f13.net

Den this if this is old news, but Endgadget has a look of the next XBox 360 (http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/05/the-second-xbox-360-revealed-codename-zephyr/)

Main differences being :

Cooler 65nm  processor

120GB HD (perhaps as an add on?)

Built in HDMI with 1080p output.


YMMV, I didn't write the article, yadda yadda yadda.

Squirrel mentioned it in the PS3 thread, but maybe this shouldn't be denned.

I'll just state the same thing I said there: All of those features are good. The hard drive especially, if you really want to make use of XBL in the future (both for games, as well as video content).

Mainly good for new adopters though, not for current owners. Whether it's true or not, it's the kind of thing I expect from Microsoft, and why I think they're bad for the console industry. Heaven help us if they ever become number one.

The other rumor about there possibly being a built in hddvd in the works? Cool for movies, stupid for games. In fact, zilch for games. No dev would program for it. Those kind of features need to be on all models of the console from the get go. Like the PS3. Case in point: Did you see a big influx of network enabled or hard drive enabled games for the PS2 once they released those additions? No.

True. As I said in the other thread though, the vast majority of games coming are mult-platform. Some, like the  GTA franchise, will take the time to make additional content for the PS3. But most? Nope. Why bother? It's not like the PS3 has the millions of users the PS2 does. And if they do bother to make extra content for the PS3 they can easily release a 360 'enhanced' version. The very issue you describe of 'have' and 'have nots' is going to be just as bad on the PS3 because the days of strictly exclusive titles are over. The vast increase in costs to produce AAA games makes multi-platform releases a necessity.

Within a week of buying my 360. Yay I love getting screwed!

Sounds like a nightmare to me. They would practically have to create entirely different looking boxes in order not to confuse people...I mean, it's virtually a different platform from what most XBox users have.

I'd sooner expect to see 2 or 3 DVD sized games than that.....Which carries it's own problems too.

These rumors probably aren't even true though. Except hard drive upgrades. And for the most part, I expect 360 devs to target the Core system, and only that. Because that's what most people are buying. I just hope that sort of dinkiness doesn't trickle down to PS3 games too much.

Most people are buying the premium 360 actually. I think it's like a 5:1 ratio actually. Microsoft is pretty much only shipping premiums now.

Sorry, I just have anecdotal evidence really. I know a fair share of Haemish's ;). Got any sales numbers to confirm that?

[EDIT]

Besides, most people in general are attracted to whatever's cheaper. Some are still buying XBoxes, PS2's, and GC's. And whatever of these nextgen console versions is cheaper, that's the one these late adopting consumers will eventually go for. Wii, cheaper PS3, Core 360, etc.. Developers will target accordingly. They can't just sacrifice Core users, if that's what will be a legitimate segment of the 360 market.

Sure they can - the Xbox core is by far the minority and it's not like they can't say 'requires Hard Drive' much like todays PC games require certain components. You can add a hard drive to the Core system relatively cheaply you know. Hell I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft encouraged that for additional revenue.

Everything will depend on the PS3 exclusives, if the ones scheduled for 2007 lives up to the hype it WILL surpass both the Wii and 360 in number of installed consoles, and then suddenly it gets intresting to tailor the games for the PS3.

Sorry for the derail, but I don't understand why they didn't do that at launch. Specifically, why the hell did they get Imsomniac to make a shooter? Resistance is cool and all, but I bet a suped up Ratchet and Clank might have done a better job at attracting people, as well as setting itself apart from the already flooded sci-fi shooter genre on the 360. Resistance would have been better for a later release.

Same goes for Sony's NBA game. Give it up. 2K is better. They would have been better off concentrating on something else. I would have rather seen a Mark of Kri sequel than that shit (same studio I think).

On the vehicular front, Motorstorm is going to rock. Too bad it wasn't a launch title. Same might go for Warhawk.

Basically, anything even remotely handled by Sony that's being released later this year should have been launch titles. Getaway 3, White Knight Story, Heavenly Sword, Lair, F106, and the others I mentioned.

One of the reasons I don't have a 360 is that I won't buy the gimped Core version. It's cheaper price is not a selling point, it's a turnoff. I also won't buy a 360 right now because I'm not in the financial position to pay $400 for a console and it's against my religion to pay $400 for a console.

It ain't about cheap, it's about value for the bucks you spend.

For parents and casual types all around the globe, it's all about cheap and it's the main reason the Wii is selling so much.

