Your experiences with organized Christian religion

[Strazos]

My father came from a Spanish/Filipino Catholic background. My mother came from a Catholic family (I guess) and also went through some Catholic schooling before HS.

As a young child, before my parents divorced and moved back to the east coast, there was a time I went to Sunday school every week. I don't remember having any particular feelings about it, but I do remember going for donuts afterwards.

When my parents seperated, my mother, for a time, tried bringing me to the Southern Baptist church that our good neighbors went to. I remember her liking it, but as I found it excruiatingly boring, I only had to go once or twice.

When I moved back to the east, my mother stopped attending church. I would have to go every now and then with my father when I visited him, which stopped after he remarried. It was your run-of-the-mill Catholic church, and very boring to me. I specificly remember one part of a sermon where the preacher was talking about Fort Knox. I thought the whole thing was stupid.

As I was growing up, most of my close friends went to church every week (most Catholic, with 1 Lutheran). It was quite a hinderance to all of us, actually; all-night gaming sleepover deals were troublesome, because they all had to go to church on Sunday morning.

Anyway, as I got older, my views and beliefs shifted from uncertainly to outright disbelief and rejection of anything any organized religion had to offer. I just didn't "get it," or see the point in religion. These questions that people supposedly ask, about if there is a God, or what happens after you die; these things simply don't cross my mind, and I really couldn't have cared less. I would get the occassional "you're going to hell" spiel, but I wouldn't actually care.

As I went through HS and college, I learned more about not only Christianity, but also the other religions of the world. The more I learned, the more disgusted I became with the followers of Christianity I had met; on the whole, to me, they just seemed intolerant and  ignorant of anything outside their little bubble of existance.

Though one person in particular in my life breaks this mold, and tha would be one of my history professors. PhD from Johns Hopkins, fluent in Latin and Greek (and probably German), has a DD from Princeton Seminary, and is an ordained minister (I want to say Prespetyrian. Regardless, some of his stories from those days are funny). He may be a Christian and a believer in Christ, but he refuses to accept anything simply at face value. Instead, he tries to prove these things with historical evidence (though I skipped out on the course on Historical Christ he taught this past Spring). I have nothing but respect for this man.

Unfortunately, most devout "Christians" I know are ignorant douchebags that do nothing to change my view of them, or their religion.

BTW, my time in Rome was the first time in about 10 years I had stepped inside a church. I jokingly feared that my heathen body would spontaneously combust upon entering the Vatican City.

[Calantus]

My parents are both athiests, though I didn't know that until I was in my teens. I've never been to church in my life apart from a few weddings and a baptism (don't do funerals, sorry, I grieve on my own terms), and none of those for a while as I tend to just go to the reception and nobody has minded so far.

My main interactions with organized religion have been the religous classes, called scriptures (don't know if you guys have them) where a religous person would tell us about god and jesus and such-like during school. Now, having never been exposed to religion I didn't know what to make of it all. My parents said that they would give me a note to get out of those classes if I didn't want to go but I could go if I wanted. Since my friends went to them I figured I might as well stay with them. During these classes, I'm not sure when exactly, the idea that people who don't believe in God go to hell filtered its way down to me. As a young child the idea of being sent to hell for eternity was naturally frightening.

I didn't believe in God. They'd go on about all these stories and yadda yadda but it never seemed right to me. But going to hell... that's some pretty fierce motivation to believe right there. When I would think about God and whether I believed or not I would always come to the conclusion I didn't but would always suffix the thought with "if you are real God I'm sorry". Eventually I would come cry myself to sleep many nights thinking about how I might go to hell for not believing. Nobody else knew about it but I was very depressed for a while and genuinely afraid of hell for a long time. We're talking years of pre-pubescent doubt and fear.

Eventually when I matured enough to be sure of my convictions I decided that I didn't believe in God period, and that Hell was a fantasy. I'll never forget those years of doubt and fear though. So yeah, every time I think of organised religion I think of the effectiveness of their little fear-tactic on my young psyche and get... shall we say, a little annoyed. My parents never influenced me one way or the other beyond what influence "believe what you want to believe" can give. It was only after I was mature enough to have a belief and be firm in it (and they knew what I believed) that we even talked about religion.

I don't have a problem with people who believe, it really isn't my business. I DO get very annoyed when people try to talk up their religion to me, but I can control the outburst because I know that most are genuinely trying to help (save my soul, etc, etc). I also get VERY annoyed when people try to change laws etc based on religion because it's basically pissing on everyone who doesn't believe as they do.

To me the best christian is the kind of person where you go to organize something for Sunday and then are surprised when they say they have church. I like that people can have a core belief and yet not feel the need to shout it out to the world or force it onto others. There are many religous people in my family and other than the jesus-on-crucifix in my grandparent's room (now THAT is a scary fucking image) and the occasional invite to weddings/etc at churches I wouldn't even know it. I like that.

That's basically me and religion summed up. I'm about as anti-religous as you can be without being a violent loony, so nothing short of God materialising in front of me would change my beliefs and I'm more than likely to give Him the finger if He did.



Semi aside: Funnily enough I also consider organized atheism to be very amusing and a little disturbing. I guess it just strikes me that many people use their beliefs as a staging point to give other people grief and/or feel elitist. Doesn't seem to matter if it's religous or anti-religous people just gotta be assholes about something. Reminds me of those xbox/ps2 forum wars the kiddies get into.

Peoples' anecdotes help me cement a part of the root cause, which I think centers on the fact that the organized church is not engendering a feeling of brotherhood, but rather a combative attitude towards the secular world. In other words, I'm trying to figure out why the church is training people to be divisive, when it's against what I would think is it's community duty. I believe they are taking Jesus' words, "I am the sword to divide brother against brother," a bit too seriously.

Exactly, the "you're going to hell" stuff totally ruined any opportunity the church had with me. I was never made to feel that here is what we believe and it's fine if you don't why don't you take a look. It was always this is what IS, take it or go to hell. How can they expect me to consider what they say when they cannot give my beliefs the time of day? It's too late for them now, but it didn't have to be that way.

EDIT: Also, it feels very old to me. I can't quite place my finger on it but I always felt a bit of a devide from it all even when I wasn't sure of my beliefs. It's like when I read Lord of the Rings when I was little, it felt old. And whereas I like that kind of feeling coming from a fantasy novel it just doesn't inspire me to feel a part of an organisation. Hard to explain but I hope you get what I mean.

