f13.net

Crazed attorney offers 10 grand to charity if someone will make a violent video game for him. (http://gc.advancedmn.com/article.php?artid=5883)

Unfortunately, his game "idea" is sufficiently shitty that it'd cost more money than it's worth to make him the game and shut him up.

This man sure likes making friends on the internet, doesn't he.

Yeah, you've got a $10,000 check, congrats.  Does he think this is a lot of money?

The obvious answer here is to make a game based on his idea, fill it with snuff, gay sex, and racially-motivated killings, then put it on the shelf with the sub-title "From the Mind of Jack Thompson"

I agree.

Apparently after an E-mail from Gabe, he phoned them and got angry.

I have an honest question :  If these games turn us all into one-shot pyschopaths, how come no-one's nailed him with the railgun yet ?

Hmmm....

My question is what the fuck was he playing that made him so angry. My only guess is "the incest game."

It's fun for all the family.

If'ns she ain't good enuf fer her own she ain't good enuf fer us.

Sorry, old joke where I'm from. :P

My thought was to have a little Jack Thompson avatar floating around that tells you what to do next, like the bad conscience in Black and White, or like Starkweather's voice in Manhunt.  And in between giving you instructions he sodomizes children.

I'm really more than a little tempted to make this a Half-Life 2 mod.

I know that joke!  It's law 'round these parts.

Once again we see that everybody thinks he can design videogames.  How hard can that be?

I searched around the web just a bit to find his personal email.  Unfortunately, the link is apparently outdated or has been spammed so much since the link from Penny Arcade that it's been deactivated.  Still, I sent him something.

I don't think most people here will agree with my sentiment in its entirety.  Understand, first, that I do not believe this site to be representative of the "average gamer" these days, and I'm sure you'd all agree.  So try not to take it personally when I talk about gamers- I don't mean you, I mean the proverbial "them" and, to be honest, "me".

I've also had the discussion about responsible use of content in games before, and I'm sorry but I just cannot see any reasonable defense for being able to run around, dildo in hand, beating hookers to death- with the exception that it, of course, should not be illegal to put this in a game.  But it's a question of taste.  I find myself rolling my eyes when I think of the mindset that decided to include that in a game, and I find myself with a feeling of profound disappointment when I think of how popular that game was precisely because of content like that.  Then I find myself self-doubting, because I have chosen to associate myself with that very crowd.  But I digress.

I just wanted to let you all know where I stand on this, and say that I'm not trying to provoke a debate here.  But, as this site is largely a giant collection of editorials, I thought I'd put my drop in the bucket.

For what it's worth, the address I found was jackpeace@comcast.net

Short Version:

You're a douche and you're not helping.

Typo in there.

Probably.  I didn't review it too much, I knew that in the event he even opened the mail he'd read the first couple sentences and, best case scenario, write something vicious back.  The catharsis was in writing it.  Still.  What's the typo?

It's probably unnoticeable to most. But the correct usage in this sentence is "gaming industry."

Sure, people in the gaming industry like making money. Or:

Sure, the people in the video game industry like making money (Videogaming, video games, and electronic entertainment were/are also acceptable).

Ideally:

Sure, folks in the gaming industry enjoy making money as much as your parasitic bitch-ass.

Did you try to email him from a gmail or other free mail account?  I was able to email him from a gmail account once and got the "not a subscriber" bounce thereafter, but I've heard anecdotal evidence of him being contactable, so maybe he just blocked the gmail domain.

A good letter.

A total waste to send it to such a useless cocksucker.

I keep hoping that someday a mainstream newspaper will do an article on Jack Thompson's complete douchery.  You know, publish one of the reasonable letters that people send him along with his typical "I PK JOO" response.  Every time I see Thompson in print anywhere other than a gaming site, they omit mention that he's a raving lunatic.

Your response will be something along the lines of, "You useless twit, your brain is so game-addled you can't even think straight.  I have no time to waste on the likes of you, any further e-mails will be considered harassment and I will sue you."

I've seen better-written letters that didn't fall into the trap of calling him or even implying that he was a 'cockmunch' get that treatment, you'll get no better with your thinly-veiled insults.  He's absolutly insane, and if anyone would act rationaly instead of like a 15 year-old raging against the machine when they were forced into TV appearences with him that might be seen.  However, gamers are terribly insecure because of exactly what you point out, Llava, and so they are easily baited into acting like idiots and losing the public PR game.

Um.  It's not just gamers.  ANY large area of interest has the same problems.  Which is why the bigger ones usually appoint a spokesperson.

Ask PETA members what they think and you'll get fucked up nonsense.  Ask the PETA spokesman and you'll get more sense that you then have to decode into fucked up nonsense.

Edited to add :  My Point ?  I would say to this guy 'Shut the fuck up you Cunt'.  Raph might say 'That's not quite correct', or 'I don't think you understand the issues' or, more likely 'games are patterns of behaviour.'

I would go with video game industry because gaming industry makes me think of Vegas.

Vegas, baby.

Llava, I must confess I think it's a lot of bullshit to say Grand Theft Auto is an irresponsible game and damaging the industry, and especially to infer that the game was made out of spite and sold to kids as revenge against the crusty politicians of the past.  DMA made the sandbox-style of game very popular in the industry, and the only irresponsibility involved is the parents and the recent lunacy regarding Hot Coffee.  As it stands, the game was made by adults for adults.  Some days I want to be mario, some days I want to be Tommy Vercetti.

GTA damages the industry simply because of bad taste.

That's all there is too it. The game may have achieved a lot in the gaming world, but it's bad fucking taste. I don't care about the racial (ist) overtones, the humans killing humans, or the correlation to actual places and events. The premise is poor. Gang warfare of any sort does not help the status of the industry. At the very least, when movies are made about this sort of thing they try to teach/depict/educate in some way. SOME WAY. GTA does not. It just wants you to live the life of a gangster. If that's how you choose to roleplay/escape/whatever fine, but it doesn't make it ok.

