Grist for the Anger Mill

[raydeen]

http://bigkid.com.au/2006/02/20/the-dangers-of-monogamey/#more-4483

Saw this linked off of Blues' today and figured I'd throw it out there for the dobermans to gnaw on.

[Merusk]

I think this topic would be better served in PC gaming. While it's WOW-related, it's a broader question than just about WoW.

I can't disagree.  When I was in college I was buying a new PC game a month. Ever since my first foray into EQ my buying has decreased significantly.  I think I buy maybe 3-4 PC games a YEAR now, if that.   We've all commented at one point or another that playing MMOs keep our wallets shut a little tighter.  It means I buy a LOT less crap than I used to, and I can cherrypick good games.

 Of course, I expect that it will also mean that quality single-player PC games will become scarcer over time than they already are.  Check out EB games or Best Buy, and you get the feeling that MMOs or Multiplayer Online games (a-la GW or BF2) are where the genre's heading.  Games where other players are the content aren't as easily consumed and discarded as single player games.  As a result, you're getting less 'content' and more 'rule systems'   Of course, that also means folks will buy fewer, so the industry will contract even further.

[MrHat]

I'm actually with schild on this and that the next generation of consoles (perhaps even this one in a couple years) will basically make my PC gaming obsolete.

Either way, I'm about 100% that my next gaming-influenced PC upgrade will be my last.

[Xanthippe]

I'm actually with schild on this and that the next generation of consoles (perhaps even this one in a couple years) will basically make my PC gaming obsolete.

Why do you assume that only consoles will get better for games but pcs won't?

I'm not up to speed on this, so please forgive me if this has obvious reply.

[Riggswolfe]

Consoles are killing PC Gaming. Not WOW.

I play WOW on my PC. I play games I can only buy on PC on my PC. Everything else I play on a console.

And I don't think I'm alone.

[cevik]

Consoles are killing PC Gaming. Not WOW.

The pathetic state of the game industry is killing PC Gaming, not consoles.

We are tired of buying shit in a box.  We have spoken.

[Murgos]

We are tired of buying shit in a box.  We have spoken.

It is, however, much more asthetically pleasing than buying shit in a sandwich bag.  So, the PC Gaming industry has actually improved somewhat in the last 35 years.

[raydeen]

I can agree that my buying habits declined after EQ latched on to my brain. For a while I was buying PS1 games and very little else for the computer. Now, it's pretty much just MMOG's and the occasional sequal in a series I like (Elder Scrolls, Serious Sam) and some emulation love when I'm feeling nostalgic. I don't see consoles as the saving grace yet as IMHO, consoles have ceased to be entertaining and innovative. The last console I bought was a Dreamcast and while I like it a lot, I don't love it. And I really haven't seen or played anything on the current gen that grabs me (OK, I may have to buy a PS2 when 24 comes out for it). There is no 'killer app' that makes me want to buy any of the big three right now. They all seem to be more of the same with flashier graphics and more buttons on the controller. I was thinking of getting a Gamecube so that I could play PSOffline with my wife and kid but realized that wouldn't ever happen. My personal future trend is probably going to be a DS when the Lite comes out. I've been forecasting since it was introduced that it would at some point start to approximate a PDA or portable web device with the wireless and touch screen built in. It's now on it's way with the Opera browser being ported to it and who knows what else in the pipe. I believe I saw that either a memory or HD expansion was in the works to convert it into a portable media system like the PSP.

[/tangent]

[cevik]

We are tired of buying shit in a box.  We have spoken.

It is, however, much more asthetically pleasing than buying shit in a sandwich bag.  So, the PC Gaming industry has actually improved somewhat in the last 35 years.

Nah, there has been nothing but consolidation.  Now there are only 4 game developers left in the world cranking out the lowest common denominator unoriginal spinoff crap and STILL not even remotely caring about quality.

It's the same reason the 20 somethings have completely left the television market.  It's the same reason the record industry is having terrible problems.

