Question for people in the know.

[Venkman]

Been years (literally) since my early Mage levels, but the instas start in the teens. All DDs of course. Talent-amp'd instas come later.

[Musashi]

My advice is shut the fuck up and play WoW.  If you're playing a fantasy Diku, play WoW.  Don't give me this crap about moving while casting or what the fuck ever, just play fucking WoW.  There is no real reason for Vanguard to exist in a world which has WoW.  I don't even like games of this type, but WoW is the best there is at what it does.

Vanguard indeed.  What is wrong with you?

EDIT:  This rant brought to you by my three months in WoW, my aborted attempt to play Horizons, and the resultant revelation that every other fantasy Diku is now just "WoW done shitty" even if it came first.

I sampled the WoW trial. I cant get into the art style. Also none of the classes i tried felt right to me at least. But hey i wont hate you for hating vanguard.

The art style I can at least understand... sorta, well, not really, but I'll give it to you anyway.  The classes didn't "feel right"?  What does that mean?  Not balanced?  Not hardly.  Unfun?  Uhh...  9 million people say otherwise.  How long did you play?  It sounds like you made your mind up before you started.  Either that or you're just a masochist.  Silk Road Online.  Go.

[Murgos]

The art style I can at least understand... sorta, well, not really, but I'll give it to you anyway.  The classes didn't "feel right"?  What does that mean?  Not balanced?  Not hardly.  Unfun?  Uhh...  9 million people say otherwise.  How long did you play?  It sounds like you made your mind up before you started.  Either that or you're just a masochist.  Silk Road Online.  Go.

~8 billion people say it's not really all that, just to keep the hyperbole in perspective.  Personally, I've tried WoW three or four times, I don't care for it either.

[Pennilenko]

The art style I can at least understand... sorta, well, not really, but I'll give it to you anyway.  The classes didn't "feel right"?  What does that mean?  Not balanced?  Not hardly.  Unfun?  Uhh...  9 million people say otherwise.  How long did you play?  It sounds like you made your mind up before you started.  Either that or you're just a masochist.  Silk Road Online.  Go.

~8 billion people say it's not really all that, just to keep the hyperbole in perspective.  Personally, I've tried WoW three or four times, I don't care for it either.

I was going to give an if everyone jumped off of a cliff sort of statement but you did it better for me.

Seriously. I mean that i didnt like the graphics, even a little. I am not saying they are bad. They were highly stylized and acceptable for the lore and direction they have.

When i say the classes didnt feel right, i wasnt digging on people who like them. They just didnt feel right to me. I wasnt hooked. I am sorry but im not verbose enough to ascribe a physical description to my feeling statement. If you want a good idea of the type of classes that feel right to me, take a look at the bloodmage class in Vanguard.

I respect WoW, I really do, and i think it has good players and bad players just like every other mmo out there just on a larger subscription scale. Its just not the game for me. I need a tad more realism in my virtual worlds. Yes i know that statement doesnt make much sense, however, its a true statement.

[Musashi]

K.  Vanguard realism > WoW.  Enjoy.

[schild]

Guys. More than 9 million people think Jesus is Magic. It doesn't make WoW fun.

[Musashi]

Hyperbole notwithstanding, 9 million people are pretty compelling that it's more fun than Vanguard.

[schild]

Hyperbole notwithstanding, 9 million people are pretty compelling that it's more fun than Vanguard.

No, it's really not. Madden has sold 10s of millions of copies. If you don't like football, it's not fun.

All 9 million people enjoying WoW shows is that there's 9 Million people willing to pay to have a second job.

[Nebu]

Millions of people eat at McDonalds. 

Millions of people own Brittney Spears cd's. 

Millions of people believe in Intelligent design. 

Millions of people watch Jerry Springer and professional wrestling.

I could go on like this for days. 

Tastes vary.  Get over yourself. 

[schild]

You just named a bunch of shit smart people hate.

Why do so many smart people like WoW? Maybe that's the important question.