I mean that's what this is all about right? A game with a shoddy premise and zero moral value that happened to make the sandbox interesting (when really it's just an action roleplaying games with linearity removed) does not make it a cornerstone of the industry. If I were a game developer, I'd distance myself as far the fuck away from Rockstar as I could. At least Postal was funny. It knew not to take itself seriously. GTA does and it doesn't even make an attempt to say that NOTHING IN THE GAME IS OK. Screw them for that. They fucked themselves and put them in this industry. Rockstar is hurting the entire gaming industry. They are singularly the ones to blame. Doom made waves when it came out but Carmack and Co. took a step back and kept doing what they knew how to do. Rockstar just plays it like an asshole. When you're selling millions of copies you can't afford to do that. They are hurting the industry in the exact same way Jack Thompson is making lawyers look like insane douchebags.

Even after all that, I don't believe for a minute that any crimes can be blamed on GTA. I don't think children should be playing it and I blame parents solely for children playing it. Having worked in gaming retail for a Long Time, I know for a fact very few of these get sold without the parents consent. Every store in my EB district actively told parents Not to buy it for their kids. Of course some did, but I lived in Prince Georges County (Grand Theft Auto: Capitol City is only a year away, it has to be, they'd be insane not to make it) where parents aren't what you would say the most....safe-haveny about what their children are doing. Rockstar can't be blamed for that, but they will be. And deserve to be. For bad taste.

It's a goddamn video game.  The primary purpose is not narrative or theme, but interaction.  If the player wants to play the role of a gangster, a secret agent, a double-e breasted japanese martial artist, or even a turtle-killing plumber, then it's no fucking deal if there is a message or not as long as you can translate a feeling of playing that "fantasy" out.  If you want to talk about games made in poor taste, talk about garbage like The Guy's Game.

I think you missed the point. Completely. By a long shot.

The Guy Game is not about killing <insert racial slur for...anybody here>. GTA is. Really, that's all it's about - all things considered. Sure, there's a bland story, sure it's done interesting things for the whole emergent gameplay bullshit being tossed around by the hype machine, but really it's just racially driven gang warfare. All of them are - though Vice City was more just...well, Miami is special. The fact that people want to interact that way is poor taste and it's even poorer taste to make that game. I hate to say "be more creative" but then, their next release is The Warriors. When Rockstar makes a game about Double-E Breasted Martial Aritsts killing stereotypical japanese men, come too me. Until then, I'll be watching the extreme media martyr them.

I disagree with what schild says.

GTA is one of the best game franchises in existence. The utter lack of political correctness is refreshing. It's a game for adults, and was labelled as such, even before hot coffee.

Stop being such a tit. You want to see racial violence, the USA is the wrong place to look, buck (try Europe or Africa, where actual genocide has been attempted in the last few years). It's too bad you couldn't get past the setting, it really wasn't a very racist game at all. Besides, when did you become an authority on good taste?

Postal is a good example of a lack of political correctness. GTA is cashing in on the ghetto culture. Don't feel bad, it's positively brilliant. Had I thought of it I would have also. I would have put Versace's houseboat in Vice City. I would have put a Suge Knight boss fight in San Andreas.


Yea, I know the whole "Kill all Haitians" thing was really just playing nice. Please don't try to preach to a Jew about racial violence. That's just insane. I can tell you though, GTA is a excellent item to illustrate the worst of what America has to offer. Sure, there's no genocide in America. And honestly - stopping genocide would make for an interesting political game. Hopefully it'll be in Civ IV. Unfortunately performing it is not. And I never said I was an authority on good taste, but I'm pretty damn good at pointing out the bad. And if you mean to tell me that GTA (PARTICULARLY San Andreas and the aforementioned Haitian bit) isn't EXTREMELY racist, you're nuts. Exploiting the dark corners of man is a profitable venture.

Hey, don't talk down about America, we're plenty good at genocide.  We did the natives real fine here.  Mind you, the same can be said for most places Europeans went.  Of course, Europeans have no monopoly on it, I really can't think of any culture that hasn't engaged in the odd bit of ethnic cleansing now and again.  Indeed, stopping genocide could be an interesting challenge.  But Jack Thompson wouldn't help promote it.

I could dig a Suge Knight boss fight.  Hell, I bet Suge Knight could dig it.  Of course, Suge is talking about wanting to be a coach in the NFL now.  Now there is an interesting game idea to add new gameplay options to the sports genre.  Sortof like if Rockstar did Madden.

But I don't think any game holds a candle to Jack Thompson himself.  This is a parasitic slime bucket who makes his living off of creating fear and exploiting the tragedies of regular human beings, victims and victimizers alike.  Their horrors and suffering are just grist for his sick mill.

I fucking hate movies in that they always has to preach and teach you. In a way it's deceiving when 100% of all movies with drugs shows how drugs are bad, I bet a lot of good music has come from drugs, and probably some other good things as well. I'm not saying drugs are good, but I'm pretty tired of anti drug in my movies by now, I don't need to be educated. A good example is Requiem for a Dream, the most overrated pos ever created, and it's freaking 49 on imdbs best movies ever.

Someone should make a movie about a guy who one day tries out some drugs, gets into the drug industry and starts making some cash. Then while high he kills of some random dude on the streets and gets away with it. The random dude happend to be married to a super hot chick which our main character gets togheter with. He lurs her into drugs as well and shortly after he becomes a famous raper making millions of dollars. The movie ends with them living happily ever after. I wouldn't even be suprised if you could base that story on someones real life story.

Anyway, I don't think GTA is hurting the industry. Sure there's a lot of talk about how GTA ruins young peoples mind, but I don't think they will get anywhere with it. After all it was pretty much the same for movies in the past, there's some pretty distasteful stuff that has been created.

Yay for more entertainment without the preaching!

Way to make the Denis Leary argument.

GTA is hurting the industry because Rockstar handles it badly. GTA is hurting the industry because it's sold by its racism, maybe not to you - but to someone. GTA is hurting the industry because it's a fucking big red target that can't be defended.

But really I shouldn't be responding because you said "I bet a lot of good music has come from drugs" And a lot of good musicians were killed by drugs - as were many of their fans. Just because you don't need to be educated doesn't mean there isn't an 18 year old out there with the mind of a 12 year old. More importantly, what good has GTA done for the industry? Well, emergent gameplay is the answer. But it didn't need the GTA setting. And 99% of the people that bought the game? They don't give two shits about how innovative the gameplay was. They probably don't even use the word "gameplay" when discussing a game.

