f13.net

From the last 25 years:

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20036782_20037403_20037541,00.html

List and my thoughts ;) Tough to know where to put this. Den if this is the wrong place, but it seemed topical.

25. V (good series for its day)
24. GalaxyQuest (yawn with some good parts imho)
23. Doctor Who (never saw the original, new one seems fun)
22. Quantum Leap (formulaec with some good parts)
21. Futurama (I don't much care for the Simpsons either)
20. Star Wars Clone Wars animated series (seriously, this rocks, and I say that unbiasedly. If the latter movies were 1/10th as good, we'd not worry for the new generation of SW fans)
19. Starship Troopers movie (could this have sucked any worse... regardless of how good the book was?)
18. Heroes (yes. I don't care how new the series is, they've just nailed this one bigtime)
17. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind (never saw. No idea this had any sci-fi relevance)
16. Total Recall (formulaec 80s-like movie but fun nonetheless. No way this is better than Heroes though)
15. Firefly/Serenity (no... words... to... describe... love... or the disappointment that was Joss working with a big network instead of someone with more freedoms and lower measures)
14. Children of Men (still need to see. Tops my task list)
13. Terminator/Terminator 2 (definitely. Better than Heroes though?)
12. Back to the Future (heck yea! 80s-like but damned fun)
11. Lost (never got into, but people dig it)
10. Thing (barely remember it)
9. Aliens (the second one, the "James Cameron is the man" awesome one. Love)
8. Star Trek: TNG series (just prior to Best of Both Worlds on through to the end. Awesome. Sorta acceptably sucked prior)
7. E.T. (from the lense of jaded adult hard to remember the original impact, but I think I loved this alot at the time).
6. Brazil (number 3 of my task list)
5. Star Trek II: Wrath of Kahn (holycraprobotjesussoaponropeyea!)
4. X-Files (makes sense. Mainstream sci-fi ftw)
3. Blade Runner (absolute)
2. Battlestar Galactica (the new one. Until just after the New Caprica rescue: hellyea! After: judgement's still out)
1. The Matrix (tough call as number one from the lens of the suck of the followups. But this was a big surprise at the time, and still holds up well.

Overall, it's hard to review 25 years of sci-fi when so much about media and society and myself as a person have changed. 25 years ago I was barely outta grammar school, drawing pictures of the ships I'd see in these movies/shows. Nowadays I can't be bothered with "Sci-Fi" unless it's got awesome writing and is actually trying to be something more than contemporary lifestyles and issues in a futuristic setting.

Oh, and I buy their justification for not including the good Star Wars trilogy, but I think they should have just extended it to 30 to include them :)

There's some stuff that didn't make the list because it wasn't popular enough to last, but was better Sci-Fi. (John Doe)  I suppose that's acceptable to me.

Skipping B5, and putting Galaxy Quest on instead shows what type of 'fan' made the list, however, so it's just wrong.   :-D

Oh, and E.T. sucks.  I didn't enjoy it as a kid, I don't enjoy it now. It's on there for the same reason as Starship Troopers.  Popular, sure, but not good. (And I don't say that because I think the movie sucked. It's my guilty-pleasure movie.  I have a very large soft-spot for it, but wouldn't call one of the best 25 of the last 25 years.)

E.T. was fine, it was just a kids movie.  Shouldn't be on a top sci-fi list though.  You might as well put The Explorers up there.

Babalon5 was really only good for 3 seasons, and I hated every single tv movie.

Eternal Sunshine and Children of Men are kind of a stretch for this list.  Children just follows an alternate, dystopian timeline, and Eternal Sunshine just uses technology as a plot device.

X-Files at #4?  Really?

Where the fuck is Empire or GitS or even Robocop?

I will say this just once: Galaxy Quest was 10 types of fucking awesome from front to back. Like the original Scream, it managed to both parody AND be a well-done example of a genre at the same time.

That's not fucking easy. Hell, 90% of any movies in any genre suck, and 90% of parodies suck. So having it be a good sci-fi film and a good sci-fi film parody at the same time was just six kinds of awesome.

All it missed was Wil Wheaton in the audience screaming at the grown-up child actor "GET OFF THE STAGE! KIDS DON'T BELONG ON STARSHIPS!" and it would have been six kinds of pure-minted gold.

It's not my favorite movie of all time, but it's damn good. As for the rest -- the hard part in making this lists is determining what you mean by "Top". Best? That's going to change -- shit that was awesome and groundbreaking 25 years ago is hackneyed and formulaic now (because everyone copied it). Some stuff wasn't all that great, but inspired much better films later. And it all ebbs and flows over time.