Oddly enough, that's what tipped me over to the PS3 camp. I'd be paying $700 bucks to get the equivalent on a 360 (and not even equivalent really).

As far as the Wii goes, again, it's cool and all, but "value" it is not. Cut off $100, or even $50, and I'd say fair deal.

Motion sensing already has a foundation on the PS3 anyhow....But with the added benefit of not completely dictating everything.

Motion sensing is a gimmick among gimmicks on the PS3.

It's still too early to tell, but from what I've done with it, it added to the game, rather than hampered it.

So far, it's use has been mild, but welcomed nonetheless. Freethrows in basketball are done with motion sensing. Cool enough. Some sequences in Resistance use it as well. Those sequences are just a bit more immersive for having it.

Point is though, IF they want to release a Wiimote ripoff, they could. They could mimic the best that Nintendo has to offer -- With more shiny. The capability is there just in case, and that's better than not having it at all. Don't be a dick.

...

Motorstorm has it, but I'm finding it very difficult. Holding the gamepad isn't the best means for emulating steering. I'd rather use standard gamepad controls.

The PS3 is very good value if you consider it not only as a game console but also as a Blue Ray Player.

A very reputable german magazine tested all HD-DVD and Blue Ray Players currently available and came to the conclusion that the PS3 is hands down the best Blue Ray player available today and that it trumps competition that is thrice the price.

On a related note they stated that the HD-DVD drive for the X-Box 360 would make it the best HD-DVD player available  if it weren't for the lack of HDMI and the noise both of which should be eliminated with the new edition.

So a 600 Euro game console from microsoft (400 + 200 for the HD-DVD) is a better player than Toshiba and Samsung players that cost Eur 1000 to 1500 and a 600 Euro game console from sony is a better Blue Ray player than those from other brands that cost Eur 1000-1500.

Both consoles are already heralded by HDTV-nuts as a cheap (with respect to other brands) and good way to get players for the next gen video discs.

I know that that most people don't care about that however but for those looking for a cheap blue ray player and game console there is no better way right now, at least until the other brands lower prices (and severly fix bugs, all the players on the market right now have severe software issues).

Resistance follows a formula for sales that suits can understand.  WWII FPS, cyborg monster enemies, than nifty healthbar from Riddick.  It's fun but seriously, it's like two or three game ideas mashed into one.  I guess it also explains why R&C: Deadlocked was so lame.

This is one of the more retarded things you've said.

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe there's a consumer law in Canada stating that a company can't release the same branded product with significant differences to its original shipped product unless they offer some kind of retrofit to customers who bought the original product. For all you assbags with a wrench up your ass, I said I'm not 100% sure.

Edit: Looking at that picture, it seems off. Where did the clip holes go for the wireless dongle?

I guess that would disqualify the built in hd-dvd then (at least for gaming). I don't think hdmi or extra hdd space would be a problem.


Yeah, I should have just said that. His statement doesn't even make sense.

Actually, he needs to air out his grievances. The console wars must begin here and now (Feel free to premptively den this if you disagree)!!  8-)


Seriously, why would someone say that? I don't understand the hate -- where is it coming from? Why is the possibility of motion sensing a gimmick (but not the full implementation of motion sensing on Nintendo?) -- and why are all of the other features of the Playstation gimmicks on top of that?

Basically, it's just another game console. A piece of hardware no different than the 360 or Wii when it comes down to it. And yet, it's the only one full of gimmicks?

For example, how is built-in Wi-Fi or Bluetooth a gimmick? Wireless internet, on top of more concurrent controls is a gimmick? Or being able to hook up a wireless mouse and keyboard is a gimmick?

How about gigabit ethernet? How is that a gimmick? Or full HD output? Or Blu-Ray playback and storage? Or free online play? Or hard drives equipped standard? Or the ability to read memory cards and memory sticks? Or PSP interactivity? Or the ability to install other OS's (without hacking)? Or the ability to run vertical and horizontal without fucking up? Or the Cell's processing capabilities?

Those things speak of versatility and performance. Not gimmicks.

I'll grant you this though: It's Black Monolith design is gimmicky. The touch sensitive eject and power buttons are gimmicky. And their Spider-Man inspired logo is gimmicky. That you can surf Pr0n in full HD is kind of gimmicky (B3YOND Gaming B3YOTCH!). But that's about it.

Straz pissed in Strays wheaties.

Awesome.


 :roll:

It's all in good fun. No eye rolling please. It hurts.