They will blame it on piracy, they will blame it on WoW, but they refuse to blame it on reality.. We are tired of the unoriginal bullshit they are trying pawn off on us.  We don't play games because they are games, we don't watch TV because it is TV, we don't listen to music because it is music.. we do these things to be entertained.  When it stops entertaining us we stop consuming it.

[Murgos]

Fine, don't blame me when they take your "Shit in a box" argument literally and go back to slipping a disk and a 3x5 card into a Ziploc baggy like some crack deal gone awry.

edit:  We could use a little green troll smiley.

[cevik]

Fine, don't blame me when they take your "Shit in a box" argument literally and go back to slipping a disk and a 3x5 card into a Ziploc baggy like some crack deal gone awry.

I miss the good old days.. ;)

[Calantus]

I've been a pretty die-hard PC gamer in the past. Only grudgingly buying consoles and their games to fill in time between good PC games and to pick up a couple gems. Now days though... the gaps between good PC games is getting bigger and bigger, and there's a lot of good talent and variety hitting the consoles. I want my baldur's gates and my eldar scrolls, but the RTS genre lost me about a year ago when it seemed to go stale, the 4x genre only had a brief hold, the TBS genre is dead to me now that HOMM4 sucked too hard for me to give starforced HOMM5 a try, and the FPS genre only a few months ago with the dearth of games like Dues Ex and Thief. Basically 4 out of the 5 genres I PC-game for are largely dead to me, and the third is found in MMOGs and 3-4 releases every 3-4 years. I haven't bought a PC game since... well, since I bought WoW half a year ago. I've bought a number of console games though.

The upcoming year will probably see me buy 2-3 PC games and then that's it for god knows how long. They will ALL be sequels, or releases from developers I love, I've lost the taste for trying anything else PC that isn't touted as the best thing since sliced bread here and that I imagine I would like.

There's just... nothing out there anymore it seems to me. :-(

[Modern Angel]

One of the things that I like about PC gaming is that the little guy can make a game and have it get somewhere. Matrix Games would never exist as a console developer. Mount and Blade would never show up on a PS2 pr Xbox or whatever.

I certainly play less PC games than I did a few years ago and I will freely admit to downloading full versions before purchase after being bitten so many times by shitware. I come from a turn based strategy background and those games just won't make it onto consoles; Dominions 3 and 900 dollar PS3s!

[Riggswolfe]

The last thing holding me to PC games is mods. Now that we have internet becoming more common in consoles that is starting to be less of a factor for me.

Pretty sad when you realize that it is user based content that is the biggest draw now.

That said I have to disagree that the gaming industry is in the same state as the television and music industries. I think there are some good, creative games out there. I just think that pressure is being exerted for those good games to go mostly to consoles these days.

Honestly, I'd still prefer PC RPGs but there are hardly any coming out these days. Even Bioware is making more console RPGs than PC RPGs. (Though thankfully they don't use the tired old Square setup of "Take a step, random battle, long summoning animation I can't skip, end battle, take another step, random battle, rinse repeat).

In fact, the last PC RPG I can remember is Gothic 2. Some people will say Vampire but that was more FPS with RPG elements than true RPG to my tastes.

[Riggswolfe]

. I come from a turn based strategy background and those games just won't make it onto consoles; Dominions 3 and 900 dollar PS3s!

Sometimes I curse Westwood for C&C. It totally destroyed turn based strategy. I miss those kinds of games so much and haven't heard of any good ones in a long time.

Anyone heard of any good ones? Particularly fantasy/sci-fi based? (I'm not as much into historical strategy).

To this day I'd love to see the old Games Workshop game Mighty Empires turned into a PC game.

[Modern Angel]

It depends on how much flash you want.

CivIV is incredibly moddable and there are a couple fantasy mods for it. Alpha Centauri part Deux is the rumored expansion pack whenever they get around to it.