Everyone is free to show me how it's helping the industry though. See, here's the thing - I am looking forward to Bully and I enjoyed Red Dead Revolver - but GTA is a thorn in my side.

I'm not saying drugs are good, that wasn't my argument, I'm saying that something good has probably come from drugs. That bad things that comes from it I already know, because as I said you get pumped with it 24/7 through movies.

I'm not super informed when it comes to the details of how rockstar is handling their issues with GTA, I would guess that probably a lot of parents who are watching the discussion will keep it away from their children. Will they keep them away from games in general? probably not. And as they say, no PR is bad PR. I guess you'd say hiphop is hurting the music industry as well. In fact I'm guessing rockstar is only trying to mimic the hiphop gangstah culture. People have killed after reading books, watching movies, listening to music and there's always been debates like this. I guess time will tell if Jack Thompson will achive something of importance on this matter, I'm guessing he won't.

EDIT:fixed a bad typo

Real quick, lemme clarify this:

The PR for Rockstar has been great. That same PR makes the game industry look like a bunch of unfeeling dickheads.

Also, the good does not outweigh the bad in music and movies. One of my alltime guilty pleasures is "Drugs are Good" by NoFX. Read into that however you want.

Of course Rockstar is trying to mimic hiphop gangsta culture. Well not mimic, but profit off of it, the entire culture has proven they're willing to buy sweaters with disney characters on it for $200 and Zegna shirts they'll never wear because eurotrash clothes just ain't cut right for our build. Not to mention the countless overpriced brands put out by everyone from lil' romeo to puff daddy.

Jack Thompson has achieved a lot. He's made people look like dickheads. Sure, he's a dickhead but he has the title lawyer. Game Developer isn't exactly prestigious outside of the gaming community. It'll be a few years before lead designers get the fame and respectability of directors, actors and musicians. And to top it off, guess what else isn't helping? The hiphop culture inspired Video Game Awards.

Basically, everyone is shitting in everyone elses cereal and the entire industry is hurt by it. Hot Coffee was a mistake, plain and simple. And if anything should have been rated AO it should have been gameshark for allowing that shit to be accessed. If it can't be accessed off the shelf, it shouldn't be rated.

More on Gabe's conversations with Jack. (http://www.penny-arcade.com/news.php?date=2005-10-14)

I'm more interested in the fucking gameindustry article at the bottom.

Edit: That they managed to slashdot. or penny arcade. or whatever.

The appropriate term is "wang".

That is an interesting point about rating Gameshark AO since it enables access of AO content.  I doubt it would stand legally, but the point interests me ethically.

I think He Who Shall Not Be Named should sue Thompson, as clearly Thompson is stealing the 'Craziest Person Associated With Gaming' title.

I thought the games Tycho referenced in Samwise's link were interesting.

Per Penny Arcade, it looks like even non-gamers are beginning to notice that Jack is a nutjob. (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=12259)


I wonder if Thompson phoned Walsh to call him names after that letter?

Actually, I'd say it's the opposite of racist. It shows a black man overcoming the perils of inner city culture without leaving it behind, along with his hispanic gangbanging friend and asian mobster. All three rise above their circumstances (and racial biases) to succeed (albeit at criminal ventures, but that's the nature of the game). Just portraying racial biases in their actual setting isn't racist, it's realist. If CJ had snubbed Carlos and Woozy because they weren't black, it'd been racist. I found the game to be a refreshing take, set in a racially-charged atmosphere but not being racist at all.
Thankfully, you have the right to that opinion, and it doesn't mean dick to Rockstar. When the rest of the industry is cranking out games on par with GTA, I'll start to think about the setting and content a bit more. As it is, I'll strap on a couple nines and bust some fuckers up, all back of the bus. Stop being a racist imo.

Yes, killing your own people to get out of the ghetto is good. Self-sacrifice is bad. Right. We're on the same page here. Unfortunately the characters in GTA weren't just moving uptown to get themselves a piece of the pie.


Thank you for making my point. It doesn't mean dick to Rockstar and that's EXACTLY why they are hurting the game industry. They didn't think about their shit before they made it. They went by the "all press is good press" credo. And look what it got them, a bunch of money and lawyers, politicians and jacktards crawling up their ass for the rest of eternity. As for the rest of the industry? God of War: Purely adult content. Purely adult game. Ten times any of the Grand Theft Autos. Of course, if they did think about it and then still made it, they're bigger dickheads than I originally thought.

And my point was 'fuck the rest of the industry if they can't make games as fun as GTA'. That's nice God of War was fun, it was also exclusive to a console I don't own. Woops.

How is it hurting the gaming industry? GTA3 laid such a hurt on the industry that it's now surpassing Hollywood profits? The DC crackdown on violent games, akin to their crackdown on Ozzy-era rock lyrics or 2 Live Crew-era rap lyrics? Don't belee da hype, homie.

It's a good game, you don't care for the content, end of story. The rest is business as usual.

From Gamasutra: NIMF dissasociates itself from Jack Thomspon (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=6846).

Sorry if someone already posted this--I scanned for links but didn't see any obvious ones in the thread.

It doesn't matter if I care for the content or if it's a good game. Do you think Hillary or Jack are ever really going to play it for it's merits? I don't care if it's the goddamn holy grail of gaming. People with more clout are making a huff, it's not doing anything good for the industry. In fact, it's making the industry look bad. The ESRB can't police itself? I thought it did a bangup job. More important people don't think so. You know why?

Grand Theft Motherfucking Auto: San Andreas.

Is that clear enough?

Perhaps if you weren't so hardheaded you'd notice that the majority of the GTA content with any "meaning" is satire of american culture in general, and no skin color or association is left unblemished by the time you finish the game.  But I keep forgetting that apparently you like gaming more than me, so obviously your opinion=fact.  Nevermind that almost every GTA review talks about what a great, engaging, and well-done game it is, or that it is probably the most imitated game-template right now.