If I was making a list of 'favorite Sci-Fi shows/movies over the last 25 years' it wouldn't look at all like that. If I was going for one of influential and groundbreaking films + some of my favs, it'd look a lot more like that list. If I was going for 'best', another list entirely,

Books are the same way. You know why Terry Brook's absolutely craptastic Shannara trilogy keeps hitting the "Fantasy Novels" list? Because Tolkein invented the genre, but Brook's badly-concealed knock-off kicked it into motion. We have good fantasy now because Brooks wrote mediocre knock-offs cribbed off of Tolkein then. 

B5 should be on that list -- not for the show, but for the fact that it made long and complex story-arcs a possibility. X-Files is only on that list for the first three seasons, and should be a hell of a lot lower. It shouldn't be on the list period if you admit the existance of seasons 4 through whatever. :)

Blah.

Firefly/Serentiy?  huh?  It was alright,  had some potential.  Large amounts of poor execution, not to mention some pretty blatant cribbing from other series.

I like BSG.  But no way is it going to hold anywhere near that spot.  Give it 5 years,  and the holes and gaps in the plot really will start to erode the good will.

I've watched about 3 episodes of Heroes.  I'm sure it's a decent show, but...  after 1 year it makes it onto the list?

Total Recall and Starship Troopers are funny, farcical, and have a surprising amout of satire built in (Troopers changed the book to basically being a satire on militarism/fascism,  complete with Doogie Hauser showing up in jackboots, gray uniform, and long coat;  the brillance in Total Recall was the background junk.... it felt and looked like a place some time in the future, rather then slightly redressed generic 20th century).  Robocop does the same thing,  but better.

The Thing deserves the place.  It's the ONLY film or tv show that's come close to capturing the vibe of Lovecraft and the wierd/cosmic horror crowd.

There's a bunch of things on the list you pretty much have to put on there:  TNG, Dr. Who (carried the sci fi torch for almost 30 seasons counting old and new?  The old had cheesy effects, but I loved it.), Xfiles, etc.

Some of the list is just off in left field:  V?  I rewatched the original mini in college.  Not very good.  Eternal Sunshine and Company of Men?  Men had some buzz, but....  sorta going out on a limb with that.

Things that are missing?

Farscape and Babylon 5 aren't there,  which is big.  I'm not a huge Babylon 5 fan (thought it was pretty cheesy in parts), but it gets A+ in what it tried to do. 

Farscape just had more WTF moments then any other show.  This is also the show that Joss seemed to crib from (insane character fleeing from miliary superpower that might not be all bad, due to the knowledge they have?  Have to hang out doing odd jobs in the frontier area of space?)

TNG gets a nod,  no love for Stargate?  I'm not a big Stargate fan,  but they lasted 10 seasons.  That says something. 

I don't deny the awesomeness of GQ.. I just don't think it was exceptional Sci-Fi in its own right s'all.  It was popular and well-known, however, so it got on there.  Ditto for ET.

I can't believe I missed Farscape not even being on there. Yeah, that's huge too.

That list is crap. It leans more towards a list of campy sci-fi than it does hardcore sci-fi.

Ahem.

Battlestar Galactica, once again, isn't sci-fi - it's a political drama. Just because something is in space and they make a whole lot of shit up doesn't make it fucking sci-fi.

By putting that and The Matrix at the top of the list, you can tell this thing was written by a kid with braces.

Edit: I would have probably put Brazil at the top of the list. Maybe even Heroes actually. Also, I think at #25 I would have put Event Horizon, I feel compelled that it should BE on the list for some reason. Also, did I not see Jurassic Park?

You did not see JP, which IS good Sci-Fi in the old school sense; a story that deals with issues via devices.  The issues & the moral struggle ARE the character, moreso than the bodies playing it out.

I don't remember Event Horizon well enough to see that it dealt with issues more than, "It's a bad idea to open a gateway to hell."

Event Horizon really seemed closer to fantasy horror in a Sci-Fi setting. But then that's a pretty complicated genre...

Also I really would have put Dr. Who higher, but then every geek has their pet series.

Empire wasn't there because, per their reasoning, it happened prior to 25 years ago (yea, we're that old). They paid homage to it in their credit for the CN series (which, again, does rock).

What is GitS?

Robocop, yea, I agree that should have been on there. I'd have replaced Starship Troopers with it.

And the reason I'm down on the Troopers movie is two fold: one, because of Robocop. If Paul could have maintained the gritty dark comedy of Robocop, and not made the rest of the movie look like a themepark, it coulda been awesome. All the pieces were there. It just looked too tame, particularly compared to the books. I understand required departure from novel of course, but there's LoTR departure and then there's Troopers departure.

I never got into Babylon 5 but do understand the fanbase. But this list seemed to largely be based on mass relevance.

It's like "I'll be back" or "you made a time machine, out of a DeLoreon?!" or bullet-time cinematography. Each of these seems to have inserted something into pop culture that even non-sci-fi fans could grab hold of. As good as other sci-fi like B5, Farscape, or Event Horizon* may have been to many, they didn't do anything for anyone except fans of sci-fi, at least maybe according to those who authored the list.

