the way to the end. I'm not saying that Paltalk has a strong case, but exactly why MS folded against them might have some lawyers guessing about exactly how strong the claim really is.

And yes, PalTalk has bought the patent from a previous owner, so it isn't like they've just filed the patent.

[schild]

Microsoft folded because they only had to pay $200k. Wasn't worth the time or effort to deal with. This is the sort of thing the EFF would have a field day with. Those patents won't last out the year.

[Lantyssa]

Microsoft, unlike many game companies, also has less to worry about.  A company whose primary operations 'infringe' have far more reason to contest it.

Also keep in mind Blizzard has aggressively defended themselves against companies most of us wouldn't have wasted time in court on, either.

[Chimpy]

With the case already mentioned above by someone else pending before SCOTUS and the injunction that effectively bars anyone from selling anything that saves in XML (especially Microsoft and Word 2007), I forsee that court will finally come down more definitively as they had in the past on the side of pure software being un-patentable as you are effectively patenting algorithms.

I doubt this will make it to the higher courts before patent law is turned on it's head. Copyright is really where the preservation of software intellectual property should be anyway (and already is).

[CharlieMopps]

I'm all for demolishing the entire patent and copyright systems.   

[Hellinar]

Damn, I'd love to watch Blizzard and Sony's lawyers crush these fuckers.

 

They may not be able to affortd the legal fees.  Last week the Economist reported that now  patents are a hot investment item. One fund alone ploughed nearly $5 billion into buying them. With that kind of money stacked behind the trolls, Blizzards legal budget looks like chump change.

I think the patent laws will eventually bring innovation to a grinding halt.

[Lantyssa]

That $5 billion got them 27,000 patents.  Are they willing to spend that much defending each and everyone one though?

[Hellinar]

That $5 billion got them 27,000 patents.  Are they willing to spend that much defending each and everyone one though?

If they spend big on a few ot them, they may scare enough of their future victims. You don't need to break the legs of all your clients to run a successful  extortion racket.

Edit : This thread heading off in to politics  territory. I guess this means MMOGs are now significant enough to attract the big sharks

[Venkman]

Ok, so what's the plan here then? Go after a series of ever-larger small-timers who'll most likely roll over to build up the "legimitacy" of their claim until they become something actual lawyers would be concerned about?

[Torinak]

Ok, so what's the plan here then? Go after a series of ever-larger small-timers who'll most likely roll over to build up the "legimitacy" of their claim until they become something actual lawyers would be concerned about?

A fairly common patent troll shakedown is to get a few settlements before going after the bigger fish, and then using the successful settlements to fund the larger ones while increasing their ability to threaten.  "Hey, we just got $X from this patent from someone else, so you know we've got the money to pursue this against you!" The idea is that the target companies will settle for ever-larger amounts instead of spending that much (or much more!) to fight the suit or to try to get the patent overturned.

[Venkman]

Heh, I thought I was talking smack too.

I should go buy me some patents!

[Hellinar]

Ok, so what's the plan here then? Go after a series of ever-larger small-timers who'll most likely roll over to build up the "legimitacy" of their claim until they become something actual lawyers would be concerned about?

A fairly common patent troll shakedown is to get a few settlements before going after the bigger fish, and then using the successful settlements to fund the larger ones while increasing their ability to threaten.  "Hey, we just got $X from this patent from someone else, so you know we've got the money to pursue this against you!" The idea is that the target companies will settle for ever-larger amounts instead of spending that much (or much more!) to fight the suit or to try to get the patent overturned.

That used to be the plan. But given the bilions the big investors are pouring into this, lack of money to pursue the claim won't be the problem. I don't see how anything can stop them. The big fish like Sony and IBM won't seriously complain, because they are the ones being paid billions up front for their patents. Its the little guys, where the real innovation comes from, that will get crushed.

[Ingmar]

*head explodes at all the email administrators at these companies putting their email since 2002 into discovery*

[Torinak]

Ok, so what's the plan here then? Go after a series of ever-larger small-timers who'll most likely roll over to build up the "legimitacy" of their claim until they become something actual lawyers would be concerned about?

