f13.net

So, Sony has been making noise for a while about supporting Linux on the PS3 and about it being an Open Platform.  Just about an hour ago they made good on this, making the installer needed to install a bootloader for an alternate OS ("Other OS" in PS3 terms) available:
http://www.playstation.com/ps3-openplatform/index.html

The ADDON image contains the otheros.bld (bootloader) and various other goodies:
ftp://ftp.uk.linux.org/pub/linux/Sony-PS3/

This stuff works with Fedora Core 5 for PowerPC.  It should be adaptable to any other PPC Linux distribution (YellowDog is releasing their version on the 27th, for example):
http://torrent.fedoraproject.org/torrents/bordeaux-DVD-ppc.torrent
http://fedora.redhat.com/Download/mirrors.html

More patches and goodies:
http://www.powerdeveloper.org/playstation.php

My PS3 is chugging along, installing FC5-PPC, and I'm really hoping that not having the ADDON stuff burnt to a CDR ahead of time won't result in me needing to reinstall (since I am warned that this install takes two hours).

In any case, this has me pretty excited about the platform as an indie/hobbiest development system.  They're providing access to the HDD and BDROM drive (via hypervisor traps, to protect the Game OS and Game Data), the USB subsystem, the SPEs, etc.  Sadly the only GPU access as of right now is for the frame buffer (no HW accel from linux).  I'm pestering two people I know who are involved in PS3 developer tools at Sony, but so far it sounds like GPU support is going to be a ways off (boo).

Still, this sets a new bar for open console platforms. 

-Q

NVIDIA only releases binary drivers for Linux and they've only released them for Intel x86 compatible CPUs so far. If they haven't released any PPC drivers to date, it would take some serious strong-arming from Sony to get them to cough one up now.

An NVIDIA OpenGL library for PS3 native almost certainly exists (as, to my understanding, Sony provides those bindings as part of their devkit).  The big question is: is Sony willing to talk them into releasing it for the Linux side of the world?  This is assuming Sony doesn't want to intentionally limit the Linux side by restricting the GPU to being just a big 'ol expensive framebuffer.

-Q

This stuff confuses me. Does this mean that if I build a FC5 box I can go out and buy a PS3 game and run it on my PC? It doesn't look that way. Seems you can load FC5 on your PS3 hardware. Why anyone would want to do this is utterly beyond me.

It's more the other way around.

You can repartition the PS3 HDD (using builtin tools) to make space available for a second OS.  Then you can install Linux (FC5-PPC edition for example) on that second partition and boot it.  You can always boot back to the normal PS3 OS.  Linux has no access to the PS3 OS part of the hard drive and currently cannot make use of the graphics acceleration features (the RSX chip basically is used just for a framebuffer).

Why this is interesting: Even without GPU access, this thing should be plenty fast enough for being a Linux PVR box, run emulators, generally dink around with as a fancy 64bit Linux system with a bunch of DSP/PPC crossbreed cores (the SPEs).  If they actually provide GPU access, then Linux on PS3 becomes a pretty slick platform for indie game development -- access to just about all the hardware.

-Q

No, different OSes and a generic PPC machine like an old Mac or IBM workstation won't have the Cell chip or other specialized hardware. And even if IBM released a Cell-based workstation you can bet the PS3 OS and hardware has copy protection/DRM restrictions up the wazoo and will only run on a real PS3.

Because it's there?

Unless the PS3 OS is based on Linux (which it might be) the driver to kernel API will be different which means NVIDIA would have to do some work to get it to work with the Linux kernel.

I'm pretty certain the PS3 OS is completely proprietary.

I was operating under the assumption that they'd actually do the heavy lifting in userspace and a kernel driver would only be needed to manage physical resources / map memory / route interrupts.  I *thought* that was how they did it on Linux-x86, but a quick look at the modules on my desktop machine here shows that nvidia.ko is 5MB (good gods!), so I guess I was wrong there.

*If* they don't do it as a kernel driver, it's quite possibly a pretty straight port (and obviously already runs on PPC64).  If it is integrated with the PS3 OS kernel, then, yeah, not so simple.

However, as I am always told by the HW guys whenever they want me to work around something, "It's just software."  If Sony wanted to make it available somehow, I expect they could.  Might not be worth it for them to do so for a number of reasons, but I doubt technical difficulty is a big one.  Staffing, which is related, could be -- if they're short handed engineering-wise they could just lack people to devote to a non-essential project like that.

- Q

Yeah come to think it there is no way it would be cause otherwise Sony would be forced to make the source code diffs available thanks to the GPL.

Doesn't X take a long time to draw without GPU support?

The only thing worse than running Linux is running Linux on hardware that doesn't want to run it.

No. Some of the new fancy schmancy window managers have wizbang effects (copying Apple's OS X Aqua) that require a 3D card but your standard window manager doesn't need or use any of that stuff. My first Linux box ran tvwm and Motif fine on an ET4000 card which is an ancient 2D chipset (no 3D capabilities at all).