Schild, your first mistake is thinking those cocksuckers in warshington mean jack squat. Fuck them. Rockstar makes me happy when they bunch panties, because panties need bunching. Slap a new warning label on it, call it compassionate conservatism, move on to the next hot button issue. Meanwhile, Rockstar makes another kickass GTA game. We all win.

When Rockstar can't make the next GTA because of conservative political pressure, let's have this discussion. Until then, unbunch and enjoy the gaming goodness.

Rockstar is hurting the gaming industry by including things like dildos as Easter Eggs, and specifically programming in their games the ability to rape a hooker, beat her to death with said dildo, and rob her rapidly cooling corpse.  Tell me that's not inspired by asinine revenge/violence fantasies.

How do you defend that as art?

No, it shouldn't be illegal to put that in a game.  And if you want to play that shit, that's your right.  But it's bad taste.  Plain and simple.  And when this kind of shit is what most people hear about video games, is it any wonder they're regarded solely as the territory of young men?

Look at comic books.  Do we want to be like that?

And that's all I gotta say.  I know GTA was an adult game.  I don't understand why adults feel the need to beat hookers with dildos.  I do wish my saying "beat hookers with dildos" was hyperbole.  It sounds like it.  How far are we from the "Stab Babies In Their Sleep!" videogame?

OMG LLAVA IS JACK THOMPSON!!!!    :-o

I'll have you know that the hookers in San Andreas were more than happy to get in my pimpmobile.  In fact, THEY paid ME.

As for beating them with dildos, are you suggesting that when you try to beat a hooker (specifically) with a dildo (specifically), a dialog box pop up saying "NO U CANT DO THAT"?  What?  There are hookers in the game, there are dildos in the game.  It's possible to use one to hit the other, but it's not required or even suggested.  Personally, I thought beating people to death with bouquets of flowers was much more satisfying anyway.

I believe it was Vice City that hooker rape was so prevalent.

Why is there even a dildo in the fucking game?  Does it add so much to the gameplay to be able to beat the living fuck out of everyone you come across?  Is it central to the story experience that you assault people on the sidewalk with a chainsaw and impale them on it as they lay prone on the sidewalk?

It's just bad fucking taste and it disappoints me that so many rush to defend it because it is, apparently, the best we have to offer.

Think about it.  Is putting a dildo in the game as an easter egg /really/ a good idea?  Did it enhance the experience for you?  Did you roll around the floor laughing when you found it?  If so- are people wrong to suggest that games are primarily for immature minds?

If you want to play that shit, by all means go ahead.  I wouldn't remove that right if I could.  But you have to understand- this is interactive pornography.  This is the best we can do?

What makes us any better than the 12 year olds who name their characters Haywood Jablowme and XxBouncyBoobsxX?

IMHO this is wrong crowd to try an explain why GTA is bad for the industry to; people on this site don't view games the same way as the mythical "average joe gamer" who simply buys whatever is a hot seller and think the term "emergent gameplay" is in foreign language.  I think it's Raph who said it; hardcore games don't even see the trappings of the hooker and dildo; they see "hit X-Y-Y-A 3 times for a powerup".  So of course to them, it's a non issue.

Joe Q Public is pretty sheeptastic and abivalent to gaming, until something makes them sit up and take notice.  So GTA is "bad"  for the industry b/c all those parent who buy little johnny videogames to keep them out of their hair don't want to have to explain to their neighbors why they allowed their son to play a game in which the above hooker/dildo/murder/rob scene is even possible.  It brings the kind of social embarassment which these folks try to turn into moral outrage, which brings the like of clueless government officals and lawyers we see today arounf GTA.

It's a cultural thing.  Americans in general are great a being both ignorant and apatheric, but given the choice between being actively involved in their kids lives/exercising responsibility for their lack of attention, they unfailingly choose to blame someone else..and then sleazeballs like Thompson see an opportunity to profit accordingly.   The guys like a virtual ambulance chaser.

Remember, individually people can be smart; collectively, their a mob of sheep...with lawyers.

In short, GTA might be a good seller and lead the industry towards more game that share the same genre (if not the same backstory and settings), but it draws all the wrong sort of attention from idiots who could do it harm simply by its immature reveling in the darker parts of human nature.  Can you say V-chip?  I knew you could.

/end pop social psychology bit

Xilren

Nope.  Played through that one too.  No hooker rape.  None of the GTA games have featured rape of any sort.  None.  At all.  Please don't throw a word like "rape" around lightly, kthx.


Primarily as a one-off gag for one of the missions.  Most of the girls you date, you bring them a bouqet of flowers to get in their good graces.  One of the girls you date later on (Millie, whom you're supposed to seduce so you can swipe her access key to the casino vault) looks very prim and proper, and then turns out to have a thing for giant purple dildoes.  I thought it was funny because it was a sharp contrast to her image as presented up to that point, and to the general pattern of wooing a girl that had been established previously in the game.

Now that you've forced me to explain the joke, it's less funny.  I hope you're happy.  Dick.   :-(

I'll take that back, then.  I was misinformed.  A friend of mine swore to me that you could do it.

Still.  Fucking them, then beating them to death and stealing back the money isn't exactly better.

So you've never played any of the GTA games yourself, then?  If not, I humbly suggest you give one of them a whirl.  Keep track along the way of how many hookers you kill and report back to us.   :wink:

Bustin' up hoes is half the fun! Hell, it's ALL the fun.

Played them, not in-depth I'm afraid.  Don't own the proper systems.  I really do wish I had the money to blow on it, actually, so I could speak from a greater position of authority.  But unfortunately, the electric company isn't just willing to spot me this month.

So yeah, invalidates my opinion, etc.  I thought my friend (who loves the game and runs reportedly runs around the city in S&M gear, dildo in hand, assaulting people) was giving me pretty accurate information about stuff in the game, but if he was wrong about the hooker-rape what else might he have been wrong about?

Still.  If I'm at all correct about the content, my opinion stands.

My point (if I do have one, and I could be wrong about that) is that it's pretty much up to the player whether you beat hookers with dildos while wearing bondage gear or whatever.  Saying that GTA is all about beating hookers with dildos is about as accurate as saying that GTA is all about sitting on the beach and watching the sun set.  It's a very large game world that gives you a lot of freedom (mostly within the context of criminal activities, admittedly).  Going out of your way to beat hookers with dildos and then bemoaning the fact that you just beat a hooker with a dildo seems a bit silly to me.