* I didn't like EH. It felt like what so often happens to generic-IP sci-fi: we can't sell it unless we also make you scare of it.

GitS is Ghost in the Shell.

It's not very good sci-fi. It's pretty much just very shiny anime.

I like the Matrix.  I even think it's good scifi.  The problem is the two sequals,  which degraded the revolutionary bits of the original.


The list is a mass popularity list,  leavened by a few of the individuals who came up with it's favorites.  If you composed a list based on the innovations?

Babylon 5 taught us that you could serialize a story,  and people would watch it.  You could do grand scale storytelling.

Farscape really broke a shit ton of the rules about what was allowed on TV.  They were the first (to my knowledge) to use fake words exactly like and in the same context as shit and fuck.  They threw bizarre costumes and muppets at you so you wouldn't pay attention to how far they pushed into moral gray areas.  To a large extent, this is the forerunner for character based sci fi we see now.

Jurassic Park is good scifi in the Asimov/Clark vein:  give an advanced technology that allows some incredible feat,  then run your characters along a careful plot track to make the viewer question "just because we can do something,  does that mean it's right to do?"

Both Event Horizon and Pitch Black were good thriller/horror movies,  but they're more scifi as setting and not scifi movies.

Hey hey, if Battlestar Galactica and Galaxy Quest can be on the list, so can Event Horizon. Though I fully agree that it's horror.

Upon reflection, I feel like Taken should be on the list.

(http://www.scifi.com/taken/images/taken_splashNEW.jpg)

Squeeee.

What, no Dark City?

Insert obligatory rant about how Episode 3 was certainly better than fucking V and should be on there somewhere.

That aside, I never understood all the love for the Clone Wars cartoons.  I mean, they're like three minutes long.  I tried watching some of them.  It was like...

And now, this week's Clone Wars...
*pew pew*
*whoosh*
"Hey Obi-Wan!"
*ka-blam*
Thanks for tuning in, be here next week!

What the fuck?  I went out of my way to sit down for this?

Episode 3 was better than 5?

I wonder which Episode 3 I watched.

I liked Ep3, but surely you mean better than Ep6 (Jedi)?

And I liked SST. One of the best 25? Maybe for me, since I don't really watch a lot of sci-fi, and i liked the OTT elements. Nothing like the book, of course though..

Schild, would you mind explaining to me exactly what makes a movie Sci-fi, under your deffinition?

The biggest thing sci-fi needs, for me at least, to be called Sci-Fi is that the main premise of anything a story or setting is doing is a possible alternate future the world could exist in. That's to say, Brazil may very well be the best sci-fi ever laid on film. Star Trek: TNG also had many neat ideas with things based on our current understanding of physics and space.

Also, the bulk of the story has to be wrapped up in that concept - that it is, a piece of science fiction. Hence the reason I don't label BSG as sci-fi. It's very much a political drama.

I mention BSG here only because I have to assume you're referring to my previous post.

Galaxy Quest, while hilarious, is parody. It's more like the alternate timeline of an alternate timeline in a sci-fi show if the god of whatever world that was happened to be a clown. Man, that's a rough sentence. Anyway, it's sciency alright. And fictional. But it's not sci-fi, it's pure parody, 100%.

Event Horizon is horror. I just felt the need to include it because of the other things that made that list that shouldn't have.

Taken, however, is a very nice state-of-the-union Aliens living Among us look at things. And more entertaining than ET in every way. Also, it happens to nail the alternate reality thing pretty damn well.

Now I haven't seen Taken, but I'm going to assume it's a show about people being abducted by aliens.  At what point does it become about science and not the aliens?  Because aliens fall more under Fantasy than Sci-Fi in my mind.

It's not about being abducted by aliens at all. You lived with me for 2 years and you've known me for 4 prior to that. The DVD has been sitting on my shelf since release. It's an amazing series.

You have no one to blame but yourself for not picking it up. I mean, you did sit through over 100 hours of Highlander.

Edit: Trying to explain Taken would absolutely spoil it btw.

I'm pretty sure WUA meant the television series "V" and not Empire Strikes Back.  I'm inclined to agree with him, V was a silly soap opera wrapped in alien invasion clothing.

I'm not surprised that The 13th Floor didn't make the list, since almost nobody saw that movie, but I am surprised Dark City isn't on there.  Is it too much noir without enough science?  Regardless, it was plenty of awesome.

Also, I think Minority Report belongs in that list.

That makes more sense. V was boring.

Ghost in the Shell shares mostly the same plot as Neuromancer (which borrowed from Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep).  It certainly is good Sci-Fi.  Actually, it's iconic Sci-Fi, as in one of the best, most recognizable stories in Sci-Fi dom that asks a question that may become very pertinent sometime in the near future.

That list sucks.

I have a DVD of They Live on my coffee table right now.

