Your experiences with organized Christian religion

[shiznitz]

As long as the drama is optional, I have no problem with conversions. However, if the drama is optional, then those that choose the drama should be even more suspect. The point is that a spiritual conversion (versus a religious one) should be about a change within yourself, not something pursued so your community oooo's and aaahhh's and pats you on the back. Ministers should be encouraging sincerity, not me-too-ism.

[Roac]

The point is that a spiritual conversion (versus a religious one) should be about a change within yourself, not something pursued so your community oooo's and aaahhh's and pats you on the back. Ministers should be encouraging sincerity, not me-too-ism.

I agree in principal.  However, if for as far as the minister or anyone else in the church community can see, an individual walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck... what are they going to do?  If drama is a normal occurance for spiritual conversions, then how do you know if it is sincere or just me-too-ism?  The matter gets even more complicated when you consider that modifications in behavior can lead to changes in your attitude, so is it always bad if someone plays out a role to start with? 

Children, for example, start life as moral heidonists, and utterly lack the ability to consider actions with an eye toward altruism.  Their parents, if good, are likely to not support this and reinforce notions of altruism and thoughtfullness by forcing them to say "please", "thank you", and "would you like one?".  Not that a church member is a child, but that a would-be member might take on a similar role with the intent of similar changes. 

How do you differentiate between people who are sincere, who are trying, or who are really just doing it just because?  Or worse, how do you pick all of them out from the people who are simply out for social gratification and don't care or are secretly hostile toward religion? 

[Pococurante]

And really, of course I wanted to come back.  It seemed like a great place.  But you know, I couldn't shut off the analytical part of my brain.  This story about the god-figure who defies death was never going to seem like anything except yet another myth to me, barring some tremendous worldview-altering supernatural encounter.  I just plain couldn't believe this fantastical story without some bloody good evidence, even if I wanted too, and just going through the motions was unthinkable.  I'd be betraying myself and lying to them.

So this girl and I just sort of drifted apart over time, and I started dating this other girl.

Interesting enough to have been written with sexlife as the metaphor for spirituality... ;)

This is how too many people are about "church".  They can't seem to make the logical next step to realizing it's only about being part of a community of people with similar goals and a desire to be decent folks.  It's a copout to say "church" is broken - "church" is people learning to get along with other people and creating a safe warm environment to raise children and make lifelong friends.  "Church" is no different than any other group of people - it's no guarantee every person there is perfection and that is hardly a reason to condemn the group's purpose.

The last thing "church" is about is dogma and it's as much a copout to say dogma keeps you from being part a great group of people as it is to be the one using dogma to create separation from other people.  It's the same stupid act actually.  One doesn't go to the church to find perfection and be perfected - one goes because we're all imperfect and yet we're all responsible for making the world a nicer place.

I hear a lot in this thread I hear all the time - much of it is at best juvenile rationalization.  I don't go to church because...
... my Mommy made me dress up
... God won't give me lollipops 24x7
... I insist on free will but God won't limit others' acts
... God lets mean people live and makes nice people die
... Every person has to be sweet to me before I'll help neighbors clean up our street
... God only likes pretentious people in his church
... of George Bush

Bah.

I attend a church because our neighborhood needs people committed to keeping the community strong.  I attend because I want my kids to have something to do several days a week and I don't want to fill their lives with a bunch of useless activities that just promote entitlement.  I attend church because I meet a lot of different kinds of people and learn things about myself all the time.

I do NOT attend church because I was raised to - I wasn't raised in any religious grounding but insyead completely in literate and scientific household.  I do NOT attend church so God will remember he loves me - I doubt he really has the bandwidth to get personally involved.  I do NOT attend church to find perfection and justify myself as the same.  I'm not there for any real "religious" reason except Fellowship - the one thing the real Jesus emphasized over any other reason to stay engaged.

That said I did have an amazing personal experience several years ago that within days of its event completely ripped away all the rationalizations I used to blind myself from fellowship.  There is no doubt in my mind we "see" but a very small bit of an ultimate reality.  I also think it serves no reasonable purpose to dwell overly much on ultimate reality.  Belief in a deity and in dogma are really completely separate topics than a reality much larger than what we can experience and measure with equipment.  Though I suspect science will have no trouble giving us more details within the next several generations.

Anyway you go to church because it's still the best way to find decent people trying to make a more decent world.  It's something that brings purpose as well as enjoyment to one's life.

[Fabricated]

My mother is a Christian (strangely enough the chruch we went to when I was little never named itself as "Baptist" or anything like that), and my father is something of an athiest.

Our minister was a great guy and one of the nicest people I've ever known, that was about the only reason I could stand going to chruch. I read the bible front to back in before 3rd grade, when we pretty much stopped going to chruch. It just never clicked with me, it all just seemed like stories. I don't even remember being all that critical of it, I just didn't care. I wanted to get home, out of those uncomfortable "chruch clothes", and get back to playing with my Commodore 64.

My mother still considers herself a Christian, but she has a really really hard time with other Christians condemning anyone else to hell (especially some Christians who have a problem with Jews, since I could've sworn the bible refers to them as God's "Chosen People") for their beliefs since she thinks that strong faith alone is good enough for god.

My dad is a Marine (honorably discharged for medical reasons, but there is no such thing as an ex-Marine), and a Vietnam vet. To be honest I don't know all that much about what he had to experience, but I can tell it wasn't terribly pleasant since he still had nightmares about it for a good part of my early life. There are things he still hasn't old my mother, and things he probably will never tell anyone. I guess seeing man's inhumanity towards man will kinda take the god right out of you.

