f13.net

Come see how bad the points are skewed! (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/pvp/index.html?realmSelect=true)

Hey, I like it.

All blizzard games have had an online ranking system.

It would be better if CPs weren't so badly diluted by raiding, and bonuses from repeated capture the flag games weren't so extreme. WSG grinding for the win.

Those numbers at the high end scare me.  Do they do anything but grind the BG's?

Nope. CP grinding is a timesink that makes the time requirements of top end raiding look like a complete joke.

Eh, you can have people powerPVP your guy around the clock, 24X7 for $40 a day. Literally. I'm thinking of doing it, 'cause a Field Marshal weapon would help me keep aggro and stuff. Plus it would make my penis bigger.

I have decided that Honor is a total waist of my time. And the CP grind is total bullshit. Im going to try and get the top of the DK list now.

lol Morph.

I don't really care for honor points or CP's.  I do it for the fun.  And then check my stats afterwards because I'm a dirty stat whore.

I take great pleasure in knowing that not only am I not on the list, the lowest ranked rogue on my server is named Voldemort.

NAMING POLICY 4 TEH WIN!

Inpsirado is ranked!

A friend of mine who was the first rank 14 on my server would play AV for probably between 60 and 100 hours a week. Every week. For about 4 months straight.

Fuck that. I have much better shit to do with 1000 hours of my time.

And you call this person your Friend? For shame!


EDIT:  :lol:

Fix that for myself.

my guild currently holds the top 2 slots in Tichondrious, and has 4 in the top 20.

From what i know, those two rank 14 people dont spend an inordinate amount of time in AV (they are mainly there to get faction with frostwolf) they are just REALLY damn good at pvp, and also know how to milk the system (its pathetically easy to make 400k cp a day if you always whoop the other teams ass.)

Actually, there's something of an exploit according to one of my guildmates.

We're on proudmoore and he says at one of the guys in the top 3 exploits with his paladin using Divine Intervention. Something about dying, then running through the gate, then reviving. I dunno, I'll have to ask him again how the guy did it.

Pissed my friend off. He's been busting his ass trying to get up high enough to start getting PVP armor to fill in the greens.

If you kill yourself before the game starts (warlocks can do it too) you can move over to the gy and get rezzed and run to the other base before the game has started.  Fixed next patch.

Since its based on a curve, its different for each server. From what I hear mine is one of the more active PVP servers, also its very balanced with Horde and Alliance.

And please, tell me how you make 400k cp a day. Thats killing an avarage of 4000 people a day, solo. Or if your winning AVs thats winning around 30 AVs a day. Or winning WSG 200 times.

Yeah, I was thinking that 400k figure was a bit wonky, too.

Iim thinking it works out to winning 10 or so AV a day, plus killing everyone inside over and over and over again.  On our server, this isnt terribly hard to do, since the alliance has maybe one or two even remotely good AV guilds (Other then one Asian guild who practically lives there.  Our AV regulars and their friends go in, totally destroy the opposition (or just AFK out and re queue if they come up against said good alliance guilds) and rinse/repeat.

From what they tell me, it isnt unusual for them to have nearly to have nearly won an AV match in around 30-45 minutes flat, or sometimes faster.

All in all, its better to avoid the known good guilds and steamroll the disorganised pickup groups, simply because they can get that much faster turnover on starting a new BG, rather then fighting a stalemate / push-shove match for multiple hours.

They also usually monitor the AV instances.  If Tough to Beat alliance guild is in AV1, everyone just queues for AV2.  If said alliance guild has nearly won their BG, chances are, the next one that comes up is going to be them Queueing in for the next round, so should be avoided.

There is actually a fairly decent method to the madness of CP farming the Battlegrounds.

And just so you dont get the wrong idea, we arent the only people that AFK out of the instances.  Guildies tell me repeatedly of starting an AV instance and having half the Alliance players immediately dissapear off the scoreboard in the first 4 minutes of play.

They really really REALLY need to install a penalty on your queue time for AFKing out. It's just fucking horseshit, I don't care what your BS reasoning is.

umm, why? I mean its not like you couldnt just, oh, you know, Walk back to the instance door and manually exit and then requeue.  /afk to get out just saves you a few seconds.