I'm here to kick ass and chew bubble-gum.  I'm all out of bubble-gum.

Lists suck.

Grats on 2000 posts.

There is no Fifth Element on that list, and Matrix is higher than Bladerunner. pshaw.

I would have definitely put Robocop on the list as opposed to Total Recall.....but I loved the movie growing up, whereas Total Recall was a bit meh for me, even back then.  Either way, while I did enjoy Total Recall all the same, if it was on the list, it wouldn't be that high up.  But the priorities of where they put stuff on that list seems all weird. 

Yea, somebody somewhere else mentioned 12 Monkeys which made me think of Bruce Willis which then let to Fifth Element. I loved that movie, but given this list I can kinda understand it's absence. Aside from the tech being used in the movie, it was a fairly standard reluctant-hero plot with a lot of support roles to add comedy and definition of that time-period.

This is sorta the problem I have with sci-fi as it appears on TV and movies. It's generally a story that could be told without the whiz-bang technology, with a bunch of people who think and act exactly the same way they would in contemporary time.

True sci-fi to me involves a society that has been fundamentally changed in the future in much the same way the world today is full of people very affected by the tech that didn't exist thousands of years prior. Yes, it's debatable how far humanity has come even now, but nobody can deny the impact on public discourse and attitude (and methods of control) all this tech has had on us. And all this stuff is merely a generation or two old.

I don't know what qualifies for "high science fiction." Maybe there's a list? I only go by whether I feel the protagonists and plot of a story are intrinsically tied to something current humanity doesn't have, as a window into their differences. The Reality Dysfunction series from Peter K Hamilton is a good one for that in my opinion. Society then is very different. It starts to weaken when the Neutronium Alchemist books come in. And man what a cop-out with Naked God. But kudos for starting strong. A better one to me is Dan Simmons' series that begins with Endymion. I don't think it ever gets weak, and they cover just about everything one could cover in sci-fi.

Ultimately, this is why I don't consider Star Wars "sci fi" in that sense. Typical story told with lightsabers and droids. I hear I'm not alone there either ;)

Um...Gattaca?

2001, 2010, and / or Logan's Run?

2001 & Logan's Run are more than 25 years old. 2010.. eh maybe. I was a little underwhelmed by it.

Darniaq's earlier explanation about "Sci-Fi  that contributed to Pop-Culture" works well, and explains some of the bigger omissions.  While they were definitely superior Sci-Fi they were "geek-only" and your huddled masses wouldn't get the references.

bah, my reading comprehention sucks.  Somehow managed to miss the "last 25 years" bit

Oh it unmistakedly is, but given some of the works listed, in my head i can quite easily substitute it for a few on that list. ET, Lost (come on now...) and Futurama come to mind. This is without mentioning some of the films people have brought up so far; Gattaca, Dark City, etc... nevermind the fact that as you rightly mentioned, 12 Monkeys should probably take the place of Fifth Element, as far as Bruce Willis mania goes.

Just goes to show that the haute couture of geekdom is getting progessively worse. Grrr.. ><

What he said.  Piss on my beloved Sith if you must, but don't deride it and then turn around and, in the same breath, tell me that Marc Singer fighting lizard people was awesome.

And fuck Starship Troopers too.  Yeah Verhoeven, I "get" what you were doing.  I just thought it sucked.

They Live (Also a Carpenter film) really should be on that list. (Like one up from The Thing.)

A few thoughts before reading the thread - Galaxy Quest should be higher, Children of Men should be lower (hated the last quarter - ruined a great movie), Lost is too high (as are it's writers), I'd flip 1 and 3, suprised to not see Minority Report. Big love for seeing Brazil up there. 12 Monkeys is missing.

Yea, and after reading the thread I missed some obvious omissions like Farscape. I'd probably also bump B5 in there. If you are going to throw anime in to the mix, where's Akira? Or hell, even Beebop.

Quoted for truth.

My take:


On crack.


SERIOUSLY ON CRACK. While it was better than the current crop of SW movies, so was my morning bowel movement. As in, I shit better story than any Star Wars delivered since Empire.


Better than Doctor Who? WHAT THE FUCK? While it was fun, this movie was not better than any Doctor Who episode ever, special effects included.


Fuck yeah, should be higher.


NOT FUCKING SCIENCE FICTION. More like existential angst, with science as a plot device. What a bunch of retards. Yes, the movie was decent but better than Heroes? Fuck no.


Should be much much higher.


A comedy with science fiction as the plot device. Shouldn't be on this list. It's a goofy, heavy-handed sappy movie that is vastly overrated.


No, goddamnit. Trek fans need to die of a wasting crotchrot disease. Fuck a Trek fan. The first series and DS9 were the only things ever worth watching more than once. TNG's milquetoast PC correctness bullshit needs to explode in a fiery ball. If you have to put a Sci-fi series on this list, PUT BABYLON 5 you fuckwads.