[Llava]

A couple notes to add:

I'm actually not all that against organized religion, I seriously studied Buddhism and considered becoming a practicing Buddhist for a while, but decided that I liked everything but the dogma/prayer.  But organized Christianity did, does, and likely will strike a negative tone with me for the rest of my life.  Whether that's the bullshit I dealt with in high school (being compared to murderers on a daily basis makes you bitter), my resent towards the "youth group" I was in for some fairly underhanded techniques in, let's say, "getting them while they're young", or just my irritation at the religion as a whole I can't say.  But the word "church" strikes a negative tone with me and I can say with as much conviction as anyone my age can claim about their future, the day I turn to organized religion will not see me in a Christian religion.

My girlfriend's parents are quite Christian.  They're also from Mexico.  The culture in which my girlfriend was raised (Texas, but the part of Texas that's basically Mexico) is about 70 years behind the times.  Her parents are better than that, but after nearly five years of being together they're still not happy when she comes over to my house because it's "inappropriate".  "People will talk" is something they actually say.  NO.  PEOPLE WILL NOT TALK ABOUT THIS.  NO ONE GIVES A SHIT, I ASSURE YOU.  Uh, I got distracted.  So yeah- the rules of tradition are binding them to unreasonable expectations for their children, and I can't help but feel a bit of resent for those rules and their source because of all the grief they've caused the two of us.

[Zetor]

I'm kind of a weird case. My dad's agnostic and my mom, while having a catholic mother and a protestant father, didn't raise any of us 3 children as christians. After 1989 when the Commie regime crumbled in Hungary, she had us baptized and attend 'theology classes' (basically Hour 0 from 7am to 8am every tuesday, kinda like sunday school in the US?). All three of us became devout catholics after that, joining the scouts, doing altar service at Mass, receiving the Eucharist and Confirmation (? I only know the Hungarian names for these), attending all sorts of youth programs, etcetera. I even won a bible competition once as the 'champion' of our church.

So why am I a cold-hearted semi-agnostic now? Well, oddly enough, our mother was the one who kept skipping Masses and such; the problem as she explained it (and I tend to agree) was the community itself. Our priest was an absolutely awesome preacher (and very much unlike the stereotype -- he was famous for his collection of Stephen King movies, for one), but the leaders of the 'community' were an extremely uptight and obnoxious bunch, quite a few of them being members or supporters of the local extreme right. It all got a lot worse during the 2002 elections when the catholic church openly supported the 'family values / conservative' party even going as far to put out decrees "strongly urging catholics to vote for the proper party" that must be announced by the priest at the end of the Mass. This further incensed the extreme right-wingers in the church and when all sorts of after-Mass speeches about abolishing Trianon, etc. started popping up, I figured this wasn't what I originally came here for. Politics shouldn't ever be a topic in the church imo, but this wasn't the only reason I left.

That was also the time when the church took a combative stance versus a lot of things; when I talked with our priest, he said (deadly serious) that "the internet should be banned". He then went on to say how all global media could be a great vessel for the Evangelium, but instead it's "wasted on filth", which I kinda violently disagreed with. I also disagreed with people sending anonymous letters to the priest saying "you are not fit to be our spiritual leader". Come on, what kind of Christian sends anonymous hate mail and what do they expect from it?!

So yeah. I dunno what really broke the camel's back, but I do know I stopped going to Mass in 2002 or so. Haven't been to church since. I suspect it was my father's occasional comments about how "the church tells you what to think instead of thinking for yourself" that got to me after the hungarian catholic church started the crusade of banning 'offensive' cartoons like pokémon, dragonball z, etc.. and they succeeded. Hey, those cartoons sure hurt my brain and my faith in humanity (who watches that crap?), but banning? Jeez. :P


Looking back, my situation was pretty much what Paelos wrote in reply #25 (I started writing this post in a separate window, occasionally reading more posts from the thread), but I don't want to delete all that inane crap I wrote. You all have to read it all and SUFFER.



-- Z.

[Signe]

Hugely religious Catholic family, hated it, kicked out of Catholic school, refused to go to church at 13 much to my mother's chagrin, got an education,  Atheist.

Maybe those should have been semi colons?

Oh... about the topic... my experiences with organised relition were crap.  Catholicism makes absolutely no sense to me at all... in fact, religion makes very little sense to me, regardless of what flavour it is.  Catholicism is at the top of my "Religions to Fuck Right Off" list, however.   

[Sky]

Also, I'm trying to come up with the idea of a solution. That is, a church that would be a more welcoming spirit to the world. What would this church look like? Who would belong? What would a church have to do to reach out to you, and let you know that they are pleased you are there without seeming agenda driven?

There's nothing an organized religion could do to bring me into it's fold. Nothing.

I have serious intellectual difficulties with religions in general, and christianity in particular.

[stray]

I have serious intellectual difficulties with religions in general, and christianity in particular.

They really are all the same, man. Not that I'm trying to defend Christianity here. Like I said, I'm a Christian myself, and even I can't stand "Christianity". Lol......But I've seen many of the same traits in other groups --- religious and otherwise. Doesn't matter.

I also forgot to mention that my Dad is/was semi-Agnostic (not necessarily....it's just that he doesn't really care either way) and my Mom a Theravedan Buddhist. This probably (besides my own experiences with various churches and groups) seals the deal as far as how I view Christianity and how it relates to me as a whole.

[Roac]

Quick background on my family; my parents divorced when I was around 2, and both remarried, both having a second kid with their new spouse.  My dad who I like a good deal isn't religious.  My step-mom enjoys going to church, but I have every reason to believe it is because she enjoys being social and for appearance sake, not because she has any real belief in God.  I lived with my mom and step-dad, neither of whom was particularly religious growing up.  We rarely went to church, and religious matters were never discussed much one way or another.  We said prayer at dinner, until around the time I was a teenager and we started eating in the living room infront of the TV. 

My first run in with the church is when I dated (for as much as that word is applicable) a Catholic in elementary school.  I wasn't Catholic so he didn't want her to date me, but relented because he was impressed with me; at the ripe age of 10, I could give him a firm handshake.  Go figure.  I was still annoyed  by that stance though, and took it as a personal insult.  It just rubbed me the wrong way, as sort of a "if you don't like me, then I don't like you (the church)" thing. 

The second big incident is when I got into D&D.  I was, I dunno, 14 or 15, and to me it was just a neat game.  I had a friend of mine whose parents were strictly religious, and they wouldn't let him play.  Got lots of "so do you worship demons too?" from religious-minded kids, which earned a resounding "huh?" from me.  So at this point I get somewhat curious, and ask around as to why everyone felt it was so horrible.  I never did get a satisfactory answer, and the piss-poor reasoning on the side of religious activists turned me off entirely. 