This is the kind of bullshit that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

There is no "right idea" about that shit.

No, no, you miss my point. In places like WSG, there is no "walking out the door", which is where the majority of this happens. I think there should be a time limit in WSG of ten minutes where you just can't leave. No matter what. That would solve a lot of the problems. You wanna leave after ten minutes? Fine, at least you had to TRY and play the game.

AV is just a larger example of this behavior. It's the attempt to circumvent the game in favor of mindless stomping. And you know what? It defeats the fucking purpose of even playing the game in the first place. It's like constantly picking fights with cripples for their lunch money, and then when you finally get challenged, running away like a little bitch. Then it's back to cripple-farming! You'll be the leader of the PvP ranks for sure, douchebags!

Edit, in response to the previous post:

I can somewhat see your point.  However, the flipside is also true.  Its human nature to chose the easiest/most effiecient method to acchieve your goals.

If your goal is to win the Battleground, and you want to do this as often as possible, it would stand to reason that you would simply forefit the match versus a difficult or evenly matched opponent and seek out easier prey rather then spend 4 or 5 times as long for the same reward.   And that IS what they are doing, every time they forefit a match to the Difficult team, the other side is probably going to win that AV, they are simply letting the difficult guys keep themselves tied up in a different instance.

Can you HONESTLY tell me that if you ended up queued into Alterac valley, and when you ran into your opponent, they were UBER GUILD XXX who you IMMEDIATELY knew were either going to stomp you into the ground or keep you tied up in a 5+ hour never ending AV match, that you wouldnt consider leaving at the earliest oppertunity and getting into another AV instance where you might stand a chance?

They aren't leaving because they can't win, they are leaving because it's not timely and efficient to win in that fashion. In essence they don't care about winning, they care about speed. It's a self-defeating game. It essentially boils down the playing experience to pure meaningless PvP in favor of challenge, strategy, and superior teamwork. And the funny part is that it's easily fixable by removing /afk, penalizing queue reentry times for people that engage in it, or simply stripping points away.

The problem is it's turning what should be an enjoyable gaming experience into an exploitive, soul-destroying grind. Heaven forbid we actually have a competitive game of AV.

Fuck honor. Right in the ass.

but thats the entire problem. No one WANTS compedative AV.  They want fast and easy AV. Its just that simple.

A: Good group of AVers VS Good Group of AVers = 4 or 5 hour game for XXX CP / YYY Faction

B: Good Group of AVers VS Poor Group of AVers = 1 hour game for slightly less CP and probably a lot less Faction

However, if you can repeat  scenario B 4 times for every A, then no one is really going to want to do A for anything other then E-Peen waveing contests which will likely be mutually arranged between the 2 guilds/groups in question inbetween bouts of scenario B.

All of a sudden, I have no urge to go back to WoW for any PVP. Ever. Congrats.

It is probabbly becaue WoW screwed the pooch by putting emphasis on PvP for Shiney Loots, rather then PvP for Fun and Challenge.  Or something like that.

Strangely, Blizzard/WoW isn't what upset me. Funny that.

This sort of plays right into my cripple-kicking analogy earlier. Bravo.

No one wants competition? I can certainly tell you I remember the handful of well-fought scrappy games I've played in the Battlegrounds over the fucking PARADE OF MONOTONY that your PvP visionaries seem to endorse. You seem not to get it at all. It's a game. You know, for fun? That's exactly what this behavior does. It makes it not fun. I can't be clearer than that.

If its any consolation, I get most of this second hand through Guildchat.  I myself dont PvP much, have been in WSG once and AV like 3 times.  My highest rank ever is rank 4 (which I acchieved when 4 was the weekly cap and you couldnt even GO higher) and I have sence slipped down to almost dropping back to rank 2.

Hell, most of my PvP is usually small group stuff around Kargath / BRM when running to or from BRM or Thorium Point.

Honour system and PvP instances for "leet epix" really killed PvP in the game for me.