I don't know about Den, but we've got about 3 topics or so here that have turned into console wars.  It might be easier to have it all thrown into one topic that schild can post in any time he wants to accuse the Wii of being some Keyser Söze-esque dupe Nintendo is perpetrating.

I myself think it's a dupe -- But a pretty good one. Hardware-wise at least. The games are not dupes.

But yeah, consolidating all topics and/or making a general thread would be nice. All I ask is that nobody be a spiteful chump. And don't downplay shit that you wish your preferred console had. Give me a real war. Not your bullshit. Or just give it up entirely. Haha.

As I've said elsewhere, I think the PS3 is a good value for the actual hardware involved.  On the gaming side of things though, I'm not convinced they're going to have the same variety of games they did last gen though.  Developers are going to go where the money is, and it's no so obvious this time around that Sony is going to be where it's at.  They don't have a head start this time and they lost momentum bungling their launch, and with all the bad press leading up to it.  They couldn't lock down games like Assassin's Creed, Virtua Fighter 5, or even long time Sony exclusive series like Armored Core down as PS3 exclusives.  Capcom is getting ready to release its second 360 exclusive. If, God forbid, something ever happened to David Jaffe, my desire to own a PS3 would go from slim to none at this point.  If their first round of exclusives like Motorstorm, Heavenly Sword, and Lair aren't hits, they're pretty much dead in the water until MGS4 releases.

I don't think the Wii is a dupe.  I think Nintendo had the brains to realize that the console market isn't big enough for three consoles to target the same gamers.  I can see why schild at least doesn't get it.  He's about as hardcore a gamer as one can be.  A console aimed at casual gamers who don't buy a double-digit number of games each month must be an anathema to him.  If people are out there playing the thing and enjoying it I'm not sure where the dupe comes in, although I do agree that they probably could have lowered the price by at least $50 and still made a profit of the console sales.

Fuck that. I play the HELL out of casual games. It lets me see that Nintendo didn't have the R&D funds to research an entirely new system so just sold the Cube repackaged with a new accessory. We got duped into buying a $200 Controller and a $50 gamecube. Or even worse, a $200 Gamecube and a $50 controller.

And yet you know the thing is more powerful than a GC (3X is the number I see get kicked around though I don't think any actual specs have ever been revealed) so quit intentionally acting like a dumbass.  It's beneath you, especially when you go on to bring up $50 (http://www.amazon.com/Sony-Playstation-3-Wireless-Controller/dp/B000K1CS5Y/sr=8-1/qid=1168079053/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-8774055-3708053?ie=UTF8&s=videogames) controllers (http://www.ebgames.com/product.asp?product%5Fid=802113).  If the Wii has any problems right now it's that developers with the same short-sightedness as you dismissed it, and they're probably kicking themselves now after seeing the sales numbers.  I'm sure Square right now has to be wondering why they're burning money on two presumably costly FF games for the PS3.

More like an oc'ed Gamecube with wifi and better system software. Coupled with the Wiimote, it seems like a $100 upgrade over the GC at best (which would bring it down to $200, I guess).

Who cares about the hardware stats? If nintendo can attract the game software that engages the social / casual gamer to their platform they might well capture a currently under-served, and potentially substantial, market. So far their plan seems to be working, though the weak launch software is hardly a defining argument.

Likewise the Xbox loses a lot in my eye because it's the penultimate American console. If I wanted drivers, shooters, street life simulators and odd cultural sports games it would be my first choice. But I'm more interested in some of the psychotically odd material the Japanese companies produce and the wii is a tempting target for a lot of that. Especially using the route from scaling DS experiments (stylus == wii pointer to some extent?) upto much larger games.

The PS3 will live or die on how many exclusive, and customised to the HW, titles it can marshal. Good thing they have the Japanese developers onside (read mostly square :)

Seeing as Idolm@ster is a 360 game, Lost Odyssey and Blue Dragon are exclusives, and even Atlus and NISA are thinking about going to the 360 - I must say that I don't understand your penultimate America comment. Just because that Japan is filled with nonsensicle comsumers, doesn't mean you have to be one. Hell, we get Bullet Witch and EDFX. Who woulda thought that would happen. That sort of shit never even hit the PS2.

Actually this is a critical comment in many ways. Blu Ray players are very expensive right now, and the PS3 is not only good value but it's designed to be a phenomenal media machine. For example the underlying cell architecture is not easy to program in a gaming environment due it's low memory and it's requirement to execute linear code in parallel. When devs talk about how the PS3 is hard to code for, it's primarily in reference to this although it's certainly doable.