[Musashi]

Oh, come on.  If you want to put so fine a point on it, okay.  How about slightly more compelling when compared with the 11 other people playing Vanguard?  I'm pretty sure you all got it the first time I said it.  I asked the guy if he really gave WoW a fair shot.  He says he did.  Fine.  Vanguard is awesome.  I stand corrected.

[schild]

Yea, but you're still looking at it from a "There's an MMOG worth playing" point of view. Which was your first error. They're all the fucking game with varying degrees of suck and second jobitude. I stopped picking between shitty and shittier a long time ago. Telling him to try WoW instead of Vanguard is missing the point. ANYONE who would play Vanguard willingly, particularly after Sigil fell apart, is obviously not fit to set foot in Azeroth.

[Nebu]

You just named a bunch of shit smart people hate.

I guess I could have listed a bunch of stuff that smart people like, but smart people don't tend to flock to things in droves.  You see, part of what makes smart people "smart" is their ability to create their own sense of what they like without relying on mass appeal as a trigger.  Many massively popular things don't lend themselves to people with discerning tastes.  Though the Beatles are an exception 

[WindupAtheist]

You all missed my point.  I'll use an analogy.

I'm telling Pennilenko to eat at McDonald's.  I'm not telling him this because I think McDonald's is delicious.  I'm telling him this because currently he's shitting in a bun, calling it a hamburger, and eating it.

[rk47]

 :-D

[Venkman]

Fuck, are we not finally past this purile shit, at least here? I expect a full page of this crap at MMORPG.com.

WoW is the most popular subscription-based PC-based fullscreen MMO in the world.
VG has some differences enough worth at least checking out.
Most rationale people don't give a fuck about what someone else likes.
Most irrationales have long since beaten out of this place.
Those that remain are worth hearing from.
Because there's more than one game in this and the adjacent genres.

[lesion]

PARLEY

[Nebu]

It's nice to see Darniaq swear.  It reminds me just how much we tend to rehash the same 5 topics over and over and over. 

[Pennilenko]

Oh, come on.  If you want to put so fine a point on it, okay.  How about slightly more compelling when compared with the 11 other people playing Vanguard?  I'm pretty sure you all got it the first time I said it.  I asked the guy if he really gave WoW a fair shot.  He says he did.  Fine.  Vanguard is awesome.  I stand corrected.

To correct you a little more, I never said Vanguard = Awesome. I mearly said Vanguard = Only choice that works for me right now.

Let them release a game that has mechanics and classes that hook me and Vanguard will be ran away from faster than a 3 dollar crack whore on discount rock night.

Vanguard does not have my undying loyalty. It just tailors to what i want.

Big shoulder pads and 3 pixel character models just dont get me hard, you dig?

[Nebu]

To correct you a little more, I never said Vanguard = Awesome. I mearly said Vanguard = Only choice that works for me right now.

I actually lasted longer in Vanguard than I did in WoW, so I understand where you're coming from.  Were I to offer a suggestion, I'd recommend EQ2 as "vanguard made better" substitute.

[Morat20]

The problem with discussing WoW in places like this -- and the reason Vanguard was viewed by some as the Second Coming of Jesus McQauid by some of the same people (at least prior to the beta) -- is that, by and large, this is a group of people who have been playing DIKU since it was just text and you could go kill Smurfs.

So there's a pretty large "Been there, done that, totally fucking sick of it now" vibe, with people wanting something really different.

Now, that leads in a variety of directions -- there are people who want a DIKU, without any of the DIKU. Needless to say, those schizo fucks are never going to be satisified. Others want a game that makes them feel like they did when they were 19 and fucking around on EQ for 15 hours a day and were like total gods because they were always and perpetually ahead, and no one could ever compete. Needless to say, when faced with another example of that they don't have 15 hours a day anymore, but blame the game for not delivering the feeling. They changed, game didn't.

And then there are the people who are simply tired of DIKU, and know it.

However, they ain't the "gamer market" and frankly people aiming at the masses -- most of whom never touched a DIKU game before WoW -- are best off not listening to them at the moment.