Hmm...Though we like the same game, I disagree.

People probably pass over my posts so much because they think I'm making meaningless quips.

No, I'm posting little kernels of truth. Concise maybe, but that's because I hate numbers and heady analysis. I'm Zen like that (now on to the bitch slappin'! Yeah!).

[edit]

I will agree though about the freedom and the game world. I can slap a hoe in Vegas, Frisco, LA, and everywhere in between. In a myriad of ways. And without loadtimes at that!

The name of this piece is called, my bitch better have my money. Through rain, sleet, or snow, my ho better have my money. Not half, not some, but all my cash. Because if she don't, I'll put my foot dead in her ass. (http://www.moviesoundscentral.com/sounds/betterhave.wav)

Fixed it for you.

Jack Thompson is the new Bothered About Dungeons and Dragons, nothing more but sadly nothing less, either. If his views had a religious base he could be a new Jack Chick for the video game generation. Except apparently he gets people with power to listen to him.

You must remember, I believe that if you give a player character genitals, and then you give them a hand, the first thing they will do is fondle their own genitals.

I can't count how many times I saw people draw a penis on the map in Guild Wars.

So when you put content like that in there, you /know/ people are going after it first and, probably, most frequently.  Especially because the game world reacts to it (I would say that a reaction=a reward, albeit not a huge one, inasmuch that they at least expected you to do it).  Standing on the beach watching the sunset- does anything happen when you do that?  Will some chick come up and start a conversation?

Anyways.  It doesn't much matter, I'm not too comfortable debating the particulars of content I haven't personally played.  But I will still stand by my opinion that it's sad that the most publicized game franchise out there has to be so simultaneously adult and... I  don't want to say immature, but I can't think of a better synonym, so immature.

See, that's why I didn't want to get into a debate about this, and why I mentioned in my letter that it's hard to advocate a certain level of tasteful content without being likened to his dumb ass.

My best friend, who played the game and constantly kept me updated about his latest misdeeds, told me he was raping hookers.  I believed him.  So far, judging by reactions, that's the only incorrect thing he's told me.

No, you cannot "rape hookers".

But the game almost gives you the impression that you could rape hookers.

So...Umm...THAT's pretty cool still.


* I fear that you'll never be able to read between the lines.

That's a very good analogy.  You can do far worse things in a pen and paper RPG than you can do in any video game, because there are no limits whatsoever in a pen and paper game.  Naturally, Jack Chick and Bill Schoebelen then go run a D&D session that involves raping orcs with a broadsword, and say "LOOK RPGS ARE ALL ABOUT RAPING ORCS WITH A BROADSWORD".  I see no difference between this and someone picking up GTA, killing a hooker, and then saying "LOOK GTA IS ALL ABOUT KILLING HOOKERS".



Yes, the sun sets.  A while later, it rises.  And it's really pretty.  Most people who play GTA probably don't notice that.  I spent far more time watching sunsets in Vice City than I did killing hookers.  If you and your friends prefer killing hookers over watching a beautiful sunset and listening to the radio, I'm of the opinion that's your problem, not mine.

Heaven forbid you beat stuff with a dildo, I mean it's obviously worse than beating someone with an axe

Beating somebody to death with a dildo actually has precedence in entertainment, having been part of a scene in Lock, Stock, and Two Smoking Barrels.

So...in a way it's simply homage.

See, you guys are kinda treating me like I'm saying this stuff shouldn't be allowed to exist.  And I've repeatedly said that's not what I believe- but I am disappointed that a lot of people felt it was worth millions of dollars to make, and I'm further disappointed that a ton of people seem to love it.

But to be honest with you, there will always be stuff like there.  The games industry will always produce stuff like GTA, just like the music industry will always produce stuff like Korn, just like the movie industry will produce stuff like Triple X.  And it'll be popular, it's nothing new.

(btw Sairon, please note that I referred to assaulting random people on the street with a chainsaw as being just as low brow as beating people with a dildo- the dildo is just the best example, in my mind, because it's the most ridiculously vulgar)

But really, I'd be much happer if the games industry would just do a fucking better job of protecting itself if it wants to produce this kind of shit.  I know it will never, ever happen, but imagine if people developed a content scale.  Parents could pick one up and attach it to the console, and select certain settings (drug and alcohol content, Allow All, Allow Alcohol, Allow None, for instance, then you can have a Violence meter, a Sexuality meter, Profanity, etc).  Where possible, creators can swap in a new line to still allow content (a briefcase of drugs becomes a briefcase of illegal guns if violence is allowed but drugs are not, if neither are allowed then creators could even have some fun with what's in the briefcase... "high illegal snickerdoodle cookies" pops into my head for some reason... or they could just never say what's in the briefcase).

Naturally, some content would be entirely blocked by this- such as the "fuck your girlfriend" minigame in GTA.  They could attach to this device, then, a % score that will show how much of the game you're blocking.  As a parent, if your setting are blocking 50% or more of the game, you might consider returning it.

But that requires parents actually do something and learn about what their kids are being involved with (even though they'd only have to do it once with this system, that's still probably too much).  It requires some more expenses on the part of the developers as they record alternate, censored lines.

omg imagine, in the future, they could make the console add-on that stores these settings portable, and you could go with your kid to the video game store, and there would be a barcode on the boxes, and you could scan it and see how much of the game you'd be blocking, so you'd know RIGHT AWAY if the game was okay for your kid!  Man, the future will be awesome.

But seriously.  If nothing else, this would mean that developers/retailers aren't actively punished for enforcing the ratings system (as it is, the temptation to just forget and sell that game to that kid is certainly there- you don't get anything if you don't sell it, but if you do sell it you get moneys).  This also gives the industry something to point at and say "Look, if your kid is experiencing content you don't like, you should be using this to fix that.  We've given you the tools, you have to be the parent and use them."