Sappy, gut-wrenching alien drama. Fuck an E.T.


Should be lower than Serenity/Firefly, because the last 5 seasons SUCKED MONKEY ASS.


Not after this last season.


Oh FUCK no. No. NO NO NO. Even if I could wash the stench of the last two movies away, it does not deserve to be above Heroes, Babylon 5, Serenity, Blade Runner, or other movies on a list of this type. And you can't dissociate the last two movies from it anyway, because it leads into them. The Matrix Trilogy was fucking awful. It only goes down as being better than the worst of the worst because of how good the first movie was, but it in no fucking way is worth #1 on a list of this type.

Fuck assclowns.

Can someone please clue me in on what was so brilliant about Brazil? I hated it so much that I avoid anything involving Terry Gilliam like the fucking plague.

How old and jaded were you when you watched it?  My first viewing I was 18 and didn't like it at all.  My second viewing I was 25 and I got into it a lot more. I imagine after 8 more years of real-life beat-down I'd find it even more relevant and interesting.

It has been quite a long time since I saw it...at least 10 years. I just can't remember anything that would make me want to give it another go.

Watch it again. You have to be really fucking cynical. There's a number of things about Brazil that are the awesome and a number have to do with when it was done.

It's over 2 hours long, which at the time was unheard of. Gilliam and the studio had many fights over its release.

It's like the Wall, only without the music and a more coherent story.

Robert Deniro. He was fucking awesome in this.

Dystopian future mixed with Gilliam's hallucinatory vision. In the 80's on a shitty budget no less, and without CGI.

It was the 80's Clockwork Orange.

I'd watch it again and if you still hate it, fair enough.

Which version of Brazil did you watch?  There's three or so and it makes a big difference in which you see.

Fuck John Doe. It was boring retread generic action/detective shit that didn't even have a veneer of sci-fi on it unless they added it halfway through the show's run. The sci-fi part was what, he saw in black and white and had no memory? Moonlighting was more sci-fi and it was at least watchable.

And to compound it's sins, it's the show Fox cancelled Firefly to put on.

Let's be honest. Even the "Love Conquers All" version is better than half the shit on that list. And it's only 90 minutes long and missing a decent deal of shit. :P

I like brazil but thats deffinatly a movie you have to watch when  you are in the mood for it. If you watch that when you are not ready to just sit back and absorb it you will probably walk away confused and or disliking it.

Fair point, Schild.

The long version with the (more) depressing ending is the one that it should be judged by.

Well yea, but it doesn't mean other versions are bad.

It's a pretty good list. Some should be higher up than others.

But it definitely is missing a few..

The Abyss - Probably one of the best Sci-Fi movies (even though it's under the ocean) ever.

Heavy Metal - This goes without saying

Close Encounters of the Third Kind - I always remember Dreyfuss making Devil's Tower out of his mash potatoes. I still do this to this day.


Edit: Damn Heavy Metal came out in 1981 and CE3k came out in 1977. Oh well.

I watched the director's cut of this and all of the commentary\documentaries throughout it based on the original theatrical version (a friend in college was a major freak for this movie and loaned me his copy) and all I have to say is, damn.  While he gives us crap like Titanic, James Cameron can really turn out an interesting movie.

I hated most of the list.  It takes a really special "sci-fi" setting for me to get into it, and most of that list just ain't got it.

I thought Brazil stunk.

But I don't expect it to be a popular view.

Duh, forgot The Abyss too. I'd guess it didn't make the list because the lobotomized version that made it to theatres. The ending was just terrible, way at odds with the movie.

Going to rent Brazil. Never saw it. Fresh eyes and all.

I don't like the arbitrary 25 year cut off date; too many good films were made in the 70s that would kick namby pamby flicks like "Children of Men" off the list.

I didn't find anything "namby pamby" about Children of Men.

Step 1:
Watch Get a Life with Chris Elliot.
Step 2:
Watch the Abyss
Step 3:
Cry/Laugh at his scenes in the movie.

Show Syd the fugee face.  Sad face.  Sad fugee face.

Actually, I thought it wasn't namby pamby enough.

I enjoyed the movie right up until they decided that it needed a big ACTION MOVIE! ending. The entire sequence in the prison town felt like I was watching someone play Counterstrike, and really just ruined the movie for me.

The first three quarters of the movie had a good solid balance between story, character development, and action. The last quarter threw that balance out the window.

I really don't know why this movie disappointed me so much. I think it was mainly a case of overhyped expectations. It was not the Sci-fi Robot Jesus I was expecting it to be. It wasn't the Second Coming of Blade Runner.

You can read the book, which is MUCH happier.

Children of men was a decent movie, but agreed -- that list needs some work.

What is this Children of Men?  I immediately picture Steve Guttenburg, and Tom Selleck every time I hear the name, so I know nothing of it.