It was about this point that I decided I was an athiest.  I'd never really considered the question prior, but when it was pushed on me, I went with the direction that made the most apparent rational sense.  No one in the religious camp could form good arguments, and it seemed far too easy to fire off arguments they couldn't address.  I was frequently told "you just have to have faith".  And I did - that they were full of it.  Probably not what they meant.

The last big change is when I was 19 or 20, and it was the understanding that a scientific approach could be applied to religion - any religion.  You can't normally quantify it in the way that you can mix chemicals in a test tube, but you can qualify it.  Historical, textural, sociological and other analasys can be brought to bear to deal with the questions.  For me this was just an extention of the debates that I was involved in at the time and for the several years prior, with the evolution vs creationism debate to pick a big one.  What I started to wonder, was that since science was consistantly brought to bear on arguments against religion, why isn't it applied on the side for it?  Or rather, could it be?  This wasn't so much as a case of "trying to prove religion" as much as it was wondering what you wound up with if you applied rational thinking toward religion instead of actively against it.

It was toward that end that I took several high level religious courses in college, to include non-Christian studies.  One of my professors, an Orthodox Christian, was one of the best instructors I've ever had.  He would always try to start the class off with a statement that would piss off fundamental Christians, like "God does not exist.", then go on to qualify it.  He was to a point inflamatory, but what he did was to challenge people to think about /why/ they thought like they did.  I have come to feel he best illustrates what a Christian should be, because he has done the best at trying to make people think about their relationship with God.

The worst Christians I've met would still be fundies, because whether intentional or not, their goal is to not let you think about God.  Thinking is verboten, and these are some of the most mentally bankrupt people I've met.  I would describe the people who lead fundie churches as almost predatory in nature, and no better than a Tom Cruise clone.  For too many people, they are failing to answer the very basic question of "why do you matter?", and it shows in the lackluster support many have toward church.  Hence, many decide that they don't.

[Sairon]

You'd get jewels for things like passing your Bible quizzes, etc.  You also got one jewel each time just for showing up.  That's the only way I advanced- I showed up.

Grinded lvls already at age of 7? :D

More seriously, things like that is pretty disturbing and unethical in my mind, and it seems very common to reward kids with candy and other things and get them to learn the bible in that way. To me it just sounds like brain washing the poor kids.

All of my relatives are christians but nothing more than that. No one in my family has ever actively been going to church. When I grew up I pretty early got to know about the bible and christanity, but it never intrested me and that was perfectly fine for my parents. Highly religious people is pretty rare here in Sweden, the majority of the population is christian and has had about the same experience as me, atleast that's the impression I have.

However, there were one guy which was in the same class as me when I grew up. I don't recall his exact religion but his family had a certain fetish for the bible, and it gave him a lot of problems in school. He didn't have what I would call a healthy view on the world as it is today, he didn't know anything about sex, drugs, alcohol etc except that it was bad and you were going for a 1 way ride to hell if you came in contact with it. He was often bullied and people often made fun of him. I don't know what the school subject is called in english, but it's where you get to learn how to cook and take care of a household, anyway the teacher had us taste diffrent fun fruits and spices from all over the world. Afterwards one guy tricked this religious guy and said that one of the spices actually were drugs, the religious guy became terrified and ran home crying. He also had problems with learning certain subjects, and it felt to me as a part of the problem was that he was to close minded, which often seems to be a product of religion.

I think it's stupid to belive in something which can't be proven to you. I'm not denying that there might be a god but if he doesn't want to show himself then I'm not going to worship him. I don't see anything good coming out of religion, just wars and people wasting their lives in churches/mosques. I'm planning on living the rest of my life without killing people etc and doing what I find right, I don't need a religion for that. Out of all the religions I think buddism seems like the best option though, the Dalai Lama also comes of as a very wise leader.

[eldaec]

Mostly had issues with how too many people in churches appear to believe in the moral authority of the church, as opposed to that of the God. Too many statements made in terms of 'x is true', insufficent use of 'I believe x is true, here's why'. Got bored, didn't go back.

The modern Catholic vs Orthodox tension seems particularly absurd in that light. And I guess I still have some sympathy for those parts of the Anglican communion who are learning over time not to sweat the small stuff, and to waste less time focussing on the region between waist and knee.

Out of all the religions I think buddism seems like the best option though.

/agree... but admittedly based on *very* limited knowledge.

[Merusk]

My family went to church almost every Sunday up until I was 12 or 13.  We went to a Presbyterian church in Bay Village, near Cleveland about 10 miles from my house.  From my current understanding of Presbys, they were quite liberal for that branch of the faith. I never felt any real connection to the place, and dropped out of Sunday school at around age 9 or 10 in favor of going to the 'adult' services.  I enjoyed the sermons and singing much much more than the silly arts and crafts with a biblical slant.  I dalled with the teen church group at around 12, but they all knew each other and seemed more interested in talking about Jr. High than anything else, so I wasn't that trilled with it.

I don't recall why we stopped going.  Part of it was my dad losing his job, I'm sure.  I think more of it was that it had just felt to my parents like it was something they were obligated to do.  That obligation faded as we started to get older and would get pissy about going (4 kids over 8 years, of which I was the oldest) so we stopped.  We did Christmas/ Easter for a year or two after that but even that stopped.

I don't go now because of several reasons. The biggest is that my philosophy doesn't jibe with organized religion.  I do believe there's a creator, becase like the old quote goes, I see the marvels of the world all around me.  However, I think we were put here to explore and understand those works.  Organized religion has always seemed to me about easy answers and stifiling the exploration of the mysteries of the world we've been granted.  Platitudes that stop you from having to think and crucially examine situations and their intricate consequences.  This is Good, that is Bad as absolutes because of ancient mandates rather than because of an understanding of what makes them good and bad. (And yes, I believe in absolute good and absolute bad and right vs wrong.  "Shades of grey" is bullshit as well.)

Organized religion also reinforces the "Us vs Them" mentality that has the good chance of destroying us as a species.  We are good because we believe this, you are bad because you believe that.  I am good and 'more holy' because I am a holy man, while you are bad and 'more profane' because you are not.  Ghandi is going to hell because he wasn't a Christian (Yes, I've been told that) while Pope Pious, or even Hitler could be absolved and welcomed into Heaven by confession or 'accepting Jesus' in the last instant of their lives. Utter crap.

I also think there's no way a man can ever know an ultimate creator's mind.  Religion tries to do that on a macro scale, and that's just not right.  "The world was created in 7 days." Great.. what's a "Day" to an eternal being.  How are they going to explain that length of time to a man who doesn't have a concept of a number greater than a few hundred, or even 0.  That's the kind of dichotomy the Bible was written through if you accept it as the true word of God.  Religion ignores that as if it weren't a factor.