However, multiple fast processors executing linear in-order instructions is exactly what is required for blazing fast media processing such as decoding hi def video. I own the HD-DVD add-on for my 360 hooked up to a 56" 720p DLP set and I'm very happy with it. But from a little research I know that the 360 is working hard to decode that stream as it's all done in software. The PS3 will eat that stuff alive with cycles to spare. The early negative feedback on Blu Ray is primarily due to the first release titles being encoded with crappy codecs, not any inherent limitation in the format. Strategically, Blu Ray trojan horsing is a huge goal of Sony's with this release.

The question is - and Sony themselves posed it with the "It's not a console, it's a computer" stance - is the PS3 a brilliant media machine with some gaming capabilities or is it the wonder box for your living room? As the owner of a PSP i won't buy potential from Sony, but I do think that the PS3 is a wonderful machine that sacrifices some gaming capability for incredible media potential.

Squirrel: It's a kickass gaming machine. Resistance, and GT Concept are great examples of what's possible with it already -- and one is only a launch a title. The other is a canned title. Even EA shows what's possible with their shinier, more beefed up than 360 version of Fight Night.

Sure it's a Blu-Ray trojan horse, but it's a fine gaming machine too. Geez. For every dev that says it's hard to program for, I could find one that says it's even easier than the PS2 (and look where the PS2 went anyhow), as well as ones being downright stoked about it. First, by virtue of it using open GL (an even easier version of OpenGL than that found on PC's btw), and secondly, because they can interface with the SPE's on a high level via Cg (instead of needing all of the specialized low level skills devs needed for harnessing the PS2's capabilities). For example, this guy (http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/games/archives/2006/01/27/possession_and_the_art_of_ps3_programming.html) explains why.

I think the pissing and moaning is coming from either fanbois (who may also be devs) or incompetent fools such as the ones who made that Sonic game for the 360. Or Microsoft employees (In some cases, that really is what's happening. This is what Microsoft has always done, from the history of Apple to Novell to Linux and now this. They'd try it with the Media Player market too, but everyone knows they flat out suck in that respect).

I understand that there's room for cynicism (as there should be with all investments), but seriously, you can't really believe it isn't a gaming machine on par with the 360, can you? The proof is in the putting. It's every bit as good, as well as more versatile.

I do believe it's a good gaming machine. I remain unconvinced after an admittedly short (3 days) first hand experience with the titles you mention that it's as good as it should be.

I would love to read some of the references you mention that it's easy or powerful to code for, no cynicism, I just haven't seen alot of material with that pov.

As for being on par with the 360, I think it is, but not significantly superior in anyway from a gaming only viewpoint. This is bad. It's brand new, the 360 is a year old. Any new console should show SIGNIFICANT superiority to a year old machine. It doesn't. IGN and Gamespot have both run large feature stories about how cross platform titles on the two are pretty much identical. Obviously this may change, but everything I've read indicates the 360 also has unused potential to exploit. The PS3 should be a clearly superior gaming platform to the 360. It's not - yet. And analysis of the hardware suggests that it may never take a commanding technical lead. Time will tell.

Versatility? No question, it's great. Gaming? Not a clear win, and it should be.

EDIT: Missed that link, interesting but IMO not very technical.

Also, honestly as a long time Apple customer (i'm on my 5th apple laptop and have owned 6+ of their professional desktops) and a long time Microsoft customer I can say that in my experience Sony is worse than the two combined when it comes to making exaggerated claims, unrealistic goals and consumer FUD. I have owned 2 Sony TV's, a Sony Camcorder, a PS1, a PS2, a PSP and a Vaio laptop. I am not a Sony basher. I am realistic about their products now though, and the PS3 should be better than it currently is. Maybe it will be with firmware and better titles. But maybe not.

Fight Night isn't more beefed up though.  What they did was make the boxers look better but at the cost of making the background look a lot worse.

Stray, I didn't even touch the other parts of the PS3. Sorry if you misunderstood or if I misrepresented myself. I was only referring to the stupid "6 Axis" shit that was shoehorned in as a response to Nintendo.

But really, I'm not going to fight with you over a system that has absolutely nothing I want. Nothing. I'm not sold on Cell. I don't want, or need, some sort of "Media Center." And the software lineup, as of right now, is shit. A bunch of ports and some meh exclusives?