Paelos, you misunderstand me somewhat.  I understand you completely.   I realise you want fun, challenging, tactical PvP.  I wouldnt mind it too.  The problem is, 90% of the active WoW PvP community doesent share your vision. 

The problem is that for most of them, fun PvP is NOT their top priority.  Their top priority is "The Unstoppable Force" epic hammer, or whatever other shiney is waiting at the end of their grind.  And they will do anything in their power to min/max their time/cp/faction to get it.

You may not like it, I may not like it, but its the truth.  To them, Scenario B > Scenario A every time, regardless of how much more challenging/stimulating/rewarding Scenario A may usually be.

Im just the messenger.  Please, dont point that thing at me.

I'm well aware why they do it. I just don't approve.

Finally we agree on the faults of WoW PvP.

The first problem is, as others have noticed, that the whole purpose is in the personal advancement (http://www.cesspit.net/drupal/node/888).
The second problem is that the system lacks of persistence. So reasons to fight for and so the actual "conflict".

As I wrote on my website, the players learnt and discovered the actual pattern offered by the game. It isn't the conflict, it isn't the war. It is just the carrot-on-a-stick. (and, in fact, the honor rewards are the only persistent element of the PvP)

As always the players narrowed the shortest route to reach the carrot. Which is about AVOIDING the conflict.

(also because PvP in WoW is about "Players Vs Time" (http://www.cesspit.net/drupal/node/883), so everyone needs to quickly run through the process to maximize the effect and they cannot just enjoy a 10-hours Alterac BG. You may have fun, but you aren't going anywhere if you don't optimize the time)

With MMOG's, it's usually a race to see who completely fucks up the game worsest firstest, the player community or the developers.

On Earthen Ring, AV lasts for 8 or more hours and ends when the Horde runs out of catass reinforcements and loses enough numbers to let the Alliance win. The one time the Horde had an effective commander (who I suspect has gone back to playing his Alliance character), we crushed the Alliance in a couple of hours. If you knew the depth of faction imbalance (numbers, equipment, guild sizes) on ER, you'd understand how significant that is. People like to bitch about Alliance drama on ER, but the sad fact is that the Horde just don't play together well. As well as having an edge in maturity, the Horde also appear to have the edge in elitism and narcissism.

WSG is of course exactly as Torvald describes it in the post referenced by HRose.

I guess thats the difference. My server is very balanced, and there are a bunch of really good horde and alliance guilds. Winning one AV usually takes 4 to 6 hours. Also, due to deminishing returns, the majority of players stop giving honor after an hour or so. If you are in a raid group, more like in 15 or 20 minutes. Which is why no one really wants to group there. Which is counter productive.

They really need to remove diminishing returns for AV. That way, there will be two or 3 raid groups, and a lot more coordination, and more healing.

More than 1 AV instance.  Out of everything discussed, this is what blows me away the most. 

The honor ranking stuff, along with the testimonials from the people at the top, makes me reluctant to return to WoW and PVP once I get back from my long vacation (current subscription ran out due to having to change CC cards due to identity theft, yay).  I know 4 of the top 15 horde side from my old guild.  The top guy is a really efficient rogue (guy rarely ever dies) who spends about every waking hour outside of raiding running WSG or AV.  The other 3 guys are mega-catasses.  One guy is a hunter that basically had never missed a raid and had an obscene amount of DKP.  The other 2 you can basically count on to be playing 24/7.  Both have 3+ lvl 60 characters a piece.  It's sick.  Even if I was king badass, I would never be able to keep up with that.

Note: Heh, looking at these scores, my server sure doesn't appear like they PVP a lot.

You are simply playing different games.

The type who /afk outta AV or WSG aren't playing what you are playing.  You log in to play a match of CTF, you enjoy it and want to win it.  Winning a long difficult match is more satisfying then a short easy one.

The people who /afk out at the first sign of a real challenge aren't playing CTF or AV.  They are playing Point-Farm.  The goal of Point-Farm is to have the most points, and CTF or AV are simply a means to an end.  After analyzing what behaviors give the most points from said battleground per unit of time, those behaviors are adherred to with religeous devotion, because the whole point-farm game is graded on a curve...