Plus, I don't think it's right to make-up my kid's minds for them.  When my daughter has questions I answer directly and honestly. (And she's almost 7 now so the hard questions have been coming up recently.) But I know for a fact most people don't see things this way.  She's come home from school several times with some rough questions after some Ky Bible Thumper has tried to make-up her mind and force her down a path of Baptism or Catholicism.

As for the 'worst' christian' I've met.  It was a whole family.  It was the family of the girl I dated in High School for my Jr. and part of my Sr. year. They were very openly devout, praying before all meals, the display of the crosses and had an active social life in thieir church.  None of this bothered me in the way I know it would have some people with a blinding hatred of religion.  I even went to church with them and put-up with the disapproving looks and the lectures about the Metal I listened to.

While I wound-up sleeping with the girl, she seemed pretty upset about the whole affair after each time it happened, but she never wanted to stop while we were dating. (And a few times afterwards) Over the course of the year I learned some stuff that just seemed so Hypocritical I couldn't resolve it.  The mother had some kind of affair with someone high-up in their church, the eldest daughter had gotten kicked-out of the Baptist college she went to for getting caught sleeping with someone (which we weren't allowed to discuss, her sister told me to explain why I had to be less touchy-feely --hand-holding-- around her parents.) and the girl I was dating had an abortion about 9 months before I started dating her (she only told me because the father had been one of my high school friends, and the rest of my guy friends had said she'd better stop lying to me or they'd tell me.)

  I was floored by each revelation because these were things they all were pretty hardcore against and spoke openly about how bad other folks were for doing them.  This is probably what started my final break with all things having to deal with organized religion.  If these people could be so hypocritical and think they were so superior simply because they went to church on Sundays, how could that be right? I started pondering the nature of man and their own relationship with their creator and following the path of a greater morality.  I still ponder these questions because it's an ongoing evolution.

This is pretty haphazzard because I did it in an hour over lunch, and if anything I'm verbose and my mind jumps from idea to idea way too quickly without fully explaining them.

Out of all the religions I think buddism seems like the best option though.

/agree... but admittedly based on *very* limited knowledge.

Buddism seems like a great 'way' of religion, but I disagree about Nirvana being the ultimate state.  I think there's more for us than Oblivion after our souls achieve an enlightened state. Oblivion is too 'gothy' and angsty a viewpoint.. Buddah must have been on his teenage reincarnation when he came up with that one ;)

[AOFanboi]

Norway has a Lutheran state church, and most people are members - passively. In fact, up to a few years ago, the church didn't keep membership records but simply subtracted people registered in other churches and faith organizations from the general population and called the rest members. But not many people go to church; the "free" churches and missionary orgs are far more popular among the actual believers.

I was raised in the countryside which is generally less secular than the cities, so I went to church when the school class did, and got a Lutheran confirmation because that's what you did unless you wanted to stand out.

But at age 14-15 I realized I was an atheist just going through the motions, and left the church. Or, at least I thought I did. But back then, only the local clergy office you "resigned" at kept a record; a lot of people walk around believing they are not members, but are still counted as that. Neither of my parents were keen on religion at all. (I think my father was atheist, and my mother is perhaps agnostic. Not sure.)

Bah on state churches. Sweden is supposed to "un-State" their soon, if they have not already. Not much chance of that happening here, since the Prime Minister is, well, a minister, and the dominating social democratic party like their "People's Church" because they can control it, which has lead to things like kicking out anti-abortion ministers and ordaining female priests and bishops.

[Samwise]

Let's try to stay on topic, folks, and answer Paelos's question.  If we all just post our own stupid opinions and then respond to each other's stupid opinions in turn, this thread's level of stupid will grow at an exponential rate.  It's pure mathematical fact.

What I'm NOT looking for is opinions on people or churches you've never had a personal experience with. To me, those opinions are always based on an internal personal experience, and that's the key to what I'm looking for.

[stray]

Out of all the religions I think buddism seems like the best option though.

/agree... but admittedly based on *very* limited knowledge.

You'll find douchebaggery anywhere. As I said above, my Mom's a Buddhist, and has been one all her life. That doesn't mean she doesn't have similar complaints as anyone who questions Christianity (or whatever). I think some of the appeal of Eastern stuff to Westerners (and not to take away from the value of the original teachings themselves) is a lot about "the grass is always greener on the other side". It's about boredom. Because if it's mysticism and enlightenment people are looking for, then they'd value it no matter where it's pokes it's head out of.

Anyways....Back to the point...I've seen firsthand how some Buddhist monks can cause a bit of trouble and irritation of their own. I've seen them do similarly questionable things as Pastor Joe Blow. There's good and there's bad, as with anything. Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, Atheists, plumbers, locksmiths, beany baby collectors, you name it.

And as far as "Buddhism" goes, it's not all the same either. There's dozens of sects and factions of Buddhism. There's not very many all encompassing factors within the different sects Buddhism just as much as there isn't with Christianity. To their credit though, they haven't had a history of religious war like Europe and the West has.

[Rodent]

Born and raised as a swedish Lutheran ( AKA the "God loves you, doesn't care if you love him back. So long as you regret your sins and don't object to the idea when judgement day comes, your ass in going to heaven" way of Christianity) due to my mother being a priest. Confirmed in the monestary of Taizé.

Didn't think much of the church or the religion during my teens, at most I enjoyed pointing out anything christian sects wrongdoings to my mother.

Theese days I study at the university and pay my bills thanks to the part-time job I was given in Lunds Cathedral. After having worked there for a couple of years my outlook on christianity has once again taken a turn. I am not a hardcore beliver in anyway but almost daily I see the church becomming a place of refuge for the stressed, the mourning, the poor, or thoose who are just lonely. So theese days I am very pro-christianity (So long as it's a christianity that focuses on making peoples lives better, not thoose whacky sects that pop up every now and again). It's also a blast to hear a bishop tell jokes like "What's the similarity between christmas ornaments and a catholic priests balls?"*.




* Just for show

[Sairon]

Yea but I mean more about the teachings. While I do find a lot of things in the bible to be good, there's also stuff which I consider to be bad, no sex before marriage, no female priests etc, lots of stuff. While I don't know everything about buddism I did some research in school a bunch of years ago and it all seemed very sensible. And Dalai Lama > pope in my opinion.

And to go a bit on topic again, a more welcoming church would be a church -all the religious stuff, but then I guess it wouldn't really be a church.

[HaemishM]

I'll just topline it.