Resistance? Spare me, please. It's a pretty but ultimately mediocre shooter. It's very pretty, but after playing GoW and especially R6 Las Vegas, the gameplay of Resistance comes off as a bit...dated, to me. If it was a PC game I would probably still like it enough to play it, but a fucking PS control? No thanks. I hate the damn dualshock and its crap analogs.

And speaking of the control...sorry, it feels like a cheap piece of shit to me. Perhaps I simply prefer to have some actual weight to my controls. Also, I really hate shoulder buttons. Hate hate HATE shoulder buttons, and the controller for the PS3 has 2. I'm much better with triggers.

And finally, lets not kid ourselves. Look at the price of a stand-alone BD player. Then look at the PS3 price. Even with the amount of money Sony is losing on the system right now, do you really think the BD parts int he PS3 are the same top-of-the-line stuff you would find in a standalone player? I don't believe so personally.

It's only in bigger venues, which have darkened crowds anyways. Like this (http://media.ps3.ign.com/media/748/748455/img_4076634.html).

Besides, my comment about "beefed up" wasn't about the graphics (my comment about "shiner" was). I meant things like the addition of fighting stances, new animations, better physics, and Get in the Ring mode. And my only point was that it's silly to think the PS3 is going to be some inferior gaming machine. The launch titles aren't what I'd like, but there's enough good gaming spread around to give an indication that the Playstation isn't just meant to be some Blu-Ray/Digital Media machine.

Oh well, big surprise. You never cared much about consoles to begin with. Like Sky and Hoax, that's always been your schtick. It has nothing to do with the PS3.

You're pretty much wrong and don't really do any research. Especially about consoles. As Stray just said, you're just being predictable.

I hope your example of FN3 isn't to imply the PS3 is better. EA just had more time to actually put real features into the game. I think the pissing and moaning about one being better than the other is stupid and Stray's recent fanboi attitude is getting annoying. You like your PS3. A lot. Great. Thanks.

I just said I put that example up to show that it isn't some inferior gaming machine -slash- "It's really just a Blu-Ray player". It had nothing to do with the PS3 being better (though I do think the PS3 will eventually be better by virtue of being more versatile).

That's it.

I'm only being a "fanboi" because I keep hearing stuff like that (or other examples like "the PS3 loads games slower"). Talk about annoying.

If I was really being a fanboi, I'd make up shit about the 360's inferiority. Which I don't. My only beef with it is that 1) Microsoft eventually wants to bring you the homogeneous and sacrificial upgrade cycle from hell and 2) It's a bit of a one trick pony when it comes to exclusives.

The 360 isn't a one trick pony when it comes to exclusives. Unless you mean, they've got this one cool trick where they steal from Nintendo and Sony - left and right.

I keep seeing tough, American Space Marine guys with big guns. Helmets optional.

Bullshit. I care about consoles when they're worth caring about. For me, right now, the PS3 is not worth what attention I've given it. If I wanted to get a new console right now, I would. A 360, and then a Wii in close second. They both have games I actually want to play.

Hey, congratulations then. You've changed overnight for the sake of this thread. Have fun.

Now you're just pulling shit completely out of your ass.

OK, don't have fun then?

Wow.



This is just like the old days.  I miss them so.

So Kotaku has a vid (http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/xbox-360/clip-xbox-360-hdmi-in-action-226584.php) of the 360 with HDMI.

In other news, here's a stupid article about the PS3 downgrading to DVD:

http://www.gadgetnutz.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=00264 (http://www.gadgetnutz.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=00264)

With Resistance already being over 20 GB, Kojima coming out and saying that MGS can barely be contained in 25GB, and 360 titles like Blug Dragon already being 3 DVD's long, I don't think so.

What is that VGA bullshit? I need to see a straight HDMI video to buy that rumor.

Same, what's with the adapter? Need more info on the path there...plus HDMI and a larger drive are only really useful if the DVD drive has been upgrade to HDDVD.

Maybe he just had a funky cable, and needed the adaptor..?

Besides, I don't see how it could be just a simple port/chassis mod. Hdmi still needs a chipset on the mb.

That's an HDMI to DVI adapter you dorks.

Oh shit. Motorstorm losing exclusive status! (http://www.gametrailers.com/umwatcher.php?id=32189).  :cry:

Hey, thats one of the reasons why I got a Wii as well. Well in part. Aside from the fact that the PS3 isn't released here, it and the 360 have one thing in common that stands out to me right now - they're both expensive shiny boxes of exactly the same titles that their older versions were. I'll buy both eventually I'm sure, but for the time being, there's a big stack of BFD about both. The Wii, despite it's limited number of titles worth owning, does something a bit different and does it in a fun enough way to make it worthwhile.