But it will never happen.  So either you're the kid who doesn't have GTA because his mommy and daddy won't let him, or you have it and you're learning about the birds and the bees from your playstation.  And parents, halfway negligent bastards that they are, will find out weeks later when the kid says something they shouldn't have said, and they'll rage and scream, and give more ammunition to Jack Thompson, who will rage and scream at developers, who (along with their fans) get more pissed off and defensive and find themselves more enthusiastic about revenge-fantasy-type material, making progressively more violent games (but really, can we get much more violent than we are now?), and on, and on, and on.

(http://abacus.best.vwh.net/oro/oro2.gif)

Sweet.

Or maybe I'm just out of my fucking mind.  You know, either way.

Eh...My only advice is that you should save your disappointment for, say, the Postal series. If anything.

I tried to read through your post 3 times, and you know, I still can't figure out what any of it has to do with GTA. You're attacking the wind, man. If GTA was a movie, you'd be ashamed of yourself for everything you just said (and if you wouldn't: Then I'd be ashamed for even giving you the time of day).

[edit]

Some things to get out of the way:

It's not a "Naughty" Simulation. Get that idea out of your head. First and foremost, it's an action/adventure game, with a pretty far reaching story (Not even all about "Gangstas", contrary to popular belief. Hell, it's got Peter Fonda and David Cross in it, for crissakes!!!).

The sex is more tame than ANYTHING you'd see even in a PG-13 film.

The violence is....Well...No more violent than any other action game.

I'd be more worried about how it influences kid's habits in DRIVING than it does their view of prostitutes and beating people across the head with dildos.

If GTA was a movie it would have been a motherfucking Spike Lee Joint and had hidden morals. Seriously, man .

Oh, or it could be an Uwe Boll movie and destroy everything Rockstar loves.

Maybe LL Cool J could battle Vin Diesel for South Hollywood with the script being done by the guy who did Closer.

I'M LINING UP NOW.

Really, not much of the story has much to do with "Urban/Gangsta" stuff (but then again, nothing Spike Lee writes has anything to do with that either). The first part touches on it the most, but from there it opens up to all kinds of things. And even then, the gangsta stuff is just a way of setting up Sam Jackson's (corrupt cop) character and CJ's relationship with him more than anything else.

I wish games, in general, were less violent.  I wish there were more games not based around beating the living shit out of something- but maybe that's a product of trying to tell a story.  No conflict, yadda yadda.  Not many compelling stories out there that don't have a single punch thrown through the whole thing.  Then again, most compelling stories don't have limbs being ripped off.  Most.

That's not something I'm willing to put on the games industry, though.

Just ignore me.  I seem to be living in the first act of Adaptation right now.  I'm sure I'll come out of it eventually.

For fun, the best stories in gaming I've seen:

Planescape Torment - obviously The Nameless One has been through....a lot - and while not graphical - the game was extremely violent.
Deus Ex - mass engineered plague. Yea, that qualifies.
Indigo Prophecy - Ritual Murder
God of War - Nuff said.
(the premise of) Osamu Tezuka's Blood Will Tell - if you've played it, you'll know what I mean.
Digital Devil Saga - the story, while not executed perfectly, was brilliant. I'd compare it to something but it would ruin the story.

You see what I'm getting at.

That games are violent?  Sure.  Even good games with good stories.

My point was:  Why are we so reliant on that violence to tell a good story?

It's not just games here.  But like I said: maybe I'm just living in the first act of Adaptation right now.  Just ignore me.

Heh, I guess you might not like Indigo Prophecy then  :-D.

As for violence:

Buttons like to be pushed is all I can say.

Good stories without violence don't have much to control. They're made into comedies, romance, and drama MOVIES.

Edit: Yes, I too can name a lot of stories in gaming that aren't violent but are good. But I can name about 50x that number that involve at least mild violence.

I'm talkin' out of my ass about Indigo Prophecy (because I haven't played it), but I thought my Adaptation joke would have been funny at least to you, Schild.  :?

Seriously though, am I off base there? I'm goin' by the box description.

Indigo Prophecy doesn't lose all narrative or pull a 180 for the second half of the game. It all ties back to the beginning. Adaptation did something different and arguably more interesting. But it's ok, I see what you thought was happening.

Err...We're both talking about Donald's screenplay, not Charlie's, right? Because that is what I was referring to.

Just thought it'd be funny to mention it...Seeing that Llava is in Charlie mode atm.

The Deconstructionist? What? I hadn't even thought that far into it. I was talking about the movie. Indigo Prophecy is NOTHING like the screenplay in the screenplay if that's what you were insinuating. Really, you should just play it. Because it's fucking awesome.

Haha, OK. The whole double identity is what made me think that (though I was still going to buy it anyways).

If you have the money and patience, import Fahrenheit from Europe. Amazon.co.uk should have it. Also, it might have been available in Canada so try Futureshop and the usual suspects for maple goods.

What the difference?

Titties?

That's all I could deduce from this quick, Googled up review (http://www.actiontrip.com/reviews/indigoprophecy.phtml).

On a more general note....What's even more funny is how the review starts off:


Lol, who the fuck are THESE guys (Action Trip)?

* I do like Dostoyevsky, if you recall.....But this is more mind jarring than IGN.

Urk. Yea, the difference is the sex scenes. But adding more to an already short game that doesn't break up the story is ok in my book. Even if it's sex. Of course, Hot Coffee fucked any sex in a game from ever getting an M rating again. Talk about hurting the industry. Fucking Rockstar.

Anyway, they removed it to get the M in America. Made the game shorter. Broke up the story a tiny bit. Fahrenheit only takes about 6-7.5 hours to finish but it's one hell of a movie game.

/cry

6 to 7 hours?

I think I'll wait just a little longer (I do want to play it though). I blow through that kind of length far too quickly (especially an Adventure game) to get my $50 worth.

Don't buy games based on time, buy them based on quality. God of War was only 8 hours. Was it worth it? Yes.

It's beyond me to understand why anyone pays Jack Thompson the slightest attention.

There are THOUSANDS of non-violent games, from point-and-click adventures, via rhythm-action games of various sorts, via puzzlers to simply strange things like the surgery and lawyer sims for the DS. Not to mention Nintendogs.

But they never get the attention they deserve.