Every church I ever went to more than once and tried to be a part of (this includes Baptist and Assembly of God churches) could not tolerate questions about the Bible. None of them could. I don't mean "Is the Devil really God?" or some stupid shit, but just useful questions like, "Why?" There could be no questioning of the beliefs the church was teaching, none. Any questions were eventually met with "You're going to hell if you don't believe exactly this way."

My college was a 4-year Presbyterian college. Not only did I get the above (and was forced to go to Chapel and listen to preaching every Tuesday), but I almost got my scholarship taken away in an underhanded manner. See, I had the grades and the test scores to get the Presidential Scholarship, of which they only gave 2 a year. Full tuition paid, but didn't cover books, dorm fees, etc. First year I live in the dorm and my parent's pay for it, along with Pell Grants. Second year, I decide not to live on campus and just stay with my parents, since the drive wasn't that long and it would cost less. The school, who has hired some kind of financial consulting firm to keep them from losing money, decides that they want to yank my scholarship, it was too expensive. When asked for a reason, they claim it was because the scholarship required me to live on campus. But, nothing I'd ever signed, nothing I'd ever been told, hell, not even the college catalog mentioned this. They tried to claim it was an unwritten rule, after which I told them they could shove unwritten rules because no one could enforce them. They caved, but it was a solid month of bitching back and forth before they did.

That made the pattern of dealing with "religious people" and institutions later in my life make sense. Anytime someone tries to get me to do business with them without contracts because they are a "Christian man" and thus won't fuck me on the deal, I just don't work with. To paraphrase Burroughs, I can't trust them, not with God on his side telling him how to fuck me in the deal.

Every church or church organization I ever attended during the time I had hair down to my shoulder blades gave me the look of "what are you doing here?"

[stray]

I'll just topline it.

Every church I ever went to more than once and tried to be a part of (this includes Baptist and Assembly of God churches) could not tolerate questions about the Bible. None of them could. I don't mean "Is the Devil really God?" or some stupid shit, but just useful questions like, "Why?" There could be no questioning of the beliefs the church was teaching, none. Any questions were eventually met with "You're going to hell if you don't believe exactly this way."

I remember one Sunday school teacher guy flipped out when I simply started asking him to clarify what he was teaching. I wasn't even asking "Why?" type questions....More like: If such and such is the case, then why does this and this passage say this?....etc., etc.. I wasn't badgering him or nothing, just trying to get involved in "what" he was teaching. The old dude got so frustrated that he just clenched his teeth and whispered to me "Don't back in me a corner, little boy." Heh. Ummm...OK? Shouldn't he be happy that someone's interested enough to talk about these things?

I don't think he was there to "teach" so much as he was there to just get off on the idea that he had authority.

[Llava]

I did go to church with my grandma (the awesome one) a couple years ago, as a class assignment (world religions- the assignment was to go to an official religious gathering of a religion to which you don't belong).

It was... boring and awkward, mostly.  But they didn't make me feel unwelcome, and they didn't flip out when I passed on the communion (the inner smartass was telling me to say I had a big breakfast, but I avoided that) or even give me a dirty look, they just went on to the next person.  So overall it was a nice place, just really not for me and not something I'd want to do once a month, much less once a week.

And yes Buddhism has plenty of dogma and "organized" problems like any other religion, which is why I decided it wasn't really for me in the end, and I don't really believe in the mystical side of it all, but I think, of the religions I've studied, it teaches the lessons with which I most agree and I try to emulate their values in my day-to-day life.  And Nirvana isn't so much Oblivion as it is transcendence, Oneness, a removal of the illusions and fractured personalities dragging you a hundred different ways- basically it's the same as Heaven, in that you simply feel content, the difference is that it's not because your desires are fulfilled, but because you no longer have desires, and you're not a separate person from the rest of the souls like people imagine Heaven, you become one with all, including any "god".  I know it's off topic but this font is smaller so that makes it okay.

[voodoolily]

I dated a boy from a Christian family in high school, and went to church with them once (I think it was a Foursquare church). They sang "There's Power in the Blood of the Lamb."

'Nuff said.

[Samwise]

I'll just topline it.

Every church I ever went to more than once and tried to be a part of (this includes Baptist and Assembly of God churches) could not tolerate questions about the Bible. None of them could. I don't mean "Is the Devil really God?" or some stupid shit, but just useful questions like, "Why?" There could be no questioning of the beliefs the church was teaching, none. Any questions were eventually met with "You're going to hell if you don't believe exactly this way."

I remember one Sunday school teacher guy flipped out when I simply started asking him to clarify what he was teaching. I wasn't even asking "Why?" type questions....More like: If such and such is the case, then why does this and this passage say this?....etc., etc.. I wasn't badgering him or nothing, just trying to get involved in "what" he was teaching. The old dude got so frustrated that he just clenched his teeth and whispered to me "Don't back in me a corner, little boy." Heh. Ummm...OK? Shouldn't he be happy that someone's interested enough to talk about these things?

I don't think he was there to "teach" so much as he was there to just get off on the idea that he had authority.

That was pretty much the big thing that changed between my grade school religious education and my high school religious education.  The people teaching religion at my grade school were for the most part completely unequipped to handle real questions and discussion, and many of them probably would have reacted the way you describe.  Almost all of my religion classes in high school focused on discussion, and no questions were out of bounds.  It completely changed my view of religion to find out that it was possible to have rational discussions about it with my peers rather than just having platitudes handed down by cranky old people.

[stray]

All well said, but I had very little exposure to Christianity when I was at grade school age. The thing that's funny about that story is that I was 18 when it happened. And needless to say, if he hadn't been an old man, my reaction probably would have been something different than just laughing about it.

[Paelos]

Ok just to help me out, lets make a little summary list. If you could do it, give me the top five things that bother you the most about organized Christian churches in order. Then, give me the top five characteristics you think a ideal Christian person should have. Thanks!

[Hanzii]

I remember one Sunday school teacher guy flipped out when I simply started asking him to clarify what he was teaching. I wasn't even asking "Why?" type questions....More like: If such and such is the case, then why does this and this passage say this?....etc., etc.. I wasn't badgering him or nothing, just trying to get involved in "what" he was teaching. The old dude got so frustrated that he just clenched his teeth and whispered to me "Don't back in me a corner, little boy." Heh. Ummm...OK? Shouldn't he be happy that someone's interested enough to talk about these things?

I don't think he was there to "teach" so much as he was there to just get off on the idea that he had authority.

The only teacher to ever use violence against me, was our local priest who literally kicked me in the ass at the annoying age of 12 for asking too many question. The school board realised shortly after, that just because the guy was a man of god, didn't mean he was good with kids.