In trueth, Point-Farm has NOTHING to do with alliance vs horde, it is intra-factional.  Thier is nothing inherently wrong with this, except that Point-Farm directly conflicts with those who want to play WSG or AV.

I can't see a way to seperate the two types of players (maybe i lack creativity).  No amount of que penalties or other bullshit slap-your-hand-fixes will address the core problem.  In fact, if the que penalty for /afk were severe enough, Point-Farm might require simply allowing the opposing team to grab the flag 3 times, rather then leaving and perhaps allowing more willing participants to zone in and take thier place.

We regularly have 2-3 AV instances up on Tichondrious, and on a busy weekend will steadily hit 3-4

Maybe this is why PvPing in Ashenvale was mroe fun than the BGs;

In the BGs, people are there to run up points. Also, Alliance on Moonrunner was a bunch of fucktards, and I've never personally seen a win. Also, I hate playing against Mass Shamen teams.

In Ashenvale, people are PvPing just for its own sake.

And it was FUN.

My guild recently decided to do a drunken raid on the Zep platform near Org to try and see how long we could hold it.

We made it about 15 minutes and 50 kills, but it was fun as anything.

Remove honorable kills from BGs (up honor bonuses if needed), give a honor penalty for leaving a BG, make sure losing is still decent enough honor, and give bonus honor based on the overall honor of the opposing team. People will still go for the easiest way, but when the easiest way is to try and win every game you enter, never leave a BG once you start it, and actually be happy to come across an A-Team I wont really care.

That would drive people insane if you took out kills as part of PvP. Penalties might help, but I think scaling bonus honor for longer games is a better idea. If you win a game in ten minutes, obviously you didn't meet much opposition. You could argue then that people would just prolong games to get more honor then. So even then people would game the system there too.

No, the only way you get good games is to have an installed time limit on both sides, high and low. If you leave before five minutes, you lose points. If you don't have a conclusion by thirty minutes, the game goes to the team most ahead in flags, kills, or whatever you may have. Obviously, I mean this for WSG. And for heaven's sake, scale back bonus honor for winning in the short BGs like WSG and the new one coming out. Give us a damn incentive for actually queuing up in AV.

On high pop servers its AV running 24/7 and no wsg games.  You can get 10k honor for a 30 min win in AV vs 1.6k honor for a 10 min in WSG.  AV definitely gives alot more bang for the buck on servers that can support it, increasing it won't help anything.  We didn't have AV for weeks at a time on my server, people don't queue because they don't think one will start.  Then someone decided to cordinate with the other faction to get people to queue simultaneously almost every day and games began to start by themselves.  Now people queue on their own because they expect a game to happen everynight, as opposed to queueing for 20 hours a not seeing a game for weeks.

Problem is that the game can't tell if you're playing the "right" way or just to farm points.  If you take away honor from kills, people won't have a reason to fight.  If you reward people for sticking around when they loose, you can combine those, and have your entire team of ten stand around the flag room and wave as a parade of cheetahs whisk away your flags.  Congratulations, you just earned 500 (or whatever) honor, the exact same amount as if you had been in some complex, back and forth battle and lost by only one point after three hours of play.


Yeah, that's about as good a system as I can think of, but even with timed rewards there are issues.

As long as the game is a means to an end, rather than an end of itself, people are going to try to find ways around it.  If you put in timed rewards for the BGs, before the week was out, you'd see analyses of time invested/points recieved, so players would know exactly when to throw the game.  Take away points for winning a game in under ten minutes, and I bet you fifty bucks you'd start seeing the winning team turtle up in their flag room with the runner to wait out the timer, and cap their last point at 10:01.

The problem is not that, the problem is that the game mechanics want you to farm and *not* to fight. That's the point. It's not that the players do not play correctly, IT'S THE OPPOSITE. The players play the game exactly as it was intended: farm the points in the most efficient way.

That's what games in general are about. There's a situation and you try solve it the best you can, hoping to have fun in the process.

PvP in WoW is a ladder system to catass to obtain personal rewards. The players have found the most efficent way to go there.

The players jusr revealed that WoW STILL HAS NO PvP. Because there is absolutely NO REASON TO FIGHT. Beside wasting time in the name of the "fun".