As for the PS3 being a wonderful blu-ray player, I can't express in words how little I care about the latest incremantal-upgrade proprietry format that Sony is trying to push. I hope it fails miserably like minidisc and UMD movies.

The comments on that web page remind me what's so wrong with humanity.

Heh, didn't read any of that. Funny video though.

 :| doh.

Would still rather see a straight HDMI hookup.

Back to the console war (and to be serious this time)....

I've been wondering, does multiprocessor computing encourage a less automated approach to programming games (this applies to both the Cell and the 360, but moreso the Cell)? Will it encourage developers to go back the old days of finely crafted games, or do you think they'll just try to take the easier path and never squeeze the real power out of the the 360's and PS3's CPU's? So far at least, very few games on either platform are doing that, and yet, gamers seem to be pleased anyways.

The reason I bring it up is because of this article (http://spectrum.ieee.org/dec06/4745) about Insomniac, and the issues they faced when making Resistance.

Let me add something here...

Just speaking of processors alone (and not secondary things), it seems like each of these consoles have SO MUCH to offer in unique-ness that it'd be a shame to not see them do so. Both the 360 and PS3 could probably do some amazing shit if their respective MP capabilities were fully utilized. Is there anything that would encourage developers to really dedicate the time to do this, or are we just going to see a shitload of generic ports (and in turn, no real console war at all)?

There was this statement (http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/ps3/ea-games-use-20-percent-of-ps3s-power-221137.php) awhile back where an EA suit said that their current lineup on the PS3 was only utilizing 20% of the PS3's power (how he would actually know that, I don't know....But he probably has a point in there somewhere). This would (I think) indicate that those same titles aren't utilizing much of the 360's power either. If they were, then they probably wouldn't be so easily portable to begin with (that they were mainly running on the Xenon's PPE - Which is a cinch to port for the Cell PPE. They're practically cousins).

Is that good? If all we're going to get is underpowered games and under-utilitized systems (with a unique first party title here and there), then what's the stop the Wii from kicking ass in the end? It's much more simple to innovate with -- without crippling future porting possibilities to boot.

Just some thoughts...

Well, being EA, they have to take it easy so that they can squeeze out x number of years worth of incremental upgrades.

I'm only half joking.


Though, I do forsee a lot of lowest-common-denominator happening, hopefully not including the Wii too much (as CoD3 looked like ass).

It's much easier to tweak the Wii to it's limit. It's only half the power of one of the cores in the 360, and significantly slower than the PS3's main core as well. Plus, since it's basically still a GC design, developers are already quite familiar with it (this goes without mentioning all of the lessons learned about the PPC through the 360 and PS3 as well). Coupling that with the upgrades it has over the GC will help make average titles look as good or better than RE4, I think.

All in all, it's far less complicated to maximize potential out of the Wii. What might be a half assed effort on the 360 will be the peak potential of the Wii (but the Wiimote will set it apart obviously).

As for the other two consoles, it's going to have to come down to exclusives (Titles that are exclusive by design, that is. Not because of marketing). I don't see how else they expect to differentiate between each other. The cool thing is, considering the even more hands on nature and degree of attention needed for mp development, these hypothetical exclusive titles could be amazing and less prone to error and lack of oversight.

In that respect that you've made your bias against MS known a couple of times here though you are being a bit of a fanboi (at least in the sense that you seem to think Sony and Nintendo are any better).  Adding an HDMI port, selling an HD-DVD add-on, or making larger drives available is no more of an upgrade cycle from hell than what Sony did with the PS2 last generation.  Look up the hardware revisions for the PS2 sometime, even just the ones done before the slim PS2 came out.  Hell, Nintendo removed component from later model Gamecubes.  I'd say that's worse than adding HDMI to 360's.