That aside -- I'm always curious as to what people do and don't like about a game, so I AM curious as to why he didn't like the classes -- if nothing else, it'll help with suggesting another game to him.

[Pennilenko]

To correct you a little more, I never said Vanguard = Awesome. I mearly said Vanguard = Only choice that works for me right now.

I actually lasted longer in Vanguard than I did in WoW, so I understand where you're coming from.  Were I to offer a suggestion, I'd recommend EQ2 as "vanguard made better" substitute.

I played EQ2 from beta untill Vanguard came out. I would never go back to EQ2. I have 70 guardian, 70 Sorcerer, 70 Warlock, 70 Templar, 70 Monk, 70 Swash. All raid equiped through KOS, and some of EOF.

In my opinion Vanguard is a way better game than eq2. Vanguard has the type of freedom and open ended mechanics that hooked me on eq1 back in 99.

I love kiting. I love levitating to impossible places. I like to stand on the top of a mountain and know that only and hand full of players have ever stood in that spot, if any.

I love flying a rented flying mount across continents. I love Firing up my Caravel and cruising the sea portals. I can keep going on about the positive things in vanguard.

I can also list 100 things that suck and need to be changed. I can list 50 reasons why i will leave as soon as something better comes along. I am really tired of Diku's but i cant get massively multiplayer thats roleplaying in any other format and it sucks.

P.S. I played Eve and loved it untill my corp stold 5 billion isk from me. I didnt play anymore after that. I kept those bastards in well equiped caps and destroyers for the newbs once i helped them train their skills right. I was saving the cash while working alliances to start the construction of a titan. Before the damn nerfs.

[Pennilenko]

The problem with discussing WoW in places like this -- and the reason Vanguard was viewed by some as the Second Coming of Jesus McQauid by some of the same people (at least prior to the beta) -- is that, by and large, this is a group of people who have been playing DIKU since it was just text and you could go kill Smurfs.

So there's a pretty large "Been there, done that, totally fucking sick of it now" vibe, with people wanting something really different.

Now, that leads in a variety of directions -- there are people who want a DIKU, without any of the DIKU. Needless to say, those schizo fucks are never going to be satisified. Others want a game that makes them feel like they did when they were 19 and fucking around on EQ for 15 hours a day and were like total gods because they were always and perpetually ahead, and no one could ever compete. Needless to say, when faced with another example of that they don't have 15 hours a day anymore, but blame the game for not delivering the feeling. They changed, game didn't.

And then there are the people who are simply tired of DIKU, and know it.

However, they ain't the "gamer market" and frankly people aiming at the masses -- most of whom never touched a DIKU game before WoW -- are best off not listening to them at the moment.

That aside -- I'm always curious as to what people do and don't like about a game, so I AM curious as to why he didn't like the classes -- if nothing else, it'll help with suggesting another game to him.

Class skills in wow are what turned me off. It was twice the repetitive busy work than even eq2 was asking from me. Most of the skills i had acquired didn't feel differentiated enough. It was like there was a need to cycle through skills as fast as possible to be effective. I really want my skill use choices to mean something and have consequences. I don't want to cycle through my hotbar relatively in the same order one million times each play session.

Modern MMOs should hook you with immersion(not necessarily talking about lore either) and not repetition. I play to lose myself not go into a repetitious ocd cycle.

[taolurker]

Class skills in wow are what turned me off. It was twice the repetative busy work than even eq2 was asking from me. Most of the skills i had aquired didnt feel differentiated enough. It was like there was a need to cycle through skills as fast as possible to be effective. I really want my skill use choices to mean something and have consequences. I dont want to cycle through my hotbar relatively in the same order one million times each play session.

Yet you favor a mechanic that eliminates a single button press to switch targets before tossing a heal? These two opinions are dimetrically opposed, you realize that.. right?

I didn't like this exact thing you describe in WoW, and player skill taking a back seat to "ease of use", dumbed down mechanics was why I originally spat venom onto this thread.