And, frankly, one of the main reasons are precisely fucktools like Jack Thompson, who only focus on the violent games, thus in effect telling the teenagers to buy the "forbidden fruit" of violent games. There is no voice telling them to buy SSX3 or Amplitude instead.

By taking the black and white position that there is too much violence in games, Llava contributes his share to this misconception that games are violent. 99% are not.

Stop doing the industry a disservice kthxbye.

Violent games, like other violent media, are widely noticed and widely popular in part because, IMO, violence is a 'broad' gesture, in the sense that stage actors will sometimes exaggerate their movements to convey them to the entire audience.  Put another way, it's easier to tell who the good guys and bad guys are when the bullets start flying.  Thus violent entertainments are popular because they tend to be easily understood, and easily delivered.  This trend is increased in games, where storytelling is still a developing craft.

Eventually games will get storytelling deciphered, at which point this medium will hit people with an emotional load that will make GTA seem like a kids' cartoon.

Edit:  Saw a post about the mod Defamation of Character: A Jack Thompson Murder Simulator (http://www.livejournal.com/users/gamepolitics/107741.html) on Game Politics.  Mildly amusing, and the sort of political satire I'd like to see more of in games.

You do know, of course, that the purple dildo is not easy to get in either of Vice City or San ndreas, don't you? You are of course aware that it's in a somewhat hidden place (the police station showers) in Vice City, and I'm not even sure exactly where the bloody thing is in San Andreas. So you do know that it isn't right out there in the open, and easy to find off the bat? right?

...right?

Er, so is there a necromancy community about that he refers to ?  And is necromancy working as intented ?

This is the D&D argument all over again and, as such, I'm not paying it any mind or giving a fuck about it.

Really.

I propose a game where video games skyrocket in popularity while the violent crime rate drops 32%. (http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/10/17/crime.rate/index.html)

Coming in late to the party but my first response to Jack Thompson is:

Try decaf, assgoblin.

That "game design" may quite possibly be the worst set of ideas for a game, movie, or story ever. I think Serek Dmart just orgasmed at the creation of that, thinking he may be off the hook for the void that is his credentials. Thompson apparently thinks he's clever, or literate or something for referencing Johnathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal" story about eating babies. He might be if the proposal wasn't written as if a 13-year old delinquent hopped up on glue-sniffing and Jolt cola had put it together.

You want to stop violent video games, Jack? Stop violence. There, that's easy. Human nature is to be violent and to revel in that violence. Videogame violence is the id's release.

Because I've missed a week of posting, mostly, I'll just respond as I get to these.


Yep. That's the problem. It isn't that GTA is an adult game, because it quite clearly is to any fucking idiot that reads the back of the box. I am very permissive of what I think it's ok for kids to see, but even I wouldn't want my 13-year old son playing that game. Of course, I'd also turn him away from some movies too.

But beyond all that bullshit, the problem with Rockstar is they don't know when to stop. The whole idea of the parts that Hot Coffee accessed being in a non-A rated game is just retarded. As a game developer, you KNOW where the line is for retailers, and you KNOW that EB/Wal-Mart/et. al. would never have stocked that. So you hid the shit so it would get the M-rating. That's irresponsible and fucking stupid, and it made the industry look worse for it.

GTA is as tasteless and crass as the Sopranos, only the story/characters are not nearly as well-developed. It's the version of the Sopranos you'd make at age 16. It's got all the juicy bits without that parts that make it transcend the boobies and cursing and violence to another level of art. It's the difference between The Big Hit and Good Fellas. One is a cheesy movie that may be perfectly entertaining, but is really not that well-written or filmed, and one is a near-cinematic masterpiece (and I say that not being a fan of Scorsese and liking The Big Hit).

Heh, actually, I think some of the writing is pretty clever. I know where you're going with that though. It is a more juvenile Soprano's for the most part, but some of the stuff (say, Peter Fonda's character for instance...Or the banter on some of the radio stations) are just a little better than what any 16 year old would write. Better than what a lot of video games have really (maybe that isn't saying much though)...

Update. (http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000743063662/)

Penny Arcade donates $10K to the ESA in Jack Thompson's name. (http://www.penny-arcade.com/news.php?date=2005-10-17#2834)

That's exactly why I'm generally inclined to give Rockstar a break.  Their stuff is frequently juvenile and over the top, but it's also generally much more clever than the rest of what's out there, and it pushes the boundaries of the medium.  Purple dildos or no, the GTA series has some of the best writing and voice acting I've ever seen in a video game, not to mention emergent gameplay that doesn't suck.

2 Live Crew isn't making records anymore. Not a good example.

It hurts the industry because we as fans of the industry HAVE to defend the game, which makes us look like people who thirst for blood and death and sex and gore. It makes us look like people only interested in the prurient. It's an easy target for the immature douchebags out there like Thompson, and it doesn't have a socially redeemable message or really anything to the story.

Like gangsta rap.

I've been using the word "emergent gameplay" a lot as well, but here's my definition:

Running around in a single player world in a non-linear fashion with at most one friend, doing nothing. Birthed by Grand Theft Auto III and later seen in other games, this sort of gameplay is conducive to nothing more than wasting time. Time that could have been spent playing better, more interesting games.

If I want nearly the exact same sort of "Emergent gameplay," I'll play a MMOG. As I said before, the bad taste far outweighs the good it's done to the industry. I don't see what's confusing there. Thompson picked a good target. Unfortunately he's positively mad.

Edit: Stopping. Haemish already touched on my next point. We can't defend GTA. Impossible.

I have more fun running around in GTA doing nothing in particular than I do with the vast majority of more "goal-oriented" games.  I suspect that's my 88% Bartle Explorer quotient acting up, though.  If they ever made a working GTA MMOG nobody would ever hear from me again.

Anyone who likes the game that much should be forced to live in Prince George's County or Hyattsville, MD for a year. Seriously. We'll see how much you like GTA after that, whitey.

For the same reason they like FoxNews, or those tabloid POS papers at the grocery store, or heavy metal. He's loud and obnoxious and he says something that some part of some people agree with despite any use of logic to the contrary. He also demonizes a segment of the population that some people are really nebulous about, and he takes their nascent distrust and dislike of that segment of the population and gives them an easy, bullet point sound bite that explains what it is these people don't like about these other people.

