Do ANY games have worthwhile crafting?

[tazelbain]

Most combat is boring and repetitive.  Games use dropped loot to spice it up.  But if crafter items are the best, dropped loot isn't much of a spice.   Not saying that's good or bad, just how it is.

[eldaec]

There is no good reason components can't be dropped instead of finished items.

Interdependancy cuts both ways, and it is necessary if you want both craftards and combatards to have a role in the same game.

[Morat20]

Most combat is boring and repetitive.  Games use dropped loot to spice it up.  But if crafter items are the best, dropped loot isn't much of a spice.   Not saying that's good or bad, just how it is.

I can state, with absolute certainty, that that isn't the crafters fault. If combat sucks and is boring, it sucks and is boring -- I'm just shocked that dropped loot is enough to cover it. Talk about low standards....

SWG more or less covered that -- you could get some good weapons as loot drops (some better than crafted, but not many). A lot of the best weapons and armor needed combat loot-drops, so you could get what you needed for some uber-gear and the crafter would happily make you a set in exchange for the rest of the pieces. (He might only need one of 6 components that dropped to make your gear).

Add in decorative drops and housing, and there was still plenty of spice.

But I think a much better option is to have non-boring combat in the first place, eh? I mean, isn't that better for the combat guys anyways?

[Falconeer]

The crafting grind in EQ2 has been "enhanced" with the chance of getting a very rare material as a loot while crafting.
You craft-grind, and sometimes your crafting is so exceptional that you get a rare material as loot.

Under-developed as usual, but again a good start.

[Rasix]

No one really cares about non-visible loot.  Sorry.

Enhancements are visible, they're just overly generic.  Given a 10 slot inventory, do you care more if it is filled with "Vorpal Greatswords" capable of increasing one's damage potential by 33%, or do you care more if it is filled with "Damage Enhancements" with an identical function?  Smoke and mirrors.

Be non-visible, I mean it doesn't show up on your avatar for others to see.  There's no alteration of your physical appearence and no one can really know what you have it.  Loot that's only a buff is about as interesting as a monster dropping physical respresentations of AA points or talent points. 

How bad would WoW's loot system be if it was all jewelry and trinkets?  In a similar vein, how bad is the reaction to EQ2's loot here due to how bad it looks? 

CoH has costume pieces that are unlocked due to accomplishments, correct? That's interesting loot.  That's a constant visible reminder of your accomplishment to yourself and others even if it has no value other than looks.  Bonus points if it gives your ice beam a little extra kick.

I'm not saying that it doesn't work for the system it's in. CoH's player customization comes at minute 1.  I'm not sure a character system that starts with that much customization can work with a MMO "pimp-my-toon" loot system.  I'm just saying it's not a partically good or interesting loot system and not one that people who value loot or crafting are going to care about. 

[tazelbain]

But I think a much better option is to have non-boring combat in the first place, eh? I mean, isn't that better for the combat guys anyways?

Even if the mechanics of combat were good and fun, the "why" of combat still is a problem.  Like if no phat lootz dropped raids in WoW, why would you do it it beyond once just to check it out.  In SWG as combat guy, once you have the top equipment and level 90, why are you fighting?  I guess you could say GCW. But why would you do that?  Phat lootz is apparently the only 'why' that there is any consensus on.

[Sky]

As the resident -tard nicknamer, I have no problem with craftards in a game. I don't like having my shit break down so they have 'relevance'. I don't like shopping.

Even if the mechanics of combat were good and fun, the "why" of combat still is a problem.

I disagree. Why do people fight ad nauseum through BF2? Because it's fun. I hate what Phat Lewtz eventually does to a (multiplayer) game.

[tazelbain]

Why do people fight ad nauseum through BF2? Because it's fun. I hate what Phat Lewtz eventually does to a (multiplayer) game.

That's probably a very low percentage of the people who have played BF2, many more people lost interest after they "learned" the game. (In the Raph sense of learn).  In addition the lack of a subscription fee, lowers expectations.  In MMOG land where you are trying to convert box-buyers into subscribers, the why needs to more than fun.  Okami is fun; Bully is fun; FFXII is fun; BF2 is fun, but why am I playing 15 a month for this game?  Collect virtual junk to make my toon tougher is the only why that has broad appeal.  I think that's why PS didn't take off, the lack of a compelling "why", even though most other aspects of the game are pretty good.