[shiznitz]

Anyway you go to church because it's still the best way to find decent people trying to make a more decent world.  It's something that brings purpose as well as enjoyment to one's life.

If more churchgoers had that attitude, there would be more churchgoers. The problem has always been the dogma and how some embrace that as the "the point" of church. Children have a hard time seeing the community aspect you describe. For kids, school is the community.

[Pococurante]

If more churchgoers had that attitude, there would be more churchgoers. The problem has always been the dogma and how some embrace that as the "the point" of church. Children have a hard time seeing the community aspect you describe. For kids, school is the community.

I think you make very good points.  Basically I think that's the most fertile ground Paelos can plow for whatever purpose he started this thread.  The logical next step is continue to be a part of the community but be an active part of the more balanced crowd.  That it takes effort isn't objection enough.

[Nebu]

If more churchgoers had that attitude, there would be more churchgoers. The problem has always been the dogma and how some embrace that as the "the point" of church. Children have a hard time seeing the community aspect you describe. For kids, school is the community.

Actually, I disagree.  Children have a hard time seeing the community aspects you describe because they're parents actions don't demonstrate what they preach.  I can't tell you how many parents I meet with annually who encourage their children to be active community members while doing nothing for the community themselves.  A similar problem exists in many communities (including the hypocracy we see in church).  People are wonderful about talking about what should or needs to be done, but very few are willing to donate their time to the cause beyond a little window dressing.  Even while I was in medical school and raising a daughter I found time to work in a women's shelter, volunteer in a hospice, and donate my time to a local long-term care facility.  It's no surprise that my daughter is very interested in community service... and I can't recall ever telling her it was something that she should do.  Actions speak louder than words as they say.

The problems I see with most organized religions is that the majority of their followers are great about telling people how things should be.  They're just piss poor about demonstrating it with their actions.   Dropping $5 into a donations plate is not the same as going out into the community.  People prefer to buy their way out of community service.  The result: less real community.  The respect that I retain for the churchgoing community is largely due to the fact that a higher percentage of churchgoers actively volunteer than the general public. That still leaves a high percentage of hypocrates though.

For the record, I am not a Christian nor do I attend any religious services.  My ethics and morals are not connected to a drive to serve an organized religion. 

[Paelos]

The main aspect I'm focusing on in my article on building a better church is to almost eliminate the talk in favor of action. The church I want isn't a place to sit on Sunday and listen. It's not even a building. It's a group of people getting together on a Tuesday night to volunteer in the cancer ward. It's a couple of guys coordinating a food drive for the needy. And on Sundays, its that same group getting together to worship and plan next week's activities.

[shiznitz]

The main aspect I'm focusing on in my article on building a better church is to almost eliminate the talk in favor of action. The church I want isn't a place to sit on Sunday and listen. It's not even a building. It's a group of people getting together on a Tuesday night to volunteer in the cancer ward. It's a couple of guys coordinating a food drive for the needy. And on Sundays, its that same group getting together to worship and plan next week's activities.

Bingo.

[Nebu]

The main aspect I'm focusing on in my article on building a better church is to almost eliminate the talk in favor of action. The church I want isn't a place to sit on Sunday and listen. It's not even a building. It's a group of people getting together on a Tuesday night to volunteer in the cancer ward. It's a couple of guys coordinating a food drive for the needy. And on Sundays, its that same group getting together to worship and plan next week's activities.

If you manage this, it could be a quantum leap forward for organized religion in America.  I really like the way you describe "a church".  My grandfather was a Lutheran minister in the midwest during the depression and gave most of his services in his native Czech.  The man's life was devoted to the service of mankind and he was remembered by his congregation 50+ years later for it.  If today's church could find those roots , I think it would do a great bit of good for the image of organized religion.  I wish you all the best.  It seems a worthy effort.

[stray]

Well, that's what the original church "used" to be. Just fellow believers meeting inside their homes, having dinner together, and plotting to change the Roman empire.

I hear that China is like this now (though they do have an "official" church, most people meet in secret).

[Samwise]

Separation of church and state is more to the benefit of church than state, imo.

[Bstaz]

The question is, is the church fixable?

Sure, just prove god exists otherwise it is just like any other club.

[voodoolily]

Separation of church and state is more to the benefit of church than state, imo.

Except for the whole tax-break thing?

[Samwise]

Separation of church and state is more to the benefit of church than state, imo.

Except for the whole tax-break thing?

I'm not sure what you just asked.

[voodoolily]

What I said was, except for the fact that churches are tax-exempt, I'm sure they'd benefit plenty from an actualized, realized separation of church and state. But since churches are tax exempt, I'd wager that they benefit from "church and state" not being separate.

Berr......does that make sense? Churches benefit more (financially) from the separation being a crock of shit in reality.

[Samwise]

I'm of the opinion that any church which isn't already a non-profit organization would benefit greatly from becoming one, and my understanding is that non-profit organizations enjoy tax-exempt status regardless of religious affiliation.

[Paelos]

I'm of the opinion that any church which isn't already a non-profit organization would benefit greatly from becoming one, and my understanding is that non-profit organizations enjoy tax-exempt status regardless of religious affiliation.

Speaking as the ex-accountant, you get a cookie.