A fairly common patent troll shakedown is to get a few settlements before going after the bigger fish, and then using the successful settlements to fund the larger ones while increasing their ability to threaten.  "Hey, we just got $X from this patent from someone else, so you know we've got the money to pursue this against you!" The idea is that the target companies will settle for ever-larger amounts instead of spending that much (or much more!) to fight the suit or to try to get the patent overturned.

That used to be the plan. But given the bilions the big investors are pouring into this, lack of money to pursue the claim won't be the problem. I don't see how anything can stop them. The big fish like Sony and IBM won't seriously complain, because they are the ones being paid billions up front for their patents. Its the little guys, where the real innovation comes from, that will get crushed.

Yeah, venture capital pouring in to fundinvest in patent trolls is not a good thing.  I'm cautiously optimistic about Bilski...but if it goes the wrong way, that's pretty much it for the little guy/gal. Unless the little guy/gal is self-funded and becomes a patent troll, of course.

[Fabricated]

Ahahah, Paltalk is a shitty video conferencing/chat service that's only major community now consists of "jackers" and strippers. Opie and Anthony used to have Paltalk set up in their studios but SiriusXM put a stop to it (along with 90% of the fun) a while back.

[Quinton]

A fairly common patent troll shakedown is to get a few settlements before going after the bigger fish, and then using the successful settlements to fund the larger ones while increasing their ability to threaten.  "Hey, we just got $X from this patent from someone else, so you know we've got the money to pursue this against you!" The idea is that the target companies will settle for ever-larger amounts instead of spending that much (or much more!) to fight the suit or to try to get the patent overturned.

Also popular is to get one or two recognizable "big name" companies (Microsoft, etc) to settle with you (probably for some pittance, but hey it's a nondisclosed amount so it doesn't matter) and then use that "well, Microsoft settled..." as part of your intimidation tactic as you shake down more companies.

One risk is, due to how messed up patent law is here, that the court might actually uphold some absurd patent claim against you, which, as I understand it, could mean injunctions against shipping your product, some crazy damages amount, etc, in addition to the cost of fighting the claim in court.  Often settling is the lower risk option, which sucks because it just gives these assholes more ammo to go after other people with.

Goddamn, I hate software patents.   So very broken.

[Morat20]

Let's see -- I've heard patent claims that encompass anything HTML (it was a real stretch of a telecommunications patent that existed prior to the WWW), and there was the rather famous claim someone made about having a patent for "one-click shopping" (effectively, they claim to have patented storing things in cookies).

People patent lots of shit that isn't really patentable. Because there's so many people applying, there aren't enough clerks knowledgeable about the material, and the technobabble can be so strong that it's literally impossible to tell -- without expensive, rigourous analyzing that the patent office lacks the money, personnel or time for -- whether a patent is legitimate, a gobbledegook rewording of something old, or a ridiculously bald-face attempt to patent something people have been using since 1963.

Software patents should be discarded -- copyrights work MUCH better for software -- unfortunately, this issue is going to either be decided by the Supreme Court, or by Congress. Which is filled mostly with old people who think the internet is a series of tubes, and that computer software is somehow like a circuit board, instead of more like a book.

On the bright side, the FCC seems to have pulled their heads out of their asses on some internet issues.

[Yegolev]

It is rather like a series of tubes.

[MahrinSkel]

Actually, this has been happening to MMO's for a long time (I think EA was sued over UO in 1998, and since then virtually every MMO company that makes any real money has a few of them pending at any one time).  Yes, it's a protection racket, it's *very* hard to break a patent, and very expensive to even try, and the damages if you try and fail are pretty much apocalyptic.  The settlement offers are very carefully calculated to be just a bit lower than the legal costs of fighting it, and if you do choose to fight it they pull out *all* the stops, flat-out try to destroy your company as an example to the next chump who wants to be a hero.

What's going to make this particularly bad soon is that the really big companies (IBM, Microsoft, etc.) used to sit on thousands of patents as MAD deterrence to each other, and now they're selling the rights off to these VC-backed mega-trolls.  It's win-win for them, they get money up front, they get money from the settlements, and potential competitors get strangled at birth.

--Dave