Last I checked, that's the definition of ANY game EVER made.

No, no, no.  This is an online game, it's about replacing your shitty real life, measuring e-peen and proving to the rest of the game population how leet you are and that everyone in High School was a punk and didn't know what they were talking about when they called you a loser! THEY were the losers! It's THEY who suck. ALL OF THEM! FUCK YOU BILLY, SHE NEVER LOVED YOU! I'M THE HERO!! **I'M THE HERO, DAMNIT!!**

Or at least that's what I've gathered from the last 8 years of message boards/ usenet.

I stand firmly corrected.

That's what Hrose is talking about. Not enough people care about intangibles like fun.

Can you wear fun? Can you link it? Is it purple?

As long as you play with young teenagers... aren't you going to be forever in that "e-peen" measurement scheme ?

Although I was doing it tongue-in-cheek, that was my exact point. It's not just because there's teenagers, however.  Some of the most egocentric pricks older males with 'something to prove'.  What this accomplishes in an online game, I have no idea, but the mindset is there and all competative measures are steeped in it.

IT IS YOU WHO ARE THE BALLLICKERS!

ER AV doesn't have this problem.  It tends to only launch on Thursday through Sunday, and usually only once per those days.  The battles are fairly even and usually last about 4 hours.  I wasn't aware other servers were treating it as a grind.  I hope it doesn't catch on here, because it sounds like total shit.

Your time scaling idea would probably fix much of the problem in AV.  Four hours could be the target for AV, and if a game is over in only 30 minutes, they only gain 1/8th of the honor.  If the game lasts for eight hours, they get double the honor.  This is more appropriate to AV than WSG, obviously, as the faster WSG is over, the better the winning team was over their competition.

As far as min and max time limits, that would probably be better suited for a future battleground.  It looks like Blizzard plans to have different goals for each BG, and having a 30 minute long fragfest would probably be a lot of fun.  As far AV, I think that the longer it lasts, the better, because it implies that the sides were evenly matched.  If a hot contest ended because an arbitrary time limit expired, it would be very dissapointing.

The population balance on the BG should also be taken into account.  When one side outnumbers the other by nearly 2 to 1, they should get far less points for HKs, and perhaps give bonus points to the outnumbered side for putting up a good fight rather than just Hearthing out to jump into the next queue.  Maybe the outnumbering side should be prevented from entering too deeply into the outnumbered side's territory until they gain more players.  On my server, the Alliance usually does this on its own by skirmishing with them in the Field of Contention but not taking any points of interest until more Horde arrive.  I doubt this practice is widespread on other servers, though, from what I'm hearing.

Haha, no. Just left an AV where we had contested their north bunker before they hit 30 players.

This always seems to me to defeat the purpose.  Doing that shit just means that the horde will, er, leave.  (at least on our server).

Bang goes any HKs or CPs for the night.

AV and WSG suck.  I loved them at the start, but then it became clear, as many have already stated, that the meta-game of farming had started which made it, er, not so fun.

(Post may contain understatement.)

Gee, you think?

Random PvP in Ashenvale and Barrens FTW.

All you people dicking around with lowbie alts on the new servers might like to know that Arathi Basin is hella good fun.

Its simple - there are five resource nodes, four points on a diamond, one in the middle, unequal terrain such that each boundary node has a short route to an adjacent boundary node and a long route to the other. Control of a node cause it to tick up resources. First team to 2000 resources wins, so if it averages even just one node per side with three in flux and turnover nearly all the time, its still game over in a little over a half hour. Nobody can turtle in a graveyard and stall, and battles can't go back and forth all night.

Somebody will find a way to fuck it up in due course, but its proving to be a lot of fun now.

Cool, we'll no doubt try it out in a few levels :p

So Arathi Basin is essentially Unreal's Onslaught mode without vehicles?

No. Onslaught required you to assault a base, and the nodes were just stepping stones to that goal. I like to think of AB as King of the Hill, only with multiple hills.

I would play BG more often if there were voice emotes of "HEADSHOT" and "RAMPAGE".

I am tired of yelling at my screen while playing.