As for the list

Farscape
Dune(the '84 full length version)
Twilight Zone/Outer Limits series - Not as good as the originals, but still good
700 Club
12 Monkeys

I'd also put Serial Experiments: Lain, and GitS on there as well, personally.

That's a very disturbing 'Dead Baby In The Uterus' avatar you've got there.
 :|

I didn't like Brazil either.  Couldn't finish it.

And I did't really enjoy Children of Men that much either, probably owing to how much Schild talked it up.  I think I just don't like Clive Owen?

Hey, Phil, go read teh Wii Q&A session for FF4 news. /derail

I didn't like Brazil all that much either, but it is better sci-fi than most of the original crappy list.

Dune would have been a great movie, if it didn't:

1) expose every stray thought of every character throughout the movie
2) have giant vagina-mouth brain slugs with teeny appendages
3) have the duke carry around that little fucking dog

Strangely, I hate the dog most of all.  How was he supposed to come off as regal carrying that thing under his arm?  Whoever made that call needs to never work in movies again.

I kinda liked the dog...made me hate that floating bloated turd even more.

Giant Worms though that was cool.

All I remember of Dune is a white haze of pain, and Sting in some crazy armor screaming "I WILL KILL HIM!"  If I think about it too hard, my nose bleeds.

I agree with most of the people here.. a lot of that stuff isn't even scifi. Scifi is Foundation, the Ender Saga, Dune, Ringworld.. not Star Wars, that clownshoes Starship Toopers movie, or really even BSG. I'm not even sure if Firefly would qualify. That's not to say I don't like non-scifi, but come on. Spaceships and lazers don't make it scifi.

That depends on your definition of 'sci-fi' ;)

Anyway, the list needs some anime - LoGH or Voices of a Distant Star or something...or even the usual cliched Akira/Evangelion/GitS.

Honestly. And I'm just throwing this out there. I'd ALMOST be willing to allow Higurashi on the list. Probably Porco Rosso as well.

Granted, they were both pretty untraditional sci-fi, I'd still classify them - or at least parts of them - as sci-fi.

I think it's important to make a distinction between the setting and the genre of media. Just as MMORPG is not a genre, scifi is not a setting - it's the use of a premise (high technology) to discuss or expound upon social issues. Most of what people would call scifi I would call fantasy, because it uses high technology for escapism rather than as a lever for commentary.

And yeah, Ghost in the Shell and Evangelion probably belong on there. Eva might be a bit tenuous as 'Top 25' material but it's close if not there.

Yes, but that's because you're being an art-school snob. Sci-fi includes pulp space opera because its the masses that get to define genre labels, not indignant fans of serious science fiction. If there were any justice, we'd be discussing the top 25 science fiction novels rather than which half dozen mainstream TV series or movies ought to top an idiotic and ill considered list. But there ain't. TANJ.

Ghost in the Shell doesn't f'ing belong on any lists. Except for Most Overrated. And what's funny is it's usually the elitist (as in the MOST elite, rather than folks who are simply elitist) of the snobs who talk about it like it's good.

Fucking style over substance. Ghost in the Shell is Bruckheimer with a thesaurus.

So, what you are saying is that you're not elite?

Completely not.

Oh noes, I must be elitist because I find part of GitS to be pretty interesting.

GitS is a great movie.  Period.

GitS is a great LOOKING movie, much like Final Fantasy Spirits Within.

Here's the thing, like, in a vacuum, none of GitS is really "bad" per se. But when you look at other anime - including sci-fi anime - and other anime movies, it just doesn't stand up. At all. And I'm pretty damn forgiving when it comes to anime. I bought the Love Hina Perfect Collection. Hell, I have the BoogiePop Phantom limited box set.

I've actually only seen the original movie once. I saw Innocence as well. I was mainly referring to SAC.

That definition is far too narrow. Sci-fi has to be allegorical?

Dune is only about social issues in a very loose sense. The same is true of the three rules of robotics books. There are tons and tons of great science fiction short stories that have nothing to do with social issues.

That is very much your pet definition.

Pew pew lasers is sci-fi. You may not like it, but it is sci-fi. Lensman anyone? You are going to seriously claim that the Lensman books are not sci-fi?

Personally, I don't like 99% of anime, but that's just me.  Lodoss War, GitS (tv shows, movies), ninja scroll, princess mononoke, cowboy beebop, fullmetal alchemist, etc is the type of stuff I've found enjoyable.  I can't get into stuff like Naruto or Bleach.

But I like GitS beyond just the art.  It might not be the bestest story ever, but I found it solid, interesting, and overall extremely well executed.  I loved every bit of it, from the music to the introspective moments to the action sequences.  In comparison, I've found lots of other "shiny" anime completely unwatchable.  Spirits Within stunk.  I thought Advent Children was incomprehensible and unwatchable.  Evangelion became a complete mess with seemingly random biblical references thrown in to make it seem deep.  I don't even like FLCL, despite really enjoying the artistic style.