Surf the Matrix Games website. Alot of their stuff is ugly, bargain basement stuff but most of it is GOOD. Dominions 2, Space Empires IV Gold (yeah it was on Shrapnel. Whatever.)... not pretty but good and deep. New Space Empires currently in development, as well. Gal Civ 2 coming soon... mmmmm... you know, I think staring at WoW too often has rotted my brain. I know there are some more recent/upcoming titles but it's just not clicking.

Regardless, my point stands: there are good "indy" games out there if you dig a little and there will NEVER be the same thing on consoles because of the way that end of the business is structured.

[Murgos]

Surf the Matrix Games website. Alot of their stuff is ugly, bargain basement stuff but most of it is GOOD.

I'm addicted to the Wobbly vs. PZB (& et. al) AAR for WitP.  I've been reading that thing for 8 or 9 months now and it looks like it will be going on for another year at least.

It is amazing how at the macro level that game delivers something pretty close to recreating a what-if? WWII at the strategic and grand tactical levels.  Way too intimidating for me to pick it up though.

[Threash]

. I come from a turn based strategy background and those games just won't make it onto consoles; Dominions 3 and 900 dollar PS3s!

Sometimes I curse Westwood for C&C. It totally destroyed turn based strategy. I miss those kinds of games so much and haven't heard of any good ones in a long time.

Anyone heard of any good ones? Particularly fantasy/sci-fi based? (I'm not as much into historical strategy).

To this day I'd love to see the old Games Workshop game Mighty Empires turned into a PC game.

http://www.wesnoth.org/

[Riggswolfe]

http://www.wesnoth.org/

Well you just cost me about half an hour of surfing that site. Looks interesting I may download it tonight...

[HaemishM]

Consoles are killing PC Gaming. Not WOW.

The pathetic state of the game industry is killing PC Gaming, not consoles.

We are tired of buying shit in a box.  We have spoken.

It isn't just about shit in a box, because consoles have just as much crap.

The business model of PC gaming is killing PC gaming. Consoles are helping mainly because they are more profitable than a similarly budgeted PC game, they are easier to operate and maintain than a gaming PC, they are cheaper than a gaming PC (or were), and they are more easily marketable.

MMOG's should be what some of the PC game devs look at as a "savior" business plan. Either go MMOG for the subscription revenue, or scrap the retail chain and sell direct to customers. If you aren't published by a big big publisher in the next 5 years, don't even bother trying to make a non-online PC game.

[Modern Angel]

I absolutely agree with that for the most part except the non-online PC game and big publishers part. I think that the only way for non-online games to survive in the PC market is to move more to the smaller dev houses, the Shrapnels and Paradoxes (Paradoces?) and whatnot. A hot seat or single player game is just going to be more accessible for most people on a console simply because of the plug and play aspect. That drives most PC gaming further into a niche market. Well, cool... act like it's a niche market, then. Fuck EA and the like because their Madden XX will ALWAYS do better on console. Take a chance, light up the eyes of the PC market that's still looking for the next Homeworld or Master of Magic.

[Trippy]

Lots of ideas flying around in this thread.

Regarding the original linked article: WoW may be hampering the sales of other video games (not just PC games) but that's true for any game that players can spend hundreds and hundreds of hours playing. Those kinds of games include MMOGs (obviously), other MP online games (I played QuakeWorld for 8 hours a day for a number of years), "sandbox" games like The Sims, and highly replayable games like Civilization.

Online distribution of games: That's fine as long as there is no fucking DRM system attached to it a la fucking Steam.

Regarding console gaming vs PC gaming: console games are still secondary to PC games for me and will continue to be so until:

* Mouse/keyboard support is standard for console games with complicated UIs *and* game UIs are designed around them rather than just using them to mimic a controller (a la FF XI on the PC). There is no fricking way I'm attempting to play a shooter on a console again until this happens (unless it's a light gun game).

* Built-in support for computer monitors standard (something the Dreamcast did right). I don't want to buy some expensive HDTV just to play console games at high resolution when I already have a much higher resolution monitor sitting on my desk.