The problem with repurposing a PS3 as a PVR is that currently the only way Myth (the Linux PVR app) can handle HD is through over-the-air TV reception. Currently the only working true HD PVRs are the new (and really expensive) Tivo Series 3 and some cable-converter-PVR combos (I have one of those, and it really, really sucks).

I'm using an Explorer 8000HD box through Time Warner. Seems fine to me. What do you have?

Linux + POWER = /sadf

But this is actually pretty cool from a hacking standpoint.

Apparently Snes9x already works on the PS3 - or so I'm told. I give it until New Years day for the PS3 to become the Must Have box for homebrew shit. Now they just need to completely open the PSP so we can stop with this workaround trash.

For once, I might be as excited as Schild.  I can't get worked up over PSP homebrew, but PS3?  That's a selling point, bitches.

Could be worse... could be AIX for PS3...


Really the only downside is lack of access to the RSX.  I hope Sony provides something there eventually -- they had some graphics acceleration support for ps2linux, as I recall. 

Lack of 3D acceleration support puts a damper on more modern homebrew stuff, but this platform should totally rock for emulators, video playback, and other goodies.

It's interesting to compare the MSFT vs Sony strategy here:
- Sony went open platform and lets you just throw whatever OS you want on it and protects content using a hypervisor. No access to hw graphics features as yet.  Free.  You can share your software as source, binary, whatever.
- Microsoft provides a tools solution that lets you develop managed C# content for 360 and actually run it directly on the 360 with hw graphics access, etc.  It does cost $99/year and currently you can only share your created content as source code.

I'm curious to see if Sony provides a homebrew path to making actual native titles.  The gameOS likely uses the same hypervisor and if anything is possibly more secure (from a content protection standpoint) than linux.  I enjoy the linux hackery, but being able to write code that people who don't install linux can run (likely the vast majority of ps3 users) would be a blast.

-Q

Why? You have a PC.

Homebrew on a console is actually much less of a selling point to most people than you think it is.

PS3 is still way overrated.

But pretty cool nonetheless.

Definitely not because of Linux though.

Can someone please explain to me the logic here? Anyone playing games on a PS3 isn't going to be intelligent enough to load Linux anyway!
 :evil:
/runs!

Fixed

Upstairs.

Selling point for me, asscake.  I hardly give a shit about other people.

[edit] Err. Nevermind.

snes9x builds pretty much out of the box on ps3linux.

You need to throw the following in snes9x/unix/unix.cpp to get it to build, as the system headers don't seem to define these:

typedef unsigned long kernel_ulong_t;
#define BITS_PER_LONG 32

It's getting stuttery sound and the framerate jumps around in the 45-60 rate, unlike my x86 linux machine and macmini where it stays pegged at 60/60.  There's no ppc-native assembly emulator core (unlike x86 and sh4), but I don't think that's the issue since it's only using about 28% cpu (and the X server is using 8%).

Still, kinda neat.  Probably won't be all that much work for somebody to get it cleaned up for ps3.

-Q

I'd like to replace my xbox media center with a ps3 media center someday.

The tools and driver support available today should be enough to build such a thing on ps3linux.  While the GPU would be neat for cheap effects, there should be plenty of cycles between the PPE and 6 SPEs to handle video decode, etc. 

I'm hoping to replace my mac mini (which I use for media playback and emulator stuff) with the ps3.

The real trick, I think is for people to think embedded linux and consider dumping X and a lot of heavy toolkits and work directly with /dev/fb0 (which is double buffered) and make heavy use of the SPEs for accelerating video decode.

I'm hoping to find some time to hack on this over the holidays.  ffmpeg builds and runs just fine on the ps3, which seems like a decent starting point.

- Q

Considering that I already have my 360 networked to my computer, and my computer already has an HDMI cable leading to the TV, what purpose would this serve?

Granted, I'm not the norm, but there are easier ways to create a media center than slapping Linux on a PS3.

Yes.

The Corporate Overlords have deemed that doing this on your PC is a Very Bad Thing. I looked into the whole 'home theater pc' thing and it's frankly garbage if you have an hdtv. DVDs are ok with a good scaler (ATI is not great, but it's passable), but HD content is out. When prices become reasonable, I'll go for a combo BluRay/HD-DVD drive for my pc, since my monitor supports HDCP, but that's at least a year or two away.

Probably none for you. My computer is upstairs, and my (regular) xbox is downstairs hooked up to my big tv and stereo system. They are both networked to my server w/ a samba share. I torrent. Yep, I just admitted it. I watch things that I download off the intarweb. I move them to my server and go downstairs to watch them on my big screen tv with XBMC.

Unfortunately my xbox is getting old, and I'm going to need to replace it soonish. 360 is crippled in terms of codecs and won't connect to shares anyway from what I understand. I don't want a computer in my living room, but I will eventually get a ps3 in a year or so once the hype has died down.

Edit: A thought just occurred to me.

1.  Techies convince management to let them run linux
2.  Sony waits until some fairly nifty products come out of homebrew (XBMC, who knows what else)
3.  Sony hires homebrew makers
4.  Re-branded homebrew program is released through Sony's online service
5.  Sony does what Microsoft never could -- takes over the living room and provides a nice multimedia experience.