There was a reason why I included GitS with Eva & Akira in the 'cliched' part. I like all three, but I'm not a 'ZOMG best anime ever' fan of them.

(Now Utena, OTOH....)

Anyway, thinking about it, I'd rather see either Haruhi or Nanoha in the list; Haruhi could quite easily have been based on a 50's or early 60's era sci-fi story or a Twilight Zone episode or something similar (Spoiler)Teenaged girl has the power of God; and a time-traveller, a psychic and a manifestation of a transdimensional group of AIs try to observe & potentially manipulate her  (End Spoiler), and the 'magic' in Nanoha looks suspiciously like "sufficiently advanced technology" to me.

Derail, but from the sound of it, you should give Black Lagoon a shot if you haven't already.

Thanks, I'll try to check it out.

The only thing that puts me to sleep faster than sci-fi anime is the intro theme song to MASH. Almost all of it is boring, overly cerebral, and dialogue heavy. Just not my kind of storytelling really.

Besides stuff like that, there's giant robots. Which can be OK and all, but I can only take so much. Also, many robot animes are just repeating the problems I mentioned above as well.


I would, however, say that Arcadia of My Youth is the shit. Captain Harlock, while dated, is still good.

Fist of the North Star could be considered sci-fi (in the Mad Max, post apocalyptic sense), and that's pretty much some of the best anime ever.

I'd also recommend Spriggan.

Suicide is painless,
it brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please

Is he asleep yet?

Good now we can all rag on him for saying Sci-Fi Anime puts him to sleep and then going on for a paragraph about how much he likes Sci-Fi Anime.

You might even say he, strayed, off course...

I mentioned one sci-fi anime (Harlock). The other two are a stretch. That I even suggest them should illustrate the low opinion I have of science fiction in that medium.

[EDIT]

Goin' to sleep now btw ;)

Well whatever, I'm not going to attempt to force my definition of scifi upon the masses. I think space opera falls pretty solidly under the category of fantasy though.

Oh, space opera is no doubt fantasy. But space opera isn't an all encompassing genre the way sci-fi is. Which is to say, I *think* it would be possible to be both.

Escaflowne was great sci-fi anime. Seriously. More people should like Escaflowne. So was LoGH if you can find watceable, subbed copies of all 9 million episodes. ***** of the Stars were generally good too. Strange Days was good Sci fi as well I thought.

Your taste sound similar to mine.

Things like Naruto and Bleach are very formulaic, and also very slow. I would like them if they were paced about 5 times faster maybe. They come from a long line of "hero levels up, learns special moves that he has to yell out the name for, etc etc" style Anime. I wonder where that stuff started. Dragonball is the oldest one that I'm aware of but I don't know much about it overall.

I think that whole spiel goes even deeper than Anime and into Japanese Myths and legends, Murgos.  Kind of like how in Eurocentric myths the solo hero who is tutored by the old man who gets killed always pops up. 

That was Margalis.  But, if it matters, I agree completely.

Though, the boy taught by the master who then has to avenge his masters death is very common in oriental themes too.  I do know that in some classic Japanese tales they do follow that wandering sort of path where the tale seems to be what's important, not that they get anywhere or accomplish anything.  The Tale of Gengi for example.

That particular formula is probably the greatest guilty pleasure for me, but I don't know the history behind it either. One of the common threads (though it isn't completed limited to it) is that most of those stories come from the same comic publishing house (Shonen Jump). And it isn't all fantasy or martial arts either. Slam Dunk and Prince of Tennis contain some of the same storytelling elements, except they apply it to sports. Other series, like Initial D (not a Jump series though) are about street racing, and apply the formula to cars somewhat. There's also "Beck: Mongolian Chop Squad", which is about a kid who wants to make the "greatest rock band", and all the obstacles he has to face along the way.

Another thing: Most of the time, character progress isn't really about learning "special moves" so much as it is about perseverance. Naruto has such a strong determination to "become the Hokage" that he never gives up a fight. Ichigo from Bleach is obsessed with protecting friends and family, and in turn, always manages to muster enough energy to get up and kick ass again. No matter what the theme or motivation is, all the protagonists in these different cartoons have a completely unshakable, superhuman-like will. Maybe there's something in Japanese culture to explain that, but I doubt it (I mean, having a strong will is probably a treasured virtue no matter where you go).

Besides that, all opponents/protagonists/enemies have a gimmick power that must be figured out and overcome. I don't think that's really anime specific though. One could say that the same formula has been used in action movies for a long time. At least since James Bond.

[EDIT] Heh. Sorry for being a bit longwinded there. Didn't realize how long it was until I finished it.

Can we return from your various Asian fetishes to Science Ficion movies again?

Saw Sunshine yesterday. That was damn good Science Fiction, and completely out of the left field. Suspected a Popcorn Flick and was very positively surprised.