Just like Norway and Sweden above, we have a national Lutheran church which any kid with at least one parent that is a member is automatically a member of. So that's something like 90-95% of the population. None of my parents were members, but they messed up so I was... until I got my first paper route and I got the tax papers saying that theoretically I was to pay 1,7% in church tax (in theory only - I didn't make enough to pay any tax). I knew by then, that I didn't belive in the Christian god.
I also knew more about the bible and our countrys history with christianity than most of my so-called christian friends.
I think a state chrch is a bad idea, not only for the non-members forced to pay to said church (even if you opt out of church tax, you still pay the priests wage, because they're government employees and pay for upkeep on churches because they're historical buildings) but also for the church itself - a membership of a church you don't seek, but have to actively opt out of breeds indiffrence, which is why no Danish church is EVER full unless it's christmas.

I've been to plenty of sermons (I try to educate myself and keep an open mind), and they leave me cold. Too many funerals by priests, that never knew the dead person, and sound like they're just going through the motions and might as well have worked in a factory. One of my friends nearly became a priest, before he choose journalism (5 years of theology) and we had lots of talks/discussions. He never convinced me, but made me think. He died young and his funeral was in a packed church and very moving. That was his church, he came there regularly and the priest knew him - that was a meaningful and moving ceremony, where his faith played an important part.

Some CHRISTIANS are truly dedicated, and I respect that - I don't support the Red Cross, but give my charity to the Danish Church Aid, because even though they use 1% to do missionary work, they still manage to get a larger percentage into the hands of the needy than any other foreign aid organisation (I know people working for Red Cross - it's a good business to be in). That's what I think of, when I think of true Christians (not being more hung up on banning condoms than saving lives).

[HaemishM]

Top 5 things that bug me about organized Christian Churches:

1) If you do not believe, you are going to hell
2) The idea that if you even THINK of doing something bad (the whole lusting after someone is the exact same as actually having commited adultery or fornication)
3) The boring, rote ritual of the whole thing. Spiritual enlightment should excite people, not bore them to narcolepsy.
4) Spirtual enlightment should excite, but it should not cause you to commit overt, bombastic acts to prove your worthiness, like speaking in tongues, handling dangerous fucking snakes, or running up and down the aisles of the church screaming "Praise God! Hallelujah!" and other indecipherables (2 out of 3 of these things I've actually witnessed).
5) Tolerance for other religions and cultures should be the very first thing on the agenda. Also, as a community, church should be more about discussion, akin to philosophy classes in college, than about one preacher and his choir man telling you like it is.

Seriously, the biggest problem churches have in actually fulfilling their mission is that they do not encourage DISCUSSION. Church services should not be gigantic, rehearsed affairs with singing at the appointed time, followed by prayer at the appointed time, etc. They should be roundtables, where people are encouraged to talk about their religion. Sunday schools are atrocious, especially those for kids. I've never been in a Sunday School class where just discussing the Bible was encouraged in anyway other than "it's completely and utterly true without any embellishment or imperfections."

Many of the Christians I know cannot separate their belief in God from an absolute belief that the Bible is the unaltered word of God handed down through generations and completely as God wants it to be shown. They completely refuse to acknowledge the possibilty that man might have had a say in what that book says.

[AOFanboi]

1. As with any influential organization, a church will attract people who seek power and position for its own sake.
2. There is, as others have pointed out in the thread, little desire for theological debate, at least in the non-Catholic denominations.
3. Churches presenting Christianity or the Bible to kids censor a lot. Not just cherry-picking what passages to present, but even omitting central parts of the stories they do choose. E.g. avoiding the whole "our daddy offered us to the mob, let's thank him by fucking him and produce sons" part of Lot/Sodoma/Gomorrah, or ignoring that Onan wasn't spanking the monkey.
4. There are simply too many sects and variants. How can one choose? At least they don't call other branches for evil satanists any more. Often.
5. There is already a new version out, Monotheism version 2.5, codename "Islam". Which fixes the bug where suddenly one God was three, and the other bug where Jesus was God's son instead of just an important prophet. And which users of Monotheism 2.0 don't like. They liked their bugs thank you very much.

For characteristics, pick any five of these:

Matthew 5:3 - "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:4 - Blessed are they who mourn, for they will be comforted.
Matthew 5:5 - Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the land.
Matthew 5:6 - Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be satisfied.
Matthew 5:7 - Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
Matthew 5:8 - Blessed are the clean of heart, for they will see God.
Matthew 5:9 - Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.
Matthew 5:10 - Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:11-12 - Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you (falsely) because of me. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven."

You could "apply a patch" from version 2.5 though. They have five pillars; these are the testimony of faith, the daily prayers, fasting during Ramadan, giving "zakat" to the poor (2.5 % of wealth seems to be the norm), and the Hajj. As a Christian you won't get to Mecca or Medina, but you can substitute with a visit to Rome, Betlehem or Jerusalem. As for fasting, early Christians did that leading up to Christmas anyway.

[stray]

Ok just to help me out, lets make a little summary list. If you could do it, give me the top five things that bother you the most about organized Christian churches in order. Then, give me the top five characteristics you think a ideal Christian person should have. Thanks!

I'm not sure what to write about churches atm, so I'll just touch on characteristics:

An ability to see the value and wisdom in other things besides Christianity. Even the Apostles and Saints could appeal to people's senses in all kinds of ways. They were well rounded individuals, and not so one tracked. And Christianity wouldn't have even gotten off the ground in the first place if it wasn't essentially syncretistic.

A person who doesn't try to back their personal bias with the authority of God or Christ (i.e. D&D is evil, long hair is evil, Elvis is evil, liberals are evil, whatever...etc., etc...). It's no surprise that a lot of people hate what they've experienced from Christians --- They should. A lot of what "church folk" teach is irrelevant, and mostly offensive, nonsense.

A person who doesn't see every non Christian as a "mission field" (slightly related to point 1). Someone who doesn't even try to preach even if the subject of religion comes up. Someone who just talks and hangs out like a normal person, and even when the subject of religion comes up, talks with people, instead of to them.

Someone who doesn't mainly see God as a source of power (naturally, the idea of "God" entails power -- I'm just saying that it's the focus and emphasis of things that changes how people behave).

Simply put: A nice person.

[Sairon]

Ideal christian person
1. Understand that others doesn't have the same belif as he do
2. Relating to the first, don't try to force your belifs on me
3. If he's a beliving christian then he should live by the book, else he's just a hipocrate

Might add a 4 and 5 later when I come to think of anything

I pretty much agree with everybody else when it comes to the church as an organization. I'l try to add a few though.