As far as being a one trick pony when it comes to exclusives, maybe you're just looking at the over-hyped exclusives too much as an example.  Some exclusives that don't find the "guys with guns" stereotype:

Already released:

- Viva Pinata (don't know how the hell you'd describe that one)
- Dead Rising
- Chromehounds, 99 Nights (yeah, both got mixed reviews but again, they don't fall into your stereotype and who knows yet which PS3 exclusives will be any good)

Not yet released:

- Culdcept Saga (card/strategy game)
- Settlers of Catan (great fucking boardgame, being made into an XBox live game with a couple other boardgames.  Yes I'm excited about this.)
- Project Sylpheed (shooter by SquareEnix.  And by shooter I don't mean FPS, I mean like Colony Wars type shit)
- Halo Wars (yeah yeah, it's Halo, guys with guns and everything, but it's an RTS.  If Bungie has enough of a hand in it to make it play anything like Myth I'll be happy).
- Fozra 2, Moto GP, PGR (racing)
- Blue Dragon, Lost Odessey, Cry On, Spectral Diario, Two Worlds, Eternal Sonata (Japanese-style RPGs)
- Fuzion Frenzy 2 (party game)
- Dead or Alive series (fighting games)
- Too Human (not sure what this would be classified as)

That's almost 20 exclusives (and there's a lot of games I left out) that don't fall into your one trick pony trap.  It's also a little unfair to roll Mass Effect in with various shooters just because of the way the game looks, especially when you don't seem to criticize MGS4, DMC4, Resistance, Mercenaries 2, or Eight Days, for all being high-profile PS3 exclusives that involve heavy use of gunplay, regardless of whether or not any of them actually play alike.

Too Human belongs to that nefarious of genres known as vaporware.

I never said I had a problem with an HD-DVD add on or hard drives per se. My complaint was if they started focusing on HD-DVD as the medium for their games, or started requiring a hard drive for games to function. That would be bullshit, since it would screw over anyone without them, and just confuse customers (especially the type who don't post at sites like this). If you're going to make those components a crucial part of your gaming strategy, then do it at launch.

They haven't done that though -- When those issues were brought up, it was in response to someone thinking they could.

As for HDMI, it's not the big issue on my list like it may be with others here.

Though again, if they do add it, it's still screwing with current customers (but not in the same way changing an entire medium would).

Hell yeah I think they're better. No shame in that. Since when did Microsoft become cool?

Don't answer that.

Just so you know though, this bias against Microsoft isn't just about games. I've hated them for years. Mainly because I've been a Mac user going on 20 years now, and because I think Windows is a piece of shit (yeah, it's that simple).

As for game consoles specifically, I'm still able to (begrudgingly) give them some credit. I'm not the Sony fanboi you think I am.

For one, their development tools are great. How Sony manages to pull off anything (especially against this new competition) boggles my mind.

Microsoft spending a tiny fraction of their immense pile-o-cash gained from being a predatory monopoly on trying to widen the scope of their console beyond teenage males?

Heck, the damn thing has a full page add ((c) microsoft) in the NGamer mag I bought today.

Huge reply, lost it.  Funny how that saps your will to restate your awesome ideas.

Hand-optimization now, improved compiler or perhaps a separate PS2-style optimizer later.  Like most other compilers, I assume.  Launch games will eternally look like shit compared to later-life-cycle games.  Reference any other console.

I believe in Software Superiority.  Sony fucked up by losing the exclusives.  Those ex-PS3 games go to 360 since Wii isn't an option for big and shiny games.  Also: Live Arcade.  This means 360 will beat PS3 unless Sony can reverse the software drain.

The Wii is in some other race.  I'd pay for an overclocked Cube, plus my son would love it.  In my house, it is going to be Console #2.

MS never became cool.  I used to be an idealistic Mac user myself for many years, but I just realized they weren't the devil I liked to think they were.  They certainly can't be any worse than Nintendo, who had their own share of shady business practices back when they were on top.

Why you might want a bigger HD on your 360:  http://on10.net/Blogs/tina/you-heard-it-people-carbon-is-real/

I would only use it for some HD content since I have a Tivo that I  :heart:

No, they don't. It is not as "free-flowing" as the Wii's motion sensing controls. They won't be able to mimic the Wii's capabilities with more shiny, they'll be able to have some gimmicky uses of the motion-sensing and that's it. It'll be decent for driving games, maybe on shooters for ducking behind cover and not much else. And if they want to release a Wiimote knockoff, then you have the "not everyone has the PSMote" problem.

Damn shame. We need huge replies in this thread. It's so much more interesting to read about than Brad McQuaid.  :?


As far as I can tell, the best thing in the works is IBM's Octopiler, which will help streamline SPE scheduling for the Cell. But they're moving slow. It's like Sony and IBM are still basically in the alpha stage as far as compilers go.

On the other hand, some developers have come out and said it's already easier to work with than the PS2. Mainly because of Sony embracing OpenGL and Cg, and the already large variety of middleware. Nor does anyone have to use all of the pecularities of the Cell to get power from it (it'd be nice though).