Is it an Asian Fetish if you're actually Asian?  =|


Anyways, if something was to top my list, then I guess it'd be Aliens. The Road Warrior is off by one year (1981), but that'd be my favorite sci-fi film ever.

Runners up: Blade Runner, The Terminator, Total Recall, the Thing, Spaceballs, and *ahem* the Matrix (only the first one, of course). TV show wise, there's DS9, Futurama, and the X-Files.


Pretty standard choices, I guess. I think the only unconventional sci-fi film that'd make a top 25 for me would be the Re-Animator (speaking of that, I need a new avatar....). There was also this little Kyle McLachlan flick called the "Hidden" (kind of a Terminator meets the Thing deal) -- B movie for sure, but for the first 15 minutes alone, it's some pretty funny shit.

Guys, the best spin on the "hero levels up, yells some bullshit" is Yakitate Japan! Also, if you want a series that Doesn't do that for the most part, and is more memorable - watch Hunter X Hunter. Neither of these shows have been licensed, go grab the fansubs or pirated "import" dvds (ya know, hong kong/taiwanese crap) and enjoy them. They're both very easily in my top 10.

/...derail

And speaking of Kyle McLachlan. What would Twin Peaks fall under? Sure, it's mystery, but that whole little place is like a world in a bottle. Fantasy maybe? You gotta admit, it gets really fucked up. Calling it sci-fi is questionable though...

That's hard to say. Twin Peaks, as well as Mullholland Dr. and Lost Highway are all kind of unclassifiable.

Though if I were to file them by generic Video Store standards, I'd just say Drama.

/shrug

That probably doesn't cut it either.


[EDIT]

I forgot to put Buck Rogers on my list.

Seriously, I love that shit. If there was ever show needing a remake (which, I guess, would be the third time?), then that would be it. There's just too much serious sci-fi out there. We need more intergalactic disco space pimps -- with intergalactic disco space whores. And penis shaped robots.

Twin Peaks is surrealist drama I guess...

This is a good list, because none of the new Star Wars movies are on it. Well, the Matrix is on there but I can forgive that.

If we wanna include anything that has remotely sci-fi elements I'd have to stay that Back to the Future 1/2 belong on there for sure.

I resisted the Matrix when it came out. Then after I watched it, I tried to play it off like it wasn't all that.

But really, I was lying. It's just a cool story all around, in a world with characters I wanted to see more and more of.

It's just too bad that everything about the sequels never delivered. Just complete trash really (except Belucci).

About Dune, the SciFi Channel miniseries version, which is on DVD in various places, is much better than the David Lynch version.

"Bede bede bede - What a body Buck."

Definitely.

I just wish the two could be merged somehow though. Some of the cast was better in the first version. The costumes (especially the stillsuits) and general Lynch green ooze Harkonnen styling was superior than the Sci-Fi version as well.

The Sci-Fi version had it where it counts the most though. The story. It also had the Leto sequels (and the guy who played him was great, I thought).


The original's story was so bad that Lynch himself tried to Smithee it. He shot it to be a long epic (up to 4 hours), but the studio cut it in half. Apparently, the footage still exists, but I doubt he even cares to make a director's cut at this point.

No - he only Smithee'd the 3 hour extended version that made a lot more sense because he disliked the introduction. The four hour version that is probably the best, is still in a vault or in his head. I see the 2 hour version is out on HD-DVD...

The Sci-Fi version of Dune was shot on a pretty limited budget -- you could tell. Their Children of Dune had a higher budget, and the guy playing Leto was pretty damn awesome. I actually picked Children of Dune on DVD.

Yeah, but I think they made do as best as they could with that budget. Instead of getting a typical film crew, they got a lot of people used to working on stages and plays. So while some parts looked kind of fake, I think they had a certain charm to them. And the lighting in all of those scenes was above and beyond what the typical filmmaker would do.



Ah. My bad. I thought he was upset with the original too.

Thanks, I just hit 100 days also.

Heh. That's funny. I've got an obscene amount of posts, but I'm still just under 100 days like you (and sometimes I stay logged in while sleeping....that's my excuse!).


If there's anything that illustrates that I talk too much, then that's it.  :-P

Feh. Newbs.

And I'm not sure if I should be proud :)

I'm scared of my "Time of Post" schedule bar graph. Eventually that thing will probably equalize. Go go 4am!

I thought I had a problem at 38 days, glad to know I'm not quite as dysfunctional as the rest of you.

I'm only at 56 days, with an average of 11.21 posts per day.

60 days, about 10/per.

Awful, awful list.  Sad thing is it's probably quite a good reflection of most of the "sci-fi" dross that's come out over the last 25 years.

If Children of Men made the list then so should Primer and Cypher - difference being no-one saw those two.  Can't believe that Twelve Monkeys didn't make the cut, or Gattaca.