[Pennilenko]

Class skills in wow are what turned me off. It was twice the repetative busy work than even eq2 was asking from me. Most of the skills i had aquired didnt feel differentiated enough. It was like there was a need to cycle through skills as fast as possible to be effective. I really want my skill use choices to mean something and have consequences. I dont want to cycle through my hotbar relatively in the same order one million times each play session.

Yet you favor a mechanic that eliminates a single button press to switch targets before tossing a heal? These two opinions are dimetrically opposed, you realize that.. right?

I didn't like this exact thing you describe in WoW, and player skill taking a back seat to "ease of use", dumbed down mechanics was why I originally spat venom onto this thread.

I thought i cleared this thing up earlier in the thread. Your opinion is that that thats a bad thing though. I want to relax tell me seriously, no, justify to me why we need to suffer that stupid button press.

Whats your logic behind your idea that they are dimetrically opposed. (thanks for the new word)

Can you break it down for me so i can try to keep up?

[taolurker]

I thought i cleared this thing up earlier in the thread. Your opinion is that that thats a bad thing though. I want to relax tell me seriously, no, justify to me why we need to suffer that stupid button press.

Whats your logic behind your idea that they are dimetrically opposed. (thanks for the new word)

Can you break it down for me so i can try to keep up?

See the part of your argument against WoW was "twice the repetative busy work than even eq2" and removing a player skill mechanic (in a single button press) makes healing in a group into repetative busy work. You no longer need to actually be skilled and have proper timing. It's almost like asking the heal to cast itself when your group mate is dying.

Removing the button press to swap targets might actually improve reaction time, and possibly makes it easier for some to understand/play, but it also removes what I consider a vital player skill of "group management" and knowing how to complete your role fully.

Eliminating a button press with an offensive target still does not mean you will know your role in a Pick Up group, and maybe for you and your wife teaming it would be helpful, but it still means 90% of players won't be able to target the squishy caster who's dying in time because the offensive target was the tank.

If you need further clarification, I'll be happy to provide it.

[Pennilenko]

I thought i cleared this thing up earlier in the thread. Your opinion is that that thats a bad thing though. I want to relax tell me seriously, no, justify to me why we need to suffer that stupid button press.

Whats your logic behind your idea that they are diametrically opposed. (thanks for the new word)

Can you break it down for me so i can try to keep up?

See the part of your argument against WoW was "twice the repetitive busy work than even eq2" and removing a player skill mechanic (in a single button press) makes healing in a group into repetitive busy work. You no longer need to actually be skilled and have proper timing. It's almost like asking the heal to cast itself when your group mate is dying.

Removing the button press to swap targets might actually improve reaction time, and possibly makes it easier for some to understand/play, but it also removes what I consider a vital player skill of "group management" and knowing how to complete your role fully.

Eliminating a button press with an offensive target still does not mean you will know your role in a Pick Up group, and maybe for you and your wife teaming it would be helpful, but you still means 90% of players won't be able to target the squishy caster who's dying in time because the offensive target was the tank.

If you need further clarification, I'll be happy to provide it.

It only turns the healer into a heal bot if the game designers have designed no other usefull purpose into the class. I play a game currently where every healer i have chosen is a force unto themselves. Or are you a purist who thinks a healer should only heal? If the healer has other roles in the group, CC or Damage, or Tanking, Or aggro control, taking away that button press like you enjoy saying smooths out the transitions from group role switching.

Have you played vanguard? Despite popular opinion about that game. If you are a healer and all you are doing is healing only one person and not taking your fair chunk out of the target, you will be shunned. To me at least you formed your opinion based on how you perceive that opinion to play out in games like wow or eq2, it really doesn't feel like you are assessing my favorite game mechanic from the environment i use it in.

Also unless you are on a PVP server, or engaged in a duel you cannot select anything other than an NPC for your offensive target. Player characters and pets can only be defensive targets.