Of course, Sony's hate for all things and formats non-proprietary may get in the way of this.. but it's an interesting idea.

I expect in 6-12 months there will be some halfway decent linux solutions for media stuff on ps3.  Almost all the pieces needed exist today.  Most of the trick will be performance tuning to make the most of the PS3's somewhat unique hardware.


My theory was this was their opening for indie gamesdev -- let people show their chops on the open and unsupported platform and then Sony can approach anyone who does something really stunning about publishing.  Lack of GPU access does put a bit of damper on this theory, though maybe they'll fix that.

- Q

Why would Sony want to publish a game that can only run under Linux? That would force people to have to install Linux on their boxes to play that game. Microsoft's strategy is a much better one for indie developers.

Presumably you would just download "something" from their version of xbox live, call it a "application enabler" and package it right in. You don't need to call it  linux.

That "application enabler" would still be an OS other than the PS3 one that would require a reboot every time you wanted to play a game. Or am I missing something here?

[edit]

Err..Then again, that's no more inconvenient than changing discs for regular games.

I don't believe the PS3 OS supports OS virtualzation but I could be wrong.

No, no, my thought was that part of publishing would be "port it to the PS3 Game OS".  I certainly don't think that Sony would want typical end users to ever have to experience Linux in any way, directly or indirectly.  More of a "show your chops doing some cool stuff on the hardware and maybe they'd be interested in adopting something really clever and getting it cleaned up for release" sorta deal.

I totally agree that Microsoft's XNA stuff has a clearer path for development on their platform, though managed C# only seems potentially a little restrictive to me.  The Sony approach with Linux does provide a way to do projects that would never be shippable, ever, though -- "here's how you run whatever you like on the hardware, enjoy", which has some upsides but if your main goal is "build a shippable game" doesn't buy you nearly as much.

- Q

Sony-contributed PS3 patches added to Linux kernel 2.6.20 (http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS6521115697.html)

Naturally, the FSF crowd isn't happy because Sony didn't release anything significant for the GPU. Picky bastards. Sony didn't even have to embrace Linux at all.

Well, you know, it's kind of hard to do 3D graphics without access to the GPU. On the PS3 you could of course fake it by using the SPEs and creating a software 3D renderer but that would be a fricking lot of work.

There are nvidia kernel drivers though, right? Wouldn't it be possible for them to just reverse engineer to at least get some 3d functionality out of it?

If one thing is true, Linux coders are a resourceful bunch. I've just never liked FSF advocates very much though. They do nothing but bitch.

Umm, yeah sure, go right ahead, even though those are compiled for the Intel x86 architecture which is totally different than the PowerPC. Oh and don't try distributing anything you hack together or NVIDIA's going to come after you:


Except that without the FSF there would be no Linux.

No, I meant the hacked-from-ground up nvidia drivers built in to the kernel (the source based ones). By reverse engineering, I meant....Well, I fucked up. Scratch the "reverse engineering" bit. I meant doing the best they could to get at least FX functionality out of the PS3 by using that code. I wasn't referencing Nividia's own binary drivers.

The open source NVIDIA drivers don't do any acceleration -- i.e. they treat NVIDIA cards like dumb V/SV/XGA frame buffers.

Not really being a hardware guy so I may be way off base - but even without the GPU / 3D capabiilities doesn't this still provide PS3/Linux users with a FSF alternative to Windows Media Center/Extenders ala 360?

I don't know enough about video playback on Linux to say if video playback works better if you can use the GPU to the fullest for things like video/hardware overlaying and hardware decoding of video streams and stuff like that (I only use it a server OS). The overlay stuff isn't 3D-specific so its possible it might be suported in a "generic" Linux video driver. Other typically 3D-card specific video features like hardware decoding of MPEG-2 and H.264 can be rewritten to use the SPEs. You might even be able to just use the PPE though I would worry that the UI might get a little sluggish (particularly with H.264).

Unfortunately it looks like the current hypervisor design doesn't provide any way to touch the GPU's registers directly from linux (unless there are undocumented hypervisor traps for that).  Currently there's a mechanism to request a video mode change, to request a DMA from a main ram framebuffer to the GPU's framebuffer memory, wait for vsync, etc:

#define L1GPU_CONTEXT_ATTRIBUTE_DISPLAY_MODE_SET    0x100
#define L1GPU_CONTEXT_ATTRIBUTE_DISPLAY_SYNC        0x101
#define L1GPU_CONTEXT_ATTRIBUTE_DISPLAY_FLIP        0x102
#define L1GPU_CONTEXT_ATTRIBUTE_FB_SETUP            0x600
#define L1GPU_CONTEXT_ATTRIBUTE_FB_BLIT             0x601
#define L1GPU_CONTEXT_ATTRIBUTE_FB_BLIT_SYNC        0x602

-Q

I guess they don't want you to, you know, USE any of that graphics hardware.