Yes, I'll agree with that. I don't really expect a general purpose ripoff though. Future motion sensing capability might be more along the lines of game specific peripherals like the Eyetoy or Guitar Hero (successful gimmicks in their own right for sure....but nothing truly competitive with the Wiimote). But it's better to have the groundwork laid than to not have it at all. If anything.

IBM is just slow, period.  I have personally discovered and reported bugs to them in AIX (the xlC.rte, coincidentally), which is retarded considering it's a commercial enterprise OS.

The AIX xlC compiler has some very aggressive optimization that it can do, enough that I noticed the difference when compiling Vim for Power5, so IBM will get there eventually.  In the end, though, programmers will have to know how to write the code.  Right now I think xlC is at version 8, so maybe they will have something halfass in a couple of years for the PS3.  I'm actually kinda relieved that IBM is working on it rather than Sony, for only vague reasons, perhaps due to familiarity.

Hmm...On the bright side of things, I guess it's also good for the extending quality and performance during the later years of these consoles' lifespans too. Developers can already squeeze out great results with what little multithreading they are doing, and by the time they make the full transition, console games might still seem impressive after 3 or 4 years, and more (unlike previous generations).

Makes me wonder about the next generation too. With all of these tools and techniques in place by that time, games will utilize more power from the get go.

Either way, multicore is the way to go. Whether it's consoles or PC's. Too bad the hard work has to fall on software developers now (i.e. those who need their jobs to be as simple as possible....for everyone's sake).

Well, yeah, multi-CPU has been going on in some environments for years and it's coming to the home now.  I'm not surprised the bleeding-edge (game devs) are the first implementors.  Now that hardware costs for multi-CPU setups are within the grasp of normal people, it should become the norm soon enough.

So is it stupid to buy Xbox 360 now? I'm about to buy a HDTV and I'm definitely going to want to use HDMI if I can, I wish there was some way I could figure out if I would get screwed by not waiting. Guess I will at least have to wait for the official announcement to see how exactly M$ is implementing this.

I'm not sure the rumors - of exactly what we've been hearing - are true. Maybe they are, but I'm just doubting it. They put too much work into the HDDVD player as it stands. As such, ehhh, get one and get a service plan. Of course, I'd recommend that either way.

I really doubt HDMI is coming. If they were going to announce it, it would have been this week at CES. Instead, they've taken all the time to talk about IPTV and how the Zune is good for gaming.

There was a video up on youtube that showed the whole thing being hooked up to a tv, it showed the slower loading opening screen which was supposedly proof that it was HDMI. The video also linked to a site (which I now cannot find) that showed a modified motherboard among other changes.

How would a service plan prevent me from getting screwed if they release a new one with a bigger HD and HDMI (and maybe even HD-DVD) which would be cheaper than an upgraded old one?

I don't think my service plan includes replacement for a newer version, but I suppose it could have a "defect" and need replacing.

All I know, is if your system needs replacing and you have a service plan, you can "upgrade" to the new one. Sure, it may be because I'm tight with Gamestop folks and don't treat them like dogshit and preorder _everything_. But ya know what, companies pulling shit like this is the reason I don't lose sleep at nights when these things happen.

The three-year service plan I have from Target on my PS3 specifically warrants against normal wear and tear.  You should be able to use that one anytime, even if it's full of dust or something.  If you can't do that, get it at Wal*Mart, they just don't give a shit about exchanges.

I find it kind of shady that the video of the HDMI 360 came from a site that does 360 hacking. Just sayin'.

I have a question I'll just dump in this thread...I'm running on DVI gear, I don't know squat about HDMI except that it bundles audio and video. How does that work with a non-HDMI receiver? Are there adapters that break the audio out from an HDMI cable and pass the video via HDMI into the monitor? Or is there a seperate optical port for audio that works alongside the HDMI (and is there a latency issue introduced with either?)? How about HDMI -> DVI, is how would the audio go to the receiver in that case?

Just something that I've wondered about for a while now but didn't care to ask.

Right now I just have my DVD player hooked up to HDMI and there's a setting on the player itself to send sound out via an optical cable. The HDMI just does video. So I have the HDMI hooked straight into the TV and an optical cable going into my receiver. Most things that have HDMI out should have an option somewhere to send sound out via optical. I also think that some A/V components recognize when an optical cable is plugged in and automatically send sound out that way, no matter what other cables are hooked into it.

Yeah, my TV will just default to optical if that's used.

Cool, thanks.