[Sky]

Then mmofps is doomed to fail because collecting junk to make your character stronger really fucks up pvp.

UO had great pvp with deep rpg elements and very little power differential gear. You might have a katana of vanq or two, but you put it on the line every time you used it, so most pvp I was involved in, we just wore gm crafter-made stuff.

I'm very biased against diku 'endgames', though.

[Morat20]

Then mmofps is doomed to fail because collecting junk to make your character stronger really fucks up pvp.

UO had great pvp with deep rpg elements and very little power differential gear. You might have a katana of vanq or two, but you put it on the line every time you used it, so most pvp I was involved in, we just wore gm crafter-made stuff.

I'm very biased against diku 'endgames', though.

Player Housing helps. SWG got that right -- showing off your toon is one thing, but if you have a house, you're showing off the epeen 24-7 (as long as you open it to the public).

"See all the kickass shit I've gotten. How long I've played. How mighty my epeen that shit THIS AWESOME is merely decoration to me? I spurn your crappy couches! My home only has couches that required loot drops from the toughest of bosses, plus immeasureably rare resources assembled by the finest crafter in the land and glued together with the blood of thousands of PKd newbies! THAT IS THE MEASURE OF MY EPEEN!"

The landscape was a mess, and they'd have been better off with instances "apartment blocls" or serious zoning restrictions and maybe some way to sign your house up for a museum tour or something (there were some really nicely done houses, guild halls, cantinas and the like -- but the idea is solid. It's much cooler to show off your Sword of Total Asskicking on your wall than to have it in the bank where no one notices it. (Assuming you're not using it).

[Sky]

I really don't understand the mmo mindset.

[Sparky]

One aspect of Eve crafting. If you are trying to make ISK (money) crafting you need tier 2 blueprints. Which are won at auction and your odds are small, indeed very small. So you can do all of the right things, make all the right decisions and never get anywhere. Or of course, you may hit the jackpot. It dose happen. But don't count on it as your odds are very small. Those blueprints are sold, but for large amounts of money and the market is sporadic.

Not quite.  You need a tier 2 blueprint to make silly money but there's a living to be made on the tier 1 market.  Margins are usually very slim, so you might (for example) only make a few million from building and selling a battleship.  But I know plenty of people who've made heaps of cash that way.  Of course if you're supplying more inhospitable regions you can often make very respectable margins indeed.  If anyone is really interested PM me your email address and I'll send you an Excel spreadsheet that'll help on your way to billions.

As with SWG there's plenty of cash to be made in every step of the crafting process.  The richest guy I know in Eve made his money speculating on high end minerals.

[UnSub]

No one really cares about non-visible loot.  Sorry.

Actually, you do, because it ties in directly to how effective your character is in combat. Knowing that a lvl 30 is fitted out in only DOs is a big warning sign in a PUG.

But yes, the net effect of having commonly available loot at nearly all levels of the game does reduce the importance of it.

Inventions is going to screw this system up, but how much and how far waits to be seen.

[Akkori]

But I think a much better option is to have non-boring combat in the first place, eh? I mean, isn't that better for the combat guys anyways?

Even if the mechanics of combat were good and fun, the "why" of combat still is a problem.  Like if no phat lootz dropped raids in WoW, why would you do it it beyond once just to check it out.  In SWG as combat guy, once you have the top equipment and level 90, why are you fighting?  I guess you could say GCW. But why would you do that?  Phat lootz is apparently the only 'why' that there is any consensus on.

SKy has it right. Games like BF2 and Quake are fun for a pretty good number of people. Now imagine the BF2 combat/driving engine and physics along with an SWG/ATitD crafting system, plus SWG's social/home system, and Eve's skill progression, and you got a winner... IMHO.

I never spent any serious PVP time in SWG. The most I did was group duel guildmates. Literally. It just wasn't interesting to me. And then I "discovered" BF2, and I play it nearly every day (2142 now). To me, that says something. I'd gladly pay $15 a month to have a persistent world in BF2 where I could own a home, and craft the weapons and ammo we use, plus the uniforms, accessories, other peoples homes, art & decorations, etc, etc... Toss in the Star Wars IP and the GCW, and holy crap, it might just be a winner!