And making a full circle: another big advantage (some) PC games have over console games is their extensibility. I'm still playing WarCraft III and StarCraft because of all the custom maps people make. Games like that can offer near limitless replayability which of course cuts down on the amount of other games you  might buy.

[Wasted]

Pretty much everything that makes the PC better for gaming (at least my gaming needs) are things that dont really help the gaming industry as it exists.  It doesnt help the big publishers that PC games are cheaper and discount more readily, that we have access to a huge range of free/cheap gaming options on the internet and that we have the best 'backwards compatible' retro gaming capabilities. 

The thing that has always stopped me buying consoles is not the initial cost (at least mostly) but the fact that the games are more expensive.  Having to start a game library for a new console from scratch greatly inflates the cost of a console for me, especially as not having a decent range of games means the console just sits there useless (I have a dvd player already).

The fact that I now play MMO's almost exclusively, and am happier to pay one sub cost a month rather than buying one game a month definately doesnt help PC gaming either.  This has been a trend that begun long before WoW though, people where sick of buying 5 hour long games for full price and heading for those with good mulitplayer for years now.  Subscription games at least bring in another revenue, its games like half life that lead to mods like counterstrike which a lot of people played exclusively for free for years that hurt sales of games especially single player ones

[Azazel]

There's always these guys for a kick of old-skool TBS
http://www.killerbeesoftware.com/

As for my PC games-buying, it's a combination of things.. the MMOG factor is certainly there, though EQ1 was what made me buy my first PC, when you're playing those games constantly you're not buying a whole lot else. When I took breaks from EQ1, I found I was buying at least 1 game per week, when I got back onto EQ1, that again dropped to only the occasional "must have" game. (an example would be Deus Ex, which still sits on my shelf having never been installed or played). Today, I'm riding the WoW train, and with the wonders of more disposable income and less free time I have about 10 of the lastest batch of new stuff from the last year or so sitting on the shelf unopened..

Consoles have definately shifted games away from the computers I always played them on. I was an amiga kid back in the day never had a console, and as was dictated by stupid magazines I hated the consoles accordingly, like I was told to. Until my new GF told me she wanted to get a Nintendo (SNES at the time) because she enjoyed mario with her brother when they were younger. I got hooked on them hardcore for a few years, more or less until EQ1 came along..

Now though, games' platforms are defined by genre for me.
MMOGs - PC.
Strategy games (mostly) - PC.
Fighting games - Consoles.
Racing Games - Consoles.
Platform/Prince of Persia type games - PC.
RPG's - mostly PC.
FPS - PC
3rd PS - PC
2d-shootems - Consoles
Sports - Consoles
Things like Sims and Civ - PC

Shit in a box applies equally across platforms though, and frankly I tend to prefer to play games sitting at my desk here. I know some people prefer the couch, and that's cool too, but I think that can make a big difference to preferred platform. This might be because when I play consoles on the big TV, the wife (remember that GF from earlier? Also, meet my sexuality in yo' face.) can't watch the TV and so will often disappear to do something else. When I play the PC, she can watch TV, and I can "watch" it over my shoulder and talk with her since the lounge room couch is about 6ft behind my right shoulder. Or she comes in here and uses her PC in here, so it's social in a way.

I still buy a lot more than I can (have time to) play across the platforms though. Unless you're someone like Schild who seems to have enough time to play and watch everything (as well as play EQ2) there's enough games from the current gen you can still cherry-pick and never have enough time to play them all, even avoiding the shit-in-a-box and a_EA_annual_fanchise_rehash_08 factor.

OTOH, the "ship-it-now-we'll-patch-it-later-to-make-it-playable" mentality that has hit the PC industry helps no-one in the end. I'm even looking at Civ4 there...

[cevik]

the wife (remember that GF from earlier? Also, meet my sexuality in yo' face.)

I may never recover.