[taolurker]

It only turns the healer into a heal bot if the game designers have designed no other usefull purpose into the class. I play a game currently where every healer i have chosen if a force unto themselves. Or are you a purist who thinks a healer should only heal? If the healer has other roles in the group, CC or Damage, or Tanking, Or aggro control, taking away that button press like you enjoy saying smooths out the transitions from group role switching.

I understand fully about using other spells besides heals, and about roles in groups. I'm certainly not a purist who thinks healers should only heal, and my primary in EQ1 was a Shaman. My point still stands about how it's a sign of player skill in the ability to select targets and know which spell (damage, aggro, debuff, group buff, heal, etc) to use at which time. Having a primary offensive target, and as you termed it "smoothing out the transitions" also will mean that a caster I'm grouped with may not actually be able to change targets on the fly because the game mechanics made that player weaker by giving them a crutch.

Have you played vanguard? Despite popular opinion in that game. If you are a healer and all you are doing is healing only one person and not taking your fair chunk out of the target, you will be shunned. To me at least you formed your opinion based on how you perceive that opinion to play out in games like wow or eq2, it really doesn't feel like you are assessing my favorite game mechanic from the environment i use it in.

I was not able to get into Vanguard until the very last stage of beta, or "the stress test" and was unable to do anything other than crash or chug along at 2 Fps. I only ever played WoW and EQ2 on "free trials" and it was more than enough for me to see that neither really suited me. I can't say that a mechanic for any game is my "favorite" but (for me) I certainly wouldn't select one that will make most of the players in the game less able to deal with "the unexpected".

Please note, I am not condemning you or accusing you of being one of those players, but hopefully you will understand why this mechanic will make some players less skilled possibly leading directly to it impacting my (and others) experience.

[Pennilenko]

It only turns the healer into a heal bot if the game designers have designed no other usefull purpose into the class. I play a game currently where every healer i have chosen if a force unto themselves. Or are you a purist who thinks a healer should only heal? If the healer has other roles in the group, CC or Damage, or Tanking, Or aggro control, taking away that button press like you enjoy saying smooths out the transitions from group role switching.

I understand fully about using other spells besides heals, and about roles in groups. I'm certainly not a purist who thinks healers should only heal, and my primary in EQ1 was a Shaman. My point still stands about how it's a sign of player skill in the ability to select targets and know which spell (damage, aggro, debuff, group buff, heal, etc) to use at which time. Having a primary offensive target, and as you termed it "smoothing out the transitions" also will mean that a caster I'm grouped with may not actually be able to change targets on the fly because the game mechanics made that player weaker by giving them a crutch.

Have you played vanguard? Despite popular opinion in that game. If you are a healer and all you are doing is healing only one person and not taking your fair chunk out of the target, you will be shunned. To me at least you formed your opinion based on how you perceive that opinion to play out in games like wow or eq2, it really doesn't feel like you are assessing my favorite game mechanic from the environment i use it in.

I was not able to get into Vanguard until the very last stage of beta, or "the stress test" and was unable to do anything other than crash or chug along at 2 Fps. I only ever played WoW and EQ2 on "free trials" and it was more than enough for me to see that neither really suited me. I can't say that a mechanic for any game is my "favorite" but (for me) I certainly wouldn't select one that will make most of the players in the game less able to deal with "the unexpected".

Please note, I am not condemning you or accusing you of being one of those players, but hopefully you will understand why this mechanic will make some players less skilled possibly leading directly to it impacting my (and others) experience.

I can see your point. Ill give you that some players would end up being a liability because of that. However shouldn't those people get weeded out properly by then. You likely wouldn't play with people of that caliber for long. I just don't like that in your view i should get limited mechanics because some people are crap players.

[Murgos]

I just don't like that in your view i should get limited mechanics because some people are crap players.

Actually, I am pretty sure he said you will get crap players because of the limited mechanics.

[Ironwood]

Diametrically.

Just so you know.

I'm hoping, though, that this isn't one of those fuck stupid British/US things.

[Typhon]

nope, it's diametrically here in the US as well.  (it's pronounced skedule through, no shedule... just like chilluns go to skools, not shools! HA! suck it Scotty-man!)