1. A lot of the values from the old scriptures simply doesn't work in todays society, women for example comes off as nothing more than the servant of the man

[Xilren's Twin]

If you could do it, give me the top five things that bother you the most about organized Christian churches in order. Then, give me the top five characteristics you think a ideal Christian person should have. Thanks!

First the negatives on organized religion:
1.  The singlemindedness - doesn't matter the denomination (or even the root religion for that matter), organized churchs naturally lead to groups of only like minded individuals who make unwelcome different opinions.  Doesn't even have to be outright "you don't belong here" crap; it's not hard to make people feel uncomfortable or unwelcome just by not being friendly to them.  So people who don't toe the accepted views usually go elsewhere they feel more welcome, or simply keep quiet and as a result get very little from attendance.
2.  The passivity - as many have said, if "going to church" is nothing more than listening to someone else lecture, it's just not very effective.  No discussion, unless you happened to get some from a good Sunday School class.  Hard to really learn from that enviroment.
3. The formulaic nature -  While most Christian churchs follow the same service each week, the catholic churches heavy reliance on archaic ritual drove me nuts as a kid, even when learning the "whys" of the various parts of the Mass by going to catholic shool from grades 7-12.  I could see a Monty Python skit of a mass coregraphed by a gay dance instructor now ... "and one and two now Kneel! two three four Stand! two three four Sign of the Cross! two three four...".  That being said, I also know other people who find the regularity extremely comforting in that they know they could go almost anywhere in the world and find a church where they could take part in a familiar service.
4.  The stasis - let's face it, we all know people hate change, but in terms of religion people seem to hate change a LOT more.  I could actually combine poinst 1-4 into an overall theme in that organized religion just doesn't seem to evolve and grow much, not matter what demonination.  Do people really think of their religions "that's it; it's perfect, let keep it just like this forever"?  Churches don't generally change; they might split and some people go off to form their own slightly modified version of what they just had, but the pace of change is less than snail like.
5.  And finally - the people.  Not everyone to be sure, but every church I have ever been too has always had it's share of idiots and jerks, hypocrites and troublemakers, power hungerers and attention seekers.  And THAT, more than anything else, is what is wrong with orgnaized religion.  The people involved generally suck.

The irony of course, is it's really no different outside of organzied religion, it's just by the very nature of it's organization, it makes it very easy to spot.  I'm not anti-organized religion so much as I am convinced human foilbles spoil 90% of any well intentioned activity with more than 15 people invovled.

As to top 5 characterisitcs of ANY person
1: Patience - without a doubt #1
2. Kindness - caring about others to the point of action, not just words
3. Forgiveness - will need to get exercised LOTS (see point 5 above)
4. Ability to listen - really hard to learn when your mouth is always open
5. Selflessness - it's amazing how much evil and rotteness is purely an outgrowth of man's inherently selfish nature

As a general sum up: don't get caught in the trap of throwing the baby out with the bath water.  Since we know any human institution will be flawed from the get go, throwing out all organized religion (no matter what kind) seems rather short sighted.  Remaining unclear about your own spiritual beliefs or just saying "the hell with the lot of them" b/c it's easier than dealing with the negatives that go along with the positives of any religion/worldview could be a rather selfish attitude.  Have you ever considered how YOU could shape someone else's spiritual decisions?  People learn from each other; it's a two way street.  Spirituality is the same way; generally, you get out what you put in...

The above has been brought to you by the "Church of People are Broken, but Still Better than Blow up Dolls..Mostly"

Xilren
PS As a side, I think the reason a lot of agnostic parent either do or will start bringing the children to some form of church is both cultural pressure, and the search to find some way to teach morality beyond just themselves



 

[Calantus]

Mine are mostly the same as Haem's list, so I just copy+pasted the ones I agreed with and changed the ones I didn't, also changed up the order a bit:

1) If you do not believe, you are going to hell.
2) Sticking to rediculous, outdated, and/or impossible ideas/ideals simply because it is written, instead of just shrugging it away as a corruption of the text by man.
3) Tolerance for other religions and cultures should be the very first thing on the agenda. Also, as a community, church should be more about discussion, akin to philosophy classes in college, than about one preacher and his choir man telling you like it is.
4) The boring, rote ritual of the whole thing. Spiritual enlightment should excite people, not bore them to narcolepsy.
5) Spirtual enlightment should excite, but it should not cause you to commit overt, bombastic acts to prove your worthiness, like speaking in tongues, handling dangerous fucking snakes, or running up and down the aisles of the church screaming "Praise God! Hallelujah!" and other indecipherables (Benny Hinn, you're a crock, GTFO my television).


As for a list of the perfect christian's attributes it's pretty symple:

1) Don't try to make rules changes outside of your church based on your beliefs, all you are doing is telling me you want to control me.
2) Don't wear what you are on your sleeve, someone who defines themself and/or their life based upon an organization or belief system has problems. In other words, I should be able to know you without knowing your religious beliefs.
3) "Practice what you preach".
4) Don't look down on others simply because they are not part of your cliche.
5) Don't tell me about your religion. If you stand around with bibles that's ok, but don't approach me with them. I'll come to you if I'm interested, I can see you there.

[Gong]

Raised in an extremely loose, somewhat Christian environment. My parents both classify themselves as Christian, but neither has actively participated in church since childhood.

As a family, we only went to church for special occasions and occasionally at the behest of my grandparents.

Like most, it seemed cool enough until I started getting old enough to start asking questions about it. Nobody ever had any answers or seemed at all prepared to handle any sort of query, and so the first seeds of doubt were sown.

To escape the miserable state of public schools in Georgia, my parents worked their asses off to send me to the best(academically speaking) private school (K-12) in the area. The teachers were fantastic, however most of my classmates came from extremely sheltered, very rich "old South" families who were unsurprisingly extremely conservative. The attitudes of most of these people really grated me for quite some time, though it wasn't until highschool that things really came to a head.

There were a lot of new kids entering our school in 9th grade, many of whom I became friends with. We were vaguely "altie" in nature, mostly in our musical tastes. We were pretty far from wearing outlandish attire to school, I think the most "controversial" anyone got was putting punk patches on their backpacks and wearing a metal stud bracelet., it was more that we listened to "weird music" and didn't really seem to go along with the rest of the general population of our school. One of my new friends publicly declared his atheism, and within the week he was being glared at in the hallways, threatened with physical violence in the bathrooms, told he was going to hell, and so forth. It was at this point that my group of friends surfaced en masse as having been agnostic/atheistic for quite some time.