People already think of gamers as smelly deviants who revel in weird shit they have no idea about. Thompson simply explains what that weird shit is in the simplest, most extreme concepts imaginable so that people don't have to find out the truth for themselves.

San Antonio

Is just like Compton


Heh...Maybe you're too young for DJ Quik. I dunno.  :-P

As for Samwise, I think he lives in Compton actually. Right Sam?

No, but the neighborhood I grew up in had gangs, violent crime, and crackhouses.  Is that close enough?

I think that was a fairly ballsy thing for PA to do.  I'm actually impressed.  They take on Jack with more aplomb than they did Harlan.


As to the GTA - Meh.  They are good games.  They push boundaries.  I do think that San Andreas, however, was far too derivative to be a great game and far too close to the edge to be clever.

But all that really means is while I played the fuck out of the first two, I haven't even got by the first housebreaking mission in SA.

Okay, I think we can agree that this one went way wrong on Jack here, since he is at this point reduced to going "It was a joke!  Don't you people know a joke when you hear one!?!"  With the obvious reply being, "You're the joke, Jack."

But I also think that this points out how little Thompson understands games, as both art and business.  As art, it isn't just the shittiness of his 'design', or, as business,r his failure to understand that $10K is chump change in the industry today.  It is his perception that games are an entirely top down thing, composed of big companies using marketing and glitz to push out drek to rake in cash.  Certainly there is too much of that, but there are also wellsprings of creativity and a back and forth of ideas involving smaller projects like game mods and flash games, both of which answered his challenge, as well as a community of common thought and concern.  These answered his idiocy more quickly and agilely than I think he ever expected, because Thompson thinks that the game industry is only companies and victims.

Like so many fanatics, Jack Thompson has dehumanized his opponents.  He has mistaken human beings for fanbois.  It is hardly surprising, since so many times the community makes the same mistake about its members, but it is still a mistake, as Jack Thompson has demonstrated, to his loss.

Violence is easy to program for.

Kids, it's time to put to use your well honed sniping skills.

I'm only going to say this one more time :  I want a cop killing murder simulator.

Please.  Everyone else seems to have one...

I like the line about them "rolling into starbucks." Obviously that's after they roll down the street to participate in some cop killing.

The fact no one has killed Jack Thompson proves there's no justice in this world.

Just to hammer home my point about GTA:

Defending GTA is like defending furries. Sure, they may have a right to do it, but eventually you have to hold hands with a guy who probably fucked another person dressed as a ferret last night.

Nothing would make Jack Thompson happier than to be killed by an irate gamer.  He'd be more credible as a dead martyr than as a live lunatic.

In fact, if he were to die a violent death, my money would be on a suicide accompanied by a note saying "I R A GAMER AND I KILLED JACK THOMPSON LOLZ".

For a lawyer, JT seems to have an awfully tentative grasp of the legal system.  What law, exactly, entitles a private citizen to send a letter to the local police department to have people rounded up and arrested in reponse to unproven allegations?

Guys like Jack go into law for the same reason guys like WUA frequent game boards.

Which is....?

That doesn't answer the question, man!

Yeah, you've confused me there too.

But nice avatar.

Pity it's not Raging Douchebag Week.  That would've been a winner.

Heh by which I mean guys like Thompson became lawyers so they can dirtball waitresses and other service related industry folks.  It's all about finding a small enough pond until one is finally the biggest frog.  These types of folks are driven by the insecurity and lack of self-esteem, hence why appeals to their sense of decency simply make them worse.

Possibly.  But his hair looks fantastic.

That picture looks like Jon Stewart after he's stared into the dead lights.

I also thought it looked like Jon Stewart in a wig.  It's the face he's making.

It reminds me of Dr Claw (from Inspector Gaget. Yes you never saw his face, but the action figure that was released looks like him).

Because the gamepad interface is really taking over the firearms industry. Good thing it also simulates my lock-on capabilities or I'd have to go to my old keyboard- and mouse-driven rifle. Whattadouche. Someone needs to get a copy of America's Army on this guy's desk, stat.

As for GTA, I love the franchise, it's a very fun game. Plays better than the overwhelming majority of crap dumped onto the EB shelf. Even my somewhat uptight (well, compared to me..) girlfriend likes the game alot. She likes the open gameplay, the humor, and the soundtrack.

If you don't like it, you are free to say as much, I guess. I'd recommend just shutting your trap and playing something else, but that's me.

Wait, they released an action figure that shows his face? WTF!?!

It was for the movie.  You saw Dr. Claw's face in it, and he had an actual claw instead of a metal-clad forearm.  Kids today are stupid, you know, and wouldn't understand if we weren't literal.

Priceless.  Today waz a gud day.

Jack Thompson has officially been wanged. (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20051019-5458.html)

This just means he's show up on CNN talking about how "the video game industry" is persecuting him to stop "the truth" from getting out.

Ownage.

Yeah, but it's going to sting a bit to have the tagline under him read "Jack Thompson, Ex-Attorney".  :-D

Penny Arcade is "video game-themed"?

Seriously, this is some of the best news I have read lately.  I fucking hate that fucking fucker.

When it's not ego-fueld angst, I'd certainly call it video-game themed. I don't see the problem.

Indeed: If you ignore the comic strips for a second and consider what they write, they generally write about video games (in particular XBox games, what with their frequent visits to Microsoft et al) or PAX. Definitely a theme going there.

Actually, that article doesn't say he's under investigation.  It merely says that complaints were forwarded to the committee, which probably happens to every complaint received.

Yup.  From Wikipedia:


The man likes to bully.

I just like to see similar bullshit complaints thrown against him, whether the FBA is investigating him or not. It's ownage in the same way as an "IN YOUR FACE!"

I've already placed an order for my "Pixelante (http://www.straightloop.com/)" shirt.

Hm... looks like GamerGod had an interview with Jack (http://www.gamergod.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=344), which might have been an interesting read, but it's been pulled from their site.  Wonder if he came off bad in it and threatened to sue?

If Gamergod pulled an interview because they got threatened by Thompson, they'd have to be filed in the pussy bin.

Which is the smelly one right next to the recycle bin...