Things eventually settled down, but it really left an ugly taste in my mouth about the supposed virtues of acceptance that these people were supposed to be following. Obviously, these people shouldn't even be considered Christians in reality, but I think this is the sort of thing that comes to mind when I think of organized religion. The best Christians I knew were the ones who hardly went to church, or didn't make a big deal out of it if they did. Their faith was a private thing, they were secure in their connection between them and God, and they weren't at all bothered if I didn't agree with them. They didn't stop hanging out with me, or give off a phony/condescending attitude about it. I didn't want to fight them about it, in the way that I often wanted to fight with the closed-minded idiots at my school because I knew that they couldn't defend themselves, although we did sometimes have some interesting discussions just to further our understandings of each others point of view. It was a thing of mutual respect, not any sense of "you're going to hell because you don't believe!". To me, it was just cool and refreshing to see people who were secure, happy, and comfortable in their faith (not running around looking for stupid unrelated things they could do to show how "Christian" they were like beating up atheists in the bathroom).

On a slight aside, I'm strongly against the idea of "youth groups" that so many churches employ. I tagged along to a few of these meetings just to see what they were all about, and they seemed very much to be about 'brainwashing' kids while their minds were still young and malleable. In general, I've found that a lot of people never really stop to question the things they were brought up to believe, and I always thought it was a pretty underhanded practice. It happened a couple of times that people we knew were advised by their youth group leaders to stop hanging out with my group of friends because we were seen as a "dangerous influence". At worst, we were slightly angsty teenagers who were getting a little carried away with the idea of our own intellectual superiority because we didn't believe everything we were told. That didn't last too long, we got over the whole being angry at the religious establishment thing and mostly mellowed out without changing any of our core beliefs on the subject. It was during then, towards the end of our time in highschool, that we really got pretty upset about youth groups.

I know that they're ostensibly about showing kids that it's cool to be Christian, but it always seemed to me that it was just a thinly veiled attempt to keep control over these kids at the one time in their life that they're most likely to start having questions about their faith. And it's not like I mean this in the capacity that these youth group leaders were prepared to help with answers, they mostly just tried to confuse the issue or redirect them to some other distraction.

I've recently learned that some of my relatives used to be atheists but slowly turned around and started going to a Unitarian church. Since then, I've gone to their church a couple of times, and it seems like a cool place, a good exchange of ideas without the guilt and the condemnation and the politics that I usually attach with organize religion. If I were mentally compatible with believing in something through faith alone, that's the sort of church I would want to attend. Even though I'm not, it's still something I enjoy attending every once in a while.

[NowhereMan]

Problems with organised christianity:

1) Lack of discussion. I'll agree 100% with everyone who has said that churches need to be able to deal with people asking searching questions, it should be allowed and people should even be encouraged to think critically about the Bible. I know it's easier for pastors and priests to tell people it's a matter of faith but discouraging questions always makes me think that maybe there just isn't any good reason for some of these things. This point doesn't come from my own experience with church (mine's mostly been Jesuits) but from meeting evangleicals or fundamentalists who think questioning the literal truth of the Bible is akin to sucking at the teat of Satan.

2) Every soul is sacred. I dislike christians who's one goal in life seems to be the conversion of others, I've found this mostly with young evangelical types but it seems to be encouraged by many religous groups. I hate feeling that these people do everything with the underlying purpose of scoring one more soul for their religion. I'll admit that sometimes this can be a feeling that reading bible passages helps you when you feel down so it's only natural to tell other people to turn to the bible for help, I can also understand telling people about what you consider to be something important but I often get the feeling that many christians do good acts more to convert people than to do good.

3) One dimensionalism. I understand that religion for many people is an important thing but I don't like churches or religions that encourage believers to start viewing themselves as a christian first and themselves second. I don't like it when people are spending all their time studying the bible with fellow believers and going to church groups, cutting themselves off from anyone who doesn't believe what they believe.

4) Stupid over the top crap. Like Haemish said, when religion makes you decide to start sticking your hand in a venomous snake's mouth something is fucked up.

5) Politics. I don't think this can be avoided when you've got more than two people doing something but I really hate the politics in churches. My experience is my local Catholic church where my mum's quite good friends with an older couple that are very involved in the parish and a lot of the completely non-christian asstardery that goes on would be enough to put most sane people off organised religion for good.

I should point out that boring rote services didn't make my list at all because I don't mind them that much. I see church services as a kind of meditation, you don't need to be actively stretching your brain all the time on particular things, it gives one a period when you can actually empty your mind and calm yourself, I also really like choirs and good old fashioned hymns The moment I hear an acoustic guitar and an excited service trying to 'connect' to me I'm gone.

Also on people being told not to talk to other people by church leaders, one or two people at university have told me that other christians told them not to talk to me, since I'm a (studying) philosopher and will poison their minds. It made me laugh when I heard it but the more I thought about it the more I wanted to find out who had said it and smack them just for being a retard.

[Rodent]

Since I mentioned earlier in this thread that I was confirmed in the Taizé Monestary this thread would be a partly fitting place to write this, just read that Brother Roger founder of the monestary has been stabbed to death during the tuesday evening service by a romanian woman. As I mentioned before I am not really that much of a beliver theese days but the memories of Taizé and brother Rogers sermons still bring a smile to my face. So he will be my example of what a good christian should be, someone who stands up and makes an effort to bring about peace and understanding.

Pity that he like so many other great men ended up murdered.

[Paelos]

Since I mentioned earlier in this thread that I was confirmed in the Taizé Monestary this thread would be a partly fitting place to write this, just read that Brother Roger founder of the monestary has been stabbed to death during the tuesday evening service by a romanian woman. As I mentioned before I am not really that much of a beliver theese days but the memories of Taizé and brother Rogers sermons still bring a smile to my face. So he will be my example of what a good christian should be, someone who stands up and makes an effort to bring about peace and understanding.

Pity that he like so many other great men ended up murdered.

She stabbed a brother in a church? That's awful and sad. I'm terribly sorry.

[eldaec]

1) Belief in the organization and hierarchy rather than in anything meaningful.
2) All or nothing labelling - you take it all or you aren't really 'one of us'.
3) Excessive focus on what goes on below other people's waists in situations that don't affect anyone else one jot.
4) Assumption that involvement in an 'organised' religion buys a pass that says 'I don't have to justify the way I judge you because it's in line with 'what I believe''.
5) Petty legalist approach to what is written in books that have been retranslated countless times already by people with no real understanding of the original context and often under severe political pressure.

The christian traits that are most important? Not doing any of